Intercaste marriages/Reasons

[krish44]

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Not many realise how difficult it is for those from other castes and religion to be accepted fully in brahmin families.

the brahmin customs and values -no brahmin would like a new entrant into the family thru marriage to question any custom or values.

brahmins are exclusive and want total compliance and reject those who do not come to their expectations ,

being judgemental, brahmins more often reject than accept an outsider or an intruder.

it is difficult to be married to a brahmin unless one is also a brahmin.

when brahmins girls get married into other castes , they often have a feeling of superiority and would like to call the shots in the NB or other religion families.

How often one sees children of intercaste with one brahmin parent want wanting only brahmin DIL/SIL ?

Invariably they find it difficult to find a brahmin accepting intercaste with one brahmin parent . however , the intercaste kids find match in other NB castes pretty easily.

brahmins believe firmly in caste heirarchy and superiority . They would not relish those with other caste tags or religion to damage their families.

this is the harsh truth.

Iin most brahmins families the younger generation is giving the go by to caste and religion in favour of education ,job , foreign dreams , good looks etc and caste for them

is only a minor issue.

 

[Raji Ram]

Caste is a minor issue for youngsters and if the parents happen to be orthodox, they are shattered!

Brahmin customs are rather difficult to follow and hence the I C and I R wedding become inevitable.

Even among brahmins, the compatibility in 'values' play an important role to make the families friendly.

 

[krish44]

In last generation, IC /IR couples would end up with jaadi brashtam and made outcastes .

these days orthodox parents are made outcastes by IR/IC couples and they have to fight for a living without economic support from children

 

[KRN]

I didnt say NBs are taking up Brahmin values. Thats why I said its a Big If. Still - I think - as a community thats where our focus should be. There are a lot of good customs amongst us TBs. Nowadays when an ICM happens the influence of a community or even the parents is very less. But wherever the community can exert any influence at all - the focus should be NOT to resist the marriage altogether but to see whether the newcomer can be integrated within our community and our good values / practices can be instilled. The community needs to step in to ensure that the interests of the community are maintained for the larger good. If the newcomer brings a new custom thats good - the same can be accepted firstly within that family and later within the local community. Implementing this is difficult but the focus should be on this. This is the pragmatic solution as I see it. Neither ostracising the couple - which anyway does not work - Nor giving up on our customs and say *its kalikaalam*!!

 

[krish44]

KRNji
Excellent post.
Integration of a teenager of a different caste/religion into the family requires a change in mindset of brahmin parents.

we are not prepared to employ even a non brahmin cook in our household to cook for senior citizen parents

whole hearted acceptance by parents and instilling our values and customs appears to be a far fetched dream.

it might at best be mutual tolerance keeping a distance with a few minimal transactions to enable living together if possible or under different roofs nearby

 

[KRN]

Dear Raji Ram

You said :
“Brahmin customs are rather difficult to follow and hence the I C and I R wedding become inevitable.“

I dont agree at all. It is not due to the difficulty in following Brahmin customs that ICMs happen. The reasons many and varied. I have interacted with NB communities who have much difficult and time consuming customs. We Bs are very flexible that way as there is no compulsion on anyone. The fun is I hear this excuse more often from people who dont even do Avani Avittam.

 

[KRN]

Dear krish44 Sir
You are right. A change from the orthodox mindset is needed from some Sr. Citizens. The Community (Brahmana sabha etc) needs to involve and effect this change. At the same time I think a change in the mindset is needed from the present generation if they have a *dont care if the community and customs are given a go by* attitude. Today the Constitution offers every individual total independence from community / parental restrictions. That means added responsibility of ensuring that our age old customs and practices (which are still highly effective in giving health￾0È3 peace￾0È3 happiness) are maintained. So better awareness is needed on both sides.

 

[krish44]

Dear KRNsir
I appreciate what you say.

Who is getting maximum affected by the retention of orthodox mindset . definitely the parent generation.Only they need to reach out to the next generation and cater to

their needs and aspiration. Youngsters will always reciprocate if parents have good will and reach out. If anything is forced on them, they will feel free to go their own

way as a reaction and make their own choices and life based on their own sweet will and requirements. parents only have to blame themselves for the misery they are

undergoing due to their children caring too hoots for their customs and sampradayams which are anyway not in tune with needs of modern living

 

[KRN]

Dear krish44 Sir
I think both generations need each other. The old generation has a lot to teach the younger one. Many of our sampradayams - if properly understood - can be seen to enhance the quality of modern living. (To give a small example I have benefited tremendously from Gayatri japam. It gives great mental sharpness and accurate memory of things learnt.... long afterwards.) The sad thing is most of the older gen have also forgotten or given up the good things in our culture. I agree it is not an orthodox mindset that we need. But throwing everything away is not the solution either.

