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Inter caste marriages
- Thread starter pannvalan
- Start date
- Status
pann,
i am not so sure, that to deny the muslim rule of india, as part of slavery, as many of those rulers were born in india of indian converts.
i can understand, that from a hindu viewpoint, it is dismaying to think of the muslim rule as suppression of the hindu culture, by and large, and destruction of our temples, as is evidenced by no ancient such structures in the north india.
the british rule can be viewed as a overthrow of muslim domination by an imperial england, which was more tolerant towards its subjects where religion was concerned, ie it had no official policy of christianization.
the roots of the current prosperity of the TB community was laid by our wholesale adoption of the english language, and our willingness to physical mobility enroute to upward mobility.
we, TBs moved, not just to the north, but also to ceylon, burma, malay peninsula etc. these we did so willingly and knowingly.
whereas the prosperity of india can be evidenced only since the economic reforms of the 1990s, TBs unlike their brahmin counterparts from other parts of india, have prospered continually, till today we are dispersed all over the world, and doing well, i would imagine, everywhere we go.
it might be a tough call for many in modern day democratic india, to buy the 1000 years of slavery theory. i think, bjp government, with education dept under mm joshi tried to revise history per their political beliefs, but i think it was reversed by the congress govt.
history, the view that prevails, is one of the conqueror. the vanquished, think, can claim to be slaves.
paradoxically, i read long ago, that in pakistan, history begins with the invasion of ghazni and the defeat of prithviraj and later jayachandra.
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pann,
i understand your anquish, as i come from the same background.
but history is history. things that have happened a long time ago, we cannot correct.
we cannot turn the clock backwards? to turn the mind backwards, i think, is not only painful, but ultimately self defeating.
ancient wrongs, would then need to be avenged. this is what start the whole process of dividing the country along religions, castes and creeds and languages.
i think, it is better to look forward. ensure that such things do not happen again. in order to do so, we need to develop the attitude that everything around us in india, belongs to all of us.
there will always be extremes. in the interest of indian unity and prosperity, i think, it is wiser to let some of the evils of the past, lie low like those proverbial sleeping dogs.
the alternatives are not pleasant.
thank you.
If anger about the past is justifiable, then this should also be justifiable:
The anger that buddhists and jains have on hindus for taking over their temples (i mean those taken over by fradulent means).
The anger that tamils have on the brahmins for introducing birth-based rigidity into a so-called 'pure tamil' society that had no "spiritual" basis for job allotment (until the 'brahmins' arrived and created the "spiritual" divisive mess, according to them).
The anger that dalits, all over india have, for similar reasons as above.
The anger that outfits like naxals and Ltte have on the upper castes (esp brahmins and sections of north indians) for ruining their social fabric, by degrading them with caste tags.
After hanging out on this forum, i am able to understand why some particular type of brahmins are disliked....and its not the fault of the people for disliking them.
Sri Appaiah ji speaks of increasing the population of the capables versus the incapables. It cud come across as a somewhat imperialist attitude, esp in an age of limited resources. Why not think in terms of making the incapables into capables? Provide them with education, skills, bring awareness to them about the benefits of smaller families,...if even my mother can turn around atleast 50 families thru family planning education, surely it is a very-very possible task.
We are a nation aren't we - and are supposed to stick out for our fellow indians. Unfortunately, we are castes, not a nation. What a shame we are...
Regards.
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tbs
0
pannvalan sir,
just see the sri krishna janmasthan in mathura, UP ...kannile
thannir varum....near kannan porantha jail pakkam ...just adjacent
a mosque in the same campus...same way in kasi sri viswanath
temple...enna seyyarathu...history is history....just cry silently...
regards
tbs
renuka
Well-known member
History is the best teacher. History need not repeat but we can all learn from it.
We should strive to maintain the cultural and religious heritage sites we have and also revive and renovate any old abandoned temple instead of building new ones.
Let the future generation have tears of Ananda and not tears of sorrow.
Respectable forum members,
Indian Hindus allowed the invading Mughals overcome us. It was unfortunate. But the sad fact was, not everyone could defend the country. Defending job was left only to the soldiers of small kingdom; the small kingdoms did not unite often enough to defeat the invaders. The country which had so much riches was looted and stripped bare due to the irresponsible behaviours of the ruling class and planning/advising class.
Sri appaiah Sir made some suggestions for the retainment of Hindu culture. With due respect to Sri Appiah’s feelings and concerns, I am of the opinion, more factors are needed addressing. There must be reason for the people in the Hindu fold to have a sense of belonging and a sense of pride; Does everyone have such pride? Are we required to defend Hinduism? How often? These are the questions we should ask ourselves. If we require defending Hinduism, her principles or her scriptures, then it can be difficult to maintain the sense of pride. If there is a cause for defending Hinduism, such cause should be eradicated.
Hindus are not united. There are for too many divisions. Hinduism if still functions, it is inspite of such divisive forces. To be honest, personally I would not stay as a Hindu for one single day if I have to go through caste based discriminations. ‘we are united in diversity’ is an empty statement; there is no unity. Unless the divisions are eradicated, Hindus may find it very hard to survive in the future.
Personally I won’t consider Christianity as an opposing religion to Hinduism. The ages of ‘Goa inquisition’ are over. Two or three sects of Christianity may be annoying; those sects are annoying here (Australia) too! These sects are trying to convert Christians in to their sect! I sincerely hope that the forum would highlight this point. The church and the state are separated in Christianity. So, I honestly don’t foresee huge problem from that end.
The other religion is different. There is going to be a day of decision in the future. At that time, the capable citizens of India will have to fight for the country in most of the towns and cities. Sri.Appiah Sir, all the people should be required to be treated uniformly. Then only there will be a commitment to fight. The requirement is not the quantity, but quality. (Democracy has already failed anyway).
Indian Hindus allowed the invading Mughals overcome us. It was unfortunate. But the sad fact was, not everyone could defend the country. Defending job was left only to the soldiers of small kingdom; the small kingdoms did not unite often enough to defeat the invaders. The country which had so much riches was looted and stripped bare due to the irresponsible behaviours of the ruling class and planning/advising class.
Sri appaiah Sir made some suggestions for the retainment of Hindu culture. With due respect to Sri Appiah’s feelings and concerns, I am of the opinion, more factors are needed addressing. There must be reason for the people in the Hindu fold to have a sense of belonging and a sense of pride; Does everyone have such pride? Are we required to defend Hinduism? How often? These are the questions we should ask ourselves. If we require defending Hinduism, her principles or her scriptures, then it can be difficult to maintain the sense of pride. If there is a cause for defending Hinduism, such cause should be eradicated.
