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The Biggest Obstacle in Tamil Brahmin marriages-HOROSCOPE matching

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Dear Matching horoscope before wedding may be our tradition. But I know some of my friends and relatives do this after their children have decided to marry of their own are already married seems to be a new trend. If the spouse is of different religon or nationality ஜாதகம் கணிச்சு பொருத்தம் பாக்கரா. They feel or see no contradiction here. மனப்பெருத்தம் has already over ruled any other consideration. This exercise is purely academic and the elders keep the Josiers opinion to themselves and think of any possible பரிகாரம் if பெருத்தம் is not found. I feel this is a harmless act of the parents based on their concern for their children Jambu:nod:
 
....examples are there in both websites,for those interested to know,how it works.

NN, I don't think any reasonable person will accept these web sites as unbiased and scientifically rigorous. If you have any information that is verified scientifically please furnish that.


It is from the same ancient Brahmana, iii. 4.4 :—
" The sun neither ever sets nor rises. When people think he sets he only turns himself round, after reaching the end of the day, and makes day above and night below.
I took a look at this Google book excerpt. The same page where this appears, the following also appears:
This explanation is, however, strongly repudiated in a later Brahmana, the Mantram, which is taken up chiefly with the marriage ritual. There, the bridegroom, in a prayer to the Sun, is made to say :—" Only fools assert that you, Sun, have your other side dark, but I say, you are lighted on either side." Man. Br. ii. 6.
You know, according to Jyothisha shasthra, sun is closer to earth than the moon! I request you not to be swayed by one passage here or there.

I have no problem with anyone believing or following anything. In fact I will support your right to follow what you want to follow. But, fact is fact, truth is truth, and Jyothisham is not part of that, at least the part that purports to predict your future, or tells you auspicious times.

Cheers!
 
nara,
NN, I don't think any reasonable person will accept these web sites as unbiased and scientifically rigorous. If you have any information that is verified scientifically please furnish that.

well,you let me know,how science wants it to be tested.maybe we can come midway.


I took a look at this Google book excerpt. The same page where this appears, the following also appears:
This explanation is, however, strongly repudiated in a later Brahmana, the Mantram, which is taken up chiefly with the marriage ritual. There, the bridegroom, in a prayer to the Sun, is made to say :—" Only fools assert that you, Sun, have your other side dark, but I say, you are lighted on either side." Man. Br. ii. 6.
You know, according to Jyothisha shasthra, sun is closer to earth than the moon! I request you not to be swayed by one passage here or there.

i think,i will do some research for you,to say,how scientifically,our jyotisham hold good.true one single verse is not sufficient,but to give a gist,i quoted it.

I have no problem with anyone believing or following anything. In fact I will support your right to follow what you want to follow. But, fact is fact, truth is truth, and Jyothisham is not part of that, at least the part that purports to predict your future, or tells you auspicious times.

Cheers!

like your style.management gurus teach management techiques,and still companie collapse?aren't they scientifically oriented approach.financial guru predict stocks,and finally end up crashing,depending upon conditions of market.jyotisham is similiar,imo.predictions go awry,but some of the personality traits are so uncannily accurate,even a psychiatrist is dumbfounded.so,for now i stick with traditions despite having an error of calculations by practioners.
 

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this needs scrutiny.as,the navagrahs,in a temple archirecture,clearly demonstrates,as sun,in center,of our solar system ,while the west thot earth was flat.old testament is proof enuff,

The days of the week are not mentioned in the Vedas or old Tamil books like Tolkappiam, or Sangam literature. The earliest reference to the days of the week occurs in Thirunavukkarasar Thevaram.(7th century). He refers to God as the embodiment of the seven days of the week. கொள்ளும் கிழமை ஏழானாய் போற்றி.

Navagraha Worship in temples is of relatively recent origin. Till 11th century, there was no navagraha worship. Kulottunga II of the 11th century installed the idols of the planets on the tower of the temple, not inside the temple. Rajendra III installed only Guru and Sani in the Vikramacholeecharam temple in Tukkachi. It was only after 15th century that the nine planets found a place in the north east of Siva temples. From[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] கபிலக்கல் [/FONT]–[FONT=&quot] குடவாயில் பாலசுப்பிரமணியன் பக் 210.[/FONT]

What is known as Vedanga is astronomy and not predictive astrology. To say that astrology is based on Vedas is misleading the gullible.
 
