Shudra can become a Brahmin

[london swaminathan]

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Thanks,Renu.

 

[sarang]

Perhaps there are many low amplitude, high harmonics parpanars now; we need high amplitude, base frequency parpanars. Base amplitude and frequency gives strength to the signal; but higher harmonics provide the timbre. Fourier analysis may help.

One my assignments was to convert a 1KHz square wave to sine and cosine waves by F analysis and hacking the square wave.

Sudra and paarpan are completely functional verbs. - former meaning 'alien to the dharma/vedic-customs' and latter one means 'forseer or divine', whcih may have come from a sanskrit word -'prA-arpana' - enlightener/awakener. So, 'pArpanar buddhi' must be an awakening one

The earliest vedic systems were formulated, defined by the Brahman rishis. They were complete pArpanars, in the sense they forsaw the consequences and merits, to accept any system, be it health or medicine or lifestyle etc. Now see the tech media - publicized pollution after brain-washing us with the media. Wow! This is what happens, if we lost the real pArpanar!

 

[Raji Ram]

......... I like this. I posted GOD IS NOWHERE= GOD is NowHere a few days back. I did not know this Tamil pun. Otherwise I would have added this bit.Anyway when I do the story in Tamil, I will add this pun giving due credit to you. Thanks.

Dear Sir,

We had a wonderful Tamil master in our school by name Amudhan (to match his wife's name Amudhavalli)

whose original name was Ramaswamy! He used to tell us such interesting stories.

 

[sangom]

Just scratch the surface; hidden pus will spurt like brindavan fountain.

Is there a fountain in Brindavan proper - not Brindavan gardens?

 

[PANCHANATHAM CHANDRASEKAR]

Renukaji, i wholeheartedly admit your views and perceptions. Good and god bless you.

 

[sarang]

You guessed right; brindavan gardens near mysore - krishnarajasagar dam. When we visited during college days, we were told that it is a natural fountain - no electric motor-pump used - and the head of water on the upside of the dam was sufficient.

Is there a fountain in Brindavan proper - not Brindavan gardens?

 

[zebra16]

That is because you and I or many others cannot get away with using words such as "scums" or "dregs" or "rascals" or "quislings". I often wonder how some people get away with it. Just like in life, it appears some people have always been endowed with special priveleges.

No one has special privileges. One has to become a scum-lord and start calling others scums, worms, rascals and quislings etc. Yes the under privileged may require a bit more of luck to have their posts escape the scrutiny of the Admins. The bully boys are the first to call the Principal !!!!!!

Ever wonder why docile persons turn rebels?

 

[zebra16]

i
You can easily pick these Brahmin Bigots, in public. For example, their behavior in the vegetable marketplace if you visit Luz or Mylapore, is atrocious. Not only will they take every vendakkai, bend the end, and if it snaps add it to their shopping bag, otherwise throw it back in the basket. Little giving consideration that they are picking the cream of the crop, and add injury to insult, will bargain for the same vegetable, and insist on freeloading the curry leaves and ginger!! There is a word for it in tamil – pandara budhi – and I can easily spot these out here by their verbiage and bigotry..

Before you start to mouth your special brand of pandAra buddhi, have a feedback of "NRI panDAra buddhi" which you exhibit here from Bihari taxi drivers who transport people like you from and to Sahar Airport, should you chance to land in or take off from in Mumbai

 

[sarang]

Testing vendaikai for muthal is not the exclusive privilege of mylapore brahmins. Blatant expletive venom targeting brahmins is disgusting. Bent tails cannot be straightened.

Here in reliance fresh, all shoppers irrespective of varna, kula, jati, nationality (NRIs included, can be spotted by their dress, accent and deportment) select vendaikai by testing the tips; clever reliance sells the the rejected bendi at half price the next day. Or mixes it with fresh tender (pinju) bendis for those who do not care or have the time and patience to sort.

Attacks against the community must be viewed and treated as attacks against individuals.

 

[palindrome]

Even if we assume that A sudra may become a brahmin because of his guna, will other brahmins accept him as brahmin?
Will government of India classify him as Brahmin, will he himself want to be classified as a brahmin?

Why should anyone want to become a brahmin (or claim to be one)?

