How can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?

[C RAVI]

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Dear Sri.Prasad, Greetings.

With due respect to your opinion, I don't think it is democratic to shut out a portion of the members from participation. The author of the opening post did not consider the 'why' question with respect to temple visitations. It is always satisfying to do anything if we know why we are doing it.

Cheers!

"why we are doing it?"..That is, why we visit temple?

The answer to this would vary from people to people.

For some

1) It's just a walking/exercise (may be proper & safe roads/streets/beach/parks not available in the surrounding?).

2) It's just a time pass. To meet some people and gossip.

3) It's to get a possible glimpse of the apposite attraction among the youths.

4) It's to pray and pray only repeatedly to pass the exam, without any sort of hard learning/studying.

5) It's to be away from home environment and be in peace to meditate or just sit quitely, leaving behind all the worries for a moment.

6) It's to pray, assuming communicating with the diety, for the sake of peace of mind and expecting grace for the purification of one's own mind and heart.

7) It's to pray and wish all success as per one's hardwork. To pray to diety to protect him/her from unexpected unpleasent circumstances that may foil all his/her hard work and leave him/her stranded.

8) It's to pray and wish for well being of self and among family members and protect them from any sort of unexpected and uncontrolable unpleasant eventualities due errors within or from some outsiders.

9) It's to pray and wish for protection of self and family members from any sort of evil/negative vibrations/influences that may be out of any visible probabilities.

10) It's to pray and seek solace when all practicle, sensible, sincere/honest & ethical efforts did not bring in any positive results. So that one can still remain composed and righteous.

There may be many other reasons as "why to visit temples", that would differ from people to people / from time to time in one's life / from every acquired and rejected perceptions/wisdoms in one's life.


And I strongly believe that we all know "why we need to visit temples", for many of our reasons.


AFA I could sense the Thread Tittle (how can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?) and IMO, there is no need to include "Why to expect kids to visit temples?" As such, Shri Servall had presented his case clearly with out any ambiguity. As well, when his conclusion reads as - "P.S. Needless to say, this question is directed to those that are believers!!", for me it's clear that this thread is intended to receive feedback & suggestions from folks who believe in GOD & Hinduism and cherish visiting temples AND believe that growing children should be encouraged to perceive such belief and ideas.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Chi.Ravi, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #176. In my humble opinion, I think, the dynamics of the situation is missing from your post. I accept one may visit a temple for all the easons and for more reasons shown by yourself. But the question is how do we encourage the youngsters to visit the temples. None of the answers identified by yourself may work with the youngsters. Most youngsters would calmly say, "if going to the temple works for you, then you should go; you should not ask me to go!". In my personal case, it takes about 40 minutes drive to get to the temple. It would be a huge task to rustle up the kids and sundry to make the trip. A good portion of the day is used for this purpose, that is not counting socialising times. Our children sought value for spending that kind of time; it was not justified in their opinion. You mentioned about 'praying' & meditating in majority of the reasons shown. Pray tell me Ravi, why can't you pray at home? Well, that's what happened in my case. Our children found it very comforting to watch me and my wife together chanting prayers in chores; my wife preparing yummy yummy prasadams while chanting the prayers; the posibilty of their taking a meaningful part in the prayers. When we came to Australia, we didn't bring anything to set up a pooja place. It was our son who during one of his trip to India, brought various pictures to make a pooja place set up. He doesn't go near any temple; but he is more devoted than any regular visitor to any temple.

I don't like this post getting too personal. I request you to think about the dynamics of convincing youngsters who grow up asking questions. My children don't think I am an atheist or agnostic or anything like that. As far as they are concerned, they could ask me anytime to chant any prayer; that's it. Once my daughter asked me to chant Rudram.... In the Hindu philosophy, our own body is the temple.

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Chi.Ravi, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #176. In my humble opinion, I think, the dynamics of the situation is missing from your post. I accept one may visit a temple for all the easons and for more reasons shown by yourself. But the question is how do we encourage the youngsters to visit the temples. None of the answers identified by yourself may work with the youngsters. Most youngsters would calmly say, "if going to the temple works for you, then you should go; you should not ask me to go!". In my personal case, it takes about 40 minutes drive to get to the temple. It would be a huge task to rustle up the kids and sundry to make the trip. A good portion of the day is used for this purpose, that is not counting socialising times. Our children sought value for spending that kind of time; it was not justified in their opinion. You mentioned about 'praying' & meditating in majority of the reasons shown. Pray tell me Ravi, why can't you pray at home? Well, that's what happened in my case. Our children found it very comforting to watch me and my wife together chanting prayers in chores; my wife preparing yummy yummy prasadams while chanting the prayers; the posibilty of their taking a meaningful part in the prayers. When we came to Australia, we didn't bring anything to set up a pooja place. It was our son who during one of his trip to India, brought various pictures to make a pooja place set up. He doesn't go near any temple; but he is more devoted than any regular visitor to any temple.

I don't like this post getting too personal. I request you to think about the dynamics of convincing youngsters who grow up asking questions. My children don't think I am an atheist or agnostic or anything like that. As far as they are concerned, they could ask me anytime to chant any prayer; that's it. Once my daughter asked me to chant Rudram.... In the Hindu philosophy, our own body is the temple.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy,

With all due respect to you, let me express some of my opinions..

For me, your above post appears absolutely personal about your family, family/locational circumstances, chocies, belief, knowledge etc. As well you are asking me a personal question (Pray tell me Ravi, why can't you pray at home), that I have underlined and highlighted above in Bold.

