Sunday Reflections

[renuka]

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In vedanta ,advaitha, we say 'Aham Brahmasmi and also Tattvamasi.That is Atman [self} is Brahman .I am Brahman.Thou art also brahman.What can be more democratic than this.

Though we subscribe to this philosophy, yet we subscribe to chaturvarna,sanctity and infallibilty of vedas,sacrifice to Gods as a way to salvation.This is the great

contradiction. The latter is brahminism.We can but accept the philosophical foundation of hinduism for a better society based on equality.

This is what has been the greatest contradiction in hindu thought.- accepting vedanta philosophy and extolling also the caste system denying rights to other castes

Dear Krish ji..

No human has equal vision..even those with cataract have one eye a little clearer in vision than the other.

aham brahmAsmi is just Ka Pusphah..flowers in the sky..it does not exist.

Its mainly aham brAhmanAsmi!LOL

 

[krish44]

Let reform start from home.

First of all, collect all your grand children and spend every day one hour teaching them that they should marry only dalits when they reach the marriageable age.

And forcefully sell the idea of marrying dalit to your close relatives who are preparing for marriage insisting on them to give up the idea of marriage within the community because it is harmful.

That will be far more purposeful than coming here and lecturing again and again about various forms of IC IR marriages.. Because, after all this lecture you return to your cosy home where your DIL is at best an Iyer girl brings you a cup of kapi and you are comfortable with your conscience telling it that these days women have a lot more freedom of choice and they have been given freedom fully along with their free will to act. LOL.

You have no satisfactory answers.

It is clear that vedanta was a reform movement to renew hinduism , rescuing hindus from obsolete thought based on varna and jaati even in ancient days.

Now so many commentaries are being written on content of vedanta.Every one from all castes want to have part of vedantha pie.

But Casteism is only increasing.

Reforms will take place irrespective of what we seniors think.

Youngsters disgusted with the old order will make rules which suit them to face modern living.

They will judge better than us what to retain and discard.

We can hope only that we are not discarded .lol

 

[teamtb]

Members who don't live at Tamil Nadu describing......???

I only remember five blind men looking at an elephant.....

Om Asato Maa Sad-Gamaya |
Tamaso Maa Jyotir-Gamaya |
Mrtyor-Maa Amrtam Gamaya |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

We Know who you are, one more personal comment like this will have consequences. Everyone is welcome on this site. Every opinion counts.

 

[Falcon]

We Know who you are, one more personal comment like this will have consequences. Everyone is welcome on this site. Every opinion counts.

I never lived in TN. I only visited Tn on short vacations. I remember that my family members all of them Tanjore Vadama Brahmins used to look down on others. Even other brahmins. All the other NB were Shudras to them.

Its a known fact that South Indian Brahmins only know 2 types of caste...the Brahmin and the Non Brahmin(a.k.a Shudra)

Dalits too tend to only know 2 types of caste...I have seen a talk show on TV where a Dalit participant was using the term Dalit and Non Dalit.

I guess when one is at the either end of the spectrum they only see from one angle.

These things are past.....

There are certain districts where students wear band on their wrist, the colour of the band notifies the caste they belong.

No Brahmin boy wears a band visible to one and all.

It is a very sensitive subject. IMHO there are 76 SCs and 36 STs, there are OBCs and Forward Castes.

There are denotified communities.

Members who don’t actually live with the people of different castes at Tamil Nadu, or don’t have any personal experience and don’t have any first hand information, coming here writing about Tamil Nadu is something surprising.

Such posts may amounts to distortion of fact or misleading or misrepresentation, also.

Are the members here don’t deserve facts…?

Does it mean anyone can write anything …!

Some one has to come to clarify…

Do they don’t verify the information, its veracity etc before clicking the enter button...?

What does the rule of the Forum speaks about posting information which are no way concerned with facts….?

If someone comes and post some lies in this Forum under the pretext of freedom of speech… I think there is something wrong with our system.

The system should be that the member should be confident about the veracity of the information shared in this Forum.

Lest the Forum may become a den of Joseph Goebbels.