Hindus are not united. There are for too many divisions. Hinduism if still functions, it is inspite of such divisive forces. To be honest, personally I would not stay as a Hindu for one single day if I have to go through caste based discriminations. ‘we are united in diversity’ is an empty statement; there is no unity. Unless the divisions are eradicated, Hindus may find it very hard to survive in the future.
Personally I won’t consider Christianity as an opposing religion to Hinduism. The ages of ‘Goa inquisition’ are over. Two or three sects of Christianity may be annoying; those sects are annoying here (Australia) too! These sects are trying to convert Christians in to their sect! I sincerely hope that the forum would highlight this point. The church and the state are separated in Christianity. So, I honestly don’t foresee huge problem from that end.
The other religion is different. There is going to be a day of decision in the future. At that time, the capable citizens of India will have to fight for the country in most of the towns and cities. Sri.Appiah Sir, all the people should be required to be treated uniformly. Then only there will be a commitment to fight. The requirement is not the quantity, but quality. (Democracy has already failed anyway).
RVR
0
Let us not go back to history and blame each other. If Babar has demolished Ram temple and constructed a mosque it is bad. BJP & Co demolishing the mosque is also bad.
Ill treatment of daliths in the past is bad. Brahmin bashing right now is also bad.
Singalese community ill treating Tamils is bad. LTTE taking law into its hand is also bad.
Land Lords exploiting landless labour is bad. Naxalites taking law into their hands is also bad.
As a nation, we should try all round development. Not at the cost of one community. All communities should develop their skills.
Only our politicians are reminding us about the caste. In cities, no body knows about the caste of other person. But in villages it is not getting eliminated which is a shame. Let the deprived communities enhance their knowledge and migrate to cities and towns so that caste differenciation is further reduced.
All the best
RVR ji,
My post was to Pannvalan ji who generally, imo, seems to have (or chooses to have) selective anger over selective things....overlooking the follies of brahmins themselves (please note it takes 2 to clap, brahmins cannot keep blaming everything else but consider themselves infallible)...
All i was trying to convey is this --
If past discrimination can be justified in the name of dharma, let there be no complaints about current reverse discriminations. Tough, isn't it?
If caste is removed amongst the individuals, what can politicians do. Isn't that one of the reasons why Jayendra Swami was implicated -- bcoz he reached out to 'dalits' and was removing the 'anti-brahmin' sentiment..Jayendra Swami, am told, even considered a proposal to admit anyone to vedapatshalas irrespective of caste, but wanted to give the idea some time, and refrained from making any move that wud upset the orthodoxy suddenly - obviously such things were seen as a threat by the dravida establishments.
If anti-brahminism goes, how will those politicans survive, when they will have nothing to make politics out of.
No sir, politicians are not reminding us of caste. Some certain individuals amongst brahmins and other hindus (the so-called orthodoxy) are. Politicians are only taking advantage of caste.
Reg migration to cities, i think its about the same circles. We keep repeating the same things again and again.
Imo, migration to cities is detrimental to the economy. Without anyone to grow crops, am afraid i may have to pay a very high price for food.
The whole point is just this -- unless the caste system goes (so-called "spiritually" and politically) -- there is no hope for an all-inclusive development.
The all-round development you speak of is a selective one, not an all-inclusive one.
An all-inclusive one wud be the one that does not segregate based on the excuse of "shastras", does not seek to demean based on birth, does not seek to "keep caste".
It cud almost be a joke of sorts if some individuals doing such things wish to be considered as an all-inclusive society.
Whatever development is taking place, is despite the nominal caste system that is in existence (nominal, boz of industrialization) -- and that also i think will disappear in due course of time with more modernisation.
It is the older generation (irrespective of caste), imo, that's the biggest stumbling block. The younger generations has, and will reject, caste anyways...And eventually the use of 'caste" as a political platform will be gone...And jobless politicans will need to brace up to an electorate that demands performance..
Ok i have said enuf. This is a TB forum. Let me refrain from saying anything further.
Best wishes and bye.
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Art of Listening
Dear Sri SuryaKasyapa
Namaskarams.
I share your feelings. However, Sri Nara is entitled to his views. In this entire thread, only in his two posts made to me, he has used some hard words. I think that my suggestion to reject the advice of the Government in the matter of one child norm has upset him. I have been taught by my Management Guru to cultivate the habit of listening. Listening is an art. By listening to the other side views patiently and attentively, we can improve our own understanding of the subject. My Guru used to say when some one comes out with a view point, listen to him fully. If the one who raises a point happens to be much lower in the rung, it is very essential that you must never interrupt him, allow him to have his full say. He used to advise that one must not intimidate the talker while listening to him. I have benefited by following this advice. I perhaps would think that Sri Nara’s first post to me was intimidating in nature. That is all. This is the technique normally followed by the road side masters, when they notice an accident between a car and a cycle, they would immediately catch hold of the car driver and bash him up so that he would never be able to put forth his case properly especially when the cyclist was really at fault. This is the method followed by the politicians to silence the resistance as well. You might notice that the Karunanithi and Jayalalithaa, even while being Chief Minister, going on fast as and when the public opinion against them swells and opposition parties getting stronger.
But on our part, I still have to listen if I want to benefit by the other side viewpoints. A discussion involves listening and then getting back with facts and points. After all, Sri Nara is also one among us. We need to carry all along in our goal. Please correct me if I am wrong. If Bhagavat Pada Aadhi Shankara conjoined all small groups and consolidated Sanatana Dharma to what it is today, it was by discussions and debates, as we all know.
Likewise, you are entitled to not only your views but also your own ways of expressing your views. I respect that. Time is a great curator. It will take care.
I fully share your concern for the heritage. That is why I have made a long post on the subject separately.
Regards
Dear Sri SuryaKasyapa
Namaskarams.
I share your feelings. However, Sri Nara is entitled to his views. In this entire thread, only in his two posts made to me, he has used some hard words. I think that my suggestion to reject the advice of the Government in the matter of one child norm has upset him. I have been taught by my Management Guru to cultivate the habit of listening. Listening is an art. By listening to the other side views patiently and attentively, we can improve our own understanding of the subject. My Guru used to say when some one comes out with a view point, listen to him fully. If the one who raises a point happens to be much lower in the rung, it is very essential that you must never interrupt him, allow him to have his full say. He used to advise that one must not intimidate the talker while listening to him. I have benefited by following this advice. I perhaps would think that Sri Nara’s first post to me was intimidating in nature. That is all. This is the technique normally followed by the road side masters, when they notice an accident between a car and a cycle, they would immediately catch hold of the car driver and bash him up so that he would never be able to put forth his case properly especially when the cyclist was really at fault. This is the method followed by the politicians to silence the resistance as well. You might notice that the Karunanithi and Jayalalithaa, even while being Chief Minister, going on fast as and when the public opinion against them swells and opposition parties getting stronger.
