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Rudram and Chamakam

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ചികിത്സകി രേണുകേ -- നിങ്ങള്ടെ പൂറ്വീക ഭാഷയായ ഹിന്ദി എനിക്ക് മനസ്സിലാകുന്നില്ല. ആയതുകൊണ്ട് ഏന്റെ സ്വന്തം പൂറ്വീക ഭാഷയായ മലയാളത്തില് മറുപടി അയക്കുന്നു. തെത്തിദ്ധരിക്കരുതു.

ഈ മത്സരം ആവിശ്യമില്ലാത്തതാണ്. ഞാന് നിങ്ങള്ടെ ഗുരുവല്ല.

ആണ് ബ്രാഹ്മണന്മാര്ക്ക് മാത്രമേ ബ്രഹ്മോപദേശവും വേദോപദേശവും കിട്ടാന് അധികാരമുള്ളു എന്നു മുമ്പേ ഞാന് പറഞ്ഞിട്ടുണ്ടല്ലോ. ഈ കലിയുഗത്തില് പ്രത്യേഗിച്ച് ആരാണ് ശിഷ്യസ്ഥാനത്തിന്നു ഉചിതരെന്നു പരീക്ഷിച്ചേ നിര്ണയിക്കാവുള്ളു. ഏന്റെ മുന്പറഞ്ഞ വാര്ത്തകളെ ഒരു തരം കൂടി വായിക്കുക. ശ്രദ്ധയോട് വായിച്ചാല് ഒരു സമയം മനസ്സിലാകാം.

ഇതോടെ ഈ മത്സരം തീരട്ടെ.

സു നാരായണസ്വാമി പട്ടര്
 

tks

Well-known member
Dear Sri N R Lakshminarasimham

Appreciate what you said about using a CD and a book. Some folk nowadays think this is the fashionable and cheap thing to do. But it is entirely the wrong method. Even a video is of no use.

If you are truly serious, Rudram, Chamakam and the sookthams such as Durga Sooktham have to be learned only through guru mukham -- one-to-one personal instruction from a Veda-Brahmana, an elder who is proficient in the Vedams, or a shaasthrigal.

Self-instruction can lead to errors which will negate the results you seek, and even lead to adverse repercussions. Lord Shiva-Rudran is not a deity to be trifled with or angered.

Please wear vibhoothi -- three horizontal stripes -- on your forehead, to show respect to the deity.

But if you insist on taking the risk, nothing more needs to be said.

S Nartayanaswamy Iyer
Just saw this thread including the post in Malayalam :) Google Translate did a decent job actually.

I think there is wisdom in recommending that chanting be learnt from a qualified teacher rather than from a CD,
This has nothing to do with Sri Rudhra getting angry and punishing for chanting poorly.

First, not learning properly shows lack of Shraddha and such attitudes will spill into other aspects of life leading to less peace of mind.

Second, a qualified teacher (unlike a CD) can correct the pronunciation.

Though I tried to learn the chanting many years ago with a qualified person whose pronunciation and intonation etc are known to superbly accurate, I really gave up chanting because with the practice time I could devote to I was making far too many mistakes.

It is equally effective to listen to a CD and meditate to the chanting with the right attitude. But if one wants to learn properly they should find a qualified teacher.

The meditation (upasana) while listening (or chanting) Sri Rudram is enhanced when one has proper understanding of the meaning.

It is not possible to get the proper meaning and insights from ritualistic persons and those that have studied in Veda Patashalas. One cannot get answers to the meaning by digging more into karma kanda sections of the Vedas wither

One needs a qualified teacher. There are many other pre-requisites to learning that the teacher will impart.

I am reminded this post from the archives
https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=22878&p=287245#post287245

There is but one example to make this point for need for a teacher,

नमो॒ वञ्च॑ते परि॒वञ्च॑ते स्तायू॒नांपत॑ये॒ नमो॒ in Anuvaka 3 - the meaning is Namaskaram to the one who cheats now and then, one who cheats all the time and the one who is the God of those who steal !

How can one possibly understand the above without a proper teacher?

This angry God is a cheat? And God of those that steal??

Anyway the opening post is about learning the chanting. I think Sri Gopalan and Sri Narayanaswami Iyer have shared their views well.
 

renuka

Well-known member
There is but one example to make this point for need for a teacher,

नमो॒ वञ्च॑ते परि॒वञ्च॑ते स्तायू॒नांपत॑ये॒ नमो॒ in Anuvaka 3 - the meaning is Namaskaram to the one who cheats now and then, one who cheats all the time and the one who is the God of those who steal !

How can one possibly understand the above without a proper teacher?

.
Its usually to denote the Polar opposite of the Deity called Rudra.
That He verily has 2 facets to His personality.

When we think of any divine entity we usually divorce any negativity from It and focus only on its positivity in that process we are not able to comprehend that Divinity is present in the Good the Bad and everything else in between.

If Divinity is the Lord of the virtuous ...Salutations upon Him for He is also the Lord of the Non Virtuous..He is verily Lord of all.

We have to embrace both aspects of Divinity..if we only subscribe to the positivity we only address 50% of Him.
 
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Vaagmi

Well-known member
ചികിത്സകി രേണുകേ -- നിങ്ങള്ടെ പൂറ്വീക ഭാഷയായ ഹിന്ദി എനിക്ക് മനസ്സിലാകുന്നില്ല. ആയതുകൊണ്ട് ഏന്റെ സ്വന്തം പൂറ്വീക ഭാഷയായ മലയാളത്തില് മറുപടി അയക്കുന്നു. തെത്തിദ്ധരിക്കരുതു.

ഈ മത്സരം ആവിശ്യമില്ലാത്തതാണ്. ഞാന് നിങ്ങള്ടെ ഗുരുവല്ല.

ആണ് ബ്രാഹ്മണന്മാര്ക്ക് മാത്രമേ ബ്രഹ്മോപദേശവും വേദോപദേശവും കിട്ടാന് അധികാരമുള്ളു എന്നു മുമ്പേ ഞാന് പറഞ്ഞിട്ടുണ്ടല്ലോ. ഈ കലിയുഗത്തില് പ്രത്യേഗിച്ച് ആരാണ് ശിഷ്യസ്ഥാനത്തിന്നു ഉചിതരെന്നു പരീക്ഷിച്ചേ നിര്ണയിക്കാവുള്ളു. ഏന്റെ മുന്പറഞ്ഞ വാര്ത്തകളെ ഒരു തരം കൂടി വായിക്കുക. ശ്രദ്ധയോട് വായിച്ചാല് ഒരു സമയം മനസ്സിലാകാം.

ഇതോടെ ഈ മത്സരം തീരട്ടെ.

സു നാരായണസ്വാമി പട്ടര്
For the benefit of Renukaji:

Transliteration:

sikithsaki Renukey!! ningalude purvika bhashayaayahindi enikku manassil aakunnilla. Aayathukondu ente swantham purvika bhashayaaya malayalaththil marupadi ayikkunnu. thetridharikkaruthey.

Meaning:

Dr Renuka!! your purvika language hindi I am not able to understand. So I am replying in my purvika language Malayalam. Do not misunderstand me.

Transliteration:

Ee malsaram avisyamillaaththaanu. jyan ningalude guruvalla.

Meaning:

This contest is unnecessary. I am not your Guru.

Transliteration:

AAn brahmananmaarkkumaathramE brahmopathesavum vedopasevum kittan adhikaaramullu ennu munbe jyaan paranchittundallO. EE kaliyugaththil prathyekichchu aaraanu sishyasthaanaththinu uchitharennu pareekshichche nirnayikkaavullu. ente munbaththe varththakala orutharam koodi vaayikkuka. shraddayoda vayichchaal oru samayam manasilaakaam.

ithode Ee malsaram theeratte.

su. narayanaswamy battar.

meaning:

I have already said that male brahmins only are eligible for brahmopadesam and vedopadesam. In this kaliyuga who can become a sishya is determined by a proper testing. Please read my earlier statements once again. If you read with application of mind you will understand.

Let this contest stop with this.

Su. Narayanswamy brahmin.

Renukaji, No bill for the service. Now you can indulge in a differential diagnosis of the problem with your patient. LOL.
 
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renuka

Well-known member
For the benefit of Renukaji:

Transliteration:

sikithsaki Renukey!! ningalude purvika bhashayaayahindi enikku manassil aakunnilla. Aayathukondu ente swantham purvika bhashayaaya malayalaththil marupadi ayikkunnu. thetridharikkaruthey.

Meaning:

Dr Renuka!! your purvika language hindi I am not able to understand. So I am replying in my purvika language Malayalam. Do not misunderstand me.

Transliteration:

Ee malsaram avisyamillaaththaanu. jyan ningalude guruvalla.

Meaning:

This contest is unnecessary. I am not your Guru.

Transliteration:

AAn brahmananmaarkkumaathramE brahmopathesavum vedopasevum kittan adhikaaramullu ennu munbe jyaan paranchittundallO. EE kaliyugaththil prathyekichchu aaraanu sishyasthaanaththinu uchitharennu pareekshichche nirnayikkaavullu. ente munbaththe varththakala orutharam koodi vaayikkuka. shraddayoda vayichchaal oru samayam manasilaakaam.

ithode Ee malsaram theeratte.

su. narayanaswamy battar.

meaning:

I have already said that male brahmins only are eligible for brahmopadesam and vedopadesam. In this kaliyuga who can become a sishya is determined by a proper testing. Please read my earlier statements once again. If you read with application of mind you will understand.

Let this contest stop with this.

Su. Narayanswamy brahmin.

Renukaji, No bill for the service. Now you can indulge in a differential diagnosis of the problem with your patient. LOL.
LOL.

I had a feeling the post was a reply to me.I cant read Malayalam but I could sense it was a reply to me.

But the Malayalam alphabets for Renuka was similar a bit to Tamil and I felt it must be to me.

Thanks Vaagmi Ji.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
Dear All,

What is the procedure for doing Rudram and Chamakam ?

The mantras and slokams are available. I am not asking about that ?

What I mean is the proper procedure around :

1. What time of the day it should be done ? any restrictions ?
2. Should be done in empty stomach ?
3. Should absolute madi (cleanliness) needs to be maintained ? done with wet clothes immediately after bath or so ?
4. What is the vidhi ? Prasadams and what kind of prasadams to be offered to Siva perumal ?
5. Should it be done after Sandhyavandhanam ?


Would be great if u can help.

regards,
Deva
Dear Devarajanji,

I take your querry as a genuine one from one who wants to really know the procedure for studying the scripture in today's circumstances. And now my answer:

1. All scriptural texts are chanted in the morning hours after a bath and nithyakarmanushtanam. So it would be better if you get up in the morning, have the bath, do your sandhyavandhanam and then sit for the chanting of Rudram and Chamakam.

2. Empty stomach is preferable to a full stomach as the later is likely induce tamasic stupor which is not good for chanting of the scriptures.

3. Cleanliness is a precondition for any stotra patanam. Wet clothes are a no no. There is however a rule that a wet cloth after it is wringed and spread out seven times becomes equivalent to a dry madi cloth. This is for those who do mantra patanam on the banks of the river after a bath in the river.

4. There is no vidhi as such about what should be offered as prasadam.

5. Yes. Do it after sandhya.

As for your querry about chanting after listening to a CD in the CD player, it is not advised for the following reasons:

1. The mantras are in the ancient Sanskrit language. The language utilises phonetics for its vast vocabulary. A consonant can be pronounced differently depending on the time in matras as the duration to pronounce it. Depending on how many matras are used to pronounce a consonant the meaning of the constructed word differs. So dAtam and anudAtam, as they are called, are levels of stress of a consonant. This stress can be learnt only from a teacher in a one to one session. So a CD may not be an ideal source to learn the mantras.

Don't be scared by the words of some who would tell you that God will get angry if you commit mistake while chanting. An inadvertant mistake will always be pardoned. God is full of love only. So do not allow your enthusiasm to wane. Learn it first from a teacher and then sit with your CD player daily untill you get the necessary level of confidence.

Try to understand the meaning of the mantras as that will help you improve your level of shradhdha.

All the best.
 
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renuka

Well-known member
ചികിത്സകി രേണുകേ -- നിങ്ങള്ടെ പൂറ്വീക ഭാഷയായ ഹിന്ദി എനിക്ക് മനസ്സിലാകുന്നില്ല. ആയതുകൊണ്ട് ഏന്റെ സ്വന്തം പൂറ്വീക ഭാഷയായ മലയാളത്തില് മറുപടി അയക്കുന്നു. തെത്തിദ്ധരിക്കരുതു.

ഈ മത്സരം ആവിശ്യമില്ലാത്തതാണ്. ഞാന് നിങ്ങള്ടെ ഗുരുവല്ല.

ആണ് ബ്രാഹ്മണന്മാര്ക്ക് മാത്രമേ ബ്രഹ്മോപദേശവും വേദോപദേശവും കിട്ടാന് അധികാരമുള്ളു എന്നു മുമ്പേ ഞാന് പറഞ്ഞിട്ടുണ്ടല്ലോ. ഈ കലിയുഗത്തില് പ്രത്യേഗിച്ച് ആരാണ് ശിഷ്യസ്ഥാനത്തിന്നു ഉചിതരെന്നു പരീക്ഷിച്ചേ നിര്ണയിക്കാവുള്ളു. ഏന്റെ മുന്പറഞ്ഞ വാര്ത്തകളെ ഒരു തരം കൂടി വായിക്കുക. ശ്രദ്ധയോട് വായിച്ചാല് ഒരു സമയം മനസ്സിലാകാം.

ഇതോടെ ഈ മത്സരം തീരട്ടെ.

സു നാരായണസ്വാമി പട്ടര്
Dear Narayana Ji,

Vaagmi ji translated what you wrote.

I found the answer to the Rudra angry concept.

A learned Jaat male explained to me yesterday that the Rudra concept is a Rahasyam best known to Jaats becos according to Deva Samhita, the Jaat community arose from the locks of Shiva in an Urgra form.

In fact an entire conversation between Shiva and Parvati is about this in Deva Samhita where Jaats are extolled as the true rulers of the world and are Devatas themselves and also a stanza says Pundits do not want to admit this fact for fear to impair their false pride.

The learned Jaat explained in detail to me about the Rudram/Chamakam..he said its a well kept Rahasya among Jaats and I cant type it here cos he told me he has faith I would keep it a secret and he divulged it to me solely based on my Shraddha.

BTW Deva Samhita:


Taken from Wikipedia:

There is mention of Jats in Deva Samhitā[SUP][6][/SUP] in the form of powerful rulers over vast plains of Central Asia[SUP][7][/SUP]. When Pārvatī asks Shiva about the origin of Jats, their antiquity and characters of Jats, Shiva tells her like this in Sanskrit shloka-15 as under:

महाबला महावीर्या, महासत्य पराक्रमाः
Mahābalā mahāvīryā, Mahāsatya parākramāḥ
सर्वाग्रे क्षत्रिया जट्‌टा देवकल्‍पा दृढ़-व्रता:
Sarvāgre kshatriyā jattā Devakalpā dridh-vratāḥ || 15 ||

Meaning - "They are symbol of sacrifice, bravery and industry. They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the kshatriyā, the Jats are the prime rulers of the earth." [SUP][8][/SUP]Shiva explains Parvati about the origin of Jats in Shloka –16 of Deva samhita as under:


श्रृष्टेरादौ महामाये वीर भद्रस्य शक्तित:
Shrishterādau mahāmāye Virabhadrasya shaktitaḥ
कन्यानां दक्षस्य गर्भे जाता जट्टा महेश्वरी
Kanyānām Dakshasya garbhe jātā jattā maheshwarī. || 16 ||

Meaning – "In the beginning of the universe with the personification of the illusionary powers of Virabhadra and Daksha's daughter gani's womb originated the caste of Jats.

"Pārvatī asks, in the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' about the origin and exploits of the Jats, whom none else has so far revealed, Shiva tells Parvati that:
गर्व खर्चोत्र विग्राणां देवानां च महेश्वरी
Garva kharchotra vigrānam devānām cha maheshwarī
विचित्रं विस्‍मयं सत्‍वं पौराण कै साङ्गीपितं
Vichitram vismayam satvam Pauran kai sāngīpitam || 17 ||

Meaning - "The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals, lest it should injure and impair their false pride of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you."
 
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Let me express my admiration of the sound and detailed advice tendered by Sri Vaagmi in response to the post by Sri K Devarajan.

"Don't be scared by the words of some who would tell you that God will get angry if you commit mistake while chanting. An inadvertant mistake will always be pardoned. "

True. That is why towards the conclusion of our prayers, poojas, homams we chant: "Manthra heenam kriyaa heenam bhakthi heenam Janaardhana....", "yadakshara-pada-bhrushtam maathraa-heenam thu yad bhaveth thath sarvam kshamyathaam deva.....", and "visargga-bindu-maathraani.......kshamasthva parameshvara."

However, let us not forget that a slight mispronunciation can have disastrous consequences. For example, a prayer seeking the boon of a son who will kill Indra can turn to a prayer seeking a son who will be killed by Indra.

There is a supreme need to be vigilant with Sanskrit words, especially in prayers to the Almighty.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
 

renuka

Well-known member
There is a supreme need to be vigilant with Sanskrit words, especially in prayers to the Almighty.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
An Arab proffessor told me that in heaven, Arabic is spoken and its called Heavenly language.

So which language does the Almighty speak?



BTW many South Indian TB priests I have heard them pronounce the letter Sha as Sa.

So some regional differences are there..so what to do with all these regional differences in pronunciation?

Also the retroflex letter of Vedic Sanskrit got replaced with [FONT=q_serif]ड
[/FONT]
even in Vedic text ..
remains only in the 1st mantra addressed to Agni in the Rg Veda...even in later parts of the Rg one sees the usage of [FONT=q_serif]ड.

[/FONT]
So with changes even in Vedic Sanskrit..what can we say of Classical Sanskrit?

So which is it now?

Bhakti or Vibhakti?
 
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krish44

Well-known member
Dear Devarajanji,

I take your querry as a genuine one from one who wants to really know the procedure for studying the scripture in today's circumstances. And now my answer:

1. All scriptural texts are chanted in the morning hours after a bath and nithyakarmanushtanam. So it would be better if you get up in the morning, have the bath, do your sandhyavandhanam and then sit for the chanting of Rudram and Chamakam.

2. Empty stomach is preferable to a full stomach as the later is likely induce tamasic stupor which is not good for chanting of the scriptures.

3. Cleanliness is a precondition for any stotra patanam. Wet clothes are a no no. There is however a rule that a wet cloth after it is wringed and spread out seven times becomes equivalent to a dry madi cloth. This is for those who do mantra patanam on the banks of the river after a bath in the river.

4. There is no vidhi as such about what should be offered as prasadam.

5. Yes. Do it after sandhya.

As for your querry about chanting after listening to a CD in the CD player, it is not advised for the following reasons:

1. The mantras are in the ancient Sanskrit language. The language utilises phonetics for its vast vocabulary. A consonant can be pronounced differently depending on the time in matras as the duration to pronounce it. Depending on how many matras are used to pronounce a consonant the meaning of the constructed word differs. So dAtam and anudAtam, as they are called, are levels of stress of a consonant. This stress can be learnt only from a teacher in a one to one session. So a CD may not be an ideal source to learn the mantras.

Don't be scared by the words of some who would tell you that God will get angry if you commit mistake while chanting. An inadvertant mistake will always be pardoned. God is full of love only. So do not allow your enthusiasm to wane. Learn it first from a teacher and then sit with your CD player daily untill you get the necessary level of confidence.

Try to understand the meaning of the mantras as that will help you improve your level of shradhdha.

All the best.
This is the only good meaningful post in this thread.My upvote.

Keep it up.
 
"So which language does the Almighty speak?" -- Dr Renuka.


All languages: Arabic to Arabs, (Vulgar) Latin (not the classical Latin of Cicero) to the Pope in the Vatican and to Roman Catholics, English to Englishmen, French to Frenchmen, Greek to Greeks, German to Germans, Russian to Russians, Syrian to Syrians, other Semitic languages to other Semitics, African languages to the Africans, Malay to Indonesians and to Malay Malaysians, Japanese to the Japanese, Chinese to the Chinese, Hindi to Indian Northerners, Kannadam, Telegu, Thamizh, and Malayalam to the Indian Southerners.

In deep meditation, you do not speak at all. You withdraw into yourself, deepen your devotion and concentrate your whole attention on the Deity you adore. You neither seek nor grant boons and blessings. You only want unity with God and cessation of and deliverance from the cycle of births and deaths.

If you do insist on verbal prayer, chose any language you are comfortable with. God hears all who worship Him/Her.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
 

renuka

Well-known member
Deep meditation is like LOVE.
you lose yourself..you waltz with the beloved in moves so fine that your heart begs " once more"

Only those who have loved truly experience God.
 

tbs

Well-known member
Deep meditation is like LOVE.
you lose yourself..you waltz with the beloved in moves so fine that your heart begs " once more"

Only those who have loved truly experience God.
hi renu,

i had experience of deep mediation according to ur definition.....i had LOVE experience....i think..

u never had such experience...
 

renuka

Well-known member
hi renu,

i had experience of deep mediation according to ur definition.....i had LOVE experience....i think..

u never had such experience...
Ha ha ha..I am a Libran ruled by Venus the planet of Lovvu.

No one knows LOVVU better than a Libran.
 

tbs

Well-known member
Ha ha ha..I am a Libran ruled by Venus the planet of Lovvu.

No one knows LOVVU better than a Libran.
hi

better consult with sri ganesh about astrology...other put a question in introduction to astrology..get

conformation/concureence with ganesh sir..lah
 
"Only those who have loved truly experience God." -- Doctor Renuka.

The truth may well be: Only those who have truly experienced God, who have approached Him/Her with awe, devotion and trust, know what is love.

Without bhaya-bhakthi-vishvaasam, without sharanaagatham, there can be no love.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
 

renuka

Well-known member
"Only those who have loved truly experience God." -- Doctor Renuka.

The truth may well be: Only those who have truly experienced God, who have approached Him/Her with awe, devotion and trust, know what is love.

Without bhaya-bhakthi-vishvaasam, without sharanaagatham, there can be no love.

S Narayanaswamy Iyer
You sound like an Iyengar.
 

Vaagmi

Well-known member
You sound like an Iyengar.
The first requirement in God realisation is bhakti or pure love which does not expect anything in return. Human beings are capable of this kind of love. God has created human beings to just love -- love the world, love fellow beings, love other lives that share the space with humans, and finally sublimate all this to the level of loving God.

When you are not able to love even an Iyengar how will you ever reach God? No chance.

You will for ever be stuck at the intermediate (like Trishanku) level of being an Atma vEdhi with no hope to rise above that. LOL.
 
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