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Respect women’s autonomy

kannan

Member
Thanks for making the cool, cooler.
Yes, even as per Dharma Sastras, not wearing sindoor is okay for the present time as long as the individual does not know the significance. The dharma sastras permit one to follow his or her conscience in the absence of knowledge or source for reference. However, there is an issue with willingly not adhering to a known and commonly accepted practice and custorm with `I will do what I feel' attitude with no concern for others feelings and sentiments. It will naturally attract objections . The judgement allowing divorce in the subject case must have been made thus considering all the arguments put forth.
However, had the compulsion for not wearing sindoor been explained to the other party in a convicing manner, there could have been an amicable settlement and it would have saved the precious time of the court. I guess the reference made to the issues of a single parents is about the difficulties the divorced lady will face. It will be nice, if the courts of law become considerate for such issues before issuing orders on divorce cases.
In this contest the Dharma Sastras are very considerate that it envisages protection to women at all times, viz. protection by the father since birth, protection by the husband after marriage, and protection by the son after the demise of the father. Can one not apprectiate that Dharma Sastras score better than the present day courts of law ?
Issues pertaining to single parents are not sensational but serious ones. It needs careful and sympathetic considerations. It is time that a genuine legislation is brought for protection of single parents similar to the Senior Citizens Protection, Act.
Let us hope for the best and it happens at the earliest.
 

Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
However, there is an issue with willingly not adhering to a known and commonly accepted practice and custorm with `I will do what I feel' attitude with no concern for others feelings and sentiments.(#21)

' I will not do what I don't feel' conviction is at play - and seeing this as no concern for others feeling and sentiments is injustice to an act of conviction!

Do Dharma Sasthras permit this?
 
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kannan

Member
When one considers self and self alone, there is no society. Dharma Sasthras deal with duties for all inluding individuals leading detached life and those living with attachment to others / society. One need not do what he or she does not feel like doing as an individual leading a detached life. But when you live in association with another it stipulates duties meant for social life. An individual is never forced to do what he or she does not feel like doing and liberty is granded with no strings attached. In our subject case too, the same has happend where the individual is liberated from all bondage and made free to adhere to the conviction ` I will not do what I don't feel', in its full measure. Hence there is no room for any regret or pride with either of the parties.
Perhaps, it wise not to convert ones conviction into action with out considering its consequences.
Even the most liberal fundamental rights granted by the CoI, are subject to reasonable restrictions.
 

Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
An individual is never forced to do what he or she does not feel like doing and liberty is granded with no strings attached(#23)

Response:

Means individual has not violated dharma!


Perhaps, it wise not to convert ones conviction into action with out considering its consequences. (#23)

Response:

What are the possible consequences & how individual is responsible for them when there is no violation of Dharma?

No word salads please.
 

kannan

Member
It is obvious that in marital relationship, one cannot consider as individual alone. While the `self alone' act as an individual (in isolation) is not violation, it is, while in a relationship government by several visible and subtle aspects of dharma. A self styled act that is not acceptable to the other party in any relationship naturally leads to conflict. Also attitude of such acts visibly challenges the fundamentals of relationship taking the conflict to higher level. Merely not doing or doing an act with no physical consequences is perhaps ignore-able but the attitude to disregard relationship is not taken lightly.
As mentioned earlier, changes do occur and perhaps these (so called omissions) may be treated as acceptable in society as the time changes. Sudden changes are always glaringly visible and so are the oppositions. For example, the sindhoor made from turmeric was replaced with stickers and has become a generally acceptable change only because the attitude to preserve terms of relationship is maintained.
The consequences, in the present context is the loss of relationship, nothing else. In the present day context the fabric of erstwhile society is weakened particularly in metros or cosmopolitan societies and none bothers about what the other person does, with exception of closely related family members. Gradually, the bondage of relationship even within the nuclear families may be weakened or even broken in the future (near or far) if the spirit of Dharma is not appreciated or is ignored.
Acting in self-alone-style autonomy while in relationship is violation of Dharma indeed!
Dharma is not a whip to slash at every body but a time tested way of life. It changes with time and it may be allowed to take its natural course than bending it to suit every one's convenience.
Adding lines after lines in the post / reply is not flare up arguments or to inflict pain on those who are disturbed by the Verdict. It is with a hope that seeing it from the Dharmic angle may bring peace to all including the parties in dispute.
 

Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
is obvious that in marital relationship, one cannot consider as individual alone. While the `self alone' act as an individual (in isolation) is not violation, it is, while in a relationship government by several visible and subtle aspects of dharma. (#25)

The question is Respect women autonomy - Does shastra allow that?

