Some Interesting questions

[NARAS]

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sirs - there is so much of irrationality in the views of vadivelu, i am sure he must be a 'rationalist'!!!

 

[Chintana]

Insult

Dear Posters,

Clearly Mr. Vadivelu has insulted Brahmins, particularly Brahmin women.

The anger expressed by all of you who responded to him is valid.

Please be careful to see that you point your views/arguments at the ISSUE and not the person.

It is possible to release a missile by way of a response only if we focus on the issue. The moment we focus on the person we lose our position of strength.

We discuss many sensitive issues in this forum. Some of them like this one will inflame us. Part of today's role for Brahmins is to be able to break our silence without breaking ties with others - in other words - we must try to make a point without making an enemy.

As you have demonstrated we each have differing degrees of tolerance for nonsense.

But let not anger get in the way of the point you are making.

Best regards,
Chintana

 

[KRS]

Dear Sir Vadivelu Ji,

I hope I can raise a couple of questions for you that you can answer. I am raising these questions in earnest - I just want to understand where you are coming from:

1. You write: Our caste women will not trust bramins because they know that they oppressed us many years. May I ask what these 'oppressions' are/were?

2. You also talk about 'higher' and 'lower' castes. May I ask you about your definitions of such descriptions? I hope you do not say that these are the 'government' descriptions! Once you define them, may I ask you to tell us which 'caste' you belong to?

3. Obviously you were raised as a Tamilian. In my opinion our (yours and mine) Tamil culture would never allow a proud Tamil to write in the demeaning manner you did about the Brahmin ladies. My question is this: If you show your postings to your parents and grand parents, would they be very appreciative of your expressed ideas? Do you think what you have expressed is supported by our common Tamil culture?

Just three very simple questions and I would really like to hear your answers.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Kothai]

I'm very anxious to see Mr.VV's reaction to all our missiles.

 

[ramsav]

You are right.Iyyers do out number Iyyengars.You will find the Ayyer Iyyengar divide among brahmins in Tamilnadu alone.After the advent of Ramanuja, Iyyengars emerged as a seperate sect of Brahmins in Tamilnad.Population wise Ayyers are more as they are the original brahmin community.

 

[Kothai]

Hello Mr.Ramsav,
I think you've put your posting in the wrong thread. Here some other hot discussion is going on.
:focus:

 

[mrifan]

Hmmm

It looks like there is a straw man...Mr.XXXXXXX, but unfortunately you gave it away. Maybe the end justifies the means?

I'm very anxious to see Mr.VV's reaction to all our missiles.

 

[Chintana]

It looks like there is a straw man...Mr.XXXXXXX, but unfortunately you gave it away. Maybe the end justifies the means?

Actually I didn't understand what you meant.

 

[mrifan]

ID in PM

I will send you a PM with the person's identity

Actually I didn't understand what you meant.

 

[maruti]

"It is very easy to move with brhamin women and many of my friends married brahmin women already . It was very easy. Just smile and keep talking to them and spend a lot of money . go to movies . go ouside city to other places for 2-3 days."
How can you generalise anything based on your knowledge?

Actually, this is true of all women, not just brahmin women. Women want money, they don't care if the guy is insensitive and rude, as long as he's got money. That's why you often find women being mean and horrible to sensitive, caring men.

 

[Kothai]

It looks like there is a straw man...Mr.XXXXXXX, but unfortunately you gave it away. Maybe the end justifies the means?

Even I couldn't get you.

 

[Kothai]

Oh God, one more misogynist

Actually, this is true of all women, not just brahmin women. Women want money, they don't care if the guy is insensitive and rude, as long as he's got money. That's why you often find women being mean and horrible to sensitive, caring men.