The OP reads like a typical hindutva hobby -- to fool people over varna. London Swaminathan should read dharmashastras and verify from the Shankaracharya of whichever mutt he follows (Shringeri or Kanchi) whether Shudra can become a Brahmin.

Am more interested in knowing
1) Do folks like London Swaminathan think they are brahmin (based on Yudishtra's answer)?
2) Why folks in service sector (the ones not in priestly jobs) keep claiming they are brahmin ? Why not they seek Shudra status first?

 

[palindrome]

While we may go on discussing here about castes and their evil, etc., (in fact I also used to believe that brahmins created castes, but ) it seems there was / is a system akin to caste among the various tribes and what the ancient brahmins did was merely accepting these chronic differences between the indigenous tribes and classify all the tribes into two or three large baskets.

Caste is not Varna. There is a big difference between both. Wrote about it enough. Still, since some juxtapose caste over varna, it becomes necessary to repeat old stuff.

Caste system is older than varna system. Caste is an indigenous social organization found within tribes or clans based on occupation. Caste is not literature bound. Caste is not created by anyone.

Varna system is a different form of social organization. It is based on class. That is, Just 4 classes. Within 4 classes various people of different occupations are (attempted to be) represented. No evidence to suggest it is indigenous. Varna is literature bound, having its origins and its representation in sanskrit literature of a certain culture. Yes, it is a brahmin creation.

For example, the accounts of foreign merchants etc., show that the pulayas of Malabar and Travancore insisted most vehemently on the pariahs, ulladans and other jungle-tribes to keep a certain distance, and the pulayas were so zealous of this rule, although they (the pulayas) themselves were serfs and could be traded between high caste owners and could also be used (husband & wife) as plough animals. (Good gender equality for today's women's libbers, I think!!)

It wud be interesting to know this account is from which period by whom?

Hence, brahmins may not have been the villains who originated the caste hierarchy. Much more inquiry/research needs to be done on this topic. Anyway, caste is alive and well in India, and will continue strongly, thanks to our political parties and vote banks.

Caste is alive not just due to politicians. It is due to old (elderly) people who bcoz of their upbringing (as well as ignorance) are deeply entrenched in certain beliefs. Apart from creating awareness in all, we also need to wait for the older generation to take their prejudices to their grave (and this includes my parents).

 

[palindrome]

Dear all

Thanks for reading and posting comments.
The underlying message is good qualities alone will make oneself great.
We have heard several stories like Dharmavyadhan in Mahabharata and Guhan in Ramayana. Rama called him a brother.

Words change their meaning in course of time. Pariah was not derogatory during Sangam period. Gandhiji coined a respectful word HARIJANS. In course of time that itself earned bad connotation.
Shudra was made a derogatory term by constant propaganda of DK and DMK. In Vedic times it was one of the caste terms (See Purushasuktam), not derogatory.

The posted was from a scholarly book. Even the author did not hesitate to quote it from MB. But we must not forget the message he gives. Virtues are the deciding factor. Even Valluvar did not hesitate to define who is a Brahmin. Buddha defines Brahminhood in Dhammapada; a whole chapter is devoted for it.

Andhanar Enpor Aravor Marrevvuyirkkum
senthanmai Pundu Ozkalaan --Kural 30

Renuka,

Vyasa did a great job by compiling whatever available in his time. If he had not done it we would have lost all the four Vedas. he has cramped all that was available at his time. So there may be contradictions in the MB. But these apparent contradictions will disappear if you look at it as a whole.

Regarding Karana as Suta putra, it has been there from the very beginning of MB story. Vyasa may be great, but he followed the laws of the land and rules of the day. Even Rama banished Sita because of the public criticism. We have been debating all these for ages. Whether Rama killing Vali, Krishna helping Arjuna by manipulating is right or wrong. End justifies means.

Karna did a blunder by blindly supporting Duryodhana, just for making him King of Anga Desa, when the Suta Putra issue arose. So you cant expect Vyasa's sympathy for him. In short, dont look at individual events, but look at it as a whole. Dharmo Rakshati Rakshita:
President of Indonesia Sukarno's father was a great devotee of Karna. He was a Muslim. When a boy was born to him he wanted to name him Karnan. But knowing that Karna supported the baddies, he named his son Su+Karna = good Karna. So even in the eyes of a modern Muslim, Karna did not get full support.