But on our part, I still have to listen if I want to benefit by the other side viewpoints. A discussion involves listening and then getting back with facts and points. After all, Sri Nara is also one among us. We need to carry all along in our goal. Please correct me if I am wrong. If Bhagavat Pada Aadhi Shankara conjoined all small groups and consolidated Sanatana Dharma to what it is today, it was by discussions and debates, as we all know.
Likewise, you are entitled to not only your views but also your own ways of expressing your views. I respect that. Time is a great curator. It will take care.
I fully share your concern for the heritage. That is why I have made a long post on the subject separately.
Regards
Heritage
Dear Sri Pannvalan
Namaskarams.
I note some relief in you after reading my posts.
Heritage: The dictionary meaning of heritage is inheritance, legacy, tradition, custom, birth right.
The heritage of India can be what belongs originally to this land, the land of Bharat - its rivers including the River Saraswati, its mountains, its hill ranges in the North, South West and East, its jungles and forests, flora and fauna, its natural wealth, its mines, ores, its various waterways and water bodies and the produce that this land bears, its people who have lived for thousands of years generations after generations, their customs, tradition, practices, labour, art, science, literature, scriptures and everything that goes with its land, people and their creations.
Unfortunately, the so-called intellectuals that this Nation has produced have not understood the meaning of this word ‘heritage’ and they (including organisations like INTACH) give a different connotation to this term. They seem to think that any building that is old is heritage, unmindful of its origin. If a statue or a building is 100 years old, they cry for its preservation with the taxpayer’s money claiming it is of heritage value. The origin is never a matter for them.
The Europeans and the Persians, who invaded this country have left their remains and left-over, in the form of some colonial buildings, statues in honour of their bravery (for making the natives their slaves!), even some graves. Today’s Government “preserves” them by spending Tax payer’s money! The statues of “Sir” Thomas Munroe, Robert Clive, Queen Victoria, King George, Warren Hastings and the like are standing proud in important junctions in Independent India, bearing testimony to its slavery. The Graves of Persian invaders are all located in hundreds of acres in the National Capital and they are all preserved! The graves of Danish invaders, the British Collector’s Bungalow and the Danish Governor’s Bungalow in Tharangambadi are preserved as Heritage buildings. A Danish Grave is not heritage of India. A Persian Grave is not heritage of Bharat. Who will be able to nail this sense into the corrupt minds of the Politicians who are nothing but vote-crazy and Government Babus who are power crazy? The intellectual Press is no better.
On the other hand the temples that are as old as one thousand, two thousand years or more are all in shambles. The Government does not care for as these are religious places and a secular Government can do little about them and these are huge numbers. The temple renovations are always carried out by collecting donations. The HR & CE department allocates funds for Annadhanams and charity irrespective of religion from the hundi collections, but collects fresh and separate donations for renovation of temples. The move of the Union Culture Ministry to get the Tiruvannamalai temple as UN List of World Monuments is stiffly opposed by the Secular politicians, media and encroachers from all religions and stopped. On the other hand graves of invaders some two hundred or five hundred years of age are classified as World Heritage Monument and these are maintained by UN sponsored funds.
So that tax that the Natives pay are for the preservation of Colonial Monuments bearing testimony to the Slavery and Salvage and not for the preservation of the original and true heritage of this Nation.
The game plan is simple. As long as possible, the European attempted at colonisation either by war or treachery. Now in the modern era, the game plan is by conversion into their religion and destroyal of the heritage and culture of the other countries. Japan has almost lost its culture and heritage. South East Asian countries have also almost lost their culture and heritage. They first made most of China and Russia irreligious and later the irreligious are slowly converted to Christianity. In countries like India, they first made the country Secular, now the process is to either make the populace agnostic or Christians. Nepal is now made Secular, slowly it will become a Communist country, irreligious one and later communism will be wiped and the country made one of Christians. The process is written on the wall.
Ultimately, the Christians are planning one world where there is only one religion. Buddhism in China. Japan and South East Asia has been dissipated. Hinduism is the third largest religion and its only base is India. There are Indians who are either naïve or “broad-minded” and they have fallen to the Secular theories. Co-existence is possible without secularism, it is happening in most of the Christian countries but when it comes to India, the whole world will say that co-existence of all religious denominations is possible only if India is Secular. Once India’s cultural heritage is demolished, then there would be a bloody war between Islamic Nations and Christian Nations, but they will create some other reason for the war.
The Bhamian Buddha Monument was demolished by the Muslims and the whole world was mute witness. For spitting on his face, Saddam invaded Kuwait. For protecting Kuwait, US went on a war on Iraq and is collecting war reparations from Iraq still! Who asked the Kuwaiti representative at the OIC meeting to spit on the face of Saddam so as to provoke him for war need not be told. It is now open secret. Certainly the Americans and Europeans.
But the Bhamian Buddha demolition is not an issue at all for the West. Quite contrary, for the demolition of a disputed structure in Ayodhya, the entire Oil producing countries would shout loud and every year the day would be remembered by them as well as our Government so that the hatred towards the demolishers is maintained and refreshed. Does this world know on what date the Bhamian Buddha was demolished? But every one knows the date 9th November for the demolition of the twin towers in New York!
There are Christian Nations, Muslim Nations in this world. The UN should force all Nations to become Secular and make the whole world free from the religious clutches of The Popes, Arch Bishops and Imams. The Ayotullas, the Mullas and Moulanas. Let them allow Hindus to build temples in Vatican and Saudi Arabia.
The days of caste-based discrimination are over. These days, there are caste conflicts arising not primarily out of discrimination but out of the fight for land and its produce. In all the villages the fight is between the dominant community and the dalits for capturing the land and political power. The dalits cannot be cheated or oppressed anymore. On the contrary, in some places even the dominant castes are afraid of the dalit population for the fear of PCR complaint!
If I say that the population of our community must not be reduced, my statement is twisted and misinterpreted as if it were a call for increase in population. But if the Imam says that the Muslims should not adhere to family planning or the Archbishops of Kottayam and Kochi say that Christianity does not approve of family planning and call all true Christians to adhere to Biblical verses in this regard, our broad-minded brothers and sisters will keep mum. Because, the minorities have to be protected.