Maruti,
You are again generalising as VV but taking a broader area. Are you saying this out of your personal experience? (By the way did you propose to your NI girlfriend or not? Does it have any relevance to your opinion?)
Do you have this same opinion about your mother,sisters and other women of your family?
Chintanaji, what is this? Why are we being accused by our counterparts for no valid reason? Are we, women doing the same? I haven't seen any woman member of this group accusing men on anything. Are men avatars of any kind? Don't they have their own negative shades? Are we generalising them?
I think we, womenfolk should unite first and fight against these people, and then concentrate on any other issues.:rant:

 

[Bhooma]

Ofcourse Kothai .. he is talking out of his personal experience and maybe found this medium to vent out his feelings !!!

My argument would be --- let the poor man be ... we women are proud for what we are , what we have achieved and there is no place for people like Maruti ... atleast i wouldnt want to give any credence to what he is writing

 

[Kothai]

Dr. Bhoomaji,
Even I thought to leave it off. But I got fed up of such comments. I can't stand men accusing women like this for no rhyme or reason. That too from a brahmin man.Because I think brahmin men are more educated, broad minded and give equal rights to women as compared to Non-Brahmin men.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Being the originator of this thread, I find that we have completely deviated from the main line of discussion.

The offensive views expressed by some posters are reflective their own quality, socio-economic background and cultural upbringing. I wonder whether their sisters and mothers agree with them or not.

O Lord, forgive them for they do not know what they are saying...

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

Paramah-I-msas ...

It has been quite apparent for quite some time that Maruti is a malcontent and misanthrope. For some obscure reason the administrators have been indulgent of his egregious behavior.
It seems to me that some hope to reform this Paramah-I-msa (and a host of other ills!) through "spiritual sadhana".
To each his own ...

 

[Chintana]

Maruti,

You've crossed the line.

This is an extremely offensive message against women.

Until you issue an apology I will not allow you to post anything. Every single posting of yours between now and the time you issue your apology will be deleted.

If I don't see an apology within 48 hours I will ban you.

You are on watch starting now.

Chintana.

Actually, this is true of all women, not just brahmin women. Women want money, they don't care if the guy is insensitive and rude, as long as he's got money. That's why you often find women being mean and horrible to sensitive, caring men.

 

[Chintana]

Unnecessary sarcasm

BAAM,

If you need to convey something to me directly you can always use the Private Message option.

Such sarcasm is unnecessary and is quite unappreciated. [The off-hand reference to Paramahasa and the term 'spiritual sadhana', I assume are meant to address me as I am the only Administrator who has written about these concepts - your message in general was aimed at the Administrators]

The next time please be specific about who are are referencing/addressing. And I'd recommend that you be careful about making comments about the administrators in the forum; private message should have been the way to go.

For the benefit of those who might see this public exchange of what is perhaps a private difference in opinion:

Maruti has posted some borderline offensive posting in the past - but has also checked himself subsequently when he knew he was being called upon it.

As several of you know I have banned offensive users almost as soon as they began their first posting - e.g., sizzler and his various avatars; Dattaswami a.k.a., Anil Anthony. (If you don't know that these people existed it is because yours truly has been keeping a careful eye on the happenings here).

That said, I do believe in tolerance only because a NO is much more powerful from a person who can say YES. The elites amongst us don't have too many supporters because, in my view, they have been too quick to condemn people. Here we are trying to build a community - some of it involves intellectual discussion - some of it involves just giving people a chance to speak/vent/voice their opinion (in an unoffensive way) - we need to learn how to support one another regardless of our stripe (the non-Brahmins score wayyy over us in this regard).

Well, I believe in giving people a chance. Not too many - maybe one or two. But I believe that chance needs to be given. People need to have the experience of being within a responsive community and learn to take responsibility for their words.

Many of you have given me the heads up about several annoying posters. I have checked each of those posters' contributions each time you wrote me. If I felt that the posting was offensive I took appropriate action. If I felt that the poster needed to be on watch I did so.

In the ultimate analysis I did and am doing what I believe is fair.