Navagraha idols installation is definitely a recent phenomenon.

In the old temples, we can see only Sun, Guru sannidhis.

Except at Thiagaraja temple, Tiruvarur, I have not seen Navagrahas in any other ancient Shiva temple. In Tiruvarur temple, all the Navagrahas faces Lord Shiva in single direction meaning they are all worshiping Lord Shiva only.

We cannot see Navagrahas in ancient Vaishnavite temples. But modern Perumal temples have Navagrahas which is against the faith of Vaishnavites.

All the best
 
The days of the week are not mentioned in the Vedas or old Tamil books like Tolkappiam, or Sangam literature. The earliest reference to the days of the week occurs in Thirunavukkarasar Thevaram.(7th century). He refers to God as the embodiment of the seven days of the week. கொள்ளும் கிழமை ஏழானாய் போற்றி.

Navagraha Worship in temples is of relatively recent origin. Till 11th century, there was no navagraha worship. Kulottunga II of the 11th century installed the idols of the planets on the tower of the temple, not inside the temple. Rajendra III installed only Guru and Sani in the Vikramacholeecharam temple in Tukkachi. It was only after 15th century that the nine planets found a place in the north east of Siva temples. From[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] கபிலக்கல் [/FONT]–[FONT=&quot] குடவாயில் பாலசுப்பிரமணியன் பக் 210.[/FONT]

What is known as Vedanga is astronomy and not predictive astrology. To say that astrology is based on Vedas is misleading the gullible.

vikrama

The mantras in navagraha sooktam are all from Veda, but from different
mandalas. They are not consecutive. Mantras extracted from different places in Veda are put together in one place.

http://sanskrit.safire.com/pdf/GRAHA.PDF

Audio Recordings of Sanskrit Texts
 
....well,you let me know,how science wants it to be tested.maybe we can come midway.

NN, I can suggest two methodologies, both must be done to clearly shut the mouth of critiques like me -- (i) a double-blind randomized factorial design study and (ii) a longitudinal study over a long period of time. Responsibility for conducting these tests is that of the practitioners and believers as they are the ones making claims of efficacy.


....management gurus teach management techiques,and still companie collapse?aren't they scientifically oriented approach....
[...].jyotisham is similiar
Forecasting is certainly part of the management tools we teach. We also teach the conditions under which such techniques may offer value, we teach ways of measuring error in forecasting, we teach estimating the level of confidence that can be placed on the forecast. All of this is based on careful statistical analysis. Predictive jyothisham does none of that.

...,imo.predictions go awry,but some of the personality traits are so uncannily accurate,
IMO, this is nothing more than our pattern seeking brains clicking for all the matches and skipping all the non-matches.

Many years ago James Randi conducted an experiment. He asked a class of students to write down some vital details like DOB, POB, etc.. The next day, he came back with predictions for each students by name about their individual personality and characteristics. He asked them to read their prediction and raise their hands if they felt it was accurate. Almost all the class raised their hands. Then, he asked them exchange their "individualized" prediction with someone else in the class and asked them to read it. It turned out he had exactly the same text in all the "individualized" prediction!!!

Predictive astrology is to give some vague shapes and allowing the client to workout the details to arrive at an amazingly and uncannily accurate "individualized" prediction.

BTW, the ancient Indians are not the only ones who were fascinated by the night sky and the movement of the sun. Almost all ancient civilizations followed the movement of heavenly bodies and worked out the paths with amazing brilliance without the the aid of any of the modern tools.

Cheers!
 
nara,

NN, I can suggest two methodologies, both must be done to clearly shut the mouth of critiques like me -- (i) a double-blind randomized factorial design study and (ii) a longitudinal study over a long period of time. Responsibility for conducting these tests is that of the practitioners and believers as they are the ones making claims of efficacy.

responsibility lies also,in how a questioner questions the authority.the claims made by astrological fraternity,says clearly,this is a mystical science.now,science does not have all answere for problems in the world,and mystics in my life have proved consistently,to alleviate the problems faced by humanity.


