Muslims in India

[Haridasa Siva]

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I am not trying to be a Hindu fundamentalist nor anti-Islam. Personally, I have even bought a book titled, “Towards understanding Islam”. Yet, I felt like sharing my concern with the forum members. My discussion is about Muslims in India.

In India, whenever there is a report of smuggling, we find the name of a Muslim. The Burma Bazaar or Annai Sathya super market in Chennai and similar shopping areas at least in Tamil Nadu are majority owned by Muslims. It is a common knowledge that these shops sell smuggled goods.

Whenever there is an act of terror, we find the involvement of a Muslim. Be it the attack on Parliament, Mumbai bomb blast of 1993 or Mumbai terror attack of 26/11 or Coimbatore bomb blast, Muslim organisations and Muslim men are involved in terrorism in India.

Even when there is prostitution, the agents (euphemism for pimps) often belong to Muslim religion.In my opinion, India has been quite fair to Muslims.

The fact that India has the world’s highest Muslim population for a non-Muslim majority country is a proof that Muslims are comfortable living in India. Even if we look at our neighbourhood Muslims, they are friendly and we mix with each other very well. I have personal experience in this regard. But yet, the macro picture does not give a good impression about Muslims.

13% of Indian population is Muslims. I am afraid the crime involvement is much higher than that.
Why is it so?
Do Muslims feel unsafe in India?
Are they misguided by the elements across India border?
Does their religious affinity overrule their nationality?

I would appreciate the views of our members in this regard. I strongly urge our members to exercise caution to adhere to the norms of the forum.

 

[C RAVI]

I am not trying to be a Hindu fundamentalist nor anti-Islam. Personally, I have even bought a book titled, “Towards understanding Islam”. Yet, I felt like sharing my concern with the forum members. My discussion is about Muslims in India.

In India, whenever there is a report of smuggling, we find the name of a Muslim. The Burma Bazaar or Annai Sathya super market in Chennai and similar shopping areas at least in Tamil Nadu are majority owned by Muslims. It is a common knowledge that these shops sell smuggled goods.

Whenever there is an act of terror, we find the involvement of a Muslim. Be it the attack on Parliament, Mumbai bomb blast of 1993 or Mumbai terror attack of 26/11 or Coimbatore bomb blast, Muslim organisations and Muslim men are involved in terrorism in India.

Even when there is prostitution, the agents (euphemism for pimps) often belong to Muslim religion.In my opinion, India has been quite fair to Muslims.

The fact that India has the world’s highest Muslim population for a non-Muslim majority country is a proof that Muslims are comfortable living in India. Even if we look at our neighbourhood Muslims, they are friendly and we mix with each other very well. I have personal experience in this regard. But yet, the macro picture does not give a good impression about Muslims.

13% of Indian population is Muslims. I am afraid the crime involvement is much higher than that.
Why is it so?
Do Muslims feel unsafe in India?
Are they misguided by the elements across India border?
Does their religious affinity overrule their nationality?

I would appreciate the views of our members in this regard. I strongly urge our members to exercise caution to adhere to the norms of the forum.

Shri Haridasa,

Good observation and exposure of ground reality in India.

The opinion that I formed some years ago on the same thought was, It is nothing about the Muslim religion the community belongs to but just as many other folks from all other religion. In a vast country of India we find such folks from any religon. As such, this 13% of Muslim population in densely populated India can bring out thousands of criminally involved Muslims.

I have considered this with respect to the business of any sort that you have highlighted.


As for as terrorist activities are concerned, it is certainly the influence of elements across Indian border that all are not just only on political grounds but are related to religious inspirations as well (may be due to misunderstanding and or missuse of their religious philosophies), IMO.

As far as Mumbai underwold is concerned, a Muslim is a king (Dawood Ibrahim) who is the head of the organized crime sydicate "D-Company"in Mumbai. It is also said that he has the links with Al-Qaida's Osama Bin Laden. What I mean to say is, this underworld don is not only into unethical business transactions but has the inpiration of a Jihadi moment and has association with them for the very purpose.

Any other Indian Muslims who are inspired by D-Company's strategies of terrorism and that of other external elements are purly acting upon religious affinity AND / OR revenue generation.


As far as common Muslim folks in India are concerned, I don't think Muslims feel unsafe in India unless there is communal unrest between Muslims and Hindus.

Basically, Indian Goverance is such that, it is much a safer and comfortable Market Hub for folks from any religion to do any sort of illegal business.

When personal motives of any such sort starts over powering all the qualities of a human, the sense of Nationality becomes nonsense, doesn't matter the religion a human belongs to.

 

[Hari vj]

Muslims are united . They are a significant part of vote-bank politics that the ruling party plays. Unlike Brahmins , they vote for a single party and bring them into power . They canvas votes when they go for prayer in Masjid. But all these are not happening in our caste . . Whichever party that holds christianity , muslim votes will win the election . That is the reason why were dejected . .This is not to hurt anyone. this is what happening in the society . .

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Thank you, Ravi for your comments.

I doubt that personal motives are the reason for the wrong doings. There is involvement of a specific religion in criminal activities at frequent intervals. We don’t find reports of that much involvement of people of other minority religions. I therefore get a feeling that it is more to do with Muslims in India than with individual personal motives.

 

[Nara]

I have a bad feeling about this thread, primed for prejudices to come out in floods. There are about 200 million Muslims in India of various stripes. In many ways they are a beleaguered minority. To single them out is not good.

If you do want to criticize I suggest you cite solid statistics, not just I have seen this, it is my opinion, etc. This is a serious matter.

On the other hand, I would support a discussion of Islam as a religion, once again based on sold evidence, not just personal opinion.

thank you ...

 

[C RAVI]

I have a bad feeling about this thread, primed for prejudices to come out in floods. There are about 200 million Muslims in India of various stripes. In many ways they are a beleaguered minority. To single them out is not good.

If you do want to criticize I suggest you cite solid statistics, not just I have seen this, it is my opinion, etc. This is a serious matter.

On the other hand, I would support a discussion of Islam as a religion, once again based on sold evidence, not just personal opinion.

thank you ...

Shri Nara,

Your concerns and opinions are not at all wrong. It is highly diplomatic and very much civil considering the sentiments of one and all as a true humanist. I angree with this completely.

BUT, I would like you to consider the real situations in India where the fear has gone that bad that people tend to be scared to associate oneself with a Muslim as a stranger while travelling by train for instance. Many of us though don't want to have such fixation of suspect and fear with a stranger as Muslim, would be associating with a sense of alert so as to not to be in trouble.

You may not like to project these embarassing social issues of India in this forum unless it's been justified with facts and figure. Please beleive me that there are many such social issues among common folks in a society for which we can not find substantial web links.

We certainly feel sorry for good Muslim folks who all have to suffer some way due to their fellow men. Many Muslims in my social circle do openly discuss on this subject and feel for the indirect impacts they have to bear. Few Muslim men told me that, they take maximum efforts not to depend and seek some kind of assistance from other people, as a stranger, so as to not to make them feel burdened with suspect and fear. Few Muslims even have admitted that, they had to be extra careful with their fellow Muslim men who are strangers to them.

Shri Nara, you like it or not and believe it or not but that's the ground reality among all the people in India irrespective of their religion.

But, as you said, this discussion may trigger heated arguments and lead to messing up things among members here, though Shri Haridas have requested in his OP conclusion as- "I would appreciate the views of our members in this regard. I strongly urge our members to exercise caution to adhere to the norms of the forum. "


If you feel this request of Shri Haridasa can not withstand here, we can request Mr.Praveen to close this thread with due consent of Shri Haridasa and other members.

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Nara's fears are unjustified. He probably would not have made the same comments had the thread been started by a "reformist" or a "rationalist". I have presented the case in an objective manner with no prejudice. I have mentioned that we have good experience at a personal level with Muslims, in general. But there seems to be a problem at the macro level.

If the terror attacks are not evidences, what are?
If Dawood is not an example, who is?

I want the members to have a political approach to the thread and not to mix up sentiments or personal beliefs. I am no exception to that. Please do not cast aspersions on me.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Siva:

The way you have started this Thread is quite objectionable to me..

As Nara said, you need solid comparative data before you plunge into this discussion.

Religious minorities (Muslims, Christians & others) are very much abused in India.. We must bend over backwards to protect them and comfort them.

I am afraid this Thread will be used by the very many Hindu Supremacists who reside here to throw their venom at the Muslims and others.

Just a caution...

Disclosure: I am an Atheist, but I am in Pragmatic Solidarity with Poor and Voiceless in India and elsewhere...that's my Dharma!

 

[Nara]

.... Many Muslims in my social circle do openly discuss on this subject and feel for the indirect impacts they have to bear. Few Muslim men told me that, they take maximum efforts not to depend and seek some kind of assistance from other people, as a stranger, so as to not to make them feel burdened with suspect and fear. Few Muslims even have admitted that, they had to be extra careful with their fellow Muslim men who are strangers to them.

Ravi, If it is your experience that all the Muslims you know are also afraid of fellow Muslims, then don't you think all this is unjustifiable paranoia? I am not saying you can't discuss any of this -- even if I did, to state the obvious, I can't stop you. Besides, I for one tend to favor open discussion and never a priori censoring.

"I would appreciate the views of our members in this regard. I strongly urge our members to exercise caution to adhere to the norms of the forum."

The norms of the forum is to be civil, which many flout routinely. My request is to go one step beyond the norm and stick to verifiable facts only. Once again stating the obvious, anyone is free to reject my request.

If you feel this request of Shri Haridasa can not withstand here, we can request Mr.Praveen to close this thread with due consent of Shri Haridasa and other members.

You misunderstand me, that is not my wish.

Please do not cast aspersions on me.

Siva, please, you are over reacting, I did not think or say anything about your intentions, there was no casting of aspersions from my side. I felt a little apprehensive about the topic and I expressed it as sincerely as I could.

If the terror attacks are not evidences, what are?
If Dawood is not an example, who is?

This is what I am talking about, the terror attacks and Dawood are acts of some individuals, some crazy and some criminal. Based on this if we are to make all the 200+ millions of Muslims guilty until proven innocent of terrorism and criminality is not a wise thing to do.

Cheers!

 

[wrongan]

muslims in India.

We should remember that most or to say almost all muslims in India are converted from Hindus .So they and Hindus are brothers.I was taught in my young years that muslims specfically who does 'NAMAZ'will never be a bad man.In fact in British periods most Judges were either brahmins or Muslims.No one need to differ from this.But alas as Siva has mentioned that all muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are muslims.It is for the elders of that community or tb members who advocates them should come forward to bring the errants to the mainstream or volantarily hand them over to law enforcing agencies So that your and my neibour muslims are very good citizens of India .

 

[C RAVI]

Ravi, If it is your experience that all the Muslims you know are also afraid of fellow Muslims, then don't you think all this is unjustifiable paranoia? I am not saying you can't discuss any of this -- even if I did, to state the obvious, I can't stop you. Besides, I for one tend to favor open discussion and never a priori censoring.


This is what I am talking about, the terror attacks and Dawood are acts of some individuals, some crazy and some criminal. Based on this if we are to make all the 200+ millions of Muslims guilty until proven innocent of terrorism and criminality is not a wise thing to do.

Cheers!

Shri Nara,

We are not attempting to make all the 200+ Muslims guilty.

Both in OP and my subsequent posts, I could not see any such intentions and attempts.

Shri Haridasa and myself are highlighting the good experiences and goodliness of 1000s of Muslims living in India and feeling sorry for their pain of some sort. They can also see how they are impacted with as much as terrorists attacks in Indian and outside India and openly blame their fellow Muslims for their "Jihadi" concepts and violent actions.


This reality was very clearly highlighted in Bollywood Movies. One released in 2009 - "NEW YORK". It is about how a educated, innocent Muslim guy in America was suspected, arrested and humiliated subsequent to attacks on World Trade Centre. And how his life changes alltogether, leading him to death. The another movie was - "MY NAME IS KHAN".

When movies are produced and screened to public through out India and outside India on such ground reality, what can be the issue if this subject been discussed in a healthy and descent manner in this Forum?


When I was in Chennai, one of my Hindu client narrated me his experience. Himself and few others (Hindu and Muslims) were subjected to private security check and verification, helding them at airport for 2 hours, in the process of random check, just because they arrived JFK by Emirates Airlines.

To be more specific, this is not the plight of Good Muslims living in India alone. Through out the world people are sensitive about them and many many innocent Muslims are humiliated in Airports, especially in airports of America, UK and Australia.

Not only innocent Muslims suffer. But, some Sikhs too because of their beard and sometimes due their Turban too.


Whether its paranoia or phobia, the reality is the impact on innocent Muslims due Terrorism by Jihadis extensively and horridly in real.


This paranoi or phobia resulting from real incidents are experienced not only by Indian Muslims but by the Muslims of Pakistan, African Muslim Countries and other South Eastern/Far Eastern Asian Muslim counties as well.


I think, if we take this subject matter Internationally without restricting to Indian boundries, the members here can be rest assured that, it is not all about Hindu Supremacy, Humiliating Indian Menority group, Holding each and every Indian minority people guilty etc..etc...


What's your opinion on the above Shri Nara?

 

[Yamaka]

My two-cents on this topic: Muslims in India.

1. Except a handful of few (like the Khans in Bollywood, "Hajee Moosa", a prominent Clothier in Madurai and others) vast majority of Muslims are very poor; they all live under Rs. 4800 per person per month (the Federal poverty line set by the Tendulkar Commission, as per Motek Ahuwalia).

2. As my wife says repeatedly, all most ALL Muslims are recent converts from Hinduism in the last 150 years (except the offspring of foreign traders and invaders etc - all born in India, hence Indian citizens) because of the Oppressive Caste Hierarchy of Hinduism.

3. A few of the poor Muslims may be involved in selling contraband items in the Moor Market, several bazaars in Trichy or other big cities.

4. A few of the Muslims became agitated by the acts of Babri Masjid demolition by Hindu Supremacists, and resort to vengeance: Godhra train and the subsequent pogrom set by Modis of India.

I conclude that vast vast majority of Muslims are regular folks like any others in Hindu Majority.

The REAL culprit is POVERTY - in my estimate and that of Anu Rai nearly 900 million Indians are languishing under the Federal Poverty Line...

That's what we need to analyze about....

More later..

ps. One criticism about Muslims in India is "they form a formidable Voter Bank".. I say that's inevitable; a Voter Bank is nothing but voters of a community - here Muslims - band together supporting a Party or a candidate... what's wrong with it? They do it to tell the political parties. "Look here are our grievances; if you stand up for us, we will vote for you; if not, we go elsewhere!" That's useful meaningful politics... I don't see any problem. Why all this cry?

 

[amala]

Is it not true however that once upon a time Muslims in India were the richest? How tables turn eh for various reasons. I cannot speak much about Muslims in India per se but the little that I have met and know are the most wonderful of people.

However being an ethnic minority both in my country of birth and the country of current residence I do realise how extremely hard it is. More so for Muslims especially in the current climate and for the past 10 plus years i think its been trying. Having to constantly prove your allegiance or constantly being questioned about your motives and moves and constantly being asked about your faith and culture can be very irritating even for me as a Hindu. I can only imagine what they must go through anywhere. The Indian Muslims I know are very proud to be Indian and love both their faith and their country equally.

 

[Govinda]

My two-cents on this topic: Muslims in India.

2. As my wife says repeatedly, all most ALL Muslims are recent converts from Hinduism in the last 150 years (except the offspring of foreign traders and invaders etc - all born in India, hence Indian citizens) because of the Oppressive Caste Hierarchy of Hinduism.

Seems like you can lie to your best conscience, but at the expense of 2 cents.

Didn't you add your own ESTEEMED opinion "because of the Oppressive caste Hierarchy of Hinduism", to your wife's honest statement "all most all indian muslims are hindu converts".

Read about Akbar's, so about the Moghul barbarity, most hindu women were raped and had to carry the arabic gotras!!! Akbar: The Great?

 

[Haridasa Siva]

Ravi:

You have raised some of the issues I wanted to raise. Thank you. Good response.


Y:

You find a healthy topic “objectionable”. But you make statements that “the very many Hindu Supremacists who reside here to throw their venom at the Muslims and others”. . Isn’t that provocative? Isn’t that objectionable?

I just can’t understand one thing about the “rational” people of this forum. They come out with vengeance and aggression loaded with contempt. It provokes the “orthodoxy” to react and defend. When they defend, these “wise” people would say, “don’t shout; prove it”. Thank God. I don’t belong to a group which tickles a soft person and claim to be “rational”. The other issue is I have given enough instances and yet you are asking for “statistics”. Walk with me to the “super bazaars” and I would show who the traders there are and what they do.

Coming back to topic, do you sincerely believe Muslims indulge in the trade of contraband only out of poverty? Of all the people in this forum, you would know better as to what happens in Keezhakkarai and who are involved in the “trade” there. Even to accept that poverty “forces” the “innocent” to indulge in illegal activities, from when did that become an excuse to be illegal? Which law takes a lenient view on those cases?

My point is, there is a big number of Muslims in India and at an individual level they are friendly and good. But why is it that they are involved in crime, disproportionate to their population? I am not holding them guilty. I only want a debate as to why most of the criminal activities have the involvement of Muslims.

Talking of "development" of Muslims, we have "Wakf Board", "Minority commission", etc. to "take care" of them.

Nara:

So, Dawood Ibrahim is an individual? Chotta Shakeel is an individual? Afsan Guru is an individual? Madhani (Coimbatore blast) is an individual? But the Babri Majsid demolishers are “supermacist Hindus” and not just “group of individuals”?
Come on.

Let us not make this debate as Hindu v/s Muslims. The purpose of my thread is just about Muslims. I have raised specific questions.

 

[Yamaka]

Siva: Your post # 15.

Can you give me "the statistics" or your "observations" on per 100,000 Muslims how many are involved in Illegal Activities?

Can you compare it to the 100,000 Hindus?

I still don't know your real motivation in talking about this topic the way you started it off, anyway I want to believe that you are not a Hindu Supremacist ...because you say so!

Wait & watch.

 

[Nara]

....But alas as Siva has mentioned that all muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are muslims..

Sir, this is what I was talking about, do you have any evidence to show this is so, that all terrorists are Muslims? I know you can't because this is simply not true. I hope you will remove this statement from the post, and when you do I will also remove this post.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear ALL:

Here is my assertion on this issue:

1. There is NO difference in the crime rate between Hindu majority and the Muslim minority in India.

Any claim otherwise needs to be supported by a reliable comparative data... not "some feelings" and faulty "observations".

2. If crime rate is higher in India than other countries, then I attribute it to the pervasive poverty there.

I hope Praveen reads the posts here and judge whether to continue with this Thread.

For, this has the flavor of "Love Jihadi" Thread to me.

Wait & watch.

 

[amala]

But alas as Siva has mentioned that all muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are muslims.

There are Basque/ETA separatists of Spain, the IRA and Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka. And they aren't muslims either.

 

[Nara]

...Let us not make this debate as Hindu v/s Muslims. The purpose of my thread is just about Muslims. I have raised specific questions.

Siva, let us be clear, you are the first one to bring in Hindu v. Muslim, and then you glibly say, "Let us not make this debate as Hindu v/s Muslims."

I am nobody to tell you what you can or cannot discuss. All I want to do is express my concern with the title of this thread combined with the premise you have defined that is demonstrably misleading and arguably false -- it is nothing less than first convicting a beleaguered minority and then inviting like-minded people to provide the evidence.

Once again, my concern is this thread will become an avenue for all sorts of hateful accusations with no solid evidence to back them up.

Siva, please take a moment to reflect on what you are trying to achieve with this thread, and then do what you want to do, that is all I request.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

1. " Coming back to topic, do you sincerely believe Muslims indulge in the trade of contraband only out of poverty? Of all the people in this forum, you would know better as to what happens in Keezhakkarai and who are involved in the “trade” there. Even to accept that poverty “forces” the “innocent” to indulge in illegal activities, from when did that become an excuse to be illegal? Which law takes a lenient view on those cases? Siva in post 15.

I knew Keezhakkarai inside out...we are about 20 miles apart as the crow flies...

Most people in Keezha were law abiding people.. some involved in "trading contraband and "hundial" business". The simple fact was they were hired by the Big Bosses by a dominant business community in TN - to which P. Chidambaram belongs to in Karaikudi!!!

Will you blame the Chettiars - the Big Bosses - or the Muslims here?

2. But why is it that they are involved in crime, disproportionate to their population? I am not holding them guilty. I only want a debate as to why most of the criminal activities have the involvement of Muslims. Siva in post 15.

This is totally unfounded... a malicious propaganda. No debate is warranted on a bogus assumption.
Unless, you are a Religious Supremacist.

More later.

 

[Nara]

We are not attempting to make all the 200+ Muslims guilty.

Ravi, please think about it, what you intend is for you to know, nobody else. Concrete actions and its results is what others can see. When you look upon a Muslim unknown to you with suspicion you are indeed seeing 200+ millions of Muslims as guilty, not attempting to, but already pronounced them guilty in your own mind.

Both in OP and my subsequent posts, I could not see any such intentions and attempts.

I beg to differ, I reread both the OP and your response. Let me give just a sample.

• Even when there is prostitution, the agents (euphemism for pimps) often belong to Muslim religion.
  
• 13% of Indian population is Muslims. I am afraid the crime involvement is much higher than that.
  
• As such, this 13% of Muslim population in densely populated India can bring out thousands of criminally involved Muslims.
  
• There is involvement of a specific religion in criminal activities at frequent intervals.
  

All these are unsubstantiated accusations, can you provide any verifiable statistics for these? I am not going to speculate intentions, but these kinds of statements can only provoke extreme reactions from both sides.

When I was in Chennai, one of my Hindu client narrated me his experience. Himself and few others (Hindu and Muslims) were subjected to private security check and verification, helding them at airport for 2 hours, in the process of random check, just because they arrived JFK by Emirates Airlines.

Ravi, many years ago I was waiting at a red light in a Houston street, it was the height of Iran hostage crisis. A car stopped next to me drew my attention by honking and the driver showed me a bullet, as though I was an Iranian and he was going to kill me.

It is well known what kind of treatment Kamal Hasan got at JFK. There are countless more untold stories like this because some thought a guy with a beard or a funny sounding name must prove himself innocent to be believed as just anther bloke.

This is what I am talking about. For the driver I came across in the Houston street I was a terrorist, just the same way you see a Muslim or the Muslims you call "good" see another Muslim.

When you see an entire group with suspicion, you end up with making them all guilty until proven innocent.

To be more specific, this is not the plight of Good Muslims living in India alone.

First, I think your characterization "Good Muslim" is quite condescending. Who is a Good Muslim, one who can pass a battery of litmus tests conducted by Hindutva brigade? Who are Good Hindus and Bad Hindus, pray tell?

Not only innocent Muslims suffer. But, some Sikhs too because of their beard and sometimes due their Turban too.

Yes of course, a Sikh in Arizona was killed soon after 9/11, and the perpetrator was arrested, prosecuted, convicted and sentenced. What can you say about all the Sikhs who were killed after the assassination of Indira Gandhi. Have you read the accounts of Sikh families in New Delhi massacred, and also the stories about Sikhs saved by Hindus and Muslims?

How Muslims are hounded out in the U.S. is very well known to me and I condemn it with the last fiber in my body. What you guys are doing is not very different from how the mainstream media and the establishment are treating Muslims here. This is what I reject and am pleading you to stop.

I think, if we take this subject matter Internationally without restricting to Indian boundries, the members here can be rest assured that, it is not all about Hindu Supremacy, Humiliating Indian Menority group, Holding each and every Indian minority people guilty etc..etc...

You are right about this, Muslims are unfairly targeted not just in India, but the world over. There are sane voices the world over who object to this. Which of the two voices will win over will determine how fair or unfair a humanity we are.

Being a professor I would like to give you a homework, take a look at the terrorist incidents over the last 10 years and see how many were committed by Muslims, I bet you will be surprised. All of this is available just a few key strokes away in google.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

2. But why is it that they are involved in crime, disproportionate to their population? I am not holding them guilty. I only want a debate as to why most of the criminal activities have the involvement of Muslims. Siva in post 15.....

This is totally unfounded... a malicious propaganda. No debate is warranted on a bogus assumption. Unless, you are a Religious Supremacist.
.

I fully endorse Y's outrage, the accusation is completely baseless, made out of plain cloth. I challenge those who make this ridiculous accusation to put up or be suspected as total bigots.

Cheers!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Having to constantly prove your allegiance or constantly being questioned about your motives and moves and constantly being asked about your faith and culture can be very irritating even for me as a Hindu. I can only imagine what they must go through anywhere. The Indian Muslims I know are very proud to be Indian and love both their faith and their country equally.

For a moment I thought this passage is about brahmins living in TN or even about brahmin members of this forum!

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Ravi:

You have raised some of the issues I wanted to raise. Thank you. Good response.


Y:

You find a healthy topic “objectionable”. But you make statements that “the very many Hindu Supremacists who reside here to throw their venom at the Muslims and others”. . Isn’t that provocative? Isn’t that objectionable?

I just can’t understand one thing about the “rational” people of this forum. They come out with vengeance and aggression loaded with contempt. It provokes the “orthodoxy” to react and defend. When they defend, these “wise” people would say, “don’t shout; prove it”. Thank God. I don’t belong to a group which tickles a soft person and claim to be “rational”. The other issue is I have given enough instances and yet you are asking for “statistics”. Walk with me to the “super bazaars” and I would show who the traders there are and what they do.

Coming back to topic, do you sincerely believe Muslims indulge in the trade of contraband only out of poverty? Of all the people in this forum, you would know better as to what happens in Keezhakkarai and who are involved in the “trade” there. Even to accept that poverty “forces” the “innocent” to indulge in illegal activities, from when did that become an excuse to be illegal? Which law takes a lenient view on those cases?

My point is, there is a big number of Muslims in India and at an individual level they are friendly and good. But why is it that they are involved in crime, disproportionate to their population? I am not holding them guilty. I only want a debate as to why most of the criminal activities have the involvement of Muslims.

Talking of "development" of Muslims, we have "Wakf Board", "Minority commission", etc. to "take care" of them.

Nara:

So, Dawood Ibrahim is an individual? Chotta Shakeel is an individual? Afsan Guru is an individual? Madhani (Coimbatore blast) is an individual? But the Babri Majsid demolishers are “supermacist Hindus” and not just “group of individuals”?
Come on.

Let us not make this debate as Hindu v/s Muslims. The purpose of my thread is just about Muslims. I have raised specific questions.

Sharp observations and a well written post!

While I certainly agree with some of the sentiments expressed here in support of muslims, the duplicity of some members is hard to miss.

According to them, as long as discussions are about hindus and particularly brahmins, generalization and wholesale condemnation are okay. But their hearts start bleeding when it comes to muslims!

They are in overdrive fearing this thread will be misused to generate ill-feeling against muslims. Their fears perhaps are not totally unfounded. But they will feign ignorance if it is pointed out that this entire forum is being abused by some to put down brahmins. They do not realize people can easily see through their hypocrisy - yet they think others are clueless!