Whether I am motivated by Paramahansa or anybody else should not be anybody's concern as long as I believe fairness is done and am able defend my actions to my fellow administrators.

Regards,
Chintana

It has been quite apparent for quite some time that Maruti is a malcontent and misanthrope. For some obscure reason the administrators have been indulgent of his egregious behavior.
It seems to me that some hope to reform this Paramah-I-msa (and a host of other ills!) through "spiritual sadhana".
To each his own ...

 

[Chintana]

Sri LQ,


Being the originator of this thread, I find that we have completely deviated from the main line of discussion.

You have brought this point up at least one other time. It is quite natural for threads to pick up different directions depending on what kind of interest is generated. That is the nature of discussions in general and online fora in particular.

The offensive views expressed by some posters are reflective their own quality, socio-economic background and cultural upbringing. I wonder whether their sisters and mothers agree with them or not.

O Lord, forgive them for they do not know what they are saying...

Regards,
Chintana

 

[silverfox]

I just happened to read this thread.

To Vadivelu:
You remind me of some of the American blacks who want to date/marry a white woman, so that they could feel better!
Maruti:
You definitely have crossed the line. Chintana is absolutely right in issuing that warning. I for one will not stand for that kind of nonsense written about women.

Now, lotus_quartz, what was this thread all about to begin with?!:crazy:
I forgot!! (I am just kidding!)

 

[lotus_quartz]

For the benefit of one and all, let me re-post the original questions:

1. Why Iyers outnumber Iyengars by more than 10:1 ?

2. Besides Iyers and Iyengars, are there any other type of Tamil brahmins also ?

3. What are the views of Forum members on inter marriages between Iyers and Iyengars ?

4. What are the views of Forum members on inter marriages between Tamil brahmins and brahmins from other states (Karnataka, Andhra, Maharashtra, UP etc. ) if such alliances are otherwise ok from point of view of Gothram, Star etc ?

In retrospect, I find the above to be a set of dangerous questions. It has led to dispute between Iyers and Iyengars to such an extent that one panditji has decided to quit this forum !

Is situation ke liye kuch naghme mulahiza farmaiye:

Koi hum dum, na raha, koi sahara na raha, hum kisike na rahe, koi hamaara na raha....

Chalte Chalte, yunhi koi mil gaya tha..sare raah chalte chalte...

Now, lotus_quartz, what was this thread all about to begin with?!:crazy:
I forgot!! (I am just kidding!)

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

Sarcasm ...

Dear Chintana,

It appears that you were stung by my post. May I very humbly suggest that perhaps Kothai, Kashyap, NARAS, RajivGunja and a few others may have smarted as much under Maruti's baiting?
In my world schema those who are polite, courteous, and play by the rules get pride of place.
Malcontents and misanthropes take a back-seat.
If this smacks of elitism - that is regrettable.
I did submit that each of us is entitled to our world-view ("To each his own ...")
With regards,
born_again_aiyer_maami

 

[Chintana]

Dear BAAM,

My responses in maroon italics below.

Dear Chintana,

It appears that you were stung by my post.

I don't know that I was stung. Mildly annoyed at the lack of direct reference, perhaps. If I want to shoot I will point and shoot. I won't leave it to my reader to 'guess' who my comments are being aimed at. To me that is a nonsensical habit, rampant in Indian culture, not particularly Brahmin culture - as if the respondent's ability to pick up that comment is supposed to be some kind of a marker of that person's intelligence. To me that's a waste of time.

Besides, to not address the person specifically, to me, is lack of courage - so I tend to think the person making that comment is a coward.

Also your posting was directly aimed at the admin and the tone of your posting was sarcastic - you were saying it is unfortunate that people think they can reform the world with their spiritual beliefs. That bit was unnecessary.

Since you directly addressed the admin in your posting I rose to answer it.


May I very humbly suggest that perhaps Kothai, Kashyap, NARAS, RajivGunja and a few others may have smarted as much under Maruti's baiting?

