Some Interesting questions

[lotus_quartz]

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Why Iyers outnumber Iyengars by more than 10:1 ?

Besides Iyers and Iyengars, are there any other type of Tamil brahmins also ?

What are the views of Forum members on inter marriages between Iyers and Iyengars ?

What are the views of Forum members on inter marriages between Tamil brahmins and brahmins from other states (Karnataka, Andhra, Maharashtra, UP etc. ) if such alliances are otherwise ok from point of view of Gothram, Star etc ?

 

[mrifan]

Data please

Not sure what is the source of the purported 10:1 ratio. Can you please provide data to back this claim? I think Iyers and Iyengars both represent the lineage from the ancient Rishis, and we have further splits in each segment

Brahmanas -> Iyers -> Vadama, Vathima, Brihacharanam etc

Brahmanas -> Iyengars -> Vadagalai, Thenkalai, ...

with further divisions depending upon the origin (Thanjavur, Palakkad, Mysore etc).

This is one reason why I feel that all those people who clamor about "destruction of castes" are on the wrong track. The true goal should be to allow each group to practice their own style of worship and treat everybody equally before the law and in the public domain. That I believe is a stable social solution to the desire for people to identify with certain ideologies, and yet believe in a common future together in the same nation. Private expression, and public conformance can, and do go hand in hand.

As an example, another caste could emerge among Brahmanas who worship Sai Baba (Sai-Babars!), which is perfectly fine. If a Sai-Babar wants to marry an Iyer or Iyengar, I believe there is nothing wrong with that, while it is equally acceptable for a Sai-Babar to only want to marry another Sai-Babar to preserve the style of worship of Sai-Baba!

 

[NARAS]

sirs- there is nothing wrong in bramins of various sub sects marrying each other. but i do not approve of bramin -non bramin marriages as the culture of brams and non brams are diatemetrically opposite to each other.

 

[mrifan]

Echoing ChoraIyerKa

What are the views of Forum members on inter marriages between Iyers and Iyengars ?

What are the views of Forum members on inter marriages between Tamil brahmins and brahmins from other states (Karnataka, Andhra, Maharashtra, UP etc. ) if such alliances are otherwise ok from point of view of Gothram, Star etc ?

I think Mr. ChoraIyerKa captured this issue perfectly in a previous post. Usually one starts out looking for, say, a Vadama Iyer. Upon failing to find a suitable match, the search criteria widens to include all Tamil Iyers all over India, failing which, all Tamil Iyers and Iyengars, failing which, all South Indian Brahmanas, failing which, all Brahmanas in India, failing which, upper-caste Hindus, and so on. I think the above is a fairly natural way of searching for a spouse. Some may be very particular about a certain language and sub-caste, which is fine, there is nothing wrong with it. It all depends upon the relative weightage one assigns to the sub-caste, looks, qualifications, personality, location, family background etc. I am sure an algorithm can be worked out which can predict the possibility of matches in a matrimonial database if a person can assign these weight factors. Someone who develops such an algorithm can make a lot of money by selling the software to a matrimonial site!

If someone does so, please remember to pay me some royalties,
In my own extended family and relatives, some have married Andhra Vaidiki Brahmanas, some have married Maharashtrian Saraswat Brahmanas, some Kerala Brahmanas. It all depends upon the locality where they stay, company one works for, and other such factors. For example, a Tamil Brahmana in Mumbai is much more likely to meet a Maharashtrian Brahman rather than a Tamil Brahman. So it goes.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Thanks for replying.

That Iyers outnumber Iyengars is my own conclusion based on number of Iyers and Iyengars I know or have come across or am related to.

How far correct it is I do not know, but perhaps there may be some element of truth in it.

Regarding zone of search for alliance, thefunda is - If you can't hit the bull's eye, try to hit the periphery !

 

[hariharan1972]

Welcome it

What are the views of Forum members on inter marriages between Iyers and Iyengars ?

What are the views of Forum members on inter marriages between Tamil brahmins and brahmins from other states (Karnataka, Andhra, Maharashtra, UP etc. ) if such alliances are otherwise ok from point of view of Gothram, Star etc ?