About me lifting from other books:

Whenever I give some matter from other books, I will always tell the readers.
Whenever I give my views or interpretations on old events, I publish it as my own.
As I am throwing all the old paper cuttings and photo copies (accumulated over 40 years) in to dustbin one by one, I publish a few 'which are interesting'. Readers may not agree with me, it doesn't matter. At least we know there are people with such views.

I published a post '45 commentaries on Gita'. Though I have added many names to the matter lifted from Mainkar's book, I did not include one more commentary written by a DK leader under the title BHAGAVTH GEETHAI ORU KOLAI NUUL ( Gita is a book of murders/killings). I received it for review while I was a Senior Sub Editor in Dinamani, Madurai.This is to show that I use my discretion. But it is up to the readers to take it or reject it.I welcome positive and negative comments.It is a pleasure to read them.

Kalidasa says Loko Binna Ruci: ( Variety is the spice of life)

1) The Andhanar of Sangam period was not the smarta 'brahmin' following the dharmashastras.

2) You are woefully unaware of Buddhism. Go read up what is the meaning of a brahmin in buddhism; then compare with your dharmashastra 'hindu' version.

3) Shudra was not made derogatory by DK. Go and ask the Shankaracharya of whichever mutt you follow to explain why the shudra class is represented thus in the dharmashastras? Ask him not just about shudras (slaves) but also about untouchables and unseeables.

4) Who said Vedas wud have been lost if Vyasa had not compiled 4 vedas? Vyasa compiled the 4 vedas? Really? Since when did Atharva become a 'veda'?

 

[auh]

Inspite of what many seem to huff and puff here, I think that caste/jati/varna will continue to exist in the future. It is definitely a way to preserve culture and tradition.

 

[palindrome]

I think we now need a new term BBBSB - brahmin bashing by sickular brahmins. Pity these trishankus. As here in Bharatadesa, we have sikular hindus, we have the subset counterparts in distant lands.

Sometime back you had asked if anyone wants to become a brahmin. In continuation of my post # 60 in this thread, have added some more points thus:

1) Do folks like London Swaminathan think they are brahmin (based on Yudishtra's answer)?

2) Why folks in service sector (the ones not in priestly jobs) keep claiming they are brahmin ? Why not they seek Shudra status first?

3) If some folks (say Sarang for example) claim to be brahmin, i think it is pretty insulting to ask others to become brahmins. That is not called "elevation" into brahmin, that is called devolution into an uncivilized crude form of classist mentality.

4) Sickular are those who do everything possible in their capacity (including fooling people) to keep religious laws alive. This includes dharmashastra proponents, sharia proponents, and all such like of every religion.

5) Most Sick-ular are those who lie outright, ie, those who claim shudra is not derogatory in their dharmashastra literature but was made derogatory by DK parties.

 

[palindrome]

Testing vendaikai for muthal is not the exclusive privilege of mylapore brahmins. Blatant expletive venom targeting brahmins is disgusting. Bent tails cannot be straightened.

Here in reliance fresh, all shoppers irrespective of varna, kula, jati, nationality (NRIs included, can be spotted by their dress, accent and deportment) select vendaikai by testing the tips; clever reliance sells the the rejected bendi at half price the next day. Or mixes it with fresh tender (pinju) bendis for those who do not care or have the time and patience to sort.

Attacks against the community must be viewed and treated as attacks against individuals.

To the point in bold:

Exactly!! Post your views as those of you, as an individual, alone. Do not make yourself a representative of the community you think you belong to. First ask every individual of your community if they accept you as their representative.

 

[wrongan]

There is one interesting very old story to support this theory.This may not be true,but I heard this from my sammanthi who belongs to that village. There is one village near Mannargudi with an agraharam the brahmins used to cross the Pamini river daily by a boat.The boatman one day asked the Priest to make him a brahmin because eventhough he works hard his services are not recognised whereas brahmins are getting high regard.The priest pittying on him put a poonool on him and asked him to wear viboothi in his forehead.thus he was made a brahmin.The entire agraharam are his heirs only.

