Maya

[sravna]

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Sravna,

Maya is the power of Brahman isnt it?

I was reading Narayaneeyam the other day and in its commentary was a nice poetic description of the Loving Glance of Brahman on Maya from the Vedas
tadaikshta, bahusyAm prajAyeya
translating poetically(not literal meaning) to mean Only when Looked at by Brahman,Maya gets agitated.

I guess all we know is Maya is the Power of Brahman From Brahman,For Brahman and By Brahman.(Sounds very democracy like in description LOL!!)

Dear Renuka,

We cannot talk of nirguna brahman and maya together. In the case of saguna brahman, the effect of maya is nil and it is in varying degrees in the case of jivas. In the case of saguna brahman we can say that his body is in space time and his mind/soul is beyond space time. No attribute can affect something that is beyond space time.

So is maya an attribute of saguna brahman ? Saguna brahman's mind/soul does not have any attribute as it is beyond space time. Therefore maya cannot be an attribute of saguna brahman too. The conclusion is maya is saguna brahman himself and the physical world and the jivas as a projection is the effect of maya.

IMO maya used in any other import would be obfuscating.

 

[renuka]

Ok let me add what I read from the book:

Commentary of Dasakam 5 from Narayaneeyam:

Thus Maya had totally dissolved into You,O Lord during the last Maha Pralaya.
She was as good as a non-existent entity.Therefore,there were no gross or subtle substances.
There were no births,death or the cycles thereof, constituting Samsara.
There was no liberation either.
As there was no Sun,Moon or stars, neither day nor night existed.
But then,what did exist even during that period?
O Lord! You alone existed! Even your altered states in the form of the Trinity Brahma,Vishnu and Rudra, created by Maya,did not exists.
You alone pervaded everywhere as Supreme Bliss-Consciousness.
In this matter the Vedas which are Your own pronouncement are the only authority.

 

[renuka]

Just to add:

Literal meaning of Maya is Ma(not) and Ya(that)..so it means Not That.
So I guess we can never ever know even what Maya is.

 

[sravna]

Just to add:

Literal meaning of Maya is Ma(not) and Ya(that)..so it means Not That.
So I guess we can never ever know even what Maya is.

Maya has to be one among the realities just as nirguna brahman is one among the realities though we cannot comprehend that reality. If maya cannot be the power or attribute of brahman, which previously you said it was , and it cannot be nirguna brahman, what else can it be? Comprehending it may not be possible but not saying something about it? For example we know brahman is not this , not that because nothing in reality we know and comprehend is as consummate as nirguna brahman. But we can say certain things about nirguna brahman such as it is the absolute reality and it is sat-chit-ananda etc., can't we?

 

[renuka]

Maya has to be one among the realities just as nirguna brahman is one among the realities though we cannot comprehend that reality. If maya cannot be the power or attribute of brahman, which previously you said it was , and it cannot be nirguna brahman, what else can it be? Comprehending it may not be possible but not saying something about it? For example we know brahman is not this , not that because nothing in reality we know and comprehend is as consummate as nirguna brahman. But we can say certain things about nirguna brahman such as it is the absolute reality and it is sat-chit-ananda etc., can't we?

Sravna..I am confused now.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Renuka,

I am of the same opinion from the very beginning of this thread that MAYA is the power of Brahman to serve the very purpose of a systematic creation. To keep existing the things bound by time and space, MAYA forms the basis. This phenomena is at the will and wish of the Brahman and hence has very limited effect of MAYA on Saguna Brahman's incarnations in this physical world and absolute influence over other jivaatmas. In all, Maya is the power tool of the Brahman and hence does not/can not influence Brahman himself.

You are giving references of vedic text, slokas etc to substantiate the claim that Maya is the power of Brahman. Where as Shri Sravna is trying his best to view Maya as saguna brahman himself and thus is the existence of this physical world as projection of the saguna brahman in the form of tricky Maya.

Shri Sravna,

Your POV. too seem to be convincing to me

But, my doubt is, if Maya is saguna brahman himself then why there is no reference to worship of MAYA form to please her and get relieved from her tricks?

Do you mean to say that, since MAYA is nothing but the projection of Saguna Brahman ,keeping this physical world existing, worshiping Saguna Brahman with all spirituality would help jeevaatmans to gradually get relieved from the tricks of MAYA?

On the above basis can we say that, when a soul realizes the absolute bliss overcoming MAYA in Toto, through highest spirituality, it finds itself totally relieved from MAYA and recognizes itself equal to Saguna Brahman?

 

[sarma-61]

But, my doubt is, if Maya is saguna brahman himself then why there is no reference to worship of MAYA form to please her and get relieved from her tricks?

All the discussions about mAyA here are erroneous and misleading. They serve only some members' thirst to flaunt their half-baked wisdom.

Have you studied the composition மாயே த்வம் யாஹி மாம் பாதிதும் கா ஹி... by Muthuswamy Deekshitar? மதுரை மணி’s rendering is well-known.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

I am of the same opinion from the very beginning of this thread that MAYA is the power of Brahman to serve the very purpose of a systematic creation. To keep existing the things bound by time and space, MAYA forms the basis. This phenomena is at the will and wish of the Brahman and hence has very limited effect of MAYA on Saguna Brahman's incarnations in this physical world and absolute influence over other jivaatmas. In all, Maya is the power tool of the Brahman and hence does not/can not influence Brahman himself.