I completely welcome it.

If such inter marriages increase, then, our Brahmin community will be well & truly 'matrixed' with "vertical" meeting the "horizontal"

 

[Kothai]

I stand an example

Yes, I too welcome it. I hail from a Vadama family but I have married a Brihacharnam person. I don't find any difference at all in the lifestyle of both sub-sects. In this context I want to mention that my parents chose a Brihacharnam person not because of finding one from our own Vadama. The fact is my husband is the one & only Maappillai who came to see me. They didn't have any strict condition of only Vadama groom for me. Even I've heard my mother saying that "Mahaperiyaval had advised the Hindu Brahmins to forget all subsects while seeking alliance for sons and daughters and go for only Brahmins."
And I don't see any problem in the Iyer-Iyengar marriage also.
This is also one of the ways to keep our community intact and growing.

 

[KRS]

sirs- there is nothing wrong in bramins of various sub sects marrying each other. but i do not approve of bramin -non bramin marriages as the culture of brams and non brams are diatemetrically opposite to each other.

Sirs,

There are a lot of 'Saivam' (vegetarian) families among the non-brahmins, as opposed to 'Asaivam' (non-vegetarian) families.

Following your line of reasoning and thought, I assume that you will have no problems with Brahmins entering in to blissful matrimonial alliances with these families. The next step is ofcourse to consider, how we can admit them in to the society of Brahminhood.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[vadivelu]

good

Sirs,

There are a lot of 'Saivam' (vegetarian) families among the non-brahmins, as opposed to 'Asaivam' (non-vegetarian) families.

Following your line of reasoning and thought, I assume that you will have no problems with Brahmins entering in to blissful matrimonial alliances with these families. The next step is ofcourse to consider, how we can admit them in to the society of Brahminhood.

Pranams,
KRS

I am not a brahmin. but my mother tongue tamil.. I m following discussion here.

Like views encouraging brahmin women to marry non brahmin men.

We like marrying white skinned brahmin women and our childrens
become white. we come up in society. thaz why.

thank you . hope more such views in this forum so that more brahmin women will marry people like us.

 

[kudumi]

Some Interesting answers.

MCQ in an Exam from the future ( when Robots rule the earth).

Choose the best you can.

Question:
How will you make your kid fly from Madras to Delhi?

a) Get him flight tickets from madras to delhi.
b) Teach him aeronautical engineering in Muniyaandi vilas ( becasue in the future all seats in IIT are in quota for Robots) so that he can build his own plane.
c) Spend the money and buy him an airplane ( because in the future eboyy sells airplanes).
d) Marry an eagle so that the kid has wings and it can fly on its own.

 

[lotus_quartz]

1. Would you be equally interested in marrying any white skinned woman ?
2. You do not seem much interested in non-white Brahmin woman. Why ?
3. Is complexion the only aspect of your persoanlity and lifestyle where you feel the need to change ?
4. If tomorrow some magic medicine or cream is invented which can help you in changing the complexion towards fairer shades, would you still be interested in marrying only white brahmin woman ?
5. Would you like women from your community to marry fair skinned Brahmin men ?
6. How do you propose going about the task ?

I am not a brahmin. but my mother tongue tamil.. I m following discussion here.

Like views encouraging brahmin women to marry non brahmin men.

We like marrying white skinned brahmin women and our childrens
become white. we come up in society. thaz why.

thank you . hope more such views in this forum so that more brahmin women will marry people like us.

 

[Chintana]

LQ,

Solid questions! Bravo!

Chintana

1. Would you be equally interested in marrying any white skinned woman ?
2. You do not seem much interested in non-white Brahmin woman. Why ?
3. Is complexion the only aspect of your persoanlity and lifestyle where you feel the need to change ?
4. If tomorrow some magic medicine or cream is invented which can help you in changing the complexion towards fairer shades, would you still be interested in marrying only white brahmin woman ?
5. Would you like women from your community to marry fair skinned Brahmin men ?
6. How do you propose going about the task ?

