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Shudra can become a Brahmin

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Mr. Vaagmi this assertion that the terms Brahmin and Shudra can be used in a benign way is belied by the very title of this thread and the message Mr. LS is trying to convey in this tread. Why must a Shudra try to become a Brahmin unless the state of Brahminhood is superior to that of Shudrahood? It is all the more insulting to say that even a Shudra can be virtuous and if so he will be considered Brahmin. Take a look at the following passage reeking with "totemic upper and lower tags".

From OP:
The python asked, “But this goes against the principle of four varnas/ castes. For even a Shudra may have all these virtues. Virtues cannot be the monopoly of any caste.” Yudhisthira replied in unambiguous language, “Indeed ,if a Shudra is characterised by all these virtues, he is to be defined as a Brahmin. And if a Brahmin lacks them then he is to be regarded as a Shudra.”

IMO, the whole story of Nahusha is a case of establishing Brahmnical superiority over Kshatriya, to tell Kshatriyas to watch out how they treat Brahmins.

Cheers!

Dear Mr. Nara,

Keeping aside emotions and judgmental position taking and posturing, do you sincerely believe that there is nothing which differentiates brahminhood, kshatriyahood, vyshyahood and shudrahood from each other? If your answer is just yes, I have nothing to argue with you.

If you accept that these are groups with distinct characteristics, value systems, cultures and practices then we can discuss this further. Before that let me make this clear. I have no superior-inferior, desirable-undesirable, upper-lower totemic positions assigned to these Brahminhood, kshatriyahood etc…. To me there are many desirable and undesirable things in all these groups.

My point is that we are turning sensitive to such an extent that we would like to remove the word shudra from the language. I do not understand the reason for such extreme intolerance. Can we not speak about yadava and kurmi without in any way trivializing the people?

I do not believe that the story of Nahusha had any diabolical conspiracy behind it. To me it is just a story told at a time and a context when some of the qualities of the group called Brahmins were thought to be more desirable than those of the group called shudras which led to the position that shudras may like to become Brahmins. So let us discuss this story free from emotions and take a cool look at it. This is my request. My mother used to say நெருப்புன்னலே சுட்டுடாது. If you are particular you may use the term Devas or angels to represent shudras. I have no objection. I will still deal with your posts. Thanks.
 
Keeping aside emotions and judgmental position taking and posturing, do you sincerely believe that there is nothing which differentiates brahminhood, kshatriyahood, vyshyahood and shudrahood from each other? If your answer is just yes, I have nothing to argue with you.

Why can we not treat a human being as a human being. Why do you have to pigeonhole, that person to your preconceived ideas. So if you are outside India, how would be judge the characteristics of other individuals. These birth based caste may have had a purpose in stereotyping the person's characteristics at one time. But now we do not profess our caste based duties and value. Why should be expect others to follow that rule. I know India with the vote bank politics the dying caste system has been revived, but why must we follow it in private life.
 
Why can we not treat a human being as a human being. Why do you have to pigeonhole, that person to your preconceived ideas. So if you are outside India, how would be judge the characteristics of other individuals. These birth based caste may have had a purpose in stereotyping the person's characteristics at one time. But now we do not profess our caste based duties and value. Why should be expect others to follow that rule. I know India with the vote bank politics the dying caste system has been revived, but why must we follow it in private life.

If anyone of the members arguing that brahminhood, kshatriyahood, vyshyahood and shudrahood get differentiated from each other by distinct characteristic/s and that the group labelled brahmana (by mere birth) ipso facto, comes in possession of certain very noble characteristics - which is the latent message in the Nahusha-Yudhishtira story of LS, then I will request such members to study our scriptures wide and deep.

There are many stories (of equal authenticity as the Nahusha-Yudhishtira one, which bring out the unsavoury characteristics of brahmins. Why, even the Kathopanishad (vAjasravasa father of Naciketas) gives one example. Again the last sookta of the SAkala samhitA of the Rigveda, which is commonly known as "aikamatya sookta" seems to be a mild rebuke to the greedy priests who were not content with whatever they received in the yAgas and admonishes them as,—

"O! All those who praise (stotas)! May you all walk unitedly! May you speak with one voice! May your minds have unison in thinking (i.e., no difference in views)! Just as the devas of the ancient days (or, the ancient devas) accept the share of oblations due to each of them, you also be satisfied with the share of riches for each."

May the chanting or the secret talks of the worshippers (stotās, or priests) be of one tune. Let their meeting be one of unity. Let their minds, citta & antaḥkaraṇa also be in unison and with the same aim. For the sake of unity among you I recite this. Similarly I give oblations of boiled rice (“caru”चरु in Sanskrit) and sacrificial cakes (puroḍāśa पुरोडाश –which morphed into the later ‘parotta’) of similar type. (That is, there is no difference in the quality or quantity of caru or puroḍāśa in the oblations to different devas.)"

Hence, all people are the same, brahmins no better than the panchamas except that the former have an unnecessary headweight arising out of some questionable mentions in certain scriptures.