Forecasting is certainly part of the management tools we teach. We also teach the conditions under which such techniques may offer value, we teach ways of measuring error in forecasting, we teach estimating the level of confidence that can be placed on the forecast. All of this is based on careful statistical analysis. Predictive jyothisham does none of that.

predictive astrology clearly states,the predictions to happen is in the lords domain.now,if you do not believe in lord,we can safely conclude our discussion.

IMO, this is nothing more than our pattern seeking brains clicking for all the matches and skipping all the non-matches.

true.

Many years ago James Randi conducted an experiment. He asked a class of students to write down some vital details like DOB, POB, etc.. The next day, he came back with predictions for each students by name about their individual personality and characteristics. He asked them to read their prediction and raise their hands if they felt it was accurate. Almost all the class raised their hands. Then, he asked them exchange their "individualized" prediction with someone else in the class and asked them to read it. It turned out he had exactly the same text in all the "individualized" prediction!!!

i need to study more about randis attempt,before i can comment further on this.

Predictive astrology is to give some vague shapes and allowing the client to workout the details to arrive at an amazingly and uncannily accurate "individualized" prediction.

BTW, the ancient Indians are not the only ones who were fascinated by the night sky and the movement of the sun. Almost all ancient civilizations followed the movement of heavenly bodies and worked out the paths with amazing brilliance without the the aid of any of the modern tools.

Cheers!

well sir,vague or accurate,is a subjective phenomena.just as i quoted you an example of management gurus,teaching with various scientific techniques,do end up sometimes,as utter failure.when a person is in dire need of comfort,hindu astrlogy,works like a charm.that science also does in its own specialised way.as we are discussing about indian ancient sciences,horoscope matching,is a pertinent tool,to match making,imho.the decision to marry is then left to individuals,and a common sense to understand,jyotisham is a guideline or more like a compass needle showing the direction.beyond that,to write every second of ones life,beforehand is a tedious task,which nadi jyotisham has been done by sages like sukha,agastya,bhrighu...etc.

http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/articles-knrao.htm
 
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planets placing

Samanta’s planet placing
Prahallad Chandra Naik
It is shown in this note that placing of the five naked-eye planets in the Tychonic model of the solar system
envisaged by Samanta Chandra Sekhar, as deciphered from his Siddhanta Darpana, is in agreement with the
well-known Titius–Bode law and even with the more basic Kepler’s third law of modern astronomy. This is a
unique instance in the traditional Indian system and a significant contribution of Samanta. It is also shown
that both in ancient Greek and Indian astronomy, epicycles for solar anomaly (Úîghra phala) give correct
relative distances of planets, which was not realized by the then astronomers because of their geocentric
viewpoint. It is also shown here how Samanta’s estimate of the astronomical unit came out to be of the right
order of magnitude.
 

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The title of this thread the biggest obstacle in Tamil Brahmin marriages - horoscope matching are we holding to this? deviating or already derailed? The question raised Should we retain this practice or discard that? Simple and straight forward answer is not posted till now :yawn: Jambu
 
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The title of this thread the biggest obstacle in Tamil Brahmin marriages - horoscope matching are we holding to this? deviating or already derailed? The question raised Should we retain this practice or discard that? Simple and straight forward answer is not posted till now :yawn: Jambu

The answer is always going to be...:decision: ...it depends entirely on the individuals concerned. It is foolish to even think anybody can prove one way or the other and expect everybody else in the community to blindly follow. :bored:
 
The answer is always going to be...:decision: ...it depends entirely on the individuals concerned. It is foolish to even think anybody can prove one way or the other and expect everybody else in the community to blindly follow. :bored:

Similar situation only forced the Oxford essay tradition to come to this : "Death" see that thread. One sentence from that may be relevant

"An exercise in showmanship to avoid answering the question" Jambu:yawn:
 
Folks, here is a 8:35 minute video clip on astrology by Carl Sagan.

While you are at it, you may also want to watch a much smaller clip of James Randi on the individualized horoscope I wrote about earlier.

Cheers
 
vikrama

The mantras in navagraha sooktam are all from Veda, but from different
mandalas. They are not consecutive. Mantras extracted from different places in Veda are put together in one place.

When Navagaraha worship came into vogue, mantras were taken out from various parts of the veda and navagaraha sooktam was coined. This has been our tradition. In following this we never gave thought to relevance.