Respect women autonomy is nil in marital relationship but only male authority?

Word Salads I get in a new plate & new thread as well!

Original plate becomes வழ வழ கொழ கொழ - Like வெளக்கெண்ண வாழப்பழம் !

Devi to Doormat!

Hinduism has an impressive capacity to sustain contradictions. Within its fold, Hinduism simultaneously holds dualism and non-dualism; devotion, doubt and denial; self-denying spiritualism and self-gratifying materialism. One such contradiction is the status of women. Hindu mores deify women as the venerable mother, and as formidable goddesses, even as they relegate them to submissive inferiority.
 
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ekaputra

Member
At the outset I must confess that I have not read any of the traditional Dharmic texts (and probably never will) but since some of the practices in the name of Shastras, have affected in the past and may affect in the future people I know and care for ...
it is not surprising that many shastras that have been handed down are "of the male, by the male, for the male" since these were drafted by males.

Added to this are some ugly, shameful and cruel practices against women that have been added over the centuries that have now come to be accepted as Shastras, though I doubt there is any sanction in the traditional texts. For instance, the practice of humiliating a widowed woman by breaking bangles, wiping Sindoor/ vermilion and rubbing it into her that she is a WIDOW and should accept the fact that even if she continues as a first class citizen of the country, she has lost her social status and she is only a third class citizen in social and family circles and cannot take part in auspicious rituals, even if it is the marriage of her own children and even though she has the greatest and in my opinion sole claim (as her husband is deceased). Up to my great grandmother's time there was even the uglier practice of tonsuring widows.

But, I am conservative and I still feel that while a woman should enjoy the same autonomy as a man, it is different when it comes to parents. Parents (father or mother) should limit their own autonomy for they owe a duty to their children. And when it comes to raising children a mother has unarguably greater influence over the children and plays a bigger role in moulding the children and for this reason a mother has a greater duty to put the welfare of her children over autonomy though it is equally important for the father to do likewise.

I fully subscribe to this well known saying of Napoleon:
"Give me good mothers and I will give you a great nation"
 

vAYALORE

New member
There are two issues (1) What dharma sastraas say (2) How customs and traditions have mutated over a period of time. As per former, women enjoy more rights than men. Without wife's permission, a man can't feed a braahman or even an athithi. He can start a homam or shradhdham or whatever. Kings can't do yagams without wife. Wife ensures man conducts life as per dharma sasthra. All wealth are held in te name of wife. She is Namma Veettu mahalakshmi (in Telugu ma inti Mahalakshmi). The concept of autonomy was alien to our culture. It was mutual accommodation, mutual trust, mutual loves, sense of security. Whereas there are manthraas strating from garbhadhaanam to pumsavanam, naamakaranam, etc till aparakaryam, we do not have manthraas for divorce. A brahmin can never take a second wife whereas a kshatriya could. Rules varied depending on occupation. Thie value of sense of security this gives is only known who do not enjoy it. Air is free. We do not attach value. One incident from my life. In 1990s i used to work in Botswana and my wife was India for my son's education and care of my mom and her mom. My collegue told me: You are lucky. You are Indian. When you go on leave , you wife will be eagerly waiting for you. Not our case. If we are away for months, we don't know whether wife will be at home at all.And when i was in Gulf, i used to see a lot of Indian housemaids all alone leaving husband and children back in India with trust. Customs and family traditions unfortunately mutate over time. Dowry is a tradition - not a sashtraa injunction. Since women carried very hhigh risk during child birth in those days and were considered timid, men were forced to own up responsibility of protection. My son is teaching my grand daughter martial arts, swimming from age of 4 and he says music, dance could wiat.If we are self entitled and focus on "I" . "my autonomy" we will never be happy whatever the autonomy one enjoys. When we share, trust, accommodate, love and interdependent, we have a joyous life.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
The combination of religious deities with the results of violence make for a powerful message in this Indian domestic violence campaign.


Featuring the Hindu goddesses Lakshmi, Durga and Saraswati, the shots show the women in typical serene yet powerful poses.

But each goddess bears the scars of physical violence -a graze, black eye, a fat lip and cuts.



If one wife will not agree the King can marry as many queens he wants, and in addition, he can have multiple concubines. Do you call that the queen is in an exalted position? She is more like decoration.

Talk is cheap actions prove it otherwise. Women did not have any power.