 

[Raji Ram]

I didnt say NBs are taking up Brahmin values. Thats why I said its a Big If. Still - I think - as a community thats where our focus should be. There are a lot of good customs amongst us TBs. Nowadays when an ICM happens the influence of a community or even the parents is very less. But wherever the community can exert any influence at all - the focus should be NOT to resist the marriage altogether but to see whether the newcomer can be integrated within our community and our good values / practices can be instilled. The community needs to step in to ensure that the interests of the community are maintained for the larger good. If the newcomer brings a new custom thats good - the same can be accepted firstly within that family and later within the local community. Implementing this is difficult but the focus should be on this. This is the pragmatic solution as I see it. Neither ostracising the couple - which anyway does not work - Nor giving up on our customs and say *its kalikaalam*!!

We find more and more brahmins NOT following the customs, Sir. Those who follow are sometimes branded as 'madi sanji'

by the broadminded ones! It is the real plight. Some tambram boys settled abroad, marry girls from other countries because
they are vegetarians /vegans. Their parents also say that those girls are much better than the meat-eating brahmin girls! :decision:

But can those girls ever become brahmins, though they wear 'madisAr' during their wedding? :noidea:

 

[KRN]

Dear krish44 Sir
I think both generations need each other. The old generation has a lot to teach the younger one. Many of our sampradayams - if properly understood - can be seen to enhance the quality of modern living. (To give a small example I have benefited tremendously from Gayatri japam. It gives great mental sharpness and accurate memory of things learnt.... long afterwards.) The sad thing is most ppl of the older gen themselves have forgotten or given up the good things in our culture. I agree it is not an orthodox mindset that we need. But throwing everything away is not the solution either.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Raji Ram

You said :
“Brahmin customs are rather difficult to follow and hence the I C and I R wedding become inevitable.“

I dont agree at all. It is not due to the difficulty in following Brahmin customs that ICMs happen. The reasons many and varied. I have interacted with NB communities who have much difficult and time consuming customs. We Bs are very flexible that way as there is no compulsion on anyone. The fun is I hear this excuse more often from people who dont even do Avani Avittam.

Dear Sir,

The highlighter portion is THE main point. Hence brahmins end up not following the customs that should be followed.

Now, the million $ Q:

Can a man / woman become a brahmin by getting married to a brahmin? May be, high time our Gurus think of this issue.

 

[psnarasimhan]

KRNji
Excellent post.
Integration of a teenager of a different caste/religion into the family requires a change in mindset of brahmin parents.

we are not prepared to employ even a non brahmin cook in our household to cook for senior citizen parents

whole hearted acceptance by parents and instilling our values and customs appears to be a far fetched dream.

it might at best be mutual tolerance keeping a distance with a few minimal transactions to enable living together if possible or under different roofs nearby

So, all of you want the entire brahmin families must go in for IC AND IP marriages and also convert themselves as NV fellows. Why should not you gentlemen and ladies show the way to others by getting your marriageble wards married to socalled intelligent NBS, converted ST and SC , muslims etc., and publicly releasing the invitation cards mentioning boldly the marriage is an IC or IP without first approching any brahmin family for an alliance for your wards. Doyou all have the guts to do that before preaching to others. You could also inform your religious heads, if any, and get their blssings to mention in the invitation. GOD BLESS YOU ALL.:happy: :happy:

 

[krish44]

After analysing and studying what traditional brahmins want , the best matches for boys in india can be got from girls brought up in rural areas observing old customs mostly and who have

studied in engg/technology/ medical fields in cities and got employed in metros. they present the best amalgam of traditional upbringing and modern

education and workplace in metros.They understand and fit best into families.

similarly children of intercastes with one brahmin parent can find matches only in NB/other religions. Brahmins are unable to reabsorb them in their families.It is a fact

of life . These intercaste kids will face further problems in coping with brahmin community.