For example, there was no worship of Ganapati in Vedic times. But we use the mantra 'Gananam tva Ganapatim' for worship of Ganapati.
In the context where this mantra occurs, this is a prayer to Brahmanaspati which is a variation of Brahaspati. The meaning of the mantra does not mention any of the features peculiar to Ganapati.

The hymn going by the name of Ganesa Sooktam contains 15 verses of which the first 9 are from Rig 8-81, The next 2 are from Rig 2-23 and the last 4 are from Rig 10-112. The middle two are prayers to Brahmanspati and all others are prayer to Indra.

In the same way, Rudram is used for Siva worship though there was no god with the name Siva in the Vedas.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


We all know that worship of Ayyappa is of recent origin, probably after the arrival of Muslims in our country, since Vavar is said to be a friend of Ayyappa. Puranas were written connecting Ayyappa with siva and Vishnu to invest the new god with divinity. Veda mantras are used for worship of Ayyappa now and the Vedic aphorism, 'Tatvamasi' is prominently displayed in the Sannidhanam.

Tomorrow a new god may come to be worshipped. for that also Veda mantras will be used. That does not mean that the god was worshipped in Vedic times.
 
Horoscope matching

Horoscope matching was not there in ancient days as per the Rigveda. Astrology itself was a very late introduction and its popularity was fueled most probably by some stories in the Puranas. As stated in the original post itself, our Indian astrology suffers greatly due to lack of standardization and a sad lack of scientific research to update what already exists in the hoary books. The most tricky part of our system is the "ayanamsa", as people knowing astrology would agree. What we should do is to adopt the "sayana" system and reformulate our predictions in tune with Indian conditions.

If we so do, astrology will be helpful to mankind just like other branches studying human behaviour, like psychology, psychiatry, and say, even economics!

Till recently women in our society were not economically empowered and widow remarriage was prohibited. Hence it was necessary to find out whether a marriage would be long-lasting. (I am not talking of divorce, here.) This was the most important reason for people relying on astrology for want of a better method.

One very experienced jyotsyan of Kerala once told me that he would give prime importance to the long life of the boy, in the case of a brahmin marriage (including namboodiris), whereas for nairs who did permit widow remarriage at least in some areas of Kerala, the matrimonial happiness of the couple should be seen as of the greatest importance.

Things have changed nowadays; divorcees, remarriage of divorcees and even of widows has become common among brahmins also. Brahmin women are also becoming earning members. Then there is the most potent force "kaadal" nurtured by all the media! So, I feel we should not hold horoscope agreement as a condition in cases where the girl and boy like each other and want to marry, as also where the girl has a satisfactory income and we are searching for a boy who will be suitable in all worldly aspects. If something goes wrong later the boy/girl will, any way, have to take it in the stride.
 
vikrama

That does not mean that the god was worshipped in Vedic times.

Vedic times is immemorial.as vedas are apoureshyam.only thru a jatakam,a poorva punya sthanam is calculated in olden days.today science has regression techniques using hypnosis and such like methods,to tap into nano-consciousness of the human psyche.i feel god from imemorial,if veda is pramana,then from vedic times too.

coming to topic,we have a tradition a system in place.those who wish to be traditionalist can be so otherwise new ways of rating dating mating can be deployed,as the beginning of the night,its happiness which matters.

@ Sangom- welcome.It appears like Nacchinarkiniyan has a twin :) enjoying your posts.
 
any direct reply for the title here.....plz

Sri.Swaminathasharma,

Greetings. The topic of this thread had been very well addressed by many members. If not the biggest obstacle, horoscope matching is indeed a considerable obstacle. The trend is not only amoung Tamil Brahmins, but also in many other castes too.

Cheers!
 
I started this thread as an advice to parents of Boys/Girls to think about this. What I have written is based on my experience of about 50 years in arranging marriages of sisters, brothers, cousins, nephews and nieces. Of course not forgetting my own children.

I am sure many more marriages could have resulted in the Swayamvarams if we had done away with Horoscope Matching.

But a word of caution. If you decide not to do it, do it whole heartedly. Not like some people who claim that they do not believe in Horoscope matching and then in the next breath ask you what padam your son's/daughter's star is (to ensure that they avoid the so called dangerous stars like Ayilyam, Moolam etc.).