 

[NARAS]

Sirs,

There are a lot of 'Saivam' (vegetarian) families among the non-brahmins, as opposed to 'Asaivam' (non-vegetarian) families.

Following your line of reasoning and thought, I assume that you will have no problems with Brahmins entering in to blissful matrimonial alliances with these families. The next step is ofcourse to consider, how we can admit them in to the society of Brahminhood.

Pranams,
KRS

sirs- even i have heard that many non bramin familes have been vegetarians for centuries. even marriages between bramins & vegetarian non bramins is o.k. to some extent. marriages between bramin male & female non bramin is also digestable,as the woman becomes a bramin after the marriage, and their offsprings are also bramins for all purposes. but i really cannot digest the marriages between bramin woman and non bramin non vegetarian males (like the marriage between srinithi & karthik chettiar (son of chidambaram) . it should be a nightmare indeed for any parent with some self respect to see his bramin daughter marrying a meat eating non bramin!

BUT MY QUESTION IS WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY SUBSECTS ALL OVER INDIA AMONG BRAMINS ITSELF, WHY LOOK OUTSIDE THE COMMUNITY?

 

[hariharan1972]

Segment perhaps ?

4. If tomorrow some magic medicine or cream is invented which can help you in changing the complexion towards fairer shades, would you still be interested in marrying only white brahmin woman ?

LQ,

I am sure you would have read Kotler.

If such a situation as above arises, then a law will be enacted to "segment" women into segments as below :

a. Ariel
b. Surf Excel
c. Wheel

The suitor can then make his choice according to his income levels - a la power soap ad - "yen varumanathirkketra tharamana bride" (women members kindly excuse me)

This is how we respect our women in India - After all "Pengal veetin kangal" isn't it

India must be the nation with the highest incidence of "colour blindness"

 

[lotus_quartz]

Kotler and I haven't interacted with each other for more than a decade (i.e., last I read Kotler was in 1996 under duress from my tormenting Profs.) so dunno whether I understood him rightly or not.

Kotler did mention something about segmentation of market in matrix form but did not do so in vertical stratification.

For a great majority of un-discerning commoners like me, there is no apparent difference between Ariel, Surf & wheel except that Ariel and Surf have MNC glamour and Wheel is designed to take the mat against Nirma (the desi enphant-terrible).

So, the issue is : Rt. Hon. Sir Vadivelu will go in for Surf or Wheel ?

My guess is if he still can not shake off the MNC glamour, he dives in for grabbing Surf or Ariel but otherwise he may eventually go for Wheel if has secret liking for 'desi taste' .

Any guesses from other members as to what our esteemed friend is likely to opt for ?

PS to V V: ...Aap Munh Maangi Dua aur Hum Ansuni Fariyaad Hain....
...Ek aur mulahija farmaieeye..."Hum tere shahr mein aaye hain musaafir ki tarah...."

LQ,

I am sure you would have read Kotler.

If such a situation as above arises, then a law will be enacted to "segment" women into segments as below :

a. Ariel
b. Surf Excel
c. Wheel

The suitor can then make his choice according to his income levels - a la power soap ad - "yen varumanathirkketra tharamana bride" (women members kindly excuse me)

This is how we respect our women in India - After all "Pengal veetin kangal" isn't it

India must be the nation with the highest incidence of "colour blindness"

 

[mrifan]

A bit pathetic

Mr. Vadivelu,


If you are looking at Brahmana women purely from a superficial angle like this, you should not expect any respect in return. Please remember there are no shortcuts in life. To cure your apparent inferiority complex, you should learn to work hard, stop depending upon doles handed out by politicians who prey upon your complexes, and try to earn your way in life. You may then find you do not need a "white-skinned Brahmana woman" for you and your children to do well in life. If you look down upon yourself, do not blame Brahmanas for looking down on people like you. Good luck.

I am not a brahmin. but my mother tongue tamil.. I m following discussion here.

Like views encouraging brahmin women to marry non brahmin men.

