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Shudra can become a Brahmin

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This is not the version of Mahabharat that I had read when I was younger.

It would be better to have access to "critical edition" of the epics and purAnas published by reputed publishing houses like Motllal Banarasidas and Chowkambica publication etc. of course authored/transated by reliable persons who have no axe grind to either way, nor are under the compulsions of succumbing to present day political pressures.

Such critical editions also have in the footnotes or addendum where they give variations or discrepancies in the verses and the probable interpolations or changes in the plots of what are known as "vulgate editions". You may get a better idea by referring "vulgate" to Wiki and how periodical revisions take place to the supposedly unchangeable religious literature.
 
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Renukaji

Your are one of the few blessed persons who can read vyasa bharatham (and all scriptures) in samskrit and imbibe the character, situations and words of the players. The original import is lost in translations.

This is not the version of Mahabharat that I had read when I was younger.

I read a version by a famous Indian author whose name I cant remember now.

What I read clearly mentioned Yudhisthira telling Kunti why should I do final rites for a Suta Putra?

anyway even online it says this:

After Karna's death

Following the Kurukshetra war, Tarpan vidhi were performed for all the fallen. Kunti then requested her sons to perform the rites for Karna as well. When they protested, saying he was a Sūta, she revealed the truth of his birth. The brothers were shocked to find that they had committed fratricide. Yudhishtira, in particular, was furious with his mother and laid a curse upon all women that they should never thereafter be able to keep a secret.


Karna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Renukaji

Your are one of the few blessed persons who can read vyasa bharatham (and all scriptures) in samskrit and imbibe the character, situations and words of the players. The original import is lost in translations.

Dear Sarang ji,

I am planning to read Mahabharatalakshalankarah a commentary by Sri Vadirajatirtha (1480-1600 CE) on Mahabharat of Sri Bhagavan Vedavsya.

The edition I have has been prepared using 300 year old manuscript from Sri Sode Vadiraja Matha Udupi.

Its 3 huge volumes each volume is about 1000 pages with no English Translation.

I can only start reading it after my final exam in August and when and if I reach that paragraph will share the commentary here with others.
 
You have a long life ahead for this noble endeavour.

And the commentaries too are coloured by the philosophy followed (adwaita, dwaita, vishishtadwaita) by them. To use modern terms - they are vedic and vedantic compliant but significantly different in parts.

Dear Sarang ji,

I am planning to read Mahabharatalakshalankarah a commentary by Sri Vadirajatirtha (1480-1600 CE) on Mahabharat of Sri Bhagavan Vedavsya.

The edition I have has been prepared using 300 year old manuscript from Sri Sode Vadiraja Matha Udupi.

Its 3 huge volumes each volume is about 1000 pages with no English Translation.

I can only start reading it after my final exam in August and when and if I reach that paragraph will share the commentary here with others.
 
Dear Zebra ji,


This is an uncalled for accusation.

I am not a Brahmin Basher.

I might not agree with certain principles and situations in culture and religion but that does not translate as being Anti Brahmin.

Why should I be Anti Brahmin??

Give me one good valid reason?

In this whole thread..can you show me any anti Brahmin post of mine?

Did you even read my post #24 on how I respected the Brahmin priest who came to my home?


Just to let you know I view anyone writing any story as a human....and as with any human each one of us have our own vested interest just like the saying goes.."the victor wrote history"

So sometimes the actual situation of anything might not be what we think it is.

I read religion to know more about God and not to bash any Brahmin or any Varna.

I have the right to question any situation cos Sanathana Dharma is all about Question and Answer and not just Yes Sir Yes Sir Three Bags full and agreeing without understanding.

Most Puranas having been written at times even sans logic but I am not blaming a Brahmin for this.

I might blame the writer cos I see him as a writer and not by his caste.

The problem is may be you are still seeing every writer of epics and puranas as a Brahmin.

i feel distressed that you have to 'prove your "not anti brahmini credentials"' against heartless ostrich headed bigots, who havent yet moved into the 21st century. not only that, at random, any self analysis and request towards decency is branded BB their favourite terminology. they too are BB - Brahmin Bigots. These bigots are among the scums and dregs of the Brahmin community and it is best you ignore them.