Remember the old days when we used to see Sakhunam for every action. That is again based on old Sanskrit texts. My father was obsessed with it. How many of us believe in it now? Or see sakhunam now.

There is no winner in this Patti Mandram. There can never be. But if some light has been thrown on the subject, the purpose is served. In many such discussions only heat is generated, but no light thrown.
 
I am sure many more marriages could have resulted in the Swayamvarams if we had done away with Horoscope Matching.

Sharma Sir,

The real problem in the swayamvaram functions is getting girls. Sri Swaminatha Sharma clears all the misgivings relating to the stars like Moolam, Ayilyam etc. He also clears problems realting to Chevvai Dosham etc. Mostly the participants accepts his views.

We are able to help substantial participants but if the particpation of girls is poor, we cannot do anything. There seems to be terrific shortage of girls born in between 1975 to 1985. There is mismatch of supply and demand. Unless it is corrected, we cannot move forward.

Let us discuss the mismatch problem in more detail. We already discussed in these forums that Tamil Brahmin boys can look for other language speaking brahmin girls. May be that can solve the problem in the short term.

Yet another major problem is income mismatch. Girls are studying well and are drawing better salaries as compared to boys. They don't want to marry boys drawing lesser salaries. Personally I have no solution to correct this problem. Only solution I can think off is reversing of rolls at home.

Women literacy and empowerment in the last decade has created lot of social problems at the home front. Now the boys are at receiving end. We can only pity the boys.

Any new suggestion to solve the above are most welcome.

All the best



 
I am sure many more marriages could have resulted in the Swayamvarams if we had done away with Horoscope Matching.

Sharma Sir,

The real problem in the swayamvaram functions is getting girls. Sri Swaminatha Sharma clears all the misgivings relating to the stars like Moolam, Ayilyam etc. He also clears problems realting to Chevvai Dosham etc. Mostly the participants accepts his views.

We are able to help substantial participants but if the particpation of girls is poor, we cannot do anything. There seems to be terrific shortage of girls born in between 1975 to 1985. There is mismatch of supply and demand. Unless it is corrected, we cannot move forward.

Let us discuss the mismatch problem in more detail. We already discussed in these forums that Tamil Brahmin boys can look for other language speaking brahmin girls. May be that can solve the problem in the short term.

Yet another major problem is income mismatch. Girls are studying well and are drawing better salaries as compared to boys. They don't want to marry boys drawing lesser salaries. Personally I have no solution to correct this problem. Only solution I can think off is reversing of rolls at home.

Women literacy and empowerment in the last decade has created lot of social problems at the home front. Now the boys are at receiving end. We can only pity the boys.

Any new suggestion to solve the above are most welcome.

All the best




Thank you, RVR.
 
I am sure many more marriages could have resulted in the Swayamvarams if we had done away with Horoscope Matching.

Sharma Sir,

The real problem in the swayamvaram functions is getting girls. Sri Swaminatha Sharma clears all the misgivings relating to the stars like Moolam, Ayilyam etc. He also clears problems realting to Chevvai Dosham etc. Mostly the participants accepts his views.

We are able to help substantial participants but if the particpation of girls is poor, we cannot do anything. There seems to be terrific shortage of girls born in between 1975 to 1985. There is mismatch of supply and demand. Unless it is corrected, we cannot move forward.


maybe boys shud reach out to other communities,if they are willing.

Let us discuss the mismatch problem in more detail. We already discussed in these forums that Tamil Brahmin boys can look for other language speaking brahmin girls. May be that can solve the problem in the short term.

super idea.

Yet another major problem is income mismatch. Girls are studying well and are drawing better salaries as compared to boys. They don't want to marry boys drawing lesser salaries. Personally I have no solution to correct this problem. Only solution I can think off is reversing of rolls at home.

marriage is a lots of give and take.in this present day and age of equality,both partners have to change roles accordingly,to tune in income to a lifestyle that they aspire.

Women literacy and empowerment in the last decade has created lot of social problems at the home front. Now the boys are at receiving end. We can only pity the boys.

boys are boys.no need to pity them,as they do not want pity.weakness for men/boys is sex.this is used by women/girls to dominate life.the days boys/men go out have a gala time,then women will bow out and do the same.so,now its a juggle going on,like how older generation folks were doing juggling of a different kind.shivanum shakthiyum onru must be taught.