Projects like Joshua Project and Project Thessalonica have been commissioned by the Christians so that the Religious Denominations of the Hindus are dismantled. The call for inter-caste marriages was made by E.V.Ramasami Naicker because he wanted to demolish the Hindu structure. This was ably supported by the British Government, because the Justice Party was a Stooge of the British Colonial Government in India. In the modern times, the call is being made frequently in every possible corner so that the process of secularisation and later the eventual goal can be completed.
I am not against individual preferences as far as marriage goes. If someone has a preference for someone else, irrespective of caste, let that someone go for that. It should be on an individual level alone. There cannot be an open call made on a macro level. That would be opening the floodgates. If over a period of time such preferences take over the macro scenario, let it happen. We need not meddle with the system either by encouraging openly going whole hog or opposing tooth and nail. Meddling with such large issue might produce any kind of result and none would be able to control the happenings thereafter. It is a process that has to come slow and on its own. It must evolve by itself. If that is inevitable, who can stop it? If it is evitable, the Society itself will take care. Whatever happens must evolve by itself. As they say, water will find its own level. Hinduism has adjusted itself to the changing times and requirements from time to time. Similarly it will adjust itself in this aspect also.
Regards
Dear Sri Pannvalan
Namaskarams.
I note some relief in you after reading my posts.
Heritage: The dictionary meaning of heritage is inheritance, legacy, tradition, custom, birth right.
The heritage of India can be what belongs originally to this land, the land of Bharat - its rivers including the River Saraswati, its mountains, its hill ranges in the North, South West and East, its jungles and forests, flora and fauna, its natural wealth, its mines, ores, its various waterways and water bodies and the produce that this land bears, its people who have lived for thousands of years generations after generations, their customs, tradition, practices, labour, art, science, literature, scriptures and everything that goes with its land, people and their creations.
Unfortunately, the so-called intellectuals that this Nation has produced have not understood the meaning of this word ‘heritage’ and they (including organisations like INTACH) give a different connotation to this term. They seem to think that any building that is old is heritage, unmindful of its origin. If a statue or a building is 100 years old, they cry for its preservation with the taxpayer’s money claiming it is of heritage value. The origin is never a matter for them.
The Europeans and the Persians, who invaded this country have left their remains and left-over, in the form of some colonial buildings, statues in honour of their bravery (for making the natives their slaves!), even some graves. Today’s Government “preserves” them by spending Tax payer’s money! The statues of “Sir” Thomas Munroe, Robert Clive, Queen Victoria, King George, Warren Hastings and the like are standing proud in important junctions in Independent India, bearing testimony to its slavery. The Graves of Persian invaders are all located in hundreds of acres in the National Capital and they are all preserved! The graves of Danish invaders, the British Collector’s Bungalow and the Danish Governor’s Bungalow in Tharangambadi are preserved as Heritage buildings. A Danish Grave is not heritage of India. A Persian Grave is not heritage of Bharat. Who will be able to nail this sense into the corrupt minds of the Politicians who are nothing but vote-crazy and Government Babus who are power crazy? The intellectual Press is no better.
On the other hand the temples that are as old as one thousand, two thousand years or more are all in shambles. The Government does not care for as these are religious places and a secular Government can do little about them and these are huge numbers. The temple renovations are always carried out by collecting donations. The HR & CE department allocates funds for Annadhanams and charity irrespective of religion from the hundi collections, but collects fresh and separate donations for renovation of temples. The move of the Union Culture Ministry to get the Tiruvannamalai temple as UN List of World Monuments is stiffly opposed by the Secular politicians, media and encroachers from all religions and stopped. On the other hand graves of invaders some two hundred or five hundred years of age are classified as World Heritage Monument and these are maintained by UN sponsored funds.
So that tax that the Natives pay are for the preservation of Colonial Monuments bearing testimony to the Slavery and Salvage and not for the preservation of the original and true heritage of this Nation.
The game plan is simple. As long as possible, the European attempted at colonisation either by war or treachery. Now in the modern era, the game plan is by conversion into their religion and destroyal of the heritage and culture of the other countries. Japan has almost lost its culture and heritage. South East Asian countries have also almost lost their culture and heritage. They first made most of China and Russia irreligious and later the irreligious are slowly converted to Christianity. In countries like India, they first made the country Secular, now the process is to either make the populace agnostic or Christians. Nepal is now made Secular, slowly it will become a Communist country, irreligious one and later communism will be wiped and the country made one of Christians. The process is written on the wall.
Ultimately, the Christians are planning one world where there is only one religion. Buddhism in China. Japan and South East Asia has been dissipated. Hinduism is the third largest religion and its only base is India. There are Indians who are either naïve or “broad-minded” and they have fallen to the Secular theories. Co-existence is possible without secularism, it is happening in most of the Christian countries but when it comes to India, the whole world will say that co-existence of all religious denominations is possible only if India is Secular. Once India’s cultural heritage is demolished, then there would be a bloody war between Islamic Nations and Christian Nations, but they will create some other reason for the war.
The Bhamian Buddha Monument was demolished by the Muslims and the whole world was mute witness. For spitting on his face, Saddam invaded Kuwait. For protecting Kuwait, US went on a war on Iraq and is collecting war reparations from Iraq still! Who asked the Kuwaiti representative at the OIC meeting to spit on the face of Saddam so as to provoke him for war need not be told. It is now open secret. Certainly the Americans and Europeans.
But the Bhamian Buddha demolition is not an issue at all for the West. Quite contrary, for the demolition of a disputed structure in Ayodhya, the entire Oil producing countries would shout loud and every year the day would be remembered by them as well as our Government so that the hatred towards the demolishers is maintained and refreshed. Does this world know on what date the Bhamian Buddha was demolished? But every one knows the date 9th November for the demolition of the twin towers in New York!
There are Christian Nations, Muslim Nations in this world. The UN should force all Nations to become Secular and make the whole world free from the religious clutches of The Popes, Arch Bishops and Imams. The Ayotullas, the Mullas and Moulanas. Let them allow Hindus to build temples in Vatican and Saudi Arabia.
The days of caste-based discrimination are over. These days, there are caste conflicts arising not primarily out of discrimination but out of the fight for land and its produce. In all the villages the fight is between the dominant community and the dalits for capturing the land and political power. The dalits cannot be cheated or oppressed anymore. On the contrary, in some places even the dominant castes are afraid of the dalit population for the fear of PCR complaint!