As for your warning:

I am in fact glad to see this message.

First time since 2012, an authorized posting from a Moderator, makes one to think that we have a dedicated person to attend to grievances of Members viz. belittling, demeaning, insulting, teasing, spewing venom, mudslinging etc etc. And there will be also bullying.

I know pretty well that the owner of this Forum, being young, is professionally very busy and is unable to pay more attention by going through the content of each and every posting.

I think with this 'Teamtb' acting as a Moderator, I am greatly relieved that I can knock the doors of this Moderator when I suffer in the hands of this group. Hope the Teamtb will act impartially and will be also just and fair in his judgments.

Sir, for your information, I am thorough with the rules and regulations of the Forum and used to read and observe them again and again.

One member staying at USA comes here to offer his opinion about castes in Tamil Nadu, and the other residing at Malaysia talking that there are only two types of ............. and finally, the Member from Delhi will offer his expert opinion.

Does this mean, that anybody can write anything here unminding the veracity of substance ?

What I referred to was only a parable.

Anyway nice to see a dedicated Moderator coming to warn whenever someone crosses the Lakshman Rekha.

I will take this warning in good spirit.

Thanks Sir

This news item may speak volume about castes practiced in Tamil Nadu

Wearing caste on the wrist — green for Dalits, red for Thevars

Last month, a 12-year-old Dalit boy in Jodhpur was beaten up by his teacher for allegedly taking a plate from a stack meant for upper castes. The Indian Express visits schools across the country where lessons in caste differences start early.


IN the schools of Tirunelveli, about 650 km south of Chennai, caste comes in shades of red, yellow, green and saffron. It’s what students wear on their wrists, on their foreheads, around their necks, under their shirts. It’s who they are.
At the Government Higher Secondary School in Tirunelveli town, a Class X student extends his hand to display his green-and-red kayaru, a wrist band of interwoven threads. “The upper castes have yellow-red bands, so we have these,” he said.

In this belt in southern Tamil Nadu known for violent caste conflicts between OBCs and Dalits, these wrist bands are markers that tell children who is a friend, who isn’t. Though there are no written rules, students usually know their ‘colours’ by the time they reach high school.

It’s red and yellow for Thevars, blue and yellow for Nadars, saffron for Yadavs — all socially and politically powerful Hindu communities that come under the Most Backward Classes (MBC) category — while students of the Dalit community of Pallars wear wrist bands in green and red and the Arundhathiyars, also Dalits, wear green, black and white.

Read more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...on-my-wrist-green-for-dalits-red-for-thevars/

 

[Vaagmi]

You have no satisfactory answers.

I know you will remain unsatisfied. But I am not writing here only for you. Could you please ask me the questions? I asked you questions and you did not answer them.

It is clear that vedanta was a reform movement to renew hinduism , rescuing hindus from obsolete thought based on varna and jaati even in ancient days.

It is not clear. If it is clear to you, please present here the facts. Let us discuss. Summary statements like "it is clear that........." lead us no where.

Now so many commentaries are being written on content of vedanta.Every one from all castes want to have part of vedantha pie.

So what?

But Casteism is only increasing. Reforms will take place irrespective of what we seniors think. Youngsters disgusted with the old order will make rules which suit them to face modern living.

What is modern living according to you? In what way is it in conflict with tradition?

They will judge better than us what to retain and discard. We can hope only that we are not discarded .lol

Why are they better judges than us? Any special potion they drink make them better?
I do not eat out of their hands and so I just do not bother.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Its a known fact that South Indian Brahmins only know 2 types of caste...the Brahmin and the Non Brahmin(a.k.a Shudra)

Dalits too tend to only know 2 types of caste...I have seen a talk show on TV where a Dalit participant was using the term Dalit and Non Dalit.

I guess when one is at the either end of the spectrum they only see from one angle.

I do not think this post reflects the complete truth.

For every jati, it is their own jati and others. So for iyers, it is iyers and others, for iyengars, it is iyengars and others, for parayars, it is parayars and others etc. And this is true for castes such as vanniyars, gounders, devars, mudaliars etc It is not as if all these other castes have samadarshina that is missing in brahmin and dalit castes.