We like marrying white skinned brahmin women and our childrens
become white. we come up in society. thaz why.

thank you . hope more such views in this forum so that more brahmin women will marry people like us.

 

[vadivelu]

Hi just telling fact.. brahmin women a status symbol . many tell deiveega kaadal etcs . actually we only look for more beautiful girls and status symbols. no point in you people getting angry at me. I answer person called lotus qartz question1. Would you be equally interested in marrying any white skinned woman ?No. reason is other community people in India will not accept. example muslim women don’t marry outsiders . Their men wont allow them to . But Brahmin women easy to move with and easy to marry . so no problem. 2. You do not seem much interested in non-white Brahmin woman. Why ?Some Brhamin women not white but mostly they are beutifuller than non brhamin woman . so will go for them if butiful fair woman not there. But not interested in girls who are not good looking or fair. Iam only telling the truth here. Others may lie telling we look at heart. But it is not true.Men go for girl’s looks . girls go for men with power and money. This is truth.3. Is complexion the only aspect of your persoanlity and lifestyle where you feel the need to change ?Brhamisn ruled us for long. Marrying brhamin woman makes us feel better. We r not lower caste anymore. makes us feel we are rulesr now. So not just complexion but must be good lokking at least.4. If tomorrow some magic medicine or cream is invented which can help you in changing the complexion towards fairer shades, would you still be interested in marrying only white brahmin woman ? Marrying Brhamin women means we are now bettter than them. So makes us higher caste like them now. So equality in society. Other women not interested so.That medicine may take another 100 years bythat time all of us dead and gone. So just enjoy what you get now.5. Would you like women from your community to marry fair skinned Brahmin men ?Don’t know. our women dont like going other culture. They respect our culture. and our women also don’t like acting against their father and brothers likes.Personally , my sister already married to our aunts son. My sister respeact our culture and not liking going other culture. She is comfortable with our caste people only. Our caste women will not trust bramins because they know that they oppressed us many years.6. How do you propose going about the task ?Reservation is the way to bring euuality –makes us get power and money. So we get brhamn women and it completes our going up.It is very easy to move with brhamin women and many of my friends married brahmin women already . It was very easy. Just smile and keep talking to them and spend a lot of money . go to movies . go ouside city to other places for 2-3 days. That’s all. they say no problem expected from girls family. Even problem, register marrage. . Ok to adjust with non veg - only condition they don’t cook it at home. That’s all

 

[Chintana]

Sri Vadivelu,

My responses are in maroon italics.

Hi just telling fact.. brahmin women a status symbol . many tell deiveega kaadal etcs . actually we only look for more beautiful girls and status symbols. no point in you people getting angry at me. I answer person called lotus qartz question1. Would you be equally interested in marrying any white skinned woman ? No. reason is other community people in India will not accept. example muslim women don’t marry outsiders . Their men wont allow them to .

I will let Lotus Quartz answer this part.

But Brahmin women easy to move with and easy to marry . so no problem.

So first you say that Brahmin women are good looking and next you are saying they are easy to move with - what are you trying to say?


2. You do not seem much interested in non-white Brahmin woman. Why ?Some Brhamin women not white but mostly they are beutifuller than non brhamin woman . so will go for them if butiful fair woman not there. But not interested in girls who are not good looking or fair. Iam only telling the truth here. Others may lie telling we look at heart. But it is not true.Men go for girl’s looks . girls go for men with power and money. This is truth.

With due respect, this is only a partial truth. There are some people who do this but many, many others who go for true value.

We make up our opinions about the world based on the people we know. How many people can one really know? Family? Immediate family? A few friends? Usually any person arrives at an opinion about the whole world based only on this circle of people.

If your circle of people have made you believe this that is truly sad.



3. Is complexion the only aspect of your persoanlity and lifestyle where you feel the need to change ?Brhamisn ruled us for long.

Who said this? Who are you believing? Did you care to examine whether the person making this statement made a careful analysis of BOTH sides of the argument?

Is the person who made this statement benefitting by your belief in this statement? i.e., for example, if it is a political personality, is the person getting more votes because you believe this?