 

[Vaagmi]

Being a newbie I spent considerable amount of time in going through all the posts in this thread and other similar threads dealing with the subject caste as I was flummoxed by the vehemence and tone of the arguments here . While people pounced on Mr. London Swaminathan for his using the term Shudra in a way that can be interpreted as condescending, there are many others who object to the very use of the word Shudra anywhere. My views:

1. we can use the terms Brahmin and Shudra without any totemic upper and lower tags to them so that we can discuss a Mahabharatha story. I think that is exactly what L Swaminathan did. It is like saying Lalloo Prasad Yadav and Charanjit Yadav are political leaders from Bihar. One is dead and gone and other is alive and kicking feebly. By saying these two sentences we do not say any thing about the Yadava caste and whether it is upper or lower etc., I may even say that Laloo can become the future Biju Patnaik of Bihar. I would not have yet compared the yadav with a higher caste or Orissa. So to object to the use of the word Shudra anywhere in any context is either hyper sensitivity or over enthusiasm for posturing.
2. Each one here have a lot of experiences in our lives to draw conclusions from and to get our instinctive beliefs validated. So Brahmins would like to be left alone just as Shudras, Vyshyas and Kshatriyas would like to be left alone (a la Kaduvetti Guru). But in a society it is not always possible to live life that simply. Some one or other has to always raise the victimhood bogey to put down some one else, to gain some political mileage, to get an advantage in the race called work life (a promotion, a plum post etc.) or simply to tickle one’s own ego (“thalaiva! Uththaravidu! Vendam! vendam! viral asai! pothum. Thalaikalai koithu kaanikkai tharukirom!” kind of rhetoric can send any leader on a high). Brahmins are at fault only as much as or lesser than others including Shudras in this unfortunate game. And of course we have among Brahmins people with larger than life size troubled conscience which energetically impels them to do penance for the centuries of perceived sins committed by their ancestors. These sections are so vociferous that the usual champions of so called down trodden chuckle when these soldiers of conscience go about bashing their own brethrens black and blue(a la Chinna kuththoosi and some of our learned members here).
3. In the midst of all this cacophony the truth is completely lost. The truth is that there are identifiable groups of people in any society the identifying factor being, to put it bluntly, blood line or to be more precise genes. Those who, as a group, find that they have consistently performed better in many areas of life compared to other groups like to preserve this natural advantage and improve on it further. You call it caste, tribe, varna or whatever you want. They zealously protect their advantages. Thus a jat sikh subedar who, as part of a section/task force sent to probe enemy lines, when ambushed, grabs a MMG stands up and mows down an entire platoon and claims he could do it because he was a jat. There was nothing that prevented another soldier from doing that but he did not do that speaks volumes. A Vadhyar who comes to my house on Amavasya day to help me perform Tarpanam(a half hour job) gets paid a paltry Rs. 100 as dakshinai whereas the mason whom I employ to fix a broken windowsill(again a half hour job) gets Rs. 600 for his work. But in my life time so far I have yet to come across a vadhyar and his wife fighting it out each holding the other’s tuft in public using abusive language. But I have seen many masons and their wives doing that. We all understand where the advantage lies and what is the advantage in being what. So there is nothing wrong in preserving an existing advantage. Rest is all politics. Brahmins will like to be left alone just as they leave alone kshatriyas, vyshyas and shudras. When the mother of a class mate of me in school days one day asked her son to choose a seat next to a Brahmin boy in the examination hall so that he could copy only the correct answers if he had to copy at all. That was the bottom line said very beautifully and frankly without any victimhood tantrums by a rustic woman who knew what she was speaking.

I think this has become too long for a newbie. The subject is such that it has taken a lot of my time in the browsing centre. I have to go home. Thanks.

 

[auh]

I like post 67, for the simple message it conveys.