If I say that the population of our community must not be reduced, my statement is twisted and misinterpreted as if it were a call for increase in population. But if the Imam says that the Muslims should not adhere to family planning or the Archbishops of Kottayam and Kochi say that Christianity does not approve of family planning and call all true Christians to adhere to Biblical verses in this regard, our broad-minded brothers and sisters will keep mum. Because, the minorities have to be protected.
Projects like Joshua Project and Project Thessalonica have been commissioned by the Christians so that the Religious Denominations of the Hindus are dismantled. The call for inter-caste marriages was made by E.V.Ramasami Naicker because he wanted to demolish the Hindu structure. This was ably supported by the British Government, because the Justice Party was a Stooge of the British Colonial Government in India. In the modern times, the call is being made frequently in every possible corner so that the process of secularisation and later the eventual goal can be completed.
I am not against individual preferences as far as marriage goes. If someone has a preference for someone else, irrespective of caste, let that someone go for that. It should be on an individual level alone. There cannot be an open call made on a macro level. That would be opening the floodgates. If over a period of time such preferences take over the macro scenario, let it happen. We need not meddle with the system either by encouraging openly going whole hog or opposing tooth and nail. Meddling with such large issue might produce any kind of result and none would be able to control the happenings thereafter. It is a process that has to come slow and on its own. It must evolve by itself. If that is inevitable, who can stop it? If it is evitable, the Society itself will take care. Whatever happens must evolve by itself. As they say, water will find its own level. Hinduism has adjusted itself to the changing times and requirements from time to time. Similarly it will adjust itself in this aspect also.
Regards
C RAVI
0
Sri Happyhindu ji,
I feel, all of your statements were perfectly fine. In fact you have correctly highlighted the facts that can not be left ignored. I would have felt more happy if you would have not restricted yourself with your comments considering TB forum.
There is nothing wrong to criticize yourself. Unless we have the courage to see our own faults we can never improve our self.
More over there is nothing wrong to share our views and opinions among our self, doesn’t matter where we stand.
---------------------
Coming to the point
Complete and successful eradication of cast system would seem to be possible only if no discrimination/preferences/selections exist in every individual's living within the Hindu society through out India.
To start with, if we undertake such revolution within Tamil Nadu among Hindus in general, than every Tamilian need to have similar mind frame to accept the concept and unanimously work towards the progress.
For this revolution to happen (without carrying the past and present enmity and bitterness among Hindu communities), "INTER CAST MARRIAGES" would be the only solution. This would help society to integrate well and get rid of cast system once for all
Can we think that it's really possible to happen?
When -
- Parental sentiments (not all parents support inter-cast love/arrange marriages)
- Social isolation
- Clueless identity of the children of the couples in the society who all had inter cast marriage
- Official set up (schools/colleges) that insist for indicating the Cast (Politicians/Politics governs such official set up's)
- Spiritual sentiments....etc...etc..
rules every one in a day-to-day life.
- Amidst all these complicated Indian setups, can we dream of having a single Hindu society without cast system in India?
- Can we expect uneducated and narrow minded villagers (who all are actively involved in agriculture and helping us to have good food at a reasonable price) to understand the concept, accept the concept and help the Urban people to complete the mission successfully?
- Can we expect Indian Politicians to be honest and get into this revolution hand-in-glow?
I feel that an attempt by one of the social organizations to organize "Swayamwarm" jus based on the religion - "Hindu" and campaigning to enable people to participate, accepting inter cast marriages (by just giving priority to the individual preferences of boys and girls in general) would be the right idea to see the results within the educated urban folks.
- At least can we expect any one organization to take such an initiative? (Dosen't matter, what the level of response would be?)
I feel, as a common man, it would be just better for us to live peacefully, the way we want with our conscious and love for all.
Dear HappyHinduji
Namaskarams
I understand your feelings. You probalby think that we (including me) are interested in continuing the caste discrimination and differences. Far from that. The Tamil Brahmins as you know have come a long way. Today, there is no Tamil brahmin who discriminates on the basis of caste. In reality, it is the Brahmins who face discrimination at the hands of the rulers in Tamilnadu. I dont have to produce evidences for this. The rulers themselves publicly take pride in doing that. While so, there is no need to think that we want to continue the differences.
As I have already stated earlier (over a year ago in my posts) there are five dominant castes in Tamilnadu, namely, the Vanniars in northern districts, the Nadars in South and South western districts, the Thevars in South and Southeast districts, the Kongu Vellala Gounders in Western districts and the Dalits spread all across the State. These four dominant are the ones who oppressed the Dalits all along and these are the ones who even now fight with the dalits. The fight is essentially for the grab of the land holdings and political power. But as you rightly pointed out, the politicians never point a finger at these dominant castes and will put the blame squarely on the Brahmins for all the woes. IT is the politicians and these dominant castes that cause all the differences and we Tamil Brahmins have no control over them. We are in fact at the receiving end because we are a minority and we lack muscle power as well.
Please note that I have not advocated increase in the population of the capable. I wanted the control of population of the incapable. To do this doesnot mean imperialism. I pointed out that the people who are unable to bring up even one child properly are producing four children and the so-called intellectuals do not even take notice of this. Rather than attending to the weak spot, there is extra attention only at reducing the Brahmin population. How is this justified? Do you ever think that the Nation can flourish if we do not control the population where it really bursts? I even gave the example - it is like cutting a good part so as to make adjustments for overgrown fat in the body. When there is a problem, we must address the correct spot - that is what I said.
I do not agree with you that we are only castes and not a Nation. The castes are divisions, which have been there for thousands of years. They will vanish over a long period of time. No individual can ever hasten that process and no individual can ever stop or slow that process.
It is not only Hinduism, which have castes. The Christians have it. The Muslims have it. As of now that is not talked about. Once the Christians marginalise Hinduism, they will carry on propaganda on castes within Muslims. Mostly the Christians will win the war against Muslims and will marginalise Islam too. Then the fight among the Christian castes will be public.
Even now there is fight between the Anglican Church in London and the Catholic Church in Vatican. The Vatican is admitting the Christians of Anglican Church in UK and the simmering dispute is on. Humans will always have one division or other among themselves and no individual can do anything about that. We must ensure that there is no discrimination or stigma on the basis of castes.
Regards
Namaskarams
I understand your feelings. You probalby think that we (including me) are interested in continuing the caste discrimination and differences. Far from that. The Tamil Brahmins as you know have come a long way. Today, there is no Tamil brahmin who discriminates on the basis of caste. In reality, it is the Brahmins who face discrimination at the hands of the rulers in Tamilnadu. I dont have to produce evidences for this. The rulers themselves publicly take pride in doing that. While so, there is no need to think that we want to continue the differences.
