Re-energising the Kanchi mutt

[sapr333]

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not sure about this one happy. also this jogged me to reply to some other posts here, with reference to galileo, one of my heroes.

to the best of my knowledge, and from what has been widely documented, galileo escaped the inquisition, by rescinding his theories of heliocentric solar system, and publicly conforming the the official catholic doctrine of that time - re geocentric system.

galileo had friends in the high places of the italian city states, who shielded him from the charges of heresy by the inquisition, but for the price of his, he silenced himself.

except on his deathbed, after receiving the extreme unction at his death bed, he is said to have whispered 'but the earth still revolves around the sun'

copernicus, in poland, and kepler in germany, were too far away from the clutches of the inquisition and hence maintained their dignity.

infact, most of ancient greek and roman thoughts were burnt by the medieval catholic church. what was left, was in the old library of alexandria, and was preserved by muslim arabs

the western world rediscovered those texts during and after reformation, and over the past few centuries claimed to be inheritors of graeco-roman civilization.

i have always wondered, why the arabs did not build upon the knowledge of aristotle or ptolemy, for after all they were physically closer to those folks than those in western europe. i forget the name of the englishman who brought this hope... for he was wondering this topic in the context, that had the arabs furthered their learning, the shires of oxford and cambridge would have been topped by the cresecent and not the cross. one of history's unanswered 'what if's

Shri.Kunjuppu, I perfectly buy your point..esp, the last paragraph..

Thats why I quote here often IBN, a greatest Islamic Arabic philosopher.theologian, who's writing 'On Quest for God'were once burnt and made an outcast, later only to be copied by the Catholic Church,to an extend baptising him from Ibn to Avvero..

 

[hariharan1972]

I have a small question, before i validate your stand.....

btw,Dont feel hurt.. When you 'posted a poetry', which was appreicated by myself , and many of the participants. . Unfortunately, it was pointed by another fellow participant, that it was found elsewhere in another forum karuthu.com..It seems you havent objected it..

Could you please clarify your stand on this, before I could respond your view....Thanks in advance..

Sapr,

Not clear what's the connect.

But still the clarifications.

1. Did i copy someone's word ?

No. The 'other person' who has posted in karuthu is myself.


2. Did i feel offended when arun shanker asked me ?

No. He sought a clarification and I clarified.

I have a friend, who genuinely "writes poetry". I maintain i just scribble. I have posted his poems elsewhere without quoting his name but at the same time acknowledging it as the work of a "friend" (He doesnt want his name to be revealed). So it is natural to post something one has enjoyed reading so it is natural for arun to know whether i "quoted" someone.

I surely dont have interest and the intellect to participate in the discussions that you have had with HH-ji. But when i saw, a normally sober sapr making an unusually untenable claim, i interjected. Please dont read anything more to it. Not even less.

 

[sapr333]

Dear sapr333,

Just a few observations on my part after reading the discussions between you and Srmathi HH Ji:

1. Srimathi HH Ji has every right to ask for explanations to your postings. And you have every right not to give explanations, AS LONG AS YOU STATE SO WHEN YOU POST YOUR FIRST RESPONSE. To alter the rules of the game in mid discussion to 'remain silent' or 'to stop these kinds of discussions', on legitimate questions being asked is not correct. This way anyone can say anything without having to explain and that is not the intent of a Forum like this.

2. It is good to lead a discussion up to a point of impasse and then if there is no advancement, at that point you may disengage. This gives the readers a full spectrum of pros and cons.

3. I also noticed that you tend to shy away from some discussions while having no reservations on others under the rubrik of 'not belonging to any particular religion'. Seems to me like if one does this then one can fairly conclude that the person definitely has a particular leaning. Again, on your leaning, seems to me and you have admitted this - that you lean towards monotheism of Christian kind. Again, there is no problem if you are, but it seems strange that you are saying that you are 'open minded', yet would not discuss certain topics related to Christianity.

4. We talked about this once, but again you seem to have this notion that arguments are 'won' or 'lost' here. I thought you are here trying to find 'Truth'. If you are,where does winning or losing figure in, on anyone's part? One can win an argument but lose an opportunity to know 'Truth'. Is this not so?

