The Biggest Obstacle in Tamil Brahmin marriages-HOROSCOPE matching

[sankara_sharmah]

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Before I start, I come from a family where almost everyone is well-versed in astrology. Any family meeting will always lead to long conversation about horoscopes. I grew up surrounded by books on astrology. I was a regular reader of B.V. Raman's Astrological Magazine. Dabbled with Krishnamoorthi Paddhathi for some time. My house library has at least 50 books on Astrology. In Sanskrit, English and Tamil. My wife and eldest son are also well versed in astrology.

The above introduction was necessary to show that I have no prejudice against astrology.

Right from the good old days boys and girls of marriageable age have riled against this system of Horoscope Matching. Because it often prevented alliances between families known to each other for generations and even marriage with Mama's/Atthai's daughter. The we all have heard of stories of bribing the astrologer.

In the days of my Grandfather, they were not rigid about this. When the families are known to each other well, they used to do Pookatti Parckal. That is how my parents got married.

Now I have been very active in arranging the marriages of my children, and nieces. When we insert an advertisement in the Hindu we do get a number of replies. But very few horoscopes match. I have seen excellent alliances go by because of this factor. The final match may not be as good as the one who got away because of the horoscope.

There is no stastical data to prove that horoscope matching ensures a happy marriage. If that were so there should be no widows and widowers in the community. Even marriages have their share of good, bad, and ugly marriages.

Then why are we insisting on it? There will be more success stories in the Swayamvarams if the Horoscope Matching is done away with. It would make the life of the average Tamil Brahmin easier.

I am not talking about the system of horoscope matching. Its defects, effect of different ayanamsas, different type of Poruthams etc. and show how the system is basically defective. That would be too technical.

 

[RVR]

Sri Sankara Sharmah,

In our Swayamvaram functions, our astrologer Sri Swaminatha Sharma use to give a big lecture at the beginning of the function about astrology. He use to say that every mother in the house has become an astrologer and use to reject cases based on star match itself.

He use to explain that the `Pathu Porutham' as per Panchanga has little value. Probably he can explain better about the subject in more detail.

Our community people mostly believe in astrology and they want matching of horoscopes. Sri Swaminatha Sharma use to match horoscopes at the stage itself and bring both the parties together which is greatly appreciated.

Our swayamvaram function is just a voluntary service to our community and we cannot force anything on the participants. It is individual belief which takes the upper hand at the end of the day.
Beyond this we are helpless.

All the best

 

[sankara_sharmah]

My eldest son has a passion for astrology. I have spent days trying to convince him about the futility of horoscope matching.

One of the stories about Maha Periava goes as under.

It seems Maha Periava had blessed a particular marriage and the horoscopes were found matching. Then the boy died in an accident. When asked about it, Maha Periava seems said விதி கண்ணை மறைத்துவிட்டது. Of course I do not believe that Maha Periava said this. We have a habit of attributing our thoughts to him to gain legitimacy.

But it does illustrate a point. Astrology has degenerated into Horoscope matching and பரிஹாரம் both of which are efforts to circumvent Karma Phala.

I would request the members to think about it.

 

[RVR]

Paramacharyal doesn't interfere with individual marriage alliances and invoking His name is totally unwarranted. He advised people to recite Thirugnana Sambandar's Kolaru Pathigam to get rid of the bad effects of the plannets and nothing more than that.

As far as `Pariharam' is concerned, there is enough literature talking against `Pariharam'. Great Manu Needhi Cholan episode is the best example.

Manu Needhi Cholan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The above Chola refused to do `Pariharam' for killing the calf by his son and wanted to suffer the same feeling like the cow by killing his own son. Lord Shiva appeared before him and brought back the life of both the calf and the prince. It only shows that Lord Shiva didn't accept Pariharam but only the King's honesty.

Sekkizhar explains the above incident beautifully in the `Thiruthondar Puranam'

All the best

 

[Siddhanta]

Mr. Sankara Sharmah,

I am not a Brahmin, i am a Kshatriya. I have a deep passion for astrology. It is because once i came across a Brahmin astrologer who predicted my horoscope with utmost accuracy. Then i decided to consult him on a regular basis.