 

[sangom]

Being a newbie I spent considerable amount of time in going through all the posts in this thread and other similar threads dealing with the subject caste as I was flummoxed by the vehemence and tone of the arguments here . While people pounced on Mr. London Swaminathan for his using the term Shudra in a way that can be interpreted as condescending, there are many others who object to the very use of the word Shudra anywhere. My views:

1. we can use the terms Brahmin and Shudra without any totemic upper and lower tags to them so that we can discuss a Mahabharatha story. I think that is exactly what L Swaminathan did. It is like saying Lalloo Prasad Yadav and Charanjit Yadav are political leaders from Bihar. One is dead and gone and other is alive and kicking feebly. By saying these two sentences we do not say any thing about the Yadava caste and whether it is upper or lower etc., I may even say that Laloo can become the future Biju Patnaik of Bihar. I would not have yet compared the yadav with a higher caste or Orissa. So to object to the use of the word Shudra anywhere in any context is either hyper sensitivity or over enthusiasm for posturing.
2. Each one here have a lot of experiences in our lives to draw conclusions from and to get our instinctive beliefs validated. So Brahmins would like to be left alone just as Shudras, Vyshyas and Kshatriyas would like to be left alone (a la Kaduvetti Guru). But in a society it is not always possible to live life that simply. Some one or other has to always raise the victimhood bogey to put down some one else, to gain some political mileage, to get an advantage in the race called work life (a promotion, a plum post etc.) or simply to tickle one’s own ego (“thalaiva! Uththaravidu! Vendam! vendam! viral asai! pothum. Thalaikalai koithu kaanikkai tharukirom!” kind of rhetoric can send any leader on a high). Brahmins are at fault only as much as or lesser than others including Shudras in this unfortunate game. And of course we have among Brahmins people with larger than life size troubled conscience which energetically impels them to do penance for the centuries of perceived sins committed by their ancestors. These sections are so vociferous that the usual champions of so called down trodden chuckle when these soldiers of conscience go about bashing their own brethrens black and blue(a la Chinna kuththoosi and some of our learned members here).
3. In the midst of all this cacophony the truth is completely lost. The truth is that there are identifiable groups of people in any society the identifying factor being, to put it bluntly, blood line or to be more precise genes. Those who, as a group, find that they have consistently performed better in many areas of life compared to other groups like to preserve this natural advantage and improve on it further. You call it caste, tribe, varna or whatever you want. They zealously protect their advantages. Thus a jat sikh subedar who, as part of a section/task force sent to probe enemy lines, when ambushed, grabs a MMG stands up and mows down an entire platoon and claims he could do it because he was a jat. There was nothing that prevented another soldier from doing that but he did not do that speaks volumes. A Vadhyar who comes to my house on Amavasya day to help me perform Tarpanam(a half hour job) gets paid a paltry Rs. 100 as dakshinai whereas the mason whom I employ to fix a broken windowsill(again a half hour job) gets Rs. 600 for his work. But in my life time so far I have yet to come across a vadhyar and his wife fighting it out each holding the other’s tuft in public using abusive language. But I have seen many masons and their wives doing that. We all understand where the advantage lies and what is the advantage in being what. So there is nothing wrong in preserving an existing advantage. Rest is all politics. Brahmins will like to be left alone just as they leave alone kshatriyas, vyshyas and shudras. When the mother of a class mate of me in school days one day asked her son to choose a seat next to a Brahmin boy in the examination hall so that he could copy only the correct answers if he had to copy at all. That was the bottom line said very beautifully and frankly without any victimhood tantrums by a rustic woman who knew what she was speaking.

I think this has become too long for a newbie. The subject is such that it has taken a lot of my time in the browsing centre. I have to go home. Thanks.

The above post has demonstrated, yet again, that the topic of brahmin vs shudra invokes lot of interest among tabras, particularly.

London Swamy has rather thoughtlessly, started this thread. He has not probably considered the fact that according to our dharmasastras a person born into one caste can never have his caste changed.

This Nahusha story is an unwanted embellishment and LS has adorned himself with that.

 

[Vaagmi]

The above post has demonstrated, yet again, that the topic of brahmin vs shudra invokes lot of interest among tabras, particularly.

London Swamy has rather thoughtlessly, started this thread. He has not probably considered the fact that according to our dharmasastras a person born into one caste can never have his caste changed.

This Nahusha story is an unwanted embellishment and LS has adorned himself with that.

Dear Mr. Sangom,

It is not brahmin vs shudra that attracted me here. It is brahmins vs brahmins. The nahusha story exists there and why should we shun it. We can take it discuss it and draw conclusions. The conclusions may not be palatable to some of the brahmins here. But in any debate that is bound to be there.