Recent posters such as Kothai have voiced their outrage at this specific posting. That's one of the reasons I took action.

Again, Kashyap, NARAS, Rajiv Gunja and others were hurt by Maruti's posting - that's one of the reasons I took action then.

Whatever posting was offensive by Maruti has been checked.

So as a moderator I've been doing my job. In fact, some posters wrote me saying they thought the process was fair.

But none of the posters you mentioned criticized the admin's actions by commenting on their personal beliefs sarcastically.


In my world schema those who are polite, courteous, and play by the rules get pride of place.

In my world those who are polite and courteous don't necessarily have to play by the rules. I care two hoots for 'pride of place'. I am just interested in doing the right thing according to me. And believe in letting others do what they believe is the right thing (as long as it doesnt bother anyone else).

One can and perhaps should have unconventional thinking but that does not mean they don't have to follow etiquette and basic standards of treating other people well.

No amount of brain power will justify an insult in my scheme of things.

Malcontents and misanthropes take a back-seat.

No. Each gets his/her due - at least in my world. I prefer to not be too quick to condemn people.

If this smacks of elitism - that is regrettable.

I don't know what falls under your definition of elitism. Elitism per se, as in erudition, is a good thing - something I am very comfortable with - otherwise I wouldn't be in the academic world. There are several of us in this forum who are quite elitistic (or erudite) but prefer not to use it as a personal description - we just use it as a definition of our actions.

But if elitism is used as an excuse to not treat people well that is a red flag.

Our community has lost out a lot because of their snobbery and we are interested in keeping the air free of such sentiments.

I did submit that each of us is entitled to our world-view ("To each his own ...")

Yes, but how? By saying that there are some of us in the admin who believe that we can reform the world through spiritual sadhana.

Bottomline - my personal beliefs should have never featured in your expression of discontent.

They are nobody's business except my own.

We each have our own style of functioning and nobody has any right to push another person. Certainly not the admin.

If you want to see things change on an action/execution level then propose a policy change and submit it for consideration by all of the admin. If the idea is agreed upon by everybody it will be adopted.

If you have a specific issue with a specific individual write a Private Message to that person.

You basically need to understand that people need to be respected in general; the admin folks are no exception. You can't be sarcastic about their actions as their credibility is an important factor for building this community.

Your comment came across as a thinly veiled snide remark that reminded me of a strong Tanjorean flavor (that I am all too familiar with). I happen to believe, like my fellow administrators, that using elitism as an excuse for not treating people well is a bad part of Brahminism that needs to go away.

That principle will be executed in this forum.


With regards,
born_again_aiyer_maami

Regards,
Chintana

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

?????

Dear Chintana,
I skimmed through your post.
I did not post with the intent to trap you/trip you up. I wrote in jest, it was mere word-play. I had no idea that you would react in the manner that you did.
You may call me a snide, you may call me an elitist, you may call me a snob, and you may claim I am from Timbuktu ... - it really does'nt matter.
You are also welcome to YOUR CONCEPTION of what Brahminism SHOULD be.
IF it flies in the face of millions of years of evolution, THEN your conception of Brahminism will NOT survive.
Suggested readings:
"The Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin
"The Moral Animal" by Robert Wright
"Good Natured" by Franz de Waal
"Chimpanzee Politics" by Franz de Waal

Ekam sat, vipra bahuda vadhanti!

born_again_aiyer_maami

 

[Chintana]

Thanks for your views.

I hope the larger message in my post is not lost - i.e., this forum insists on members showing respect for people in their language/posts.

This forum does not also tolerate a pushy attitude.

Regards,
Chintana

--
Comments on the remainder of your posting.

Dear BAAM,

Dear Chintana,
I skimmed through your post.
I did not post with the intent to trap you/trip you up. I wrote in jest, it was mere word-play.

A word-play? Pointing to a person's personal beliefs and citing it as inadequate in resolving an admin issue is jest to you?