I am making all the above statements as a Form participant and not as a 'Moderator'.

Regards,
KRS

Shri.KRS,

1) I remained silent, because of your own 'moderation jist'.. Though I know my thoughts are curbed,still, I know I also should stick to the forum norms.. Hence I didnt drag the discussion further.

2) Giving the readers a full pros/con.. Yes, you(as Mod) need to come out of the 'red tape'.. i know personally, you would be 'ok', but then, keeping in mind the sensitivity of fellow participants and the objective of this forum, i remained silent, keeping in mind your 'early warning signals'.

3) This is something I dont like it.. You yourself accepted,that aetheism is OK with you, as long as I declare, I, true to my heart, dont want to bias with any ISM's...I was only sharing the pea-nut knowledge what I have.. You may call it as 'Monotheism', but then, im sure you would appreciate me, I debated with a broad concept of 'Monotheism' than confining myself with any religions.. To be frank, I wish to be anonymous... Let the 'words' speak..Btw, didnt I convincingly answer the question on INCEST?.. though I know its as an exemption ,that,I took to break the forum rules..

4) I have clearly explained my statement about arguments on being 'Won' and 'lost' in an earlier post on Science-Miracles, by citing how Newton lost to Einstein, and how further Einstein gonna loose in future.. No wonder, I may loose out to someone here,tomorrow.. But the rules of the forum remain same..


Shri. KRS, while on Moderator Shoes, if you were to say this, I would have really appreciated it.. This what I've also been expecting (wish you had a different handle for Mod ID).. If so, some the questions raised by H.H (definitely genuine though), do have a pending response from my side.. Awaiting your clearence..

 

[sapr333]

Sapr,

Not clear what's the connect.

But still the clarifications.

1. Did i copy someone's word ?

No. The 'other person' who has posted in karuthu is myself.


2. Did i feel offended when arun shanker asked me ?

No. He sought a clarification and I clarified.

I have a friend, who genuinely "writes poetry". I maintain i just scribble. I have posted his poems elsewhere without quoting his name but at the same time acknowledging it as the work of a "friend" (He doesnt want his name to be revealed). So it is natural to post something one has enjoyed reading so it is natural for arun to know whether i "quoted" someone.

I surely dont have interest and the intellect to participate in the discussions that you have had with HH-ji. But when i saw, a normally sober sapr making an unusually untenable claim, i interjected. Please dont read anything more to it. Not even less.

Dear Hari,

You posted a 'Poetry' in a public forum, without giving due credit to the author.. Myself, Shri.KRS, and HH really appreciated it.. If I remember right, handle H.H openly admired you as a fan of your poetry. Shri.KRS went on to the extent, to connect you with his teen age son, with the same interest.. (if you wish, I can paste them here)

Its only when Arun 'smartly' took a call and expressed it, it went topsy turvy. And I also verified it in Karutthu.com and shared some talks with him about that.. Then I appealed to you, in this forum, to clarify aoout your 'Intellectual Property' of that poetry.. But you were silent..

Its ok, all these funs happens in forums.. Yes, one can take a 'forum' with due sanctity,and, 'nother can take it as a 'Virtual fun'... But then there is something called 'Forum ethics and etiquettes'. I'm sure this tb.com commands a good stuff with decent crowd.. Thats why I got addicted to it.


Moral of the story : Give due credit to the author.. Respect 'Intellectual Property rights'..

PS: Poetic skills of a person can be guaged from his his posts(basic writing)...Apologize if I had resorted to anything personal..

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri.Kunjuppu, I perfectly buy your point..esp, the last paragraph..

Thats why I quote here often IBN, a greatest Islamic Arabic philosopher.theologian, who's writing 'On Quest for God'were once burnt and made an outcast, later only to be copied by the Catholic Church,to an extend baptising him from Ibn to Avvero..

sapr,

what's ibn's full name? i have looked for awero.. and cannot find any references.

thanks.

 

[tbs]

thanks for the link Kunjuppu-ji. everyone seems to be in the same boat..

this comment sooooo similar to our traditionalists:

<<Modernism, relativism, and secular humanism have poisoned the Church from the inside out slowly since Vatican II and will continue to do so if these elements are not purged... and it is good to know that Truth still means something.>>

and found this funny: http://community.nytimes.com/commen...tml?sort=oldest&offset=2?sort=oldest&offset=3

ppl welcoming the other into the episcopal church and lutherans...and i thot christianity at the core just meant belief in christ. why are these fragmented denominations getting more fragmented about each's doctrines...

but then i suppose ppl like can't understand even if they look for an answer anyways, i suppose its in the design for unitarian universalists like me to see it that way...that jesus, krishna, buddha, sri adi shankara, sri ramanuja, sri madhava..all are gods, guides, gurus, philosophers, writers, scientists...all are just one.

hi HH ji
may be after 100 years Mahatma gandhi is also GOD...lol

regards

 

[hariharan1972]

Dear Hari,

You posted a 'Poetry' in a public forum, without giving due credit to the author.. Myself, Shri.KRS, and HH really appreciated it.. If I remember right, handle H.H openly admired you as a fan of your poetry. Shri.KRS went on to the extent, to connect you with his teen age son, with the same interest.. (if you wish, I can paste them here)

Its only when Arun 'smartly' took a call and expressed it, it went topsy turvy. And I also verified it in Karutthu.com and shared some talks with him about that.. Then I appealed to you, in this forum, to clarify aoout your 'Intellectual Property' of that poetry.. But you were silent..

Its ok, all these funs happens in forums.. Yes, one can take a 'forum' with due sanctity,and, 'nother can take it as a 'Virtual fun'... But then there is something called 'Forum ethics and etiquettes'. I'm sure this tb.com commands a good stuff with decent crowd.. Thats why I got addicted to it.


Moral of the story : Give due credit to the author.. Respect 'Intellectual Property rights'..

PS: Poetic skills of a person can be guaged from his his posts(basic writing)...Apologize if I had resorted to anything personal..

Sapr,

I couldnt care less about your views as to whether i have "poetic skills" or not. I am not desperate for recognition from you or anybody for that matter.

KRS Sir was just too kind to me.

When i have said that it was me who posted in the other forum under a different handle, by repeating it here, whose intellectual property was i violating ? Unless you think that i am making a "false claim". If you think so, well, i am not desperate to prove you otherwise.

I really wonder whether you are not really understanding or feigning not to understand.

If you think i have "copied" someone's work, i am not too keen to repudiate it. So be it.

Pls check my response to arun shanker in the thread, refer post # 85 in the thread "is drinking okay"

This is what i wrote.

"though i am perfectly capable of 'insanity', at the moment, in the absence of empirical proof, i would like to believe that i am sane.

and hence my handle in karuthu is whossane

and yes the scribblings are mine and i wish to assure you, chief sapr, that i am not doing a bappi lahiri or a deva.

i just replicated it here since i felt it was relevant to the topic."

So it is NOT ME who didnt clarify, perhaps it is YOU who missed reading it.

And all this beating around the bush over few lines scribbled beats me.

What's your specific point and how does it connect to my interjection on your claim that you've "won" a debate ?

I assure you that i wouldnt be posting any more of my scribblings on this forum anymore.

KRS Sir : I know this is an unnecessary digression but couldnt help it since sapr is bringing it up again for reasons best known to him.

 

[happyhindu]

Respect 'Intellectual Property rights'..

Sapr,

i do not agree with an iota of what you have said, all baseless allegations. please, i hope we will refrain from commenting on posters from now on.

as regards IPR, sorry sir, that idea too is a western venture capitalist one, alien to the kinds of ppl who wrote the vedas and upanishads with no authorship.

it is we who like to appreciate things and we show it as such when we become aware of the one who has penned it. but taking things as far as IPR is another baseless thing as well.

 

[sapr333]

sapr,

what's ibn's full name? i have looked for awero.. and cannot find any references.

thanks.

Shri.Kunjuppu,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes


His works are just amazing!!

 

[happyhindu]

hi HH ji
may be after 100 years Mahatma gandhi is also GOD...lol

regards

why not?

tbs-ji, dunno if you have come across ambedkar being treated as a super human by some sections of the dalits. in maharashtra areas, they light agarbattis, garland and bow to ambedkar's statue as though he were god. i found that comical, but to them its a serious matter.

to each, his own. unless things are not forced upon ppl.

its human nature, for each to see things in certain ways i suppose.

well if ppl like me can't understand why everything cannot be god when god is omnipresent, it is in the design i suppose..and if you think so otherwise, its in your design perhaps...its just our thots..we don't bcome diff, just because the design of our minds are seemingly diff, we are all part of that ONE, aren't we?

 

[KRS]

Dear sri sapr333,

You should know the quality of the persons behind the posts in this Forum. This, one can assess by the transparency they display and the integrity that seeps out of their words. I have no hesitation to say as a long time poster here, I would be proud to associate with each and everyone of the posters here personally, even if I may not agree with his/her views, except for a very few minority who hide behind their 'handles' and do unnecessary non ethical, devious things to aceive whatever they hope to acheive.

Sri Hari does definitely stand tall in a list of some very immpressive folks who joined this Forum early and have nurtured it. As I said once in a different context, his integrity to me is so sure, it is like the sun coming up every morning.

Dear Sri sapr333, you are usually a very careful and thoughtful poster. I don't know what happened here. May be you can think through this situation again and correct it.

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri sapr333,
Let me lmake something clear - when I post my opinions the color of my words are usually in shades other than 'red'. And I usually declare when I am moderating and when I am not and when moderating my words are usually in shades of 'red'.

I did not want to moderate your postings, because you did not post anything wrong. So, I as a participant, gave you some opinions on my personal part, like I have done so to others (recently to Srimathi HH Ji).

So, based on this preamble, please read my response below in 'blue':

Shri.KRS,

1) I remained silent, because of your own 'moderation jist'.. Though I know my thoughts are curbed,still, I know I also should stick to the forum norms.. Hence I didnt drag the discussion further.
Yes, but my 'gist' was for you to not venture in to areas where our members would think that you are attacking Hinduism and TBs. I don't see that context here.

2) Giving the readers a full pros/con.. Yes, you(as Mod) need to come out of the 'red tape'.. i know personally, you would be 'ok', but then, keeping in mind the sensitivity of fellow participants and the objective of this forum, i remained silent, keeping in mind your 'early warning signals'.
Again - saying that Hinduism needs rennaisance type reformation' is different from what we are talking about. I understand your hesitation partly, but I fail to see how my request applies here, in what Srimathi HH Ji has been asking. My warning is for you to not just state things without being fully informed. So called 'throw out the mud to see if it sticks'. If your approach is well reasoned, please feel free to explain yourself.

3) This is something I dont like it.. You yourself accepted,that aetheism is OK with you, as long as I declare, I, true to my heart, dont want to bias with any ISM's...I was only sharing the pea-nut knowledge what I have.. You may call it as 'Monotheism', but then, im sure you would appreciate me, I debated with a broad concept of 'Monotheism' than confining myself with any religions.. To be frank, I wish to be anonymous... Let the 'words' speak..Btw, didnt I convincingly answer the question on INCEST?.. though I know its as an exemption ,that,I took to break the forum rules..
I do not understand the context. Can you please show me exactly what the posting was. What posting broke the rules as an 'exemption'?
4) I have clearly explained my statement about arguments on being 'Won' and 'lost' in an earlier post on Science-Miracles, by citing how Newton lost to Einstein, and how further Einstein gonna loose in future.. No wonder, I may loose out to someone here,tomorrow.. But the rules of the forum remain same..
Sir, Newton never lost to Einstein. It so happened that his equations are true at the macro level if you put certain conditions on Einstein's equation. Both are true and in that sense one did not lose and one won.

But that is science. Here we are talking about opinions and prejudices. How can one be a winner? Logic is only one part of the equation here.