Please refer to my posts on the thread Hinduism vs. Rest - II. I have written a piece on the history of our culture in response to a person called Thangaraj (page 9, post #82; page 11, posts #108 and #109). Do read that and come back of you have more questions.


Marrying brhamin woman makes us feel better. We r not lower caste anymore. makes us feel we are rulesr now.

I am sorry you feel that way. I am sorry that revenge makes you feel better.

So not just complexion but must be good lokking at least.

Forget the Brahmin, non-Brahmin sentiment here for a moment.

I am just curious - is this what women mean to you Vadivelu? Just a body that has color, complexion and looks?


4. If tomorrow some magic medicine or cream is invented which can help you in changing the complexion towards fairer shades, would you still be interested in marrying only white brahmin woman ?

Confusing question. What are you asking?


Marrying Brhamin women means we are now bettter than them. So makes us higher caste like them now. So equality in society.

I am sorry that you think Brahminism is measured only by skin color.

Other women not interested so.

The women in your community/caste must feel really sorry to hear this.

I think whatever caste you belong to, is a good one. I am sure your forefathers were involved in some occupation which was based on values such as hard work, honesty and service to society.

I am also sure that some of your ways, not all, perhaps benefitted you in some way.

I would like to see everybody's culture preserved while changing our attitudes toward treating everybody equally.


That medicine may take another 100 years bythat time all of us dead and gone. So just enjoy what you get now.

Do you think this is how personal happiness gets built?

5. Would you like women from your community to marry fair skinned Brahmin men ?Don’t know. our women dont like going other culture. They respect our culture. and our women also don’t like acting against their father and brothers likes.Personally , my sister already married to our aunts son. My sister respeact our culture and not liking going other culture. She is comfortable with our caste people only.

Thank you for this information about your caste.

Our caste women will not trust bramins because they know that they oppressed us many years.

Please read the posts I referred you to and come back with more questions.

6. How do you propose going about the task ?Reservation is the way to bring euuality –makes us get power and money. So we get brhamn women and it completes our going up.It is very easy to move with brhamin women and many of my friends married brahmin women already . It was very easy. Just smile and keep talking to them and spend a lot of money . go to movies . go ouside city to other places for 2-3 days. That’s all. they say no problem expected from girls family. Even problem, register marrage. . Ok to adjust with non veg - only condition they don’t cook it at home. That’s all.

Your opinion of Brahmin women is quite eye-opening. Thank you.

I hope you also recognize that not all Brahmin women are like that.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Dear Mr. VV:-

It is a positive thing that you have have frankly poured out your thought process.

I leave it to the more erudite members to remove your misconceptions and the misinformation fed to you.

Smiling, talking and spending money (on girls) may work successfully in luring away the less discerning among the fairer sex (including from brahmin community). Don't you think you are sacrificing quality in the bargain ? Everything that glitters is not gold.

Anyways ! Every one has heard the old saying ..."you get what you deserve..". and it works both ways !

 

[Kothai]

Are we going to take such accusations?

Dear Chintana,
I wonder how you could answer Mr. Vadivelu with such a gentle and calm mood. Hats off! May be because you might have come across such people many times.

 

[hariharan1972]

You need help

3. Is complexion the only aspect of your persoanlity and lifestyle where you feel the need to change ?

Brhamisn ruled us for long. Marrying brhamin woman makes us feel better. We r not lower caste anymore. makes us feel we are rulesr now. So not just complexion but must be good lokking at least.

Mr Vadivelu (apt name, i must say)

After 40 years of Dravidian nay non-brahmin rule, if you haven't got rid of your supposedly "lower caste" mindset, haven't realised your power to rule, haven't realised the huge ground that non-brahmins in general have covered in every sphere of life, i pity you !!!!!

If you have such staunch anti-brahmanical feelings, you don't seem to be realising that you are "STILL" depending on the brahmins whom you hate (to marry you) for your emancipation !!!!!

Classic Catch 22 eh ?