When our family started to look alliance for my sister, i suggested to my family that we do strict horoscope matching with this astrologer because he is very talented. There were many grooms and on what basis could we select the groom? Some are genuine and some are fraudulent. Even in extreme cases, people were forging the horoscopes. For this reason i use astrovision horoscope software to confirm if the horoscope is genuine. My father and mother lost hope but i firmly insisted on this. I take several horoscopes and the astrologer would select a few. Those horoscopes whom he has rejected will be willing to marry but i will reject them strictly. On the other hand, those horoscopes which he recommended would have difficulties in finalising the marriage. In reality even if i go and collect information about the job and nature of the rejected horoscope persons, they are not genuine. But the good horoscopes are genuine. In some cases the astrologer would say that a person is settled now, but in the future he would loose. Some astrologers could even predict the death of a person. I suppose matching done by a skillful astrologer would NEVER result in widow unless there was a horoscope forging.

Now my sister is married after a strict horoscope matching. My observation is that astrology is an effective tool that helps in a healthy lifestyle eliminating horrors. I have practically seen it myself.

 

[Iyest]

.

All I can suggest to people here is to not be too dismissive about astrology. Though it is the fashionable thing to do these days (like pizza and burger). Siddhanta has mentioned his experiences. I don't wish to get into the benefits of parikaram or what parikarams were done at kanchi mutt or elsewhere.

On the other hand, people also need to remember

1. There is no qualifying authority for astrology like in academic subjects. It is difficult to find genuinely good astrologers.

2. The lust for money leads to wrong reading/casting of horoscope

So it is quite a job today for getting an accurate reading of horoscopes.

 

[kunjuppu]

All I can suggest to people here is to not be too dismissive about astrology. Though it is the fashionable thing to do these days (like pizza and burger). Siddhanta has mentioned his experiences. I don't wish to get into the benefits of parikaram or what parikarams were done at kanchi mutt or elsewhere.

On the other hand, people also need to remember

1. There is no qualifying authority for astrology like in academic subjects. It is difficult to find genuinely good astrologers.

2. The lust for money leads to wrong reading/casting of horoscope

So it is quite a job today for getting an accurate reading of horoscopes.

iyest,

congratulations on a classic example of a diplomatically correct post.

not sure what your stand is.

but it sure felt the weather reporter commenting that there is 50% chance of rain, 50% chance of sunshine.

 

[Iyest]

iyest,

congratulations on a classic example of a diplomatically correct post.

Thank you. I know you are not easy with compliments to anyone.

not sure what your stand is.

You can certainly ask. Anyway it is the first sentence. Thereafter, I guess I tried to be too subtle with the explanation!

 

[Siddhanta]

One of my Keralite friend gave me his experience about his astrologer. Kerela Hindus also do strict Horoscope matching for marriages.

His Brahmin astrologer is also very talented and once he matched horoscope for a groom. But very shortly after the marriage, the groom died. Due to this, the groom's parents got angered and beat up the astrologer. The astrologer did not know what went wrong because he is very confident in his skills. He started to research on it and he found out that the groom's horoscope was forged and it could have been done when he was born, because his destiny is very bad and nobody would marry him. Then for this reason, he bought a computer and installed astrology software to reconfirm the genuineness of every horoscope he does matching for.

 

[Iyest]

One of my Keralite friend gave me his experience about his astrologer.

We had a similar incident in the extended family way back in the 50's or 60's. Person's horoscope is taken to an astrologer. Astrologer looks at the horoscope and says no way it can be correct. Since the person is middle to upper class and the horoscope simply cannot belong to one from any decent economic background. Astrologer then wanted the person himself to come and meet him. During the meeting, he examines the individual's palm. From the palm reading, astrologer makes up a new horoscope and gives it to the person saying that is his correct horoscope!

 

[RVR]

Sri Swaminatha Sharma sometimes says the horoscope is wrong and don't proceed with the case.

Probably he can explain more on how he comes to the conclusion at the first sight of the horoscope.

All the best

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Almost all families have family astrologers who draw up the horoscope. He does not specify which Ayanamasa he is basing his calculation on.