All wealth are held in te name of wife. She is Namma Veettu mahalakshmi (in Telugu ma inti Mahalakshmi).
Absolutely hollow words, the husband controls and even gambles away the wife. Yudistra gambled away Draupadi as his possession. The man controls the wealth, and even if he had only one wife, she looses all power the moment the husband dies. Widows did not have any power. Just visit Vrindavan and see the plight of widows. Dharmasastra did not protect them.


 
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Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
But each goddess bears the scars of physical violence -a graze, black eye, a fat lip and cuts.(#29)

Dharma is ossified . Not flexible ! Dharma is same for celestial goddess & earthy aaaji ki nari ! Women will continue to be battered ! Women should break or break away from rigid ossified dharma.!
 

usaiyer

Member
The goddesses and scars business is pretty old campaign (oct.2013)material and and often misused
as we know of that famous painter M.F Husain.The woman represents shakti in our Hindu culture and
she only helps men perform the various functions gods not exempt from this..The concept of Ardhanari image of god is implying equality of men and women in society.
But the mistreatment of women is in my opinion attributable to cultural decline as we moved one yugam to another, why the deterioration in culture is a point to ponder and discuss.?
Is it due to commercialism,mis-focused education and being copy cats of western glamour and so on?
 

prasad1

Well-known member
The goddesses and scars business is pretty old campaign (oct.2013)material and and often misused
as we know of that famous painter M.F Husain.The woman represents shakti in our Hindu culture and
she only helps men perform the various functions gods not exempt from this..The concept of Ardhanari image of god is implying equality of men and women in society.
But the mistreatment of women is in my opinion attributable to cultural decline as we moved one yugam to another, why the deterioration in culture is a point to ponder and discuss.?
Is it due to commercialism,mis-focused education and being copy cats of western glamour and so on?

What is ideal and what is actual is two different things.

The concept of Ardhanari image of god is implying equality of men and women in society.
In whose dream?
It is very easy to assume anything, and write rosy words. In reality, it means nothing.
Please read post#30.
The day men stop controlling women and stop dictating what is appropriate dress or ornament for women, women are trapped.

You are an intelligent person please don't pretend that you do not see the double standards.

 

Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
People otherwise rightious - fevicoled to their dharma to fit them personally were witnesses to Adharma snapped on help lees woman under their nose ! This is Mahabharatham.

Personification of Dharma banished pregnant Sita as he is Dharma bound!
The message is clear - Women are not Devis they are doormat! Adharma justified as Dharma
 

renuka

Well-known member
A lot of inequality we see stems from fear.
There is acute fear in almost every society in the world when it comes to women.
The fear of the male of losing a female becos she may go astray.
This is the primal behavior of "my property" and my property should behave according to my dictates.

Even women do this too especially the Indian woman does this to her son and wrecks his life in the process where she doesnt allow him to lead a happy life with his wife and wants her "property"(son) to be at her service.

So who is to blame?
No one.
Its just basic instincts of a human.

We have to get real too, in the past a man had no way to know if his wife is carrying the baby of his DNA.

That is the privilege that only a woman has ..as to know who is the father of her child.
But now there is DNA paternity testing so fear is less!LOL

Now, why do women allow themselves to be treated so badly ?
Economic dependence!
They had to stay becos where else to go?

Now you can see that divorce rates are getting higher becos they female does not have to put up with abusive behavior of men and also re-marriage is not frowned upon anymore.
Parents are more supportive of their divorced daughters too.

Society is changing.
Both men and women need to reach a state of co-dependence and not co-dominance...only then there would be actual harmony and not grit and bear or divorce and F off.
 

kannan

Member
The question is Respect women autonomy - Does shastra allow that?
"When the Dharma Shastra expects that all religious rites to be done together by wife and husband, it also grants the wife autonomy to decide whether to join or not in the performance of the rites.
It is appropriate, at this juncture, to look for the significance of the newly wedded bride kicking the bowl of rice kept on the door step scattering the rice inside the house. It will seem as an act of grave disrespect as rice is usually regarded as Goddess Lakshmi. It only signifies granting autonomy to the newly wedded wife to act with discretion even in an unfairly manner (called niyoga) to protect and manage the house. (The rice kept at the door step is nothing but symbolic to the families treasures or values being slipped out of the house)."

"Respect for women autonomy is nil in marital relationship but only male authority?"
In any relationship, autonomy can never be 1:1 if they are not exercised in the same direction. Even when they are exercised with out a common purpose, they will only run parallel and will never converge at a point of harmony or common interest.
We also had matriarchal traditions in Kerala where the women enjoyed 100 % autonomy. But it is now disappearing (almost disappeared since it also had several demerits).