It is not my style to get personal but 'desperate times need desperate measures' - so here i go : You need psychic help.

[If you live in chennai, ---------]

Admin - I apologise.

Postscript : I was reading a book just as i am writing this. I came across this quote by Eleanor Roosevelt : "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent". Vadivelu, only if you could realise.

 

[Kothai]

Mr. Vadivelu,
How can you call your opinions as facts? Fact is one which is proved and accepted by all.
I think your post is edited and personal info deleted.
Anyhow, can you say all these things to your friends' wives who are from brahmin community? I want to see their reaction.
"It is very easy to move with brhamin women and many of my friends married brahmin women already . It was very easy. Just smile and keep talking to them and spend a lot of money . go to movies . go ouside city to other places for 2-3 days."
How can you generalise anything based on your knowledge?
From your posting I could know that you have no respect for women. Have you not seen any intercaste or inter-religion marriages other than brahmin girl and Nonbrahmin boy?
I respect your opinion that women of your caste respect your culture.
But I don't think that will be the reason for your women not marrying our men. Marrying a brahmin boy means losing all the benefits of reservation. So why shouldn't I say that it is the reason?
I pity you sir, you don't believe in love, marriage, commitment and everything. How many days will that marriage lost which is based on mere outer looks?
If these are your values then what will you impart in your children?
Do you mean we don't respect our culture? If we are so, why do you go for brahmin girls, whom you cannot trust, who doesn't have any values, who can move with anyone easily, etc.? Merely for satisfying your ego by thinking that you are dominating a brahmin woman? If any brahmin girl marries you after hearing all these dialogues of you, then we will not consider her a woman at all.

I'm sorry if my views are offensive.

 

[Chintana]

Dear Hari,

This particular sentence I found to be inflammatory. I had to edit it out. You recognized that you were making a personal attack - I commend you for that. But we do not want to do that - however much we feel like not helping it.

Best regards,
Chintana

Mr Vadivelu (apt name, i must say)

[If you live in chennai, ---------]

Admin - I apologise.

 

[Chintana]

Dear Kothai,

Thank you for your good words.

No. I don't have experience dealing with such people in my day-to-day life.

The reason I was not able to get angry was that many people like Mr. Vadivelu live in ignorance. What was once a feeling of awe towards Brahmins has now been turned to a mixture of hatred and disrespect, thanks to the politicians and media.

The silence of the Brahmin community is partly to be blamed for this. So I couldn't get angry. This person needed information.

Also this person needed to understand that if he makes statements like these in a Brahmin forum members won't keep quiet. Many people assume that if they make statements like these Brahmins will begin to feel guilty and feel bad and they will keep quiet. I wanted to establish that is not the case.

Non-brahmins also do not have the experience of encountering logical statements that make sense - statements made in a balanced way. They are only used to consuming the hatred offered to them by politicians and the media.

Non-brahmins have a problem trusting brahmins. And many brahmins behave in less than ideal ways, providing fuel for statements such as these. So I understand where some of this comes from. Since some of the fault is with our own members no point in getting angry with someone who points out some of the shallowness. But this person has not understood (like so many others) that every community has strong adherents and weak adherents. One cannot point to weak adherents and make statements about the entire community.

In other words, what Mr. Vadivelu has expressed is a sad lack of independent thinking.

I couldn't get angry with someone I pitied.

Dear Chintana,
I wonder how you could answer Mr. Vadivelu with such a gentle and calm mood. Hats off! May be because you might have come across such people many times.

 

[bagya]

very rude!

Enna Mr Vadivelu
Eththanai per killambi irukkeenga ithu mathiri? brahmin ladies na avvallavu illakkaarama? Entha pallikkoodathulla padicheenga? penngallai mathikkum nagarigam kooda theriyalaye? Entha brahmin pennavathu neenga propose pannumbothu 'chee po' appadinnu sollittangalla? Konjam yosiyunga, sir. Ungallai thiruthikkonga. Thamizh le villakkama solliyirukken. Ippo kandippa puriyumnu ninaikkiren.

vanakkam
Bagya:nono: