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Respect women’s autonomy

prasad1

Active member
The Gauhati high court’s ruling, granting a man a divorce on the grounds that his wife refused to wear a shaka (conch shell bangle) and sindoor as per Hindu custom amounted to her refusal to accept the marriage, is a huge step backwards for women’s rights.

By wearing these accoutrements of matrimony, a woman is expected to show her devotion to her husband while nothing of this sort is expected from the man. In fact, the sindoor takes on a significant role in a marriage that neither a single woman nor a widow can wear it. It is seen as a mark of respectability.

In the Gauhati case, the court went further and ruled that the woman in question was guilty of cruelty under the Maintenance and Welfare of Parents and Senior Citizens Act 2007, as she did not want to live with her in-laws, and, hence, tried to prevent her husband from looking after his aged mother. The ruling suggests an inbuilt bias in the judiciary, particularly at the lower levels. It deprives the woman of her freedom of choice as to whether she wishes to wear symbols of marriage.

This sort of misogyny is insidious as it tends to appropriate and control the woman’s wishes. The ruling – like many others in the past – deny the woman autonomy, and makes her subservient to a pre-defined patriarchal notion of what a “good” wife ought to be like. At a time when more women are entering the workforce and becoming economically independent, it seems misplaced to constrain their behaviour, whether it is within a marriage or otherwise.


Unfortunately, many of India’s popular television serials and films also glorify the importance of marriage symbols such as sindoor and bangles. A marriage is a union of equals and should not be contingent on one partner being viewed as being subservient to the other. Equality under the law should be upheld in letter and spirit and the Gauhati ruling seems to go against this.

 
Not Wearing Mangalsutra And Sindoor Cannot Be Reasons For Divorce: Bombay High Court

Though the Bombay high court did not grant the husband divorce from his wife, does this actually benefit her? She has to continue living her life with a despicable man who tries to control her consent.

Viewed with this angle Gauhati HC judgement has liberated her from her despicable spouse!

https://thelogicalindian.com/news/mangalsutra-sindoor-divorce/
 
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Not Wearing Mangalsutra And Sindoor Cannot Be Reasons For Divorce: Bombay High Court

Though the Bombay high court did not grant the husband divorce from his wife, does this actually benefit her? She has to continue living her life with a despicable man who tries to control her consent.

Viewed with this angle Gauhati HC judgement has liberated her from her despicable spouse!

https://thelogicalindian.com/news/mangalsutra-sindoor-divorce/
Bombay High Court was right for the wrong reason.
Gauhati HC is wrong for all reasons. The women will not get any support now.
 
Its simple..before marriage all these should be settled.

Just dont marry a man who will expect you to wear all the signs and symbols of marriage if you do not wish to wear it 24/7.

When a man comes to ask for a bride(if its an arranged marriage), you can observe his family and see how they are.
If they look way to dependent on external symbols then just say No and wait for a man who would seem flexible and not too dependent on externality.

Actually truly "spiritual" people are not too worried about "external".
 
Its simple..before marriage all these should be settled.

Just dont marry a man who will expect you to wear all the signs and symbols of marriage if you do not wish to wear it 24/7.

When a man comes to ask for a bride(if its an arranged marriage), you can observe his family and see how they are.
If they look way to dependent on external symbols then just say No and wait for a man who would seem flexible and not too dependent on externality.

Actually truly "spiritual" people are not too worried about "external".

A good point. I am not talking about spiritual, it is the social norm.
In metro cities, in India, it is rare to find an Indian woman in Indian clothes. They wear jeans and a T-shirt, no one is wearing a bindi or any "married" women symbols.

People wear jewelry or Traditional Indian clothes for an Indian ceremony. That should be an accepted norm.
Even married women going to a westernized gala event do not wear Indian garments.
I have seen a new bride coming to town from the village, shuns her Indian dress and marriage symbols, and converts to jeans and t-Shirt for convenience and to join her social friends.
The judges should be forced to undergo sensitivity training before they comment on social behavior.

1593776870272.png


Is she Married? Who cares, She is proudly defending the coutry and that is what matters.
 
With sindoor and suhagan (married woman whose husband is still alive) as part of their titles and the heroines cry with happiness whenever the hero fills their hair with red powder and in some cases, even blood (!). In a parodic clip from the film Om Shanti Om, which has since become iconic, the heroine Shantipriya, extols the virtues of vermillion: it is God’s blessing, a married woman’s crowning glory, everything a woman has always dreamt of.