As I have already stated earlier (over a year ago in my posts) there are five dominant castes in Tamilnadu, namely, the Vanniars in northern districts, the Nadars in South and South western districts, the Thevars in South and Southeast districts, the Kongu Vellala Gounders in Western districts and the Dalits spread all across the State. These four dominant are the ones who oppressed the Dalits all along and these are the ones who even now fight with the dalits. The fight is essentially for the grab of the land holdings and political power. But as you rightly pointed out, the politicians never point a finger at these dominant castes and will put the blame squarely on the Brahmins for all the woes. IT is the politicians and these dominant castes that cause all the differences and we Tamil Brahmins have no control over them. We are in fact at the receiving end because we are a minority and we lack muscle power as well.
Please note that I have not advocated increase in the population of the capable. I wanted the control of population of the incapable. To do this doesnot mean imperialism. I pointed out that the people who are unable to bring up even one child properly are producing four children and the so-called intellectuals do not even take notice of this. Rather than attending to the weak spot, there is extra attention only at reducing the Brahmin population. How is this justified? Do you ever think that the Nation can flourish if we do not control the population where it really bursts? I even gave the example - it is like cutting a good part so as to make adjustments for overgrown fat in the body. When there is a problem, we must address the correct spot - that is what I said.
I do not agree with you that we are only castes and not a Nation. The castes are divisions, which have been there for thousands of years. They will vanish over a long period of time. No individual can ever hasten that process and no individual can ever stop or slow that process.
It is not only Hinduism, which have castes. The Christians have it. The Muslims have it. As of now that is not talked about. Once the Christians marginalise Hinduism, they will carry on propaganda on castes within Muslims. Mostly the Christians will win the war against Muslims and will marginalise Islam too. Then the fight among the Christian castes will be public.
Even now there is fight between the Anglican Church in London and the Catholic Church in Vatican. The Vatican is admitting the Christians of Anglican Church in UK and the simmering dispute is on. Humans will always have one division or other among themselves and no individual can do anything about that. We must ensure that there is no discrimination or stigma on the basis of castes.
Regards
Once 'brahmins' stop opposing admission of 'dalits' to vedic schools, and give them enuf respect, all sections of the society will eventually start treating them ok. They need not suffer from ill-treatment just because the so-called upper castes wants a 'brand' or an 'image'.
Please note: Old folk in my own family keeps passing crass comments on 'dalits'. I know exactly how the orthodoxy will feel about admitting "such people" into mainstream hinduism.
The prob is that the old generation is resistant to change. They stuff their ideas of orthodoxy into the heads of the next generation. And some people fall for it.
I thank god that every single member in the generation of my parents chose to defy their older folk in such matters. And their offspring now knows nothing abt caste. Yes, they have a strong hindu identity.
Why do you only think of marriage? Why not think of other ways. The matts can very well make statements that jaati-dharma does not apply in today's times. They can very well admit students of all castes into vedic schools. They can very well live by example of an all-inclusive society.
I do not understand what you mean by a clueless identity. Don't you have an identity as a hindu? What kind of identity and how much of "identity" do you need when you go to work in a regular office? Its the 21st century. Please wake up.
And what are "spiritual sentiments"? Don't the downtrodden have any spiritual sentiments? Whatever "spiritual sentiments" ppl talks of is only "image sentiment", nothing to do with spiritualism or the state of the spirit.
Yes ofcourse. Its possible. Do you wear your caste on your sleeve when you go to work? We are talking about the new age economy and secular jobs.
Once changes start at the grass-roots level, what can politicans do, what can missionairies, what can anti-state ppl do....try and see the change, instead of speculating how things cannot be achieved..
Villagers are not narrow-minded. They are illiterate. They do not know their rights. Educate them, make them aware, then they will know.
Why talk about politicians without making any attempts ourselves? What can those opportunists do at all (methinks they will start crying if there is no more anti-brahmanism left).
You know Ravi, i cannot help feel that all this talk is just to somehow evade 'loss of identity" by 'brahmins'. Not yours. But those by others.
Regards.
Dear Appaiah ji,
Namaskaram.
Female doctors that i know of, say that slum women are not interested in repeated pregnancies, but they do not know contraception. In the past, family planning education failed because the slum men did not want to use condoms. There is a lot of success with the use of contraceptive pills.
The women who practice contraception (some manage to even own a fridge
), pass on the ideas of small family and better living to other women, who too want to have a similar life.
I have underlined something that i consider a fallacy. Just as you mention abt higher number of children amongst the people around you, my mother can tell you that most of the maids she has employed so far have only one child. Our current maid in chennai also has only one married daughter, who too got a tubectomy done after she had just one daughter (now 5 years old).
In an age when resources are limited, its best to see families getting smaller (with not more than 2 kids). And there is no caste involved in that. Nor is it based on whose is capable or incapable.
Yes, no single individual can do anything. Whatever changes have been happening in post-independent india has been happening because everyone has willed it so (except some certain people who either have vested interests or are resistant to change).
Christian demoninations are not fixed by birth. These demoninations do not say some people are 'superior" by birth and some are demeanable by birth. They do not fix a rank at birth, like first rank (brahmin), 2nd rank (kshatriya), or inhumanly label a new-born baby as an untouchable (by birth). They are not propagated by 'jaati-dharma'.
Sir, to conclude, i think only some certain 'brahmins' want jaati-dharma to remain. As also some other hindus. They talk against 'casteism' but they actually want casteism to remain. They blame everything, point out fingers everywhere else, but not once look within. And all of that for what - just an image. Or rather a "spritual" image of "greatness" (by birth).
Regards.
Namaskaram.
Sir, please read my comments to Ravi ji above. We cannot say there is no discrimination on "spiritual" or religious grounds happening anymore.
Sir, i have touched upon this too in my note to ravi ji above. When there are changes at the grass-roots level (that is at the level of the religious establishments), there will be changes at other levels too. If 'dalits' start getting admitted to vedic schools, no one can treat them shabbily anymore. Politicians cannot do a thing.
Controlling population of the incapables is possible only by educating them, and making them aware of the benefits of small families.
Female doctors that i know of, say that slum women are not interested in repeated pregnancies, but they do not know contraception. In the past, family planning education failed because the slum men did not want to use condoms. There is a lot of success with the use of contraceptive pills.