You are giving references of vedic text, slokas etc to substantiate the claim that Maya is the power of Brahman. Where as Shri Sravna is trying his best to view Maya as saguna brahman himself and thus is the existence of this physical world as projection of the saguna brahman in the form of tricky Maya.

Shri Sravna,

Your POV. too seem to be convincing to me

But, my doubt is, if Maya is saguna brahman himself then why there is no reference to worship of MAYA form to please her and get relieved from her tricks?

Do you mean to say that, since MAYA is nothing but the projection of Saguna Brahman ,keeping this physical world existing, worshiping Saguna Brahman with all spirituality would help jeevaatmans to gradually get relieved from the tricks of MAYA?

On the above basis can we say that, when a soul realizes the absolute bliss overcoming MAYA in Toto, through highest spirituality, it finds itself totally relieved from MAYA and recognizes itself equal to Saguna Brahman?

Dear Ravi and Renuka,

My poiint is we need to be clear about the use of terminologies. One time we cannot say that maya is the power of brahman and at another that maya is the cause of the phsyical world and so on. Because the subject is extremely nuanced, a slight misunderstanding can cause a lot of confusion.

So let us go step by step. Let us assume maya is the power of brahman. What brahman? Is it nirguna brahman or saguna brahman? Let us start with the concept of nirguna brahman. Immediately we can reject this because the concept of nirguna brahman as a causative agent is not supported in the vedas. So maya as the power of nirguna brahman causing the physical world is untenable,

Is it ok up to this point?

 

[sravna]

All the discussions about mAyA here are erroneous and misleading. They serve only some members' thirst to flaunt their half-baked wisdom.

Have you studied the composition மாயே த்வம் யாஹி மாம் பாதிதும் காஹி... by ஸதாசிவ ப்ரஹ்மேந்த்ராள்? மதுரை மணி’s rendering is well-known.

If you are aware of any authoratative views on the subject you are welcome to share it here.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi and Renuka,

My poiint is we need to be clear about the use of terminologies. One time we cannot say that maya is the power of brahman and at another that maya is the cause of the phsyical world and so on. Because the subject is extremely nuanced, a slight misunderstanding can cause a lot of confusion.

So let us go step by step. Let us assume maya is the power of brahman. What brahman? Is it nirguna brahman or saguna brahman? Let us start with the concept of nirguna brahman. Immediately we can reject this because the concept of nirguna brahman as a causative agent is not supported in the vedas. So maya as the power of nirguna brahman causing the physical world is untenable,

Is it ok up to this point?

Yeah, it is!!!!

 

[C RAVI]

All the discussions about mAyA here are erroneous and misleading. They serve only some members' thirst to flaunt their half-baked wisdom.

Shri sarma-61.

I think you are not aware that this "General discussion Forum" is to exchange and share personal views of members among themselves. Here there is nothing like flaunting one's 1/4th baked, 1/2 baked, 3/4 baked or full baked wisdom. In this thread = "MAYA", we are sharing our pov's and understandings and we find them all much interesting.

I think, you have utter contempt for such exchange of ideas in an informal way. It would be nice if you showcase your Absolute Wisdom on MAYA with an open mind to honor any counter arguments to that of yours. This will certainly add value to this thread and all of us can learn more about WHAT IS MAYA?

 

[sravna]

Now since we concluded that maya cannot be nirguna brahman or its power in causing the physical world, we come to the concept of saguna brahman.

Can we now say maya is the power of saguna brahman?

Now we have to understand the important distinction between nirguna brahman and saguna brahman. Nirguna brahman is pure spiritual consciousness whereas saguna brahman is not spiritual consciousness alone but also the consciousness of the lower reality. Jivas which have graduated to mental level are in a sense like saguna brahman in that they have dual consciousness, both spiritual/mental and physical.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sarmaji,

None of us are very learned..some of us are still very raw and uncooked.
So please kindly help us by setting the kitchen right for us.
Please cut up all our doubts and toss it into a pan..add the right spices and serve it hot and spicy for all of us and satisfy our hunger and thirst for knowledge.

But since its supposed to be Karmanyevadhikaraste ma Phaleshu kadacana so dont expect any tips from us.

 

[renuka]

Now since we concluded that maya cannot be nirguna brahman or its power in causing the physical world, we come to the concept of saguna brahman.

Can we now say maya is the power of saguna brahman?

Sravna,

Saguna Brahman came about becos of the Reflection of Sattvic nature in the mirror of Maya.
Maya is the progenitor of Saguna Brahman(Ishvara),Jeeva and the Objective World.

 

[C RAVI]

Now since we concluded that maya cannot be nirguna brahman or its power in causing the physical world, we come to the concept of saguna brahman.

Can we now say maya is the power of saguna brahman?