Now the notice in tamil matrimony .com says

ASTRO-VISION astrological calculations are based on scientific equations and not on any specific published almanac. Therefore, comparisons between the calculations made by ASTRO-VISION and those published in almanacs are absolutely unwarranted. Astro-Vision Futuretech Pvt. Ltd. shall not entertain any dispute on differences arising out of such comparisons nor can it be held responsible for the decisions that may be taken by anyone based on this report.
While Astro-Vision ensures that each report is prepared meticulously and with utmost care, it does not rule out the possibility of any unexpected errors. In case of any such errors Astro-Vision`s liability is limited to the extend of replacement of the report with a rectified one.
CHITRAPAKSHA AYANAMSA has been used for all the calculations as it is the most popular and widely used ayanamsa system in India. The astrological calculations may differ in case a different ayanamsa is used. There are minor variations in the chart formats and the names of stars and planets followed by different regions of India and some of these variations have been accommodated in the regional language versions. As a result, the reports generated in different languages may not appear the same.

Now we do not know which Ayanamsa the original horoscope was based on. The popular Ayanamsa are Lahiri and B.V. Raman (followed by Astrological magazine readers).

Now you make your own calculation and say that the other horoscope is a fraud. This is not fair.

Of course astrologers have to justify wrong predictions.

About computer horoscopes if you get the horoscope done by three different centres, you will get three different versions.

Everyone claims that his version is correct.

This being the case what is the sanctity of horoscope matching? How can you rely on it?

Think about it.

 

[Siddhanta]

Now we do not know which Ayanamsa the original horoscope was based on. The popular Ayanamsa are Lahiri and B.V. Raman (followed by Astrological magazine readers).

Now you make your own calculation and say that the other horoscope is a fraud. This is not fair.

Of course astrologers have to justify wrong predictions.

About computer horoscopes if you get the horoscope done by three different centres, you will get three different versions.

The astrologer whom i get advice suggested the astro-vision software. It prints the horoscope in Tamil. There are other methods of North Indian horoscopes(Kundli Pro is another software). Since my astrologer recommended astrovision, i used that software. He did agree that different people use different horoscopes based on their place of origin and it cannot be attributed to fraud alone. But to have a COMMON BASE, i use this software to draw horoscopes so that predictions could be done based on that common basis and any diversions arising out of predictions could not be attributed for the genuineness of the horoscope. I suppose horoscope drawn with a software is correct, but the analysis and predictions have to be done by a talented astrologer.

I am not a professional astrologer so i cnnot say anything more on this, but i have common sense so as to how about to take decisions after analysis in any situation.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Why do we do Horoscope Matching?

1. To ensure compatibility. Physical and Mental.

2. To ensure that the bad periods of life of the Boy and the Girl do not coincide.

3. To ensure progeny.

4. To ensure that they are together for a long time.

Death is not very common in this age, except in accidents.

What worries all parents is the issue of Divorce, and progeny.

The number of childless couples is increasing in our community.

The number of divorces are increasing.

Deaths are not common now excepting in accidents. But divorce is becoming more common.

A survey states that over the past four years the divorce rate in Delhi, the capital city of India has almost doubled and is projected to be 12000 by the year 2008. In 2006, Bangalore, the IT hub of India it was recorded that 1,246 cases of divorce were filed in the court that pertain to the IT sector exclusively. It has been estimated Mumbai has shot up to 4,138 in 2007 while cities that are acknowledged for their cultural richness and social values like Kolkata and Chennai, are no less behind. Agro based states like Punjab and Haryana are now seeing an increase of 150% of divorce rate since the last decade. Kerala, known to be the most literate state has experienced an increase of divorce rate by 350% in the last 10 years.

Around 20 years back India had a negligible divorce rate of around 5%. But based on the increasing number of divorce being filed today, the divorce rate in India is expected to rise up at a faster rate by the ensuing year.

Divorce Rate in India

Divorce rates are going up in our community. I thought that this was a big city phenomena. But when I was talking to my friend in a Village in Tamil Nadu, I was shocked to learn that divorce has made its appearance in villages/small towns also.

The number of childless couples is going up. You can no longer take it for granted that married couples will have children. A number of studies have been done on this.

Now all parents want their children to have a long and happy married life and have children.

Can Horoscope matching assure this.

NO. Frankly it can not.

Some one mentioned horoscope matching in Kerala. Kerala has one of the highest Divorce rates in India.

If horoscope matching can not assure one of a long and happy married life and progeny, why are we still sticking to it?

Tamil Brahmins are well known as Pragmatic people. We dumped the over the sea Bhrust rule when it suited us. I remember the time when I had to report for duty in my first job. I asked my father to fix up a good day for joining. My father advised me the join as early as possible without bothering about auspicious day. Why? From a person who was a firm believer in astrology and who never did anything without checking up with the Panchangam. One who waited for good sakunam to step out of the house.