The women who practice contraception (some manage to even own a fridge
), pass on the ideas of small family and better living to other women, who too want to have a similar life.I have underlined something that i consider a fallacy. Just as you mention abt higher number of children amongst the people around you, my mother can tell you that most of the maids she has employed so far have only one child. Our current maid in chennai also has only one married daughter, who too got a tubectomy done after she had just one daughter (now 5 years old).
In an age when resources are limited, its best to see families getting smaller (with not more than 2 kids). And there is no caste involved in that. Nor is it based on whose is capable or incapable.
Sorry sir, i do think we are castes and we can became a nation only by removing castes. I don't buy the idea of thousands of years either. Occupations and communities have constantly been evolving / changing.
Yes, no single individual can do anything. Whatever changes have been happening in post-independent india has been happening because everyone has willed it so (except some certain people who either have vested interests or are resistant to change).
As long as their religion of origin, that is hindusim, has castes, they (muslims and christians) too will continue to have castes. Remove castes from hindusim, and lets see what happens there. Methinks people will start returning back to hindusim.
Ofcourse all forms of highs and lows will exist. But lets not justify segregation on "spiritual" grounds. Hindusim is the only religion that does so.
Christian demoninations are not fixed by birth. These demoninations do not say some people are 'superior" by birth and some are demeanable by birth. They do not fix a rank at birth, like first rank (brahmin), 2nd rank (kshatriya), or inhumanly label a new-born baby as an untouchable (by birth). They are not propagated by 'jaati-dharma'.
Sir, to conclude, i think only some certain 'brahmins' want jaati-dharma to remain. As also some other hindus. They talk against 'casteism' but they actually want casteism to remain. They blame everything, point out fingers everywhere else, but not once look within. And all of that for what - just an image. Or rather a "spritual" image of "greatness" (by birth).
Regards.
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C RAVI
0
Sri Happyhindu ji,
Well said....I liked your posting a lot. Its all very thought provocative.
I am well awake.
That's why I am focusing on the practical and complicated social problems that seems to be out of scope of finding a solution.
We can have revolutionary vision. The hard fact is in most of the cases we fail to evaluate the possibilities of converting our revolutionary vision into reality.
If we open the Vedic schools for all the cast people, do you think that the problem would be solved?
These learned vedic people from other casts (SC/ST/OBC etc) would than start discriminating with their own people (who all have not undergone vedic studies), and probably would come up with their own political party. Might be in the name of - Vaideega Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (VDMK). This party will include all the Brahmins and Non-Brahmins who all are Vedic Scholars.
Obviously, we can not expect that all the people from all the cast will be interested to get admitted into Vedic schools, learn Vedam and become Vedic Scholars. For some cast people it may be impossible to learn even.
Spiritual/Traditional sentiments do exist in a multi cast society and that also takes a substantial role in discrimination.
I have focused on Inter cast marriage to achieve cast dissolutions, because that would be the quickest and easiest practice to eradicate the sense of cast discrimination among ordinary citizens.
The common citizens from so called different cast of the society are living a specific form of life.
If these citizen decides to go for inter-cast marriages, than politicians can not play the games of divide and rule. And the common man will have the sense of respect and recognition among each other irrespective of cast. This may pave a way for a single identity in common as “HINDU” in near future in a slow pace. But the point is how many of us would come forward and how soon?
All the social problems what I have highlighted are the facts with which we are living.
-In offices, we not only bother other's cast but Religion as well. We work with our knowledge and team spirit. That's what is going on officially in every part of the world.
-But the Cast is the thing that gets tagged to a child in India at the time of admission in Schools. Isn't it?
-Is it not the fact that the new generation from all sections of the society start the social life from school days where he/she gets tagged with FC, SC, ST, OBC and all?
-If the child born for an inter-cast couple than what would be the cast identification of the child while admitting him/her in the school? It can be only 1 right??? Either FC or SC or any other. Will that be based on the decision of the couple? If yes, than how can they choose a cast of identification for their child when the couple have married for the sole purpose of eradicating the Cast system?
Else, the schools should not follow the system of cast identification of a child during admission. Than who is going to implement this as a statutory rule in the schools all over India/Tamilnadu
Only a ruling political party can take up the decision in a systematic political way that includes consent by other parties in majority.
Can we imagine that these political parties would accept to implement such a rule? They will not, for their own political cushioning.
In view of my above points, can you come up with some of your own solutions for eradicating the Cast system? So that we can constructively discuss on its feasibility to avoid any sort of back firing.
Long before persians and the colonialists, there was still something called invasions.
Indo-scythians and their allies (all considered barbarians by the shastras) also invaded india, set up kingdoms, and subsequently merged into the peoples of the land we now call India. Indo-Scythians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Let's say we can manage to find out who carries indo-scythian or persian genes today (lets say by genetic testing we manage to find out who originates from central asia or clusters with persian populations), should we ask them to vacate india and go back to central asia or persia? And clean up the heritage they left behind ?
Why, there are hindus (and brahmins too) who do cluster with european populations - i suppose we shd send them back to where their genes originate from as well (??). And clean up their heritage as well.
Agreed we feel a tinge of anger when we see a mosque or church where we should see a temple. But hey, how much of the past can one set right? Wud the outcome be good? And why look at past selectively, meaning only that which applies against muslims and christians alone? Can we not live in peace instead?
Please note: am against aggressive christians and rabid muslims who vandalise hindusim in the present times - but i do not beleive in extending it to all muslims and all christians who do no such thing and simply practice their religion quietly - surely they have the right to practice their religion in india.
To clarify:
I did not say the population of brahmins must not be reduced.
I said everyone's population must not be increased. And yes muslims and christians do adhere to familly planning. Muslims have been waking up to it late, but chrsitians in south india are at the forefront of it (thanks to christian nurses who educate their poor really well).
i think its incredulous to ask people to increase population (no caste, no religion in this) in a country already bursting at the seams with over-population. Strange, really.
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There are already vedic schools or vedic classes run by or held by various organizations like Arya Samaj, Chinmaya Mission, etc. There are also vedic universities like those run by Maharshi Mahesh Yogi. All these institutions take in people irrespective of caste.
But it is only the shankara mutts that represent the so-called orthodoxy. They are the ones that propagate the jaati-dharma. Yes, if the shankara matts open up admissions to everyone, then people cannot claim highs and lows by birth. There won't be ill-will by so-called 'dalits' against so-called 'brahmins'. Once the anti-brahmin sentiment is gone, politicans also cannot make politics out of caste issues. It does solve a lot of things sir.