Shri. KRS, while on Moderator Shoes, if you were to say this, I would have really appreciated it.. This what I've also been expecting (wish you had a different handle for Mod ID).. If so, some the questions raised by H.H (definitely genuine though), do have a pending response from my side.. Awaiting your clearence..
Yes, please go ahead and answer. What all I ask on your part is to be sensitive and thorough.

Regards,
KRS

 

[arunshanker]

Sap says :and how further Einstein gonna loose in future..
are you sure? and who do you think will be eternal winner?

 

[kunjuppu]

sapr,

i waited till hari gave his response to you.

i have 'known' hari for a few years now. he is an extremely gifted young man whose bonafide and integrity, i can vouch.

he writes terrific poetry, and it is hoped, that he will share some of his humourous and satirical takes on current events here.

if not, you can go to karuthu, and savour the flavour.

thank you.

 

[hariharan1972]

Thanks for reposing faith in me, KRS Sir and Mr Kunjuppu.

 

[sapr333]

Dear Hari, I was about to respond with this yesterday itself (by the time I saw your post), but then got involved in yet another thread...

I think,after refering karuthu.com, some of your later responses to Arun, might have slipped out of my eyes..

Please do accept my sincere apologies.. . This is not just a word, I mean this.

I'm sure you will take it easy... Thanks in advance..


PS: Shri.Kujuppu, I have visited his Karuthu.com site, but with different handle name (insane), which he didnt clarify before, and from there, all these confusions happened.

 

[sapr333]

Sap says :and how further Einstein gonna loose in future..
are you sure? and who do you think will be eternal winner?

Im sure we both believe in evolution of human race and advancement of human brain and subsequently science advances..

Yes, the eternal winner will be...., rather, the highest winner will be man,ie, '"A doctor who does plastic surgery for God, an engineer who develops an advanced communication system, for him, to effectively communicate with humans"

Just a joke... Eternal winner would be again 'God'

 

[happyhindu]

Eternal winner would be again 'God'

zillion dollar question: what is "god"?

Sapr,

I'd like you to include teachings of christianity, and christian thot, while 'evaluating" religions (and also since Shri KRS-ji has given you the go ahead that you sought though i dunno for what it was sought).

Someday, if you are inclined to, perhaps you may start with the christian thot of christ as god, when christ said son of god. Please feel free to explain this, plus what you think is god and whatever more you feel like expressing. Your own thots are welcome.

 

[rrvvvr]

Dear all,

I think it is time for me, the thread-starter to interject at this stage, just to ensure that we don't drift from the central issue. All the thoughts put forth by you have been very informative for the uninformed persons like me. Infact some of the arguments have been complete bouncers which I couldn't quite comprehend. I think we have discussed everything from female infanticide to Michael Jackson under this thread of re-energising the Kanchi mutt. But regretfully in the last four months that this thread has survived, we have not reached anywhere close to our goal.

Yes, there was one idea which was widely debated- electing a new guru. But the arguments weighed so heavy upon the suggestion, that it had to wilt. I agree that the present Acharyas have been chosen by divine intervention and they are fully capable of executing their mandate. Kaliyugam is meant to spoil such divine deeds. We as the followers and supporters of the mutt have a role to play- to support the gurus to the extent that we can. More morally than financially. How do we do it?

I appeal to all your intellecttual capacities to think about it more constructively. I am sure you all can help this cause.

 

[RVR]

HH Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal has created his own problems. He should not have hob-nobbed with politicians irrespective of their party affliations. Unlike his predecessor, he started collecting money for the mutt and started discriminating devotees based on the affluence.

The same politicians who were very close to him before the incident have back stabbed him.

He has done great damage to the reputation of the mutt and it will take longer period to build the image.

Unless he and his junior vocates the mutt, there is no charm in visiting the mutt except the Brindavan of Paramacharya.

 

[arunshanker]

HH Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal has created his own problems. He should not have hob-nobbed with politicians irrespective of their party affliations. Unlike his predecessor, he started collecting money for the mutt and started discriminating devotees based on the affluence.

The same politicians who were very close to him before the incident have back stabbed him.