Because in government service the seniority is based on date of joining. One day delay in joining may cost you the top job later.

So Parents of Boys and Girls. Be pragmatic. Dump the Horoscope matching because it has not proved its usefulness. Concentrate on the other aspects of compatibility between the Boy and the Girl.

 

[Nara]

....So Parents of Boys and Girls. Be pragmatic. Dump the Horoscope matching because it has not proved its usefulness. Concentrate on the other aspects of compatibility between the Boy and the Girl.

Dear SS, you are making a persuasive case, but it is unlikely to make any impact. The entire society is steeped in superstitions in every way.

Researchers have shown human brain is very good at pattern seeking, an important skill to differentiate between a rope and a snake, or aunt and mother, etc. This characteristic of the brain makes us notice and remember matches and ignore non-matches, unless the non-matches themselves are matches of some other kind.

So, when an astrologer seem to narrate one's past with spectacular accuracy, it is actually a case of our brain clicking for all the matches and skipping all the non-matches. Same is the case with future predictions, any prediction that even vaguely seems true, like a vague cloud pattern looks like a lion, our mind makes the match and notches up a success for the brilliant astrologer, but simply does not even notice a missed prediction. But, when a prediction goes horribly wrong, like a well matched marriage ends up with untimely death of the husband, the non-match is way too dramatic to miss, then we react with fury against the poor astrologer.

There were great people who cautioned us against this astrology for a long long time. Here is something from நாலடியார்:

சத்தமும் சோதிடமும் என்று ஆங்கு இவை பிதற்றும்
பித்தரில் பேதையார் இல்
​

and one from மகாகவி பாரதியார்:

சோதிடந்தனை இகழ்
​

You may not want to go as far as I do in rejecting astrology, but we do agree that our people will be better off taking a pragmatic approach.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

So Parents of Boys and Girls. Be pragmatic. Dump the Horoscope matching because it has not proved its usefulness. Concentrate on the other aspects of compatibility between the Boy and the Girl.

sankara,

while i am with you 101%, i doubt you and me, will have any effect on moving the pillars of convictions even by one atom.

somehow, i have found, that when it comes to certain events people seek refuge in astrology. every astrological reading, though, is fraught with warnings and fear mongering.

our life, as a whole,is one of uncertainties - with the increased prosperities, increasingly less so. however, we have our சபலம் moods and we swing to astrology - either to reinforce our insecurities or seek succour.

my mother gave up astrology when i was in my teens i think. because after that there was no astrology consultation in my home. my parents figured let the good and the bad come, as life will, and we will deal with it.

my uncle, great believer in astrology with regular ganikkal sessions, also had his share of good and bad, and nothing seem to have differed with the astrology consultations.

re kerala astrologers, our maternal astrologer was a panikkar who did the சோழி thing. his successes were: predicting one of my paternal uncle children demise; predicting from our native place, about a defect in a diamond set bought in faraway madras, all unseen.

his failure: predicting the wrong sex for my sibling.

it is said that president ronald reagan, would not make major decisions without consulting his wife nancy, who in turn would go to her astrologer for advice. so too did indira gandhi.

so to sum up, those who believe in astrology are in good company.

 

[Siddhanta]

The number of Divorces are increasing in Kerela and Tamil Nadu and all over India and also villages.

But statistics also shows that all marriages are not arranged marriages. If we notice the number of divorces increased when the number of love marriages increased. In olden days there were not much divorces. Could someone give statistics that horoscope marriage divorces and love marriage divorces? It is not possible.

It is an individual's will and wish to research into Astrology, and make use of it.

Best Regards.

 

[kunjuppu]

The number of Divorces are increasing in Kerela and Tamil Nadu and all over India and also villages.

But statistics also shows that all marriages are not arranged marriages. If we notice the number of divorces increased when the number of love marriages increased. In olden days there were not much divorces. Could someone give statistics that horoscope marriage divorces and love marriage divorces? It is not possible.

It is an individual's will and wish to research into Astrology, and make use of it.