The TTD has opened its vedic schools to everyone. Mostly it is the so-called 'dalits' (and not the other NBs) who join these schools. The other NBs seem clearly focussed on money. But its the so-called 'dalits' who really need the reprive from the hindu scriptural pov. There are vedic schools in maharashtra too taking in students across all strata. No sir, they are not discriminating against their own people - why should they? And your imagination that they wud even start a political party is really too far fetched.
Yes not all of them want to learn. Their focus is on secualr education and good jobs, esp IT jobs - and they are the sensible ones i think
We dunno if its tuf to learn for 'certain castes". Those who learn, pass. Those who cannot learn, fail to get their certificate. Simple as that. Lets not speculate who is capable of what based on caste.
Children of mixed marriages, as far as i know, enter the caste of the father in the school records.
The only reason why schools ask for caste is for reservations (the system instituted by politicians, not schools).
After changes in the social structure of hindusim have taken place (that is, once caste is no longer birth-based), then the legislation will be forced to review the reservations policy.
Talking abt politicians is useless. Expecting their support is useless.
If changes happen at the vedapatshala-level, then the hindu society will change slowly. Over time, automatically caste politics will disappear.
I have already stated the solutions:
The matts can very well make statements that jaati-dharma does not apply in today's times. They can very well admit students of all castes into vedic schools. They can very well live by example of an all-inclusive society.
happy,
100% correct.
the mutts, in my opinion, have been the upholders of reactionary elements. not too long ago, i think, the puri mutt uttered some vulgarly objectionable words against the rest of hindus.
i happen to know, in the late 20th century, of literally crooks in TB community, who retired, and who somehow walked into influential positons in the kanchi mutt.
such is the calibre of the mutts and their administration.
the kanchi mutt, i think, lost golden opportunities to unify tamil hinduism - at the dawn of the indian independence, when in the spirit of the new born country, they could have, in conjunction with the constitution, called for a new beginning.
again in 1967, on the onset of the dravidian revolution they could have done the same thing. not surprising, for an institution which has been in kanchi for over a millenium, it is so insular, that its impact even on its own surroundings is nil.
compare this with mecca or rome. i think inspite of high sounding words, which are also echoed in this forum, there is a deep sense of absence of human values - that we are all created equal by God, and no amount of arguments, in its ultimate, deny the dignity and respect to each and every person.
it is a shame, that still TBs who believe in such stratification based on birth. it is not surprising, that folks like me, stop practising and just walk away. so what is lost, is not me alone, but my progeny, for i am ashamed to be associated with such a group, which has its branches in toronto too. the good thing, is that the children of the reactionaries, react with vehemance, as these are the ones to marry deliberately muslims or practising evangelicals. somehow things propagated in hate, appears to come around.
thank you.
C RAVI
0
.
Sri Happyhindu Ji,
I think if matts gurus involve into such political/social propaganda, than they would be fixed by politicians in a way that they will loose their identity once for all.
I think, we have witnessed something like that, couple of years before.
Politicians would never make such changes happen. That is the most ironical truth.
So, instead of depending on religious matts (which are into specific activity) and making them meaningless, it’s better for us as responsible Hindus to form a society/organization and start promoting a system that would help eradicating the cast system from India once for all gradually.
Is that possible?
Do some one have a clue?
Myself as a “Hindu”, and as a ordinary member of the society I could think of promoting Inter-cast marriages as the only best tool or a part of some special set up that can help gradual dissolution of cast system in India.
Once inter-cast marriages in common are successfully achieved, than it would be easier to bring changes in political level, as there would not be any objections from any specific groups of the society.
i think sometimes, it may be best, to keep the imagination of what we consider holy places, particularly in the north, just that - imagine what it will be.
so high is the corruption of hinduism, that i have found, that it is almost an inducement to one to lose his faith.
i went to kasi/gaya in 2000. i do not know which made me recoil more - ie the physical filth and dirt in the streets, or the human corruption in the form of greedy priests.
the hindus of mathura, have had since the onset of the british to set things right re the krishna temple. that they have not bothered to do so, is a reflection of the morals and values of our hindu brethren up north.
i, for one, do not buy the arguement, that they have been brutalized by centuries of islam. yes but, for the past 200 years. the north indians are the most casteist, and would even put our own dravidian parties to shame.
very disappointing and discouraging.
What to do sir.
You know what sort of comments i have come across on ' dalits' - here are some edited ones -
'they are stupid',
'they have no culture',
'they are born without a brain',
'they are born wicked',
they are criminals,
they have no values,
they are evil,
'they are root of all crime everywhere'.
'the government gives them reservations, still they cannot pass', 'why does the goverment waste my money as a tax-payer on them',
'these dravida goonda government even pays them until they find a job. someone should kill all those politicians'
the country has gone to the dogs because of them,
etc, etc, etc
These are comment i have heard from my own family members (they are NBs).
So the ones opposed to 'dalits' getting admitted to veda patshalas are not brahmins alone.
My mum even thinks something is terribly wrong with me, she wanted to know what do i get by talking about 'caste'.
But sir, i am young. I know my old folk are not going to live forever. I will be settling in india in near future. I want my kids to grow up in an egalitarian society with equal opportunities for all. I do not want them to learn the kind of hate that the old folk is capable of.
Nor wud i ever teach my kids the kind of hinduism that segregates based on birth. I don't want to put ideas of superiority or inferiority in their minds about the people around them. I want them to be capable of loving all, to have the capacity to give love and the capacity to receive love.
Truly sir, no amount of arguments, can deny the dignity and respect that each and every individual deserves as his birth right.
Let love triumph. Let truth triumph.
Btw sir, kanchi mutt may not be as old as a millenia. Its a lot more recent. You can google and read about some controversies about its origins - i also posted some links in a previous post on this thread. To me, it does not matter how it originated. In the present time, it is here - that is all that matters. And i hope they can create an all-inclusive hindu society. Its a great hope and wish really.
Let us not speculate about politics and politicians.
Let the matts do this on their own accord. There is no loss of identity involved in this. We are talking about a spiritual organization, not Nike, Adidas or such brands and images.
Yes, the politicians will try to prevent it. Or they may try to brag and gain mileage by supporting such a move.
All that matters at the end of the day, is that there is dignity of human life.
And the matts can help make it happen by abolishing the jaati-dharma.
No other institution, can help turn around things, as long as the shankara mutts propagate the jaati-dharma -- because they are the ones that have portrayed and established themselves as the orthodoxy (esp since the colonial times - so much that englishmen have even called hindusim as brahmanism). Methinks, they have brought this upon themselves, literally...
Regards.
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