Ek-chutki-sindoor-2.gif


Women who play villains in TV soaps and Bollywood films are often marked by their refusal to conform to the saintly sindoor sisterhood of long suffering, self-sacrificing sanskari Hindu naari who give it all up for their husbands and their families.

But this is not just a ridiculous movie trope. In rural Jharkhand Rita Devi has developed skin infections from applying sindoor in her parting but she feels she cannot stop. “If I didn’t apply sindoor, it would feel strange, I would feel like a widow. It wouldn’t feel good. In earlier times it was believed that sindoor must be applied for the husband’s long life. I also fear my husband may suffer harm if I don’t apply sindoor.” Similarly, Amrita, who works for Video Volunteers and never wears sindoor, occasionally applies it just to get away from tiresome questioning. “I wore it at my cousin’s wedding just to stop people from making an issue out of it,” she says. There’s clearly immense societal pressure on women to conform to the role of the ‘good wife’ not just in action but also in appearance.

The implication is obviously that a married woman is ‘owned’, property of another man. Her sindoor, red bangles, mangalsutra all indicate this status. Men obviously do not need these markers to indicate their marital status because they cannot be owned – they don’t change their surnames or residences post marriage either. A woman is groomed to become a wife, nothing else and widowhood is the worst fate that could befall women. Not only sindoor, a whole host of rituals are designed to pray for the husband’s long life. Needless to say while women fast and pray to lengthen their spouses’ lives, no such rituals are performed for them.

Sindoor-Meme.jpg


Patriarchy is a many-headed beast that coerces women to internalise misogynist symbols, compels them to and makes them feel good about being virtuous. It also marks those who dare to question such mores as ‘bad girls’. It’s time we stopped rationalising and upholding discrimination through official policies, private practices and fake science.

 
Looks like we have to really understand and interpret the concept of marriage as a social phenomenon
in the 21 st century.because as I feel the individual freedom and space for individual privacy of the partners getting more and more important with present day womenfolk getting more educated and
economically independent .
The days of the Dharmapatni typified in TVserials or in movies ,i doubt it will survive any more?.
The days of male chauvinism may also go away along with this if you will consider the male female ratio
in the population.Also we have media influence ,western cultural impact coming from globalization.
The judge will only see the point to allow or disallow the request.esp.if the woman feels strongly
about separation,however flimsy may be the reasons stated.You cannot as judge dictate to woman
that she is wrong and willy nilly the marriage sanctity is to be protected.
 
Mostly 'traditional" men are insecure.
They actually fear death so much that they feel a red powder and a mangal sutra holds their lives ransom.

But a man wears no signs and symbols of marriage yet a woman doesnt fear death.
 
It seems the women of today have deviated from the traditional societal role and the way of life envisaged for them in vedas and other scriptures in the name of a false sense of liberation or so called feminist freedom.In fact a true housewife or now called home maker enjoys all the freedom without raising her
voice in a family environment..I have a feeling that the family norms have somewhere slipped with the pampering of the girl child by the parents.
Also this is Kaliyuga,a tower of Babel may be in the offing.
 
It seems the women of today have deviated from the traditional societal role and the way of life envisaged for them in vedas and other scriptures in the name of a false sense of liberation or so called feminist freedom.In fact a true housewife or now called home maker enjoys all the freedom without raising her
voice in a family environment..I have a feeling that the family norms have somewhere slipped with the pampering of the girl child by the parents.
Also this is Kaliyuga,a tower of Babel may be in the offing.

Do men Live life as described in Vedas?
Do we have indoor plumbing? Was it there during Vedas?
Do we not travel by Car, Train, Ship, and Plane? Was it as described in Vedas?

Society changes, practices changes that is life, if you stay in yesteryears you will remain stuck and miserable.

World and society go on with or without your participation.

The world has witnessed more drastic changes and still continues on.

The days when men used to dictate how women must live their life is gone forever (except in the Taliban or Muslim world). Let us accept and celebrate our daughters.
 
Do men Live life as described in Vedas?
Do we have indoor plumbing? Was it there during Vedas?
Do we not travel by Car, Train, Ship, and Plane? Was it as described in Vedas?