He has done great damage to the reputation of the mutt and it will take longer period to build the image.

Unless he and his junior vocates the mutt, there is no charm in visiting the mutt except the Brindavan of Paramacharya.

Actually I would not be so harsh on Sri Jayendra Saraswathi Swamigal as RV above
But there was an attitude problem with him

 

[rrvvvr]

Yes, most of us understand that he had some adjustment problem to his role. But now all that is a closed chapter. Now that he withdrawn from his previous activities, should we not stop the tirade against him and rally behind him instead? How do we start this movement? Any ideas?

 

[RVR]

I don't understand what do you mean as `Adjustment Problem' at Kanch Mutt. HH Sri Jayendra Saraswathi was not able to adjust with Paramacharya and left the mutt. Eventhough the issue was closed at that time, it created lot of controversies. Both the present Acharya and his Junior have spoiled the reputation of the mutt whcih was built over generations. It is my earnest request that both of them leave the mutt and leave it to the followers of Paramacharya so that every one of us can contribute to the rebuilding exercise.

HH Sri Jayandra Saraswathi used his clout with politicians in Delhi for the licencing of a deemed university. But the Institution is not being administered properly and has a poor image among public. Instead of spreading knowledge with standards, it has been made into an ordinary money making institution. Lot of people both in India and abroad with excellent knowledge and skill are interested in doing service to the Institution without any monetary benefit but due to mis-management and wrong attitude, no body is able to go near the University and do some good service.

It is high-time that both administration of the mutt as well as Institutions associated with it are handed over to able & capable people of high repute. Let the Swamijis withdraw from the administration and concentrate only on religeous activities.

Atleast now they should set a right example for others to follow

 

[prabhakaran123]

kanchi sankaramut

We are the ardent followers of kanchi kamakoti mutt. The arrest of Acharya was a blot on our system. Unforntunately even the various banches of the mutt, did not voicefeously openly came out in suport of swamigal. I am in Pune. I was sorry to state the persons incharge in Sankaramadam Pune did not take any bold step to condem the action. They remained in shell.

Many north ndians and VHP folowers took our morchas( procession) condeming the arest when our tamil brahmins remained at the back seat.

Do we think our brahminical duty is confined to wearing the panchakacham and angavastram, and shouting at the height of the voice "Hara hara sankara" when heart of hearat we in genral tamil brahmins do not raise up to the occattion to show our discontent.

It was unfortunate that even the srngeri achryal did not come out openly in support of the brahminical cause and condem the attack

HH jayendra sarswati swamigal did not confine himself to only mut rituals. He bodly preached the cause of Hindus as a whole. Inthe changing world our concept change very fast an accordingly hh ACHARYAL deviatead from the old concepts and tried to establish a revolutinary thinking with a sole motive of saving our hindu culture.
This was what Adya shankarar did when he went on a yatra from Kaladi to himalayas.

All eveolutionaries become controvercial, but that does not mean that they are to be projected as bad.

If we realy respect oour Hindu culture and also our brahminical culture we should think beyond panchkacham and angaastram and think that the mut has to be strengthened.

prabhakaran.

 

[rrvvvr]

I appreciate the anguish of Rvmani as also the concern of Prabhakaran. I completely agree with P123 that we as a community should have done more during the arrest of the Acharya. Our differences could have been resolved later. Most of us withdrew from the scene- that possibly is in our genes. To run away from troubles. As far the view of RV that Acharya had indulged in hobnobbing with politicians, we shd understand that it is needed to a certain extent in the contemporary world. Satya Sai, Ramdev, many other spiritual leaders maintain a good relationship with local politcal leaders for the sustainability of the mutt. Particularly in TN when majority of the parties are agaisnt brahmins and the mutt, the acharya had to turn to central leaders and who ever supported him. This kind of hate is not faced by Sringeri guru among the Karnataka politicians so his case is safe and different. Anyway, what is past is past. Now, taking for a moment that suggestion of RV is the only way ahead, is it possible to do this, I mean isolating the acharyas and taking over the administration of the mutt ? Taking over institutions is alright, but how do we take over the mutt? Any answers?