"Word Salads I get in a new plate & new thread as well!
Original plate becomes வழ வழ கொழ கொழ - Like வெளக்கெண்ண வாழப்பழம் !"

The point in issue in the present thread from the perspectives of the Brahmin community is naturally to see whether the verdict of the court case is in any way related to the Dharma Shastras. When done, it is also to be realized that the Dharma Shastra also prescribes different codes of conduct for different people according to their Vernas. It will be naturally opposed / rejected from today's perspective where we practice ( or at least preach) equality before law. It was in a way more secular in nature than today that it allowed codes of conduct according to the nature and need of different peoples. When the Court's verdict was also based on religious traditions and practices (which were more distinctly dealt with in Dharma Sastras than any of the present laws) reference to Dharma Shastras is quite relevant and justified.

"Devi to Doormat!"
It was not, It is not and It will never be the intention of the Indian Psyche to relegate Women in any way. There may be deplorable incidents, as crimes happen in society and they are to be dealt with iron hands on case to case basis rather than rushing to such conclusion.

"Hinduism has an impressive capacity to sustain contradictions. Within its fold, Hinduism simultaneously holds dualism and non-dualism; devotion, doubt and denial; self-denying spiritualism and self-gratifying materialism. One such contradiction is the status of women. Hindu mores deify women as the venerable mother, and as formidable goddesses, even as they relegate them to submissive inferiority."

As mentioned above, the character of different communities are different and there can not be any practical common yardstick to measure the social behaviour of people from different quarters, at least today. Perhaps, we can discuss what happens in the Brahmin community First (for bringing about autonomy for Aaj ki nari) which will be much easier to achieve. Of course we can do `copy-cat' the successful strategy to benefit others.
 

Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
There may be deplorable incidents, as crimes happen in society and they are to be dealt with iron hands on case to case basis rather than rushing to such conclusion.(#35)

Brazen it out - Don't bother about the cause. - Dharma takes care of such aberrations - Don't waste time to find vaccine - Its no Corona Pandemic - but an endemic in our society!

Of course we can do `copy-cat' the successful strategy to benefit others(35#)

கையில் வெண்ணெய் - நெய்க்கு அலைவானேன்?

Successful strategy on hand Xerox it instead of hunting for strategy in Dharmasastras!

It was not, It is not and It will never be the intention of the Indian Psyche to relegate Women in any way. (#35)

Intention with no action! Dharma should be honoured with Nobel like Obama!
 

usaiyer

Member
#30 : female scars and ill treatment of women in marriage is as much of a fact as the night is dark and
the day is bright. Even Eiswarya Roy and Amber heard noteworthy female personalities have not been
spared from this .So when a woman is assertive ,men react even though finally you know who is the
winner.Modern day we call these ego problems accentuated by our purposeless school education and
economic independence of the weaker sex.
Dharma is ossified.rigid and inflexible ? Sanatana Dharma and principles of Dharma emanate from vedas,They are like ISI standards. The standards are for us to follow, The female is the core for the family and she only can help grow the family tree.The male can only play a supportive role.
'Manaivi mudal vadivam,Kanavan pindayavadivam,Mahan muzhumaiyin vadivam"
Man's life is incomplete without having a wife .Man is generally a stronger person than the female.
 

prasad1

Well-known member
Man is generally a stronger person than the female.
A man's view I suppose.
A gorilla is stronger than a man, so what.
Brute force is not the only standard of superiority.
Women can be stronger in many ways. They prove it every day.
 

Janaki Jambunathan

Well-known member
So when a woman is assertive men react even though finally you know who is the
winner.Modern day we call these ego problems accentuated by our purposeless school education and
economic independence of the weaker sex.(#37)

Response:

( Women ) weaker sex - should be submissive - Dharma mandated ! பேய்க்கு வாக்கபட்டா புளியமரம் ஏறணும்! Don't go to college - climb up புளியமரம் - shouldn't go up in any other vocation!

Archaic dharma!

பாரதி கண்ணம்மா - is not weak by sex - has enough reason to break dharma! பெண் என்றால் பேய் இரங்காவிடில் பேயை அடித்து விரட்டுவாள்!

Dharma is ossified.rigid and inflexible ?

Dharma and principles of Dharma emanate from vedas,They are like ISI standards. The standards are for us to follow, (37#)

Response:

Standards are regularly upgraded - Dharma never!.

Moved from மாட்டு வண்டி to மாருதி! Maruthi upgraded to BS VI !
 
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