 

[Raji Ram]

So, all of you want the entire brahmin families must go in for IC AND IP marriages and also convert themselves as NV fellows. Why should not you gentlemen and ladies show the way to others by getting your marriageble wards married to socalled intelligent NBS, converted ST and SC , muslims etc., and publicly releasing the invitation cards mentioning boldly the marriage is an IC or IP without first approching any brahmin family for an alliance for your wards. Doyou all have the guts to do that before preaching to others. You could also inform your religious heads, if any, and get their blssings to mention in the invitation. GOD BLESS YOU ALL.:happy: :happy:

Dear Sir,

I can understand your anger! We never said all brahms should go for I C / I R weddings. Parents have lost control over their children.

The adults decide their life themselves and get married with or without the consent of their parents. If they select form brahmin community

parents are happy. If not, the independent parents either agree or disagree; dependent parents have to grin and bear it! :sad:

 

[Raji Ram]

Our extended families living abroad have accepted Jew, Italian, American, Chinese and so on as the sons in law / daughters in law!

All of them are absorbed into the familes and some of them relish 'thachchi mammu' also!! :hungry:

 

[KRN]

Dear Ms. Raji Ram

While we are debating on the nitty gritty like this￾0È3 precious life is ebbing by. Manu Smriti says *Stree Ratnam Dushkulaadapi*. So Manu has admitted that Sthree Ratnams can be found anywhere but one has to keep his eyes sharp and not fall for infatuation. And if a boy makes a mistake - so what? Whether we want it or not divorces are on the upswing even in marriages within the community.

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear KRN Sir,

We have discussed about divorces also several time in forum. It is no more considered as a stigma. High time our children learn

to be more tolerant and accept others as they are. The increase in divorces really panics because most of them are for petty reasons!

 

[krish44]

So, all of you want the entire brahmin families must go in for IC AND IP marriages and also convert themselves as NV fellows. Why should not you gentlemen and ladies show the way to others by getting your marriageble wards married to socalled intelligent NBS, converted ST and SC , muslims etc., and publicly releasing the invitation cards mentioning boldly the marriage is an IC or IP without first approching any brahmin family for an alliance for your wards. Doyou all have the guts to do that before preaching to others. You could also inform your religious heads, if any, and get their blssings to mention in the invitation. GOD BLESS YOU ALL.:happy: :happy:

Pnarasimhanji
I can understand your emotions.

Issues do not get settled thru emotions IMHO.

Previously , we all used to find a match only in same caste and sub caste Say iyengar/thengalai or Iyer/vadama ,. Now many have relaxed are ready to accept any

tamil brahmin iyer/iyengar. Both my children are this type of mix.But IC or IR I did not have the need to do so . But in my extended family I have both IC and IR.

They have not become outcastes on that account .As a matter of info. We could not find a brahmin match for offspring of B-NB match inspite of trying very hard and

had to settle for NB. The child of IR saw it fit to go to US for a better future and finding a mate from another religion, Brahmins are incapable of absorbing anyone else.

I never preach what I do not do or experienced . I am not worse off for the compromises made in terms of caste or religion. One does not do profit and loss account

regarding living . One takes what best one gets and live life to maximise happiness and not get caught in caste, subcaste or religion issues. there is more to life than

all this

 

[KRN]

Ms Raji Ram
I didnt mean divorce in the sense of a stigma but it is still a painful business isnt it?
Many years ago I read in the news paper in Kerala about a Nambudiri who did a *Brahmin conversion ceremony* for his wife who is a Nair. Of course both communities are on higher end. Still it made the news.
Narasimhan Sir
At least for the Brahmins in India￾0È3 do you think the SCs or Muslims would easily give their girls to Brahmin boys? They would think we are cunningly trying to usurp their reservation benefits.

 

[krish44]

Dear KRN Sir,

We have discussed about divorces also several time in forum. It is no more considered as a stigma. High time our children learn

to be more tolerant and accept others as they are. The increase in divorces really panics because most of them are for petty reasons!

Thee is another side to all this

We of the older generation believed in sanctity of marriage and continued in relationships lasting a lifetime with all its uncertainities ,ups and downs.