Society changes, practices changes that is life, if you stay in yesteryears you will remain stuck and miserable.

World and society go on with or without your participation.

The world has witnessed more drastic changes and still continues on.

The days when men used to dictate how women must live their life is gone forever (except in the Taliban or Muslim world). Let us accept and celebrate our daughters.
Fully Agree,
With the changing times ,the rules of the game are also changing,We are probably moving in the direction of matriarchy. Public stress and awareness of the importance of woman's education
may speed up the process.We may have more woman judges sensitive to women's feelings in
such case laws.
As pointed out by Renukaji,marriage may turn out to an contractual exercise terms being mutually
settled thru communication between partners.But its susustainability and social good would still be
questions with no clear cut answers and we may see as many no.of judgements as how each judge may view the situation.
 
Do men Live life as described in Vedas?
Do we have indoor plumbing? Was it there during Vedas?
Do we not travel by Car, Train, Ship, and Plane? Was it as described in Vedas?

Society changes, practices changes that is life, if you stay in yesteryears you will remain stuck and miserable.

World and society go on with or without your participation.

The world has witnessed more drastic changes and still continues on.

The days when men used to dictate how women must live their life is gone forever (except in the Taliban or Muslim world). Let us accept and celebrate our daughters.
rightly said - do all men wear the shikha ? Don't all men wear western clothes ? How many do Sandhya vandanam ? [ or atleast gayatri japam ] How many wear the vibhuti / namam as a regular feature ? Its rather unfortunate to target women for everything - let the man wear a pancha kaccham and go to his corporate meetings before finding fault with his wife not wearing the sindoor / bangles , etc.
Its not only the brahmin who has the yagnopavidham - the other castes too have it - how many wear it ?
times have changed ; men have to accept this and go along .
I totally agree that our customs and rituals have to be kept alive - I am not one to live a westernised life , but one should have a proper perspective ; it matters more to teach your kids the right values of respect to elders, chanting the Gayatri, [ all can do it - its not a man's prerogative !] ,learning and reciting slokas, being truthful and honest than nitpicking about mere appearances
 
Sanatana Dharma or the Dharma Sastras have been changing from time to time. In fact life style changes occur first in the brahmin community and others usually follow. But it is worth knowing the principles of the sustainable wed lock as per the Dharma Sastras and try to preserve the values of good relationship between husband and wife. For example, the husband wears an additional set of poonal for the sake of his wife. The mangal sutra and the mantras chanted during the marriage ceremony do have valuable significance.
 
Sanatana Dharma or the Dharma Sastras have been changing from time to time. In
fact life style changes occur first in the brahmin community and others usually follow. But it is worth knowing the principles of the sustainable wed lock as per the Dharma Sastras and try to preserve the values of good relationship between husband and wife. For example, the husband wears an additional set of poonal for the sake of his wife. The mangal sutra and the mantras chanted during the marriage ceremony do have valuable significance.

There is a change over from மாட்டு வண்டி to Maruthi -

In this change over wearing seat belt across chest has valuable significance than an additional set of poonal !

Why not try look for answer to emerging issues in the light of Dharma Sastras instead of resorting to obscurantism and.keep silent on the issues like single parents their emotional needs financial security etc?
 
Reference to dharma sastras is made hoping that the forum, organised by tamil brahmins who have a bondage with the same, may be interested to discuss subjects of social issues around the fulcrum of Dharma. It may help us know where we stand with regards to the time tested teachings we beleive in common.
The mention of dharma sastras and the opposition to it serves atleast to know that there are members who like more of sensational debates. I wish them all the best.
With regards to the additional set of poonal, I am sure it will not foul with the seat belt if they are treated / handled seperately. I only hope the seat belts do not break the poonals.
However, the efforts to stimulate the conflicts are highly appreciated.
 
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Reference to dharma sastras is made hoping that the forum, organised by tamil brahmins who have a bondage with the same, may be interested to discuss subjects of social issues around the fulcrum of Dharma. (#19)

Exactly for the same reason social issue concerning Aaj ki nari was posted for discussions

Why not try look for answer to emerging issues in the light of Dharma Sastras instead of resorting to obscurantism and.keep silent on the issues like single parents their emotional needs financial security etc?(#18)

This discussion - compulsion of changing times and emerging issues - and not to shy away as sensation !