 
Why can we not treat a human being as a human being. Why do you have to pigeonhole, that person to your preconceived ideas. So if you are outside India, how would be judge the characteristics of other individuals. These birth based caste may have had a purpose in stereotyping the person's characteristics at one time. But now we do not profess our caste based duties and value. Why should be expect others to follow that rule. I know India with the vote bank politics the dying caste system has been revived, but why must we follow it in private life.

Dear Mr. Prasad,

That is a commendable exercise at grandstanding. Please refer to my post #67. You will get an idea of my views on this. Thank you.
 
.....Keeping aside emotions and judgmental position taking and posturing, do you sincerely believe that there is nothing which differentiates brahminhood, kshatriyahood, vyshyahood and shudrahood from each other?
Dear Vaagmi, There is plenty of evidence to show these "hood"s are social and cultural constructs and there is an inseparable totemic low and high built in. Strip away these social artifacts and we all are human beings with widely different attributes, aptitudes, likes/dislikes, etc., yet inherently the same.

If you accept that these are groups with distinct characteristics, value systems, cultures and practices then we can discuss this further. Before that let me make this clear. I have no superior-inferior, desirable-undesirable, upper-lower totemic positions assigned to these Brahminhood, kshatriyahood etc…. To me there are many desirable and undesirable things in all these groups.
Given you have no superior-inferior positions, please let me know what you think LS is trying to say here in this thread. What do you make of the claim, "even" Shudras can be virtuous? What about the principle that if a Shudra is virtuous he can be considered a Brahmin and if a Brahmin is not virtuous he would be considered Shudra. Do you think such principles are consistent with your declaration that you are no superior-inferior positions?

My point is that we are turning sensitive to such an extent that we would like to remove the word shudra from the language. I do not understand the reason for such extreme intolerance. Can we not speak about yadava and kurmi without in any way trivializing the people?
Caste based talk cannot be anything but one that trivializes the "other" caste-group. I find any caste-centric talk like the one LS is engaging in very counterproductive and dangerous, not to mention supremacist and tribalistic. I have already explained the reason behind the "intolerance" with what is being peddled by LS.

Cheers!
 
Dear Mr. Prasad,

That is a commendable exercise at grandstanding. Please refer to my post #67. You will get an idea of my views on this. Thank you.
There was no grandstanding on my part, and your post#67 does not change my opinion about your POV.
 
1. All naras are human, except those born as vanaras. What is the meaning of 'treat as human being'; sinners for missionaries and infidels for jehadis - are not humans or not?

2. Varnas and jatis were respected in the past and have existed for ever in our society. Only the foreign invasions have devalued the system, generated animosity between the native people; and this is fanned and used by politicians, west influenced thinkers and opportunists.

3. There are millions of people who value and respect their jatis and have equal respect for other jatis. If everyone has respect for his jati and the jati followed by his fellow beings, there will be no issue.

4. Of course, one is free to renounce his jati and do what he wants, except denigrate brahmins or others, who respect and follow their inclinations. Who is stopping him or her?

5. Varna-kula-jati system is deeply inscribed in our, bharatavasis', makeup and mindset. It will not go away. Jati is a reality and jati bedam is a mindset. Differentiation is natural, discrimination is man made.

6. Jati and kula aacharam is both private and community oriented and practiced at both levels.


Why can we not treat a human being as a human being. Why do you have to pigeonhole, that person to your preconceived ideas. So if you are outside India, how would be judge the characteristics of other individuals. These birth based caste may have had a purpose in stereotyping the person's characteristics at one time. But now we do not profess our caste based duties and value. Why should be expect others to follow that rule. I know India with the vote bank politics the dying caste system has been revived, but why must we follow it in private life.
 
1. All naras are human, except those born as vanaras. What is the meaning of 'treat as human being'; sinners for missionaries and infidels for jehadis - are not humans or not?

2. Varnas and jatis were respected in the past and have existed for ever in our society. Only the foreign invasions have devalued the system, generated animosity between the native people; and this is fanned and used by politicians, west influenced thinkers and opportunists.

3. There are millions of people who value and respect their jatis and have equal respect for other jatis. If everyone has respect for his jati and the jati followed by his fellow beings, there will be no issue.

4. Of course, one is free to renounce his jati and do what he wants, except denigrate brahmins or others, who respect and follow their inclinations. Who is stopping him or her?

5. Varna-kula-jati system is deeply inscribed in our, bharatavasis', makeup and mindset. It will not go away. Jati is a reality and jati bedam is a mindset. Differentiation is natural, discrimination is man made.

6. Jati and kula aacharam is both private and community oriented and practiced at both levels.

Obviously you failed to read the OP and other post in this thread, and jumped with both feet and landed on hard surface. I respect all of God's creation. I do not put hierarchies. You keep dividing us, what is your problem with unity.
 
Unity in diversity. Simple thoughts elude some.