Best Regards.

siddhanta,

while there may be the cause & effect syndrome, between love marriage & divorces, i think, there were just as many unhappy marriages in the past millenium.

it is just that the women did not have any recourse to remedy their sad state. if a man was unhappy with his wife, he chased the woman back to her home (where she was villified) and took another wife.

so, in fear of abandonment, the wife put up with the insults, indignities and sufferings in her in-laws house.

thank god such situations can be remedied for indian women. with education, employment and self-assertion, they can move on life without being stuck for the rest of their lives to losers and psychopaths.

i have had experiences of bad marriages (several) in my family - both arranged and love. it splits about 50-50.

 

[nachi naga]

and yet the most rational atheist,still has his days based on the names of planets,how quaint,some of these agnostics and rationalists are

 

[Siddhanta]

From my experiences, i have seen that when marriages are done based on strict horoscope matching, they are very strong and long lasting. My Keralite friend's family has been doing strict horoscope matching for generations. He said they are living a happy and healthy life.

He came across a difficult situation for his own wedding. He got an alliance and the girl was a very rich girl, the only inheritance of a wealthy buisinessman. My friend is a sailor like me. He wished to quit sailing and marry the girl. He is tall and handsome and the girl had no problems in marrying him. But the horoscope did not match and he took the hard option of quitting. Then he came across another girl who is not rich but the horoscope matched. He is married now and has a child and living a peaceful life.

If we think deeper also, a rich girl may not always be a good option. If he looks into the wider consequences, she might be egoistic, might not respect him etc. In extreme cases, she could even throw him out.

Astrology does a similar function. It may not be fruitive for the immediate present but for a wider perspective it gives fruitition.

I suppose divorces may not always be attributed solely upon the male. I have seen cases where the female got attracted towards another man and the husband is in a very difficult situation. Getting a male company is easy for a female but the same is difficult for a male in India. He is in a very troublesome state because after divorce his wife has a partner and it is not easy to find one for himself.

 

[anandb]

Jyotisham is considered as one of the Shat-angas (six limbs) of the Vedas where it is equated to the "eyes". For those who believe in the Vedas, it can never be a false science, though the people practicing it may be false depending on their expertise or lack of it. For more detailed explanations on Jyotisham by the Acharyal, click below

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:
Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:
Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Jyotisham is considered as one of the Shat-angas (six limbs) of the Vedas where it is equated to the "eyes". For those who believe in the Vedas, it can never be a false science, though the people practicing it may be false depending on their expertise or lack of it. For more detailed explanations on Jyotisham by the Acharyal, click below

Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:
Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:
Tamil Content : kamakoti.org:

As I said very clearly in my first post this is not about Astrology, but about Horoscope matching. Only 2% of the people who believe in Astrology believe in Horoscope matching. Astrology has followers all over the world, Not Horoscope matching.

I believe in astrology. I am well versed in it.

Astrology is not only Horoscope matching or Pariharams alone. The most important aspect of astrology is the fixing of the auspicious time for conducting Rituals.

I have written basically about Horoscope matching for marriages. Please let us not confuse the issue.

Thank you.

 

[Iyest]

From my experiences, i have seen that when marriages are done based on strict horoscope matching, they are very strong and long lasting.

Yes and it also means you have found a well versed astrologer. Anyway it seems most people are fixed in their views and this discussion is going nowhere. In another sense it is best for people to experience life directly and learn accordingly. All too often I have seen 'rationalism' evaporate instantly when confronted with personal experience.

 

[jaisiyaraam]

As I said very clearly in my first post this is not about Astrology, but about Horoscope matching. Only 2% of the people who believe in Astrology believe in Horoscope matching. Astrology has followers all over the world, Not Horoscope matching.

I believe in astrology. I am well versed in it.

Astrology is not only Horoscope matching or Pariharams alone. The most important aspect of astrology is the fixing of the auspicious time for conducting Rituals.

I have written basically about Horoscope matching for marriages. Please let us not confuse the issue.

Thank you.

Namaste sankara_sharmahji,

Sir you believe in astrology but advocating to do away with horoscope for match making but why? why are you selective? is it because of the above mentioned 2%? and/or the fault of astrologers that cast horoscopes wrongly?

Jai SiyaRaam

 

[Nara]

and yet the most rational atheist,still has his days based on the names of planets,how quaint,some of these agnostics and rationalists are

NN, I don't know how you figured "most" are like that, but, leaving that aside, anyone claiming to be a rationalist and also believes in astrology is not a rationalist, but a hypocrite, no less than those who criticize science while enjoying all the benefits derived from it.

Cheers!