 

[Falcon]

This may be present scenario at Tamil Nadu more particularly in certain district…

One cannot bury his head under sand and come here to harp.....

Wearing caste on the wrist — green for Dalits, red for ThevarsLast month, a 12-year-old Dalit boy in Jodhpur was beaten up by his teacher for allegedly taking a plate from a stack meant for upper castes.

The Indian Express visits schools across the country where lessons in caste differences start early.


A headmaster at a school near Tirunelveli town said there were other markers. “Like you have different houses — green house, yellow house, etc — in city schools, children here wear coloured vests. We cannot ban everything, definitely not what children wear under their uniform. These vests come in handy during a game of basketball to draw up teams based on caste lines, but they are as effective to settle scores,” said

The headmaster said anything, even a song, can trigger caste tension among students. Recalling one such instance, he said, “Recently, a Dalit student on a bus played a song on his cellphone hailing Ambedkar. A Thevar student responded by playing a song in praise of his caste from the Kamal Hasan movie, Thevar Magan. This led to a clash between students representing both communities,” he said.

Students also wear lockets with photographs of leaders representing their castes. K Kamaraj lockets are popular among Nadar students; the Thevars wear lockets with photographs of U Muthuramalingam Thevar, a veteran political leader for Thevars; the Yadavs have claimed Veeran Alagumuthu Kone, one of the first freedom fighters, as their own; while in Coimbatore and Namakkal regions of the state, Gounder students wear lockets of Dheeran Chinnamalai, one of the commanders in the Polygar Wars of 1801-1802.

People here say such caste markers were unheard of until two decades ago. “These practices coincided with the rise of several caste-based political parties (such as the Samathuva Makkal Katchi of Nadars and the All India Moovendar Munnani Kazhagam of Thevars) and movements. While such practices are particularly visible in Tirunelveli, you will find them across the state,” said M Bharathan of the Human Rights Council based in Tirunelveli.

“Wrist bands and coloured vests are just what you see. There’s much more to this conflict,” said Lakshmanan. Tirunelveli district collector M Karunakaran said he ordered the ban on coloured wrist bands and other things used to identify caste following a police report on the increasing number of caste-based clashes in schools. “We banned all sorts of things, including wrist bands, after a police report studied the pattern of violence in schools and colleges. The police sought help from the district administration. Not only schools, college officials too were called for a meeting where we asked them to ban such things,” he said.

Source: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...on-my-wrist-green-for-dalits-red-for-thevars/

 

[krish44]

I do not think this post reflects the complete truth.

For every jati, it is their own jati and others. So for iyers, it is iyers and others, for iyengars, it is iyengars and others, for parayars, it is parayars and others etc. And this is true for castes such as vanniyars, gounders, devars, mudaliars etc It is not as if all these other castes have samadarshina that is missing in brahmin and dalit castes.

In delhi in fifties lot of domestic workers moved to delhi from salem ,erode belt.They belonged to some NB castes other than Sudra. Yet brahmin middle class referred

to them as sudras.Frankly, I did not know the caste of these immigrants.Of course now after 70 years , we know there is a spectrum of castes from sudra to brahmins.

. No one dares to call them sudras. We deal

respectfully with them as they now belong to next generation , better educated and set terms to employers for taking up work.Yet we do ask whether a person is a B

or NB when we have to make a choice for hiring them for some work.

 

[krish44]

I know you will remain unsatisfied. But I am not writing here only for you. Could you please ask me the questions? I asked you questions and you did not answer them.



It is not clear. If it is clear to you, please present here the facts. Let us discuss. Summary statements like "it is clear that........." lead us no where.



So what?



What is modern living according to you? In what way is it in conflict with tradition?



Why are they better judges than us? Any special potion they drink make them better?
I do not eat out of their hands and so I just do not bother.