Obviously you failed to read the OP and other post in this thread, and jumped with both feet and landed on hard surface. I respect all of God's creation. I do not put hierarchies. You keep dividing us, what is your problem with unity.
 
Dear Sarang ji,

My answers in blue.

1. All naras are human, except those born as vanaras. What is the meaning of 'treat as human being'; sinners for missionaries and infidels for jehadis - are not humans or not?

Human =Homo Sapien

Everyone is equal in the eyes of God..so all Homo Sapiens deserve their due respect whether he is a Pamara Homa Sapien or a Homa Savant.


2. Varnas and jatis were respected in the past and have existed for ever in our society. Only the foreign invasions have devalued the system, generated animosity between the native people; and this is fanned and used by politicians, west influenced thinkers and opportunists.

Yes..you are right..past is past..times change.

3. There are millions of people who value and respect their jatis and have equal respect for other jatis. If everyone has respect for his jati and the jati followed by his fellow beings, there will be no issue.

If this is true then why we have statements that "A Shudra can become a Brahmin"?


4. Of course, one is free to renounce his jati and do what he wants, except denigrate brahmins or others, who respect and follow their inclinations. Who is stopping him or her?

Questioning Jati/Varna ideology does not = to denigrating Brahmins.

I have noted many Indians become defensive when questioned about lifestyle.
So far most Indian celebrities on foreign talk shows have become defensively rude when asked "Do you stay with your parents"

Instead of explaining to the west what a joint family system and Indian values are..the Indian celebrities give replies like 'Oh unlike the west we do not have to make appointments with our parents for dinner"

When faced with a question..people appreciate an answer and not defensiveness.


5. Varna-kula-jati system is deeply inscribed in our, bharatavasis', makeup and mindset. It will not go away. Jati is a reality and jati bedam is a mindset. Differentiation is natural, discrimination is man made.

Nope you are wrong...meet me..I do not have Varna-Kula-Jati mindset..now dont say I am PIO and know nuts about Indian culture etc.I have ticked off enough of my relatives who still practice Varna-Kula-Jati mindset..that is when their kids marry an Indian they want to know caste of the person but when their kids marry out of the race..why no one asks a Chinese what caste are you?

All I feel that we should respect each person in this world based on virtue he/she displays.

You are right that Jati Bedam is a mindset..hence Adi Shankara sang "Na Me Jati Beda"

6. Jati and kula aacharam is both private and community oriented and practiced at both levels.

Let me add..it is also a political oriented affair.
 
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The caste system has always been used by some humans to gain some advantage in life. Previously it was used by some to preserve their land, influence and government patronage. Now it is used by some to reserve seats in educational institutions and government service.

Just human nature, to try to find some advantage to ensure better odds of survival for self and progeny. It is not something handed down by God.
 
Dear Vaagmi, There is plenty of evidence to show these "hood"s are social and cultural constructs and there is an inseparable totemic low and high built in. Strip away these social artifacts and we all are human beings with widely different attributes, aptitudes, likes/dislikes, etc., yet inherently the same.

Given you have no superior-inferior positions, please let me know what you think LS is trying to say here in this thread. What do you make of the claim, "even" Shudras can be virtuous? What about the principle that if a Shudra is virtuous he can be considered a Brahmin and if a Brahmin is not virtuous he would be considered Shudra. Do you think such principles are consistent with your declaration that you are no superior-inferior positions?

Caste based talk cannot be anything but one that trivializes the "other" caste-group. I find any caste-centric talk like the one LS is engaging in very counterproductive and dangerous, not to mention supremacist and tribalistic. I have already explained the reason behind the "intolerance" with what is being peddled by LS.

Cheers!

Dear Mr. Nara,

I quickly read up the OP, post #9 and #13 all by LS. I did not find anything in these to support your claim that there is anything caste centric deserving the condemnation that you have recorded. When I look at the way people are leaning on the word"even" to hound out LS I wonder whether it is the manifestation of a secret desire to appear to be "modern" and "intellectual". Any way I find the discussion interesting. Thank you.
 
The caste system has always been used by some humans to gain some advantage in life. Previously it was used by some to preserve their land, influence and government patronage. Now it is used by some to reserve seats in educational institutions and government service.

Just human nature, to try to find some advantage to ensure better odds of survival for self and progeny. It is not something handed down by God.

Very true.
 
I think humans would try to take advantage of any system that exists, whether created by the hand of an immortal or a lesser mortal.
 
Yes, and actually it is beyond humans. It is a property of all living things, plants, animals and even bacteria and viruses. That is how viruses can even kill mighty humans.

But one thing most other beings dont have is compassion. Only a few higher mammals show the ability to care for another, even if they are weaker and need help. Human boundaries like casteism, regionalism, racism and even nationalism detract from the notions of universal humanity and compassion.
 
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Obviously you failed to read the OP and other post in this thread, and jumped with both feet and landed on [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]hard surface[/COLOR]. ----------Landing in Hard surface is thousand times safe than in loose soil.
 
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