 

[Nara]

we can use the terms Brahmin and Shudra without any totemic upper and lower tags to them so that we can discuss a Mahabharatha story. I think that is exactly what L Swaminathan did. .

Mr. Vaagmi this assertion that the terms Brahmin and Shudra can be used in a benign way is belied by the very title of this thread and the message Mr. LS is trying to convey in this tread. Why must a Shudra try to become a Brahmin unless the state of Brahminhood is superior to that of Shudrahood? It is all the more insulting to say that even a Shudra can be virtuous and if so he will be considered Brahmin. Take a look at the following passage reeking with "totemic upper and lower tags".

From OP:

The python asked, “But this goes against the principle of four varnas/ castes. For even a Shudra may have all these virtues. Virtues cannot be the monopoly of any caste.” Yudhisthira replied in unambiguous language, “Indeed ,if a Shudra is characterised by all these virtues, he is to be defined as a Brahmin. And if a Brahmin lacks them then he is to be regarded as a Shudra.”
​

IMO, the whole story of Nahusha is a case of establishing Brahmnical superiority over Kshatriya, to tell Kshatriyas to watch out how they treat Brahmins.

Cheers!

 

[wrongan]

A Humour story to ponder Relating to this thread--- The Promoted Barber(From Tenali Raman Stories)

The Royal Barber's only task was to give king
Krishnadeva Raya his daily shave. One day when he arrived
to do his job, king krishnadeva Raya was still asleep.
The barber gave him a shave even as he slept. On waking
up, the king was happy at the barber's skill of shaving
a sleeping man. The king was pleased and told the barber
to ask for anything of his choice. To this, the barber
said , " Your Majesty, I would like to become a Brahmin.
Because Every one respects our Raj purohit.But whatever
work I do I am not respected.So the king asked him to
wear the sacred thread and vibuthi in his forehead and
chest.His Majesty asked everyone to respect him as a
Brahmin from that day.


As the news of the barber spread around, the other
brahmins became worried. They thought that their sancsity
is at peril. They went to Tenali with the problem. Tenali
assured them of his help.Next day when the king went by
the river, he was surprised to see Tenali scrubbing hard
bathing a black dog. When the king asked what he was doing,
Tenali replied, "Your Majesty I am trying to convert a black
dog into a white one by scrubbing it hard just as a barber
becme a brahmin. On hearing this, the king realized what
Tenali was hinting at. That day, in the court, he appointed
barber back into his position.

 

[Nara]

[snip]

Tenali replied, "Your Majesty I am trying to convert a black
dog into a white one by scrubbing it hard just as a barber
becme a brahmin. On hearing this, the king realized what
Tenali was hinting at. That day, in the court, he appointed
barber back into his position.

There is no humor in this vile supremacist garbage, only bigotry. Then they ask why Brahmins are blamed for "everything". Not a day passes without at least one post that reveals this kind of bigoted pile of turd that pervades just underneath.

 

[sangom]

There is no humor in this vile supremacist garbage, only bigotry. Then they ask why Brahmins are blamed for "everything". Not a day passes without at least one post that reveals this kind of bigoted pile of turd that pervades just underneath.

Nahusha-YudhishTira combine would have cursed Tenali and the king so that both will have to take many many births as shudras; in between came independence!!

We have to ask LS for what happened thereafter.

 

[renuka]

Being a newbie I spent considerable amount of time in going through all the posts in this thread and other similar threads dealing with the subject caste as I was flummoxed by the vehemence and tone of the arguments here . While people pounced on Mr. London Swaminathan for his using the term Shudra in a way that can be interpreted as condescending, there are many others who object to the very use of the word Shudra anywhere. My views:

1. we can use the terms Brahmin and Shudra without any totemic upper and lower tags to them so that we can discuss a Mahabharatha story. I think that is exactly what L Swaminathan did. It is like saying Lalloo Prasad Yadav and Charanjit Yadav are political leaders from Bihar. One is dead and gone and other is alive and kicking feebly. By saying these two sentences we do not say any thing about the Yadava caste and whether it is upper or lower etc., I may even say that Laloo can become the future Biju Patnaik of Bihar. I would not have yet compared the yadav with a higher caste or Orissa. So to object to the use of the word Shudra anywhere in any context is either hyper sensitivity or over enthusiasm for posturing.
2. Each one here have a lot of experiences in our lives to draw conclusions from and to get our instinctive beliefs validated. So Brahmins would like to be left alone just as Shudras, Vyshyas and Kshatriyas would like to be left alone (a la Kaduvetti Guru). But in a society it is not always possible to live life that simply. Some one or other has to always raise the victimhood bogey to put down some one else, to gain some political mileage, to get an advantage in the race called work life (a promotion, a plum post etc.) or simply to tickle one’s own ego (“thalaiva! Uththaravidu! Vendam! vendam! viral asai! pothum. Thalaikalai koithu kaanikkai tharukirom!” kind of rhetoric can send any leader on a high). Brahmins are at fault only as much as or lesser than others including Shudras in this unfortunate game. And of course we have among Brahmins people with larger than life size troubled conscience which energetically impels them to do penance for the centuries of perceived sins committed by their ancestors. These sections are so vociferous that the usual champions of so called down trodden chuckle when these soldiers of conscience go about bashing their own brethrens black and blue(a la Chinna kuththoosi and some of our learned members here).
3. In the midst of all this cacophony the truth is completely lost. The truth is that there are identifiable groups of people in any society the identifying factor being, to put it bluntly, blood line or to be more precise genes. Those who, as a group, find that they have consistently performed better in many areas of life compared to other groups like to preserve this natural advantage and improve on it further. You call it caste, tribe, varna or whatever you want. They zealously protect their advantages. Thus a jat sikh subedar who, as part of a section/task force sent to probe enemy lines, when ambushed, grabs a MMG stands up and mows down an entire platoon and claims he could do it because he was a jat. There was nothing that prevented another soldier from doing that but he did not do that speaks volumes. A Vadhyar who comes to my house on Amavasya day to help me perform Tarpanam(a half hour job) gets paid a paltry Rs. 100 as dakshinai whereas the mason whom I employ to fix a broken windowsill(again a half hour job) gets Rs. 600 for his work. But in my life time so far I have yet to come across a vadhyar and his wife fighting it out each holding the other’s tuft in public using abusive language. But I have seen many masons and their wives doing that. We all understand where the advantage lies and what is the advantage in being what. So there is nothing wrong in preserving an existing advantage. Rest is all politics. Brahmins will like to be left alone just as they leave alone kshatriyas, vyshyas and shudras. When the mother of a class mate of me in school days one day asked her son to choose a seat next to a Brahmin boy in the examination hall so that he could copy only the correct answers if he had to copy at all. That was the bottom line said very beautifully and frankly without any victimhood tantrums by a rustic woman who knew what she was speaking.

I think this has become too long for a newbie. The subject is such that it has taken a lot of my time in the browsing centre. I have to go home. Thanks.

Dear Sir,

Technically speaking terminologies such a Brahmana and Shudra are just Varnas and nothing more.

It is just like how we have alphabets ABC till Z...is A superior to Z? or is Z superior to A?

No isn't it?? Like wise Brahminhood and Sudrahood just refers to a Varna classification and nothing more or less.

Each Varna should be given their due respect for the different roles they play in society.

The point is as I said in my earlier post in this thread is "did anyone ask a Shudra if he wants to become a Brahmin?"

It is making it sound as if the Shudra is of a lower status than a Brahmin that he needs to feel happy that he might have a chance to become a Brahmin.

Sanathana Dharma does not teach us that Brahminhood or even Sattavism is the endpoint but teaches us that we need to transcend our very human existence itself.

As I once wrote in Forum that many people feel that Purusha Shuktam denotes superiority of Brahmins over other Varnas since they emerge from the Mouth of the Supreme Person and Shudra the lowest status since they emerge from the Feet of the Supreme Person but in reality if anyone has thought so.. he/she is wrong cos if we feel Mouth of the Supreme Person is superior than Feet of Supreme Person that means we have committed the 'crime' of judging the Supreme Person into Higher and Lower parts.

Varna scale is like a Music Scale played on a Piano..we need all keys to produce a melody.