All they want is the removal of preferential quotas in government colleges and govt jobs, and they have this pipe dream of once again filling those schools and offices with their nephews and nieces (most of them have only one child or two, and for many this is a mute point). They do not realize, even now, given equal opportunity, ambition, that any caste can study hard and beat the tambrams re mark scoring. I would not be surprised if deep in their hearts, many of these bigots wonder how you got into medical school and whether money played a role in it. they think that marks and studies are a sole monopoly of the tambrams. Maybe it was once, but not any more.

You can easily pick these Brahmin Bigots, in public. For example, their behavior in the vegetable marketplace if you visit Luz or Mylapore, is atrocious. Not only will they take every vendakkai, bend the end, and if it snaps add it to their shopping bag, otherwise throw it back in the basket. Little giving consideration that they are picking the cream of the crop, and add injury to insult, will bargain for the same vegetable, and insist on freeloading the curry leaves and ginger!! There is a word for it in tamil – pandara budhi – and I can easily spot these out here by their verbiage and bigotry.

I have always wondered and admired you for not too many NBs have been able last here very long – for sooner or later comes the attacks of the BB (Bigots). They will never learn. Mercifully, a good chunk of their children, have more sense into them, and many of these daughters get disgusted with the fathers’ such behavior, and opt to marry outside the caste. Such is the damage to the community, these Brahmin Bigots bring.
 
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Mr. K,
I commend you for your post#29. It is hard hitting post in defense of our friend (she does not need any defending).
I could not have written such a post, without the administrators read ink.
 
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Dear Kunjs and Prasad ji,

Thanks for concern.


Zebra Ji and I have discussed on PM and he explained to me that his post did not come out clearly and that is not what he meant.

He explained to me that he knows I am not a Brahmin Basher and I have deleted my post after his PM and he will edit his post.
 
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Dear Kunjs and Prasad ji,


Zebra Ji and I have discussed on PM and he explained to me that his post did not come out clearly and that is not what he meant.

He explained to me that he knows I am not a Brahmin Basher and I have deleted my post after his PM and he will edit his post.

dear renu,

you probably scared him. he is one of those bigots, a hyena dressed up as a goat. dont take his word to you as sincere. look at all his postings elsewhere. he is full of 'brahmin bashing' and superiority of the brahmins. i would like my posts to remain, to prove the type of responses that he elicited from decent folks.

retracting and 'explaining' from him, does not expunge of the original sin.

thank you.
 
I could not have written such a post, without the administrators read ink.
That is because you and I or many others cannot get away with using words such as "scums" or "dregs" or "rascals" or "quislings". I often wonder how some people get away with it. Just like in life, it appears some people have always been endowed with special priveleges.
 
I sense lot of hypocrisy among certain members. While I do not object to considering the usage of the word "shudra" as offensive, the word "pappaan" or "paappathi" which is also considered offensive is being used with impunity here. When I pointed out this before, the same justification that is rejected now was provided by the very same member. Why this bigotry?
 
கால பைரவன்;192037 said:
I sense lot of hypocrisy among certain members. While I do not object to considering the usage of the word "shudra" as offensive, the word "pappaan" or "paappathi" which is also considered offensive is being used with impunity here. When I pointed out this before, the same justification that is rejected now was provided by the very same member. Why this bigotry?

I agree that we need not brand a whole community with derogatory terms.
 
Dear Kunjs and Prasad ji,

Thanks for concern.


Zebra Ji and I have discussed on PM and he explained to me that his post did not come out clearly and that is not what he meant.

He explained to me that he knows I am not a Brahmin Basher and I have deleted my post after his PM and he will edit his post.
I see the deleted post of Renu still in the quotes in Kunjuppu Sir's post! Why?
 
......... You can easily pick these Brahmin Bigots, in public. For example, their behavior in the vegetable marketplace if you visit Luz or Mylapore, is atrocious. Not only will they take every vendakkai, bend the end, and if it snaps add it to their shopping bag, otherwise throw it back in the basket. Little giving consideration that they are picking the cream of the crop, and add injury to insult, will bargain for the same vegetable, and insist on freeloading the curry leaves and ginger!! There is a word for it in tamil – paappaan budhi – and I can easily spot these out here by their verbiage and bigotry.......
Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

You have seen only veNdaikkaay! I have seen 'others' doing such selections in vegetable shops everyday! 'Others' have

many more tricks! I have found them pinching into beetroots with their long grown nails to check for the deep color, eat

the end portion of veLLarikkaay to check for bitterness and even break off the major portion of tender manjaL kizhangu,

leaving only the center portion in the shop for someone else to buy, during pongal season! Why only say it as 'paappaan

budhi'? Is it not brahmin bashing? And why so many harsh words against our forum members?
 
Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

You have seen only veNdaikkaay! I have seen 'others' doing such selections in vegetable shops everyday! 'Others' have

many more tricks! I have found them pinching into beetroots with their long grown nails to check for the deep color, eat

the end portion of veLLarikkaay to check for bitterness and even break off the major portion of tender manjaL kizhangu,

leaving only the center portion in the shop for someone else to buy, during pongal season! Why only say it as 'paappaan

budhi'? Is it not brahmin bashing? And why so many harsh words against our forum members?

dear raji,

as always the voice of sense and moderation. i will abide by your decree :) and remove some terms which might be construed offensive.

re harsh words against forum members? have you been blind to me being the choice by these korangs and zebras for some choicest epithets? i usually ignore them, but i think, when i read renu being subjected to the same monkey tricks, i lost it.

you know me sufficiently well enough, that i do not, by choice, initiate name calling, but when the last straw falls on the camel, it is similar to that proverbial butterfly flapping in brazil, to cause the hurricane in texas.

civlity, culture, manners, and above all dignity - these are learned and displayed. but to some bigots, they appear to think, they are above it all. let them look at the mirror of their conscience, and try to view the blackness of their heart.

hope this explains. ..

and now here to some corrections.

ps..just because renu deleted her post, does not necessarily mean i should. that accusation hurled at her is a sample example of the type of mentality some of the members here have. and a good record of the same.
 
........ ps..just because renu deleted her post, does not necessarily mean i should. that accusation hurled at her is a sample example of the type of mentality some of the members here have. and a good record of the same.
Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

I don't think so! When I found one of Sangom Sir's post a sort of hurting, long back, he obliged to delete it and

you too deleted it from your quotes! Just a reminder! I think when a post is deleted, it need not appear in quotes.

Hope I am clear.... Thank you Sir! :)
 
dear renu,

you probably scared him. he is one of those bigots, a hyena dressed up as a goat. dont take his word to you as sincere. look at all his postings elsewhere. he is full of 'brahmin bashing' and superiority of the brahmins. i would like my posts to remain, to prove the type of responses that he elicited from decent folks.

retracting and 'explaining' from him, does not expunge of the original sin.

thank you.

Mr. "The original Hyena in Sheep clothing" I would want your post to remain in the archives for ever. How else am I to quote and respond to your duplicity, forked tongue speech and the connoisseur par excellence in brahmin bashing? You would get replies for your absurdities from me, have no fears.

I was not the one who got scared and went into hiding in a huff like you when you were pouring vitriol and got the response it deserved, only to sneak back in later like a cat. I am here and listening to you and hope you will take it as good you give and remain in the forum and not scoot away.
 
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....I was not the one who got scared and went into hiding in a huff like you when you were pouring vitriol and got the response it deserved, only to sneak back in later like a cat.

Dear zebra, as one who left in a huff and now have sneaked back in like a cat, and as a renowned BB of this forum, I think I can give dear K a run for his money for the appellation connoisseur par excellence in BB :).

I don't want to wade into troubled water, my comment is only about the subject matter of this thread.

Whatever may have been the intent of those who formulated the varna system, I think it is safe to say Brahmin is nothing more than a jAti today and has been so for at least a few decades. So, when it is suggested that a shudra can become a brahmin by exhibiting Brahmin-like qualities -- if one is honest it cannot be denied that by this only good qualities are meant -- push back must be expected against this crude supremacist idea.

best ...
 
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I did not look into this thread after my post#6, thinking that the Nahusha story has very little potential for a long life in TBF.
But now I see that I was wrong. So, let me now add my bit too.

This Nahusha story is probably one of the very many interpolations in Mahabharata, when there was some movement against caste-based restrictions (may be when Buddhism was at its zenith) and hey presto! someone invents a situation, creates a new discourse on the ever elastic "Dharma" and Yudhishtira says a person's caste is based on his gunas, something closely repeated in BG but in a contrarian way (each caste will have one overriding guna).

The original sin here is of London Swamy but can we not consider all such stories as just mere jokes and leave things like that. In the pre-EVR & DK days no brahmin would have liked to become a Shudra while each & every shudra might have desired to become a brahmin. Today, and in future, no shudra will even dream of becoming a brahmin while every brahmin (including myself) would desire to get a Shudra caste certificate!!

That gives the lie to Nahusha, Yudhishtira and Dharma too;)
 
Renukaji

Thanks for asking thought provoking questions. It is a pleasure to answer your questions.
Unfortunately, sometimes threads are carried away in the storm of accusations and replies.
I am pretty sure that you would not be perturbed by such things

I consider any woman who seeks the knowledge of Brahman-- a BRAHMAVADHINI. We know for sure that there were 27 Bramavadhinis during Rigvedic time. The Upanishad period had more including Gargi and Maitreyi. You know the story of Satyakama Japala. This is to emphasize that sex or caste don't come in the way of spiritual progress. Keep reading and keep asking questions.

First I addressed you 'Renuka'. I took this liberty because of my age (65 years young!)Now after seeing the respect you command among our group, I also changed my form of address to 'Runukaji'!
 
Dear Kunjuppu Sir, Why only say it as 'paappaan budhi'? Is it not brahmin bashing? And why so many harsh words against our forum members?

Sudra and paarpan are completely functional verbs. - former meaning 'alien to the dharma/vedic-customs' and latter one means 'forseer or divine', whcih may have come from a sanskrit word -'prA-arpana' - enlightener/awakener. So, 'pArpanar buddhi' must be an awakening one ;)

The earliest vedic systems were formulated, defined by the Brahman rishis. They were complete pArpanars, in the sense they forsaw the consequences and merits, to accept any system, be it health or medicine or lifestyle etc. Now see the tech media - publicized pollution after brain-washing us with the media. Wow! This is what happens, if we lost the real pArpanar!
 
I think we now need a new term BBBSB - brahmin bashing by sickular brahmins. Pity these trishankus. As here in Bharatadesa, we have sikular hindus, we have the subset counterparts in distant lands.

கால பைரவன்;192036 said:
That is because you and I or many others cannot get away with using words such as "scums" or "dregs" or "rascals" or "quislings". I often wonder how some people get away with it. Just like in life, it appears some people have always been endowed with special priveleges.
 
Just scratch the surface; hidden pus will spurt like brindavan fountain.

Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

You have seen only veNdaikkaay! I have seen 'others' doing such selections in vegetable shops everyday! 'Others' have

many more tricks! I have found them pinching into beetroots with their long grown nails to check for the deep color, eat

the end portion of veLLarikkaay to check for bitterness and even break off the major portion of tender manjaL kizhangu,

leaving only the center portion in the shop for someone else to buy, during pongal season! Why only say it as 'paappaan

budhi'? Is it not brahmin bashing? And why so many harsh words against our forum members?
 
Sudra and paarpan are completely functional verbs. - former meaning 'alien to the dharma/vedic-customs' and latter one means 'forseer or divine', whcih may have come from a sanskrit word -'prA-arpana' - enlightener/awakener. So, 'pArpanar buddhi' must be an awakening one ;) ..........
Dear Govinda Sir,

I am reminded of a pun in Tamil, the language I love! A man wandered saying 'Andavan bhudhdhi illAdhavan!'.

All the theists got annoyed and were about to beat him up! Then he coolly answered, 'What is wrong if I praise God!
I said "Andavan bhudhdhiyil Adhavan" and you know that 'Adhavan' means the Sun!' :decision:
 
First I addressed you 'Renuka'. I took this liberty because of my age (65 years young!)Now after seeing the respect you command among our group, I also changed my form of address to 'Runukaji'!

Dear London ji,


Please kindly address me as before.

I liked being called Renuka or Renu too...it gives a friendly feel..the word Ji at times feels a bit formal too.

Regards

Renu
 
Dear Rajiram,

I like this. I posted GOD IS NOWHERE= GOD is NowHere a few days back. I did not know this Tamil pun. Otherwise I would have added this bit.Anyway when I do the story in Tamil, I will add this pun giving due credit to you. Thanks.
 
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