The vedanta movement tried to philosophise to moderate the vedic movement which had degenerated..Later after many more years , there was further revival lead

by adi sankaracharya, ramanuja,madhvacharya to combat threats from buddhism and jainism. The south had seen the decline of vedic

religion.Adi sankaracharya organised mutts in all four corners of the country with autonomy and head to propagate advaitha.Ramanuja advocated vishist advaitha

similarly .Both played down the varna and jati.Sankara associated the bhakthi movement with his preaching to make masses go to temples.He revived the hindu

religion.These can hardly been challenged.They were able to reduce the atheist appeal of buddhism.They lead another revival movement in hinduism.

In fact the next revival in 19th and 20th century was lead by neo vedantists-swami vivekanand and ramakrishna mission.They had to contend both with arya samaj and

brahmo movement.In fact bengalis revived hinduism faced with onslaught from islam and christianity.

Hinduism over centuries has faced decay but had the capacity to revive itself.

2. youngsters are faced with challenges arising out of madness for material wealth creation due to opening out of economy. They do not buy spirituality sans material

wealth. Most westerners would laugh about us preaching spirituality to them when we are unable to make both ends meet and fill our stomach. Youngsters feel disgusted with

preaching of spiritual living when they are chasing good living with improved life standards. They would just laugh away as utter stupidity if we approach them with

sermons on spirituality.This is the basic conflict between youth and seniors.Only when they have collected enough material wealth they might think of hindu

spirituality.

 

[Vaagmi]

The vedanta movement tried to philosophise to moderate the vedic movement which had degenerated..Later after many more years , there was further revival lead by adi sankaracharya, ramanuja,madhvacharya to combat threats from buddhism and jainism.

Vedic movement degerated -- Please clarify as to what it degenerated into and from what.

And pray tell us what was moderated in the vedas by vedanta.

As usual answering these two querries is not a precondition to continue the discussion here. Uncomfortable questions are difficult to handle. LOL.

2. youngsters are faced with challenges arising out of madness for material wealth creation due to opening out of economy. They do not buy spirituality sans material wealth. Most westerners would laugh about us preaching spirituality to them when we are unable to make both ends meet and fill our stomach. Youngsters feel disgusted with preaching of spiritual living when they are chasing good living with improved life standards.

This presumes that during Sankara and Ramanuja the society was super rich with all comforts. So youngsters then followed in drovesSankara and Ramanuja who were teaching spirituality. Or is it that youngsters of different ages follow different rules of the game?

They would just laugh away as utter stupidity if we approach them with sermons on spirituality.This is the basic conflict between youth and seniors.Only when they have collected enough material wealth they might think of hindu spirituality.

How much material wealth is "enough" wealth? Seniors were also "youth" one day and we find them spiritually inclined. They are not failures as far as wealth acquisition is concerned. Rather today's youngsters stand on the shoulders of the seniors to launch themselves. They know it fully well.

Problem is only with those oldies who feel they have been ignored and it is a different problem. It has everything to do with their ego and inadequacies in several aspects except in age.

 

[Raji Ram]

I never lived in TN. I only visited Tn on short vacations. I remember that my family members all of them Tanjore Vadama Brahmins used to look down on others. Even other brahmins. All the other NB were Shudras to them.

Very true, Prasad Sir!

Wish to share a funny incident which happened in 2004. One temple in Chennai was giving charts containing the basic

information of prospective brides and grooms. One mAmA wanted to change his native place form Tanjore to Chennai

which the officer denied to do! He was ranting because it seems parents of girls do NOT want any alliance form Tanjore

grooms because their demands are supposed to be very high!!

 

[Falcon]

In delhi in fifties lot of domestic workers moved to delhi from salem ,erode belt.They belonged to some NB castes other than Sudra. Yet brahmin middle class referred to them as sudras. Frankly, I did not know the caste of these immigrants.Of course now after 70 years , we know there is a spectrum of castes from sudra to brahmins.

What has been stated above may be past

Now what is stated here under is ground reality..

There are about fifty Sublabh Shauchalyas (Public Toilets) in Delhi and who are the people who clean these public toilets daily…. It is none else than Brahmins….it is Brahmins who are cleaning these toilets and taking care of the maintenance…

They are cleaning the public toilets which are used by other caste people..