I do not know to what extent we are happy at the fag end of life. The way many continue in dead marriages as a matter of fact with little or no communication,no positive

feeling, one starts wondering whether there better ways of living,The next generation is more honest and they accept realities of mismatch and break up for a better

future for themselves.A few may be hasty also in calling it quits without trying enough to adjust to each other. Also experimentation with different modes of living

temporary friendships ,live ins ,and frequent break ups are here to stay. better accept the social realities and pray for a better future for the next generation.lol

 

[sarang]

Subsects in brahmins are formed, reformed and unformed for various reasons, not easy to comment now. But marriages between subsects was not uncommon in the past, as the girl becomes part of the husband's subsect. The primary aim of preserving and following the kula acharam was not affected and there was grudging acceptance if not open hand welcome. Even today if this position - girl follows boy's dharma after marriage - is followed, less opposition for the union. Presupposes that both families are practicing brahmins.

I know a few cases with other than brahmin girls marrying a brahmin boy wherein the girls have merged seamlessly from anushtanam to attire, and getting special kudos from in laws and relatives,

 

[psnarasimhan]

Dear sree K
I am not a person to get emotioned in all these matters. At my present age of 80+ i have seen hundreds of these IC marriages ending up only in divorces or NB boys abandoning girls after marriage or NB girls throwing out their brahboys etc., What I want to emphasise is why should not better placed boys/girls parents get their wards married to a poor brahmin girls or boys, ofcourse educated and employed, bring them up in the society's ladder. A lady who boasted about her extended families married to Americans,Jews,Italians,Japanese etc., but not with any negros turned out a priest (Purohit brahmin) when he approched them for an alliance to his BE daughter saying how could her family have an alliance with a purohit family. If I remember the lady herself
mentioned this in this forum during a debate/discussion. If I am wrong please point out my err and I will withdraw the above .

We are brahmins. Now the mindset of brahmins are slowly changing and a lot of intersect marriages are taking place between iyers, iyengars,sarmas,satris,madhwas,brahmins of bengal,maharashtrians,etc., In my own distant family an iyengar girl married a bengali brahmin, a boy with a maharastrian, and quite a number of marriages between smarthas,vadamas and iyengars etc.,

Let us hope and look forward that this trend continues forever...

Sarvam sree krishnaarpanamusthu....

 

[psnarasimhan]

Subsects in brahmins are formed, reformed and unformed for various reasons, not easy to comment now. But marriages between subsects was not uncommon in the past, as the girl becomes part of the husband's subsect. The primary aim of preserving and following the kula acharam was not affected and there was grudging acceptance if not open hand welcome. Even today if this position - girl follows boy's dharma after marriage - is followed, less opposition for the union. Presupposes that both families are practicing brahmins.

I know a few cases with other than brahmin girls marrying a brahmin boy wherein the girls have merged seamlessly from anushtanam to attire, and getting special kudos from in laws and relatives,

Thank you a lot Mr. Sarang. Atleaset There is one person to support my views.

 

[krish44]

Dear sree K
I am not a person to get emotioned in all these matters. At my present age of 80+ i have seen hundreds of these IC marriages ending up only in divorces or NB boys abandoning girls after marriage or NB girls throwing out their brahboys etc., What I want to emphasise is why should not better placed boys/girls parents get their wards married to a poor brahmin girls or boys, ofcourse educated and employed, bring them up in the society's ladder. A lady who boasted about her extended families married to Americans,Jews,Italians,Japanese etc., but not with any negros turned out a priest (Purohit brahmin) when he approched them for an alliance to his BE daughter saying how could her family have an alliance with a purohit family. If I remember the lady herself
mentioned this in this forum during a debate/discussion. If I am wrong please point out my err and I will withdraw the above .

We are brahmins. Now the mindset of brahmins are slowly changing and a lot of intersect marriages are taking place between iyers, iyengars,sarmas,satris,madhwas,brahmins of bengal,maharashtrians,etc., In my own distant family an iyengar girl married a bengali brahmin, a boy with a maharastrian, and quite a number of marriages between smarthas,vadamas and iyengars etc.,

Let us hope and look forward that this trend continues forever...

Sarvam sree krishnaarpanamusthu....

Why do you not suggest me some girls of the type you suggest-educated ,well employed and good looking in age group 22-25 yrs . not well off brahmin girls but

enterprising go getters.? It is difficult to get such combination. Poor brahmins do not have such off springs. They would have damaged their next generations also

because of their mindset.A few rare ones may exist . These girls will find their own escape routes and find matches in willing other caste men who are waiting to have

them as mates