Any new suggestion to solve the above are most welcome.
All the best

just get them married,ppl will know everything.one cannot plan every bit in life.and despite planning many a hit and miss occurs.maturity of thinking is lacking in our community.to become mature,they need to travel the world,is one suggestion.or listen to people who have travelled far and wide.
 
I am sure many more marriages could have resulted in the Swayamvarams if we had done away with Horoscope Matching.

Sharma Sir,

The real problem in the swayamvaram functions is getting girls. Sri Swaminatha Sharma clears all the misgivings relating to the stars like Moolam, Ayilyam etc. He also clears problems realting to Chevvai Dosham etc. Mostly the participants accepts his views.

We are able to help substantial participants but if the particpation of girls is poor, we cannot do anything. There seems to be terrific shortage of girls born in between 1975 to 1985. There is mismatch of supply and demand. Unless it is corrected, we cannot move forward.

Let us discuss the mismatch problem in more detail. We already discussed in these forums that Tamil Brahmin boys can look for other language speaking brahmin girls. May be that can solve the problem in the short term.

Yet another major problem is income mismatch. Girls are studying well and are drawing better salaries as compared to boys. They don't want to marry boys drawing lesser salaries. Personally I have no solution to correct this problem. Only solution I can think off is reversing of rolls at home.

Women literacy and empowerment in the last decade has created lot of social problems at the home front. Now the boys are at receiving end. We can only pity the boys.

Any new suggestion to solve the above are most welcome.

All the best




You have highlighted the ground reality, Sri RVR ji..

I feel guys who could not match themselves with the professional and or monetary status of the girls, should willingly be open to accept other girls who are equal or even lesser in profile comparatively. The qualities of the girls should be taken into account rather than her family status, education and career prospects.., without giving any sort of hardships to the girl's family in arranging her marriage.

I wish in future Swayamwarms, the event should start with giving such suggestions and tips to the participants in a detailed manner besides offering astrological tips and clearing any misconceptions about horoscope matching.
 
You have highlighted the ground reality, Sri RVR ji..

I feel guys who could not match themselves with the professional and or monetary status of the girls, should willingly be open to accept other girls who are equal or even lesser in profile comparatively. The qualities of the girls should be taken into account rather than her family status, education and career prospects.., without giving any sort of hardships to the girl's family in arranging her marriage.

I wish in future Swayamwarms, the event should start with giving such suggestions and tips to the participants in a detailed manner besides offering astrological tips and clearing any misconceptions about horoscope matching.

Ravi,

Sri Sharma is giving detailed lecture at the start of every function. He starts with the misgivings about the so called `10 poruthams'. But parents of boys complain about the salary problems for which we have no answer.

Sri Sharma concentrates mostly on `avoiding divorce' and `sandhana Bagyam' only. Rest of the aspects are only broadly considered. It is a misconception that our Swayamvarams gives too much importance to astrology.

Alliances are brought together in our swayamvarams and it gives jitters to commercial matrimory people. Yesterday I wrote in some other thread that both Sharma and Praveen got threatening calls - It only confirms the success of our programs. More than 1000 people participated in our swayamvarams and more than 100 alliances were brought together in the last eight months from four swayamvaram functions which I feel is a reasonably good achievement.

We cannot do much beyond the above at this stage as our resources are very much limited. There is a demand from parents of Boy's side to have programs for different income groups but it is not possible at the moment.

Let us try to improve our performance further in the future programs. For example we are seriously considering waiving of even the participation fee of Rs. 100 for girls just to attract more girls to the program. Personally I am against gender discrimination but we are forced to do it to improve girls participation in the program.

All the best
 
It is a fact of life that many companies prefer Girls for the customer support jobs. They are given preference in call center jobs. It is because they are temperamentally better suited for these jobs. These jobs pay well.

Again the hotel industry prefers Girls for the front office jobs and also for house keeping.

Remember the old days when only girls used to be employed as telephone operators. Again Girls are preferred in highly repetitive jobs like welding etc in the electronic industry. They are better suited for that.

Visit the assembly section of any plant. Only Girls.

The dice is loaded against the Boys.
 
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