Now we have to understand the important distinction between nirguna brahman and saguna brahman. Nirguna brahman is pure spiritual consciousness whereas saguna brahman is not spiritual consciousness alone but also the consciousness of the lower reality. Jivas which have graduated to mental level are in a sense like saguna brahman in that they have dual consciousness, both spiritual/mental and physical.

Yes!!! This is what I could grasp, understand and accept as the right thing after your repeated hard attempt to put your POV across. As such, was my post #106, addressing you and Renuka.

Now what's the next level of introspection, Shri Sravna? Or is it over with the concluded assumption that MAYA is the power of Saguna Brahman?

 

[sravna]

Maya is in some way connected to the lower reality. Thus as we saw in the previous post saguna brahman being connected with lower reality has a connection with maya. We have the following options for maya :

1. It is the power of saguna brahman that is responsible for the lower reality
2. It is the lower reality caused by saguna brahman
3. It is saguna brahman

We reject the idea that it can be an independent reality from brahman as maya is said to be timeless and that brahman is the only ultimate reality.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Though the cloud covers the sun, the sun always shines. I am only a primary section student
as far as knowledge in Veda is concerned. Only of late, I started going through various books.
Yet, I have lot of interests in going through this site but I do not have adequate knowledge to
offer my views. As far as the subject of Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman, it has an extended
area of definitions from different angles. What I understand is Nirguna Brahman is nothing different
from Supreme Power (without personal attributes) and Saguna Brahman (with attributes).
Sathyam jananm anantam brahman - Brahman is the native of truth, knowledge and infinity.
I find in Hindu Scriptures that the Brahman (impersonal God) is beyond description and can be
understood only through direct spiritual experience. It is described as Brahman is knowledge.
Aham brahmasmi. In some places Saguna Brahman is referred to Goddesses viz. Durga, Kali
etc. It is an area where an enlightenment is absolutely required.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[renuka]

Maya is in some way connected to the lower reality. Thus as we saw in the previous post saguna brahman being connected with lower reality has a connection with maya. We have the following options for maya :

1. It is the power of saguna brahman that is responsible for the lower reality
2. It is the lower reality caused by saguna brahman
3. It is saguna brahman

We reject the idea that it can be an independent reality from brahman as maya is said to be timeless and that brahman is the only ultimate reality.

Sravna..let me give my answers:

1)Maya is not the power of Saguna Brahman(Ishvara) cos Saguna Brahman got formed due to the Sattvic Reflection in the Mirror of Maya.
Thats shows that Maya existed before Saguna Brahman came into being.
However even though Maya is the progenitor for Saguna Brahman(Ishvara)too but Saguna Brahman(Ishvara) controls Maya(Geeta explains this well)

2)Saguna Brahman did not cause Maya.

3)Maya is NOT Saguna Brahman.

 

[sravna]

Sravna..let me give my answers:

1)Maya is not the power of Saguna Brahman(Ishvara) cos Saguna Brahman got formed due to the Sattvic Reflection in the Mirror of Maya.
Thats shows that Maya existed before Saguna Brahman came into being.

Here lies the tormenting problem. If saguna brahman came into being later, that leaves us with only nirguna brahman. How can you relate the two?

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Should we assume Maya as an illusion? Can we say it is the divine magical power of the Supreme Lord?


Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[ozone]

Here lies the tormenting problem. If saguna brahman came into being later, that leaves us with only nirguna brahman.

that leaves us with only nirguna brahman and Maya

How can you relate the two?

As sri sharma-61 sir mentioned a while back - by a cataract operation

 

[sravna]

Coming to Renuka's point that maya is the progenitor of saguna brahman, I think just as universe is unendingly created and dissolved, the concept of saguna brahman is related to eternity though the forms of saguna brahman may dissolve into nirguna brahman at the dissolution of the universe. What do you say Renuka?

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

माया की चक्कर में फिर आ गए भाई साहब??

 

[renuka]

Here lies the tormenting problem. If saguna brahman came into being later, that leaves us with only nirguna brahman. How can you relate the two?

Ok so now we know there is only One...Ekam Eva Advaitam Brahman.
So why see two?
Maya is the Power of Brahman.
It lies latent in Brahman.
Doesnt everthing finally go back to Brahman?

Ok let me type this from the Subaalopanishad:

It describes Dissolution.
I am going in reverse gear direction so that we can understand how things came about.

Among the five elements namely Earth,Water,Fire,Air and Ether.Earth dissolves in Water,Water gets absorbed by Heat(Fire),Fire gets absorbed by Air and Air by Ether(Akasa)

Akasa melts in Cosmic Power(Indriyas) and the Cosmic Power in Tanmantras(subtle essence) which is their natural cause.

Tanmantras melt in Cosmic Ego(Ahamkara),The Cosmic Ego in the Great Principle of Cosmic Intelligence(Mahat-Tattvam) and the Great Principle melts in Root Matter(Mula Prakirti) which is Maya.

Finally the the Root Matter(Mula Prakirti/Maya) melts into the eternal,attributless Brahman.

 

[renuka]

माया की चक्कर में फिर आ गए भाई साहब??

yup I guess its:फिर तेरी कहानी याद आई for भाई साहब