And the additional information is that this very public Institution was started by a Brahmin ..


This is the fact and especially people at Delhi cannot deny this…. As they experience the first hand information.

Besides, there is also number of Brahmins working as coolies at Delhi’s Railway Station.

They lift and carry the luggages of all castes…

One can also find Brahmin Rickshaw pullers at Delhi, more particularly at Patel Nagar.

This is the bitter truth.

Now who are sudras.......???

[h=1][FONT=&quot]Source: Are Brahmins the Dalits of today?[/FONT][/h][h=1][FONT=&quot]http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm[/FONT][/h][h=1][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/h]

 

[Falcon]

In delhi in fifties lot of domestic workers moved to delhi from salem ,erode belt.They belonged to some NB castes other than Sudra. Yet brahmin middle class referred to them as sudras. Frankly, I did not know the caste of these immigrants.Of course now after 70 years , we know there is a spectrum of castes from sudra to brahmins.

What has been stated above may be past

Now what is stated here is the ground reality..

There are about fifty Sublabh Shauchalyas (Public Toilets) in Delhi and who are the people who clean these public toilets daily…. It is none else than Brahmins….it is Brahmins who are cleaning these toilets and taking care of the maintenance…

They are cleaning the public toilets which are used by other caste people..

And the additional information is the very public Institution was started by a Brahmin ..


This is the fact and especially people at Delhi cannot deny this…. As they experience the first hand information.

Besides, there is also number of Brahmins working as coolies at Delhi’s Railway Station.

They lift and carry the luggages of all castes…

And one can also find Brahmin Rickshaw pullers at Delhi, more particularly at Patel Nagar....


This is the bitter truth.

Now who are sudras…..??

[h=1]Source: Are Brahmins the Dalits of today?[/h][h=1]http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm[/h]

 

[prasad1]

Very true, Prasad Sir!

:clap2:

 

[Vaagmi]

Very true, Prasad Sir!

Wish to share a funny incident which happened in 2004. One temple in Chennai was giving charts containing the basic

information of prospective brides and grooms. One mAmA wanted to change his native place form Tanjore to Chennai

which the officer denied to do! He was ranting because it seems parents of girls do NOT want any alliance form Tanjore

grooms because their demands are supposed to be very high!!

Disclaimer: This is not my opinion or view but what was observed.

RRji,

In the times of last generation, in the agraharams in southern districts there used to be an unwritten rule that brides and grooms from Tanjore District should not be touched with even a barge pole. They were considered too lazy, good in only singing shastriya sangeet and spitting the betel nut juice. People used to stop with going upto just Madurai and in rare cases to Trichy district and never beyond that. LOL.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Vaagmi Sir,

That mAmA was very upset by registering his native place as Tanjore. He was arguing that it has to be changed as Chennai

since he was born and brought up here. He also mentioned that he did not get any match because people were afraid of the

'demands' by ThanjAvoorkkArA!

 

[tbs]

Dear Vaagmi Sir,

That mAmA was very upset by registering his native place as Tanjore. He was arguing that it has to be changed as Chennai

since he was born and brought up here. He also mentioned that he did not get any match because people were afraid of the

'demands' by ThanjAvoorkkArA!

hi

even palakkad brahins are same as THANAVOORKARA......just only one thing different...NO PATHU/NO THEETU ETC... my inlaws are

from tanjore.....even lived more than 50 yrs in delhi...they never changed.....still behaving like THANJAVOORKARA.....gals from

tanjore little okay...but boys are very different....so nobody wants their gal to be DIL....generally tanjore mamiars are

look like DEMONS/RAKSHASIS....in some cases..its true..i had bitter experience with them...i like thirunelveli brahmins...

 

[prasad1]

OK-OK stop bashing my ancestors.eep:

Then we can talk of Brecharnam Brahmins or something else.

Or we can fight about Iyyangars etc. Just kidding that is banned subject.