Cooled head looses 'Cool' !
 
Thanks for making the cool, cooler.
Yes, even as per Dharma Sastras, not wearing sindoor is okay for the present time as long as the individual does not know the significance. The dharma sastras permit one to follow his or her conscience in the absence of knowledge or source for reference. However, there is an issue with willingly not adhering to a known and commonly accepted practice and custorm with `I will do what I feel' attitude with no concern for others feelings and sentiments. It will naturally attract objections . The judgement allowing divorce in the subject case must have been made thus considering all the arguments put forth.
However, had the compulsion for not wearing sindoor been explained to the other party in a convicing manner, there could have been an amicable settlement and it would have saved the precious time of the court. I guess the reference made to the issues of a single parents is about the difficulties the divorced lady will face. It will be nice, if the courts of law become considerate for such issues before issuing orders on divorce cases.
In this contest the Dharma Sastras are very considerate that it envisages protection to women at all times, viz. protection by the father since birth, protection by the husband after marriage, and protection by the son after the demise of the father. Can one not apprectiate that Dharma Sastras score better than the present day courts of law ?
Issues pertaining to single parents are not sensational but serious ones. It needs careful and sympathetic considerations. It is time that a genuine legislation is brought for protection of single parents similar to the Senior Citizens Protection, Act.
Let us hope for the best and it happens at the earliest.
 
However, there is an issue with willingly not adhering to a known and commonly accepted practice and custorm with `I will do what I feel' attitude with no concern for others feelings and sentiments.(#21)

' I will not do what I don't feel' conviction is at play - and seeing this as no concern for others feeling and sentiments is injustice to an act of conviction!

Do Dharma Sasthras permit this?
 
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When one considers self and self alone, there is no society. Dharma Sasthras deal with duties for all inluding individuals leading detached life and those living with attachment to others / society. One need not do what he or she does not feel like doing as an individual leading a detached life. But when you live in association with another it stipulates duties meant for social life. An individual is never forced to do what he or she does not feel like doing and liberty is granded with no strings attached. In our subject case too, the same has happend where the individual is liberated from all bondage and made free to adhere to the conviction ` I will not do what I don't feel', in its full measure. Hence there is no room for any regret or pride with either of the parties.
Perhaps, it wise not to convert ones conviction into action with out considering its consequences.
Even the most liberal fundamental rights granted by the CoI, are subject to reasonable restrictions.
 
An individual is never forced to do what he or she does not feel like doing and liberty is granded with no strings attached(#23)

Response:

Means individual has not violated dharma!


Perhaps, it wise not to convert ones conviction into action with out considering its consequences. (#23)

Response:

What are the possible consequences & how individual is responsible for them when there is no violation of Dharma?

No word salads please.
 
It is obvious that in marital relationship, one cannot consider as individual alone. While the `self alone' act as an individual (in isolation) is not violation, it is, while in a relationship government by several visible and subtle aspects of dharma. A self styled act that is not acceptable to the other party in any relationship naturally leads to conflict. Also attitude of such acts visibly challenges the fundamentals of relationship taking the conflict to higher level. Merely not doing or doing an act with no physical consequences is perhaps ignore-able but the attitude to disregard relationship is not taken lightly.
As mentioned earlier, changes do occur and perhaps these (so called omissions) may be treated as acceptable in society as the time changes. Sudden changes are always glaringly visible and so are the oppositions. For example, the sindhoor made from turmeric was replaced with stickers and has become a generally acceptable change only because the attitude to preserve terms of relationship is maintained.
The consequences, in the present context is the loss of relationship, nothing else. In the present day context the fabric of erstwhile society is weakened particularly in metros or cosmopolitan societies and none bothers about what the other person does, with exception of closely related family members. Gradually, the bondage of relationship even within the nuclear families may be weakened or even broken in the future (near or far) if the spirit of Dharma is not appreciated or is ignored.
Acting in self-alone-style autonomy while in relationship is violation of Dharma indeed!
Dharma is not a whip to slash at every body but a time tested way of life. It changes with time and it may be allowed to take its natural course than bending it to suit every one's convenience.
Adding lines after lines in the post / reply is not flare up arguments or to inflict pain on those who are disturbed by the Verdict. It is with a hope that seeing it from the Dharmic angle may bring peace to all including the parties in dispute.
 

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