Sorry, we have very different senses of humor then.

First of all, this was perhaps the first time you addressed me directly in a posting - I don't remember any other time - other than participating in a discussion on Shankaracharya - there too I don't believe your reference was to me.

I'd use humor on people that I have exchanged ideas with in some way - and make sure that my sense of humor is indeed theirs as well.

If you had something to say about my personal beliefs that is a different issue.

If you had something to say about my job as a moderator that is a different issue.

You can't use my personal beliefs to joke about my job as a moderator of this forum.


I had no idea that you would react in the manner that you did.

That's the reason one must establish a sense of whether it is ok to say such things to a person.

Clearly it was not ok with me.

Since you hadn't indulged in any previous exchange with me I didn't know you enough for you to take such liberties with me.

Your comment is not exactly my idea of introduction.

You may call me a snide, you may call me an elitist, you may call me a snob, and you may claim I am from Timbuktu ... - it really does'nt matter.

I expected this comment would come if my post was not read carefully.

If you need to, please go back and check.

I didn't CALL you anything. I said your attitude 'came across' as something and 'reminded' me of something.

Also I didn't call you an elitist - you have been calling yourself that.

I merely wondered at your definition of it.

You could be from Timbuktu - I don't think it matters.

An attitude is an attitude; if it is inappropriate then it is inappropriate. Period.

You are also welcome to YOUR CONCEPTION of what Brahminism SHOULD be.

If I had had any definite ideas of what Brahminism should be then I would have posted that dogmatically in the Who are we? thread.

I merely reinforced what is commonly accepted as appropriate behavior - i.e., showing respect for all.

That is not Brahminism. That is just standards for good behavior. And I didn't come up with them.


IF it flies in the face of millions of years of evolution, THEN your conception of Brahminism will NOT survive.

Your interpretation of my views is way off the mark. You probably need to read CAREFULLY what I posted as opposed to skimming it.

This is not about evolution. This is about good behavior. Unfortunately Brahmins do have a history of not treating others well (this to me is the history of oppression - not denial of opportunities as it is made out to be). We want to rectify this habit moving forward (please refer the mission statement).


Suggested readings:
"The Origin of Species" by Charles Darwin
"The Moral Animal" by Robert Wright
"Good Natured" by Franz de Waal
"Chimpanzee Politics" by Franz de Waal

Ekam sat, vipra bahuda vadhanti!

Here you go again - that 'I know better than you' attitude!

To specifically address your 'list' - why am I not surprised by the lack of a single Indian name in your list? Anytime we are confused we have to rush to the West for our solutions.

In the context of our discussion, no Western mind can capture what we know about our community. They are allergic to the word 'moral' but whole-heartedly endorse the word 'ethics'. Ethics, to me, is a set of convenient morals. I prefer to choose what morals I find convenient. I don't want to be told what to choose by a Western mind.

I believe we will do ourselves well if we try to shake off the need to grab a Western reference to mend ourselves instead of looking within ourselves. The British seem to have left India in name only.

Suggested thoughts:

1. I will respect all persons no matter whether they are as intelligent as me or not.

2. I will not push people.

3. I will not open an introduction with a joke with anybody without understanding their sense of humor.

4. I will not tell another person how to do his/her job.

5. I will read the other person's views CAREFULLY (and not skim it) before trying to interpret it because I could be so wrong.

6. I will respect the appropriate authority of any person who has RESPONSIBILITY.

What is really interesting is this: I have basically said that I was uncomfortable with your remark - granted my discomfort was not what you anticipated. But now that you know I am uncomfortable and you've tried to establish in your own way that it was not your intention, what is needed here is an apology, not defense. To me, it is just a question of - "I am sorry; it won't happen again"; that would be the end of the discussion. But I find it interesting that it is hard for you to do that. Like you said, "each to his own..."

born_again_aiyer_maami

Best regards,
Chintana