:hungry:

:focus:

 

[krish44]

The original vedas provided for Varnas/jatis and karma .Varna lead to caste hierarchy . They became rigid and hereditary . Food habits degenerated due to

consumption of

meats due to animal sacrifice and repeated blood letting due to slaughtering. Soma and sura were included in every event. The vaishya caste which concentrated on

trade became affluent and felt left out. Shudras were made to feel discriminated.In fact these two castes later embraced jainism and buddhism.So when vedantas spelt

out their philosophical doctrine , describing worldly pleasures as maya and postulating theories of atman and brahman besides extolling vegetarianism.

2. Youngsters of today exposed to western education and living in open materialistic societies in metros and abroad are into money making game. They work hard for

big money, party hard with choicest liquors besides experimenting with open live in with other sex.To preach spirituality to them would be laughable.Sankara and

Ramanuja only concentrated on evils pertaining to an age they were in and felt upanishads were the answer.Modern youngster might be tempted by modern gurus like

the Art of living Guru or Sadhguru [sarkari guru] , or yoga guru[ Known more for his ayurvedic products]. Our generation had Mahesh yogi [patronised by beatles],

Hare krishna guru Bkakti vedanta prabupada and Osho for the drug crowd.Every generation chooses its spiritual guru in case they feel tempted

 

[krish44]

hi

even palakkad brahins are same as THANAVOORKARA......just only one thing different...NO PATHU/NO THEETU ETC... my inlaws are

from tanjore.....even lived more than 50 yrs in delhi...they never changed.....still behaving like THANJAVOORKARA.....gals from

tanjore little okay...but boys are very different....so nobody wants their gal to be DIL....generally tanjore mamiars are

look like DEMONS/RAKSHASIS....in some cases..its true..i had bitter experience with them...i like thirunelveli brahmins...

I know one born brahmin from tanjavur -kumbakonam belt. Thats yours truly.

Now I know why every one is bashing me up here.lol

Our girls are pretty and make hearts flutter.So do not say only OK. They are the best.lol

 

[Raji Ram]

......... 2. Youngsters of today exposed to western education and living in open materialistic societies in metros and abroad are into money making game. They work hard for

big money, party hard with choicest liquors besides experimenting with open live in with other sex.To preach spirituality to them would be laughable. ........

Ayyooo, Krish Sir! Where from you get such a set of youngsters? The tambrahms in my circle, who are settled abroad, do NOT

fit in your description. All the boys are teetotallers.

In fact, all the girls are wearing their ThAli kodi and some wear even their mettis, like my D I L.

We make special thAli - weighing 4 or 6 gms per set, in a tiny size so that they can wear it along with T shirts too.

(Normally the weight of each set will be 8 gms).

 

[sravna]

I believe the "in thing" is to be spiritual. Krish Ji your views are slowly becoming outdated.

 

[krish44]

I believe the "in thing" is to be spiritual. Krish Ji your views are slowly becoming outdated.

Thanks for the warning.

I take you most seriously in this forum.

I shall change to live upto high standards of your expectations

 

[renuka]

I believe the "in thing" is to be spiritual. Krish Ji your views are slowly becoming outdated.

Dear Sravna,

I have noted that mostly people I know here are into Materialism but via spirituality!

That is they do regular Homas at home for well being and prosperity.

Everyone has their own personal TB priest to advice every move they make.

Everyone's TB priest are on Whatsapp contact with them.

The TBs priests here are driving BMWs here cos of the response is so good.

I was very surprised to note one of my relatives wearing a protection amulet made by a TB priest from India who works here.

I was totally surprised cos I thought TBs are not supposed to dabble with Tantra rituals.

So Sravna..there are very few people who are into true spirituality sans material.

I personally prefer not to desire material in the name of spirituality.

 

[krish44]

One youngster sitting near me now says people talking about mini thalis and metties are living in La la land.

These are pulled out by youngsters in US when their parents go there to visit them.

Otherwise work environment in US encourage , nay forces youngsters to drink in soccial and professional settings to progress in their career and land their next big

deal to become millionaires.In fact saravana bhavan in newyork and frankfurt have a drinks menu where clients are treated to traditional 'exotic' south indian

delicacies with best red wine and scotch.