May I know what made you to ask me this personal question? Do you claim that, I have expressed here that - I can't pray at home and so I "have" to go to temples only, for my prayers?


Please be noted that every individual are / family is different and every individual are / familiy is in different living circumstances and locations.


We can well express ours and our family members living styles, preferences, logical/rational actions and reactions etc..etc while discussing something to "support" our views and what we follow. There is no wrong in it.


But, raising a totally opposite point/question to that of the clear tittle of this thread and justifying such highlights, just based on what we could personally believe and follow is not at all "Dynamism", IMO. This is what I have highlighted very clearly in my previous post #176.


This thread is clearly asking a solution for a belief/culture/tradition to be followed by the growing kids of parents. From the parents and individuals who feel the same need and can ponder to discuss and share the possible ways and means (irrespective of their possible current situations).

Some parents could make up their mind to be adviced by their children and accept the knowledge of their children and emphasis the need of the question "Why to visit temples?", against the intended thread of an another parent. Some parents may think in the same lines of the OP and discuss & share the ideas to feed the seeker.

In my previous post, I was just justifying that, the need of the question "Why to visit temple", in support of the rejecting / unconsiderate Kids of the needing parents, was not at all intended in OP.

Let me reiterate certain things (that I have expressed in my previous post) to make you clear, because you could think that the dynamic of the situation is missing in my post (I personally have considered my post in line with the intentions of the thread and clear conclusion of the OP) -


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There may be many other reasons as "why to visit temples", that would differ from people to people / from time to time in one's life / from every acquired and rejected perceptions/wisdoms in one's life.


And I strongly believe that we all know "why we need to visit temples", for many of our reasons.


AFA I could sense the Thread Tittle (how can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?) and IMO, there is no need to include "Why to expect kids to visit temples?" As such, Shri Servall had presented his case clearly with out any ambiguity. As well, when his conclusion reads as - "P.S. Needless to say, this question is directed to those that are believers!!", for me it's clear that this thread is intended to receive feedback & suggestions from folks who believe in GOD & Hinduism and cherish visiting temples AND believe that growing children should be encouraged to perceive such belief and ideas.
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[sangom]

Originally posted by C. RAVI @

In my previous post, I was just justifying that, the need of the question "Why to visit temple", in support of the rejecting / unconsiderate Kids of the needing parents, was not at all intended in OP.

Shri Ravi,

Kids today are not like what we were in their age. I have stated in one of my posts that in a foreign country probably only the carrot and not the stick can be used. In my boyhood, parents could scold and compel their children to go to temple. But in the local Padmanabhaswamy temple, there was feast during daytime (after madhyahna pooja till about 4 P.M. and again by 6.30 PM). So children would go to the temple definitely! That was why I suggested that we may think about incentives to the kids.

The reasons which you list out are for adults; children may not be enthused by those.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Ravi,

Kids today are not like what we were in their age. I have stated in one of my posts that in a foreign country probably only the carrot and not the stick can be used. In my boyhood, parents could scold and compel their children to go to temple. But in the local Padmanabhaswamy temple, there was feast during daytime (after madhyahna pooja till about 4 P.M. and again by 6.30 PM). So children would go to the temple definitely! That was why I suggested that we may think about incentives to the kids.

Thereasons which you list our are for adults; children may not be enthused by those.

Shri Sangom,


Even in India, stick can not and infact should not be used to make the kids visit temple. All I believe is, however we talk and suggest, it all depends on what Parents themselves believe and do. Children learn from them in these aspects of Spirituality and accept them in some of their own ways (thats is sweet too), would gradually have their own learned/acquired ways and means towards it as they deem fit, in due course of their growth.

Personally, as a believer, I would prefer kids to involve in these aspects of life and take their own decisions as they grow along. After all each human is different, does not matter how are they related to each other in a realtionship. They grow and learn and parents adopt all the possible ways to shape their personality. Rest, individual life with their own belief/perceptions matters a lot for managing their own life affairs..

 

[sravna]

Dear Sri.Sravana sir, Greetings.

It is not ethically correct to put the onus on the 'devotee's' sincerity. If a pooja/prayer is conducted while seeking some goal or benefit, the benefit should be fulfilled; It is lame to blame the devotee if the benefit is not attained. One can't say visting temples, conducting poojas would always bring benefit. For example, if I conduct a pooja anticipating certain favourable out come, I have the right to blame the pooja if I did not achieve such favourable outcomes. I don't have accept any comment about any lack of sincerity from my part. (For example, if I conduct a pooja seeking a pass in my exam, I should pass; I don't have to accept any comment about my sincerity in conducting the pooja or any comment about my lack of preparation for the exam. If I preapared well for the exam, why should I conduct a pooja?; if I am going to conduct a pooja, sincerely, why should I preapare for the exam? One may say, the pooja would remove any obstruction from attending the exam, but still I have to study for the exam; but, in some countries, the students get an opportunity to defer the exam in the event of unforseen difficulties).

I would think about the visit to a temple as a physical exercise. Bigger the temple, it is better the exercise. One may walk a decent 30 to 45 minutesin total during the trip to the river; followed by breathing exercise; walk to the local temple; walk around the temple on the outer 'praharam'; walk back to home. I was told one should adopt a quick pace doing all these things. This kind of exercise performed at least once a day would reduce DVT risk; stroke risk; improve venous return; improve blood circulation; improve tone of the muscle. In my opinion, this exercise possibility is the 'Why' for the temple visitations.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy,

I only mean that pooja is like any other task . Just as you require sincere efforts for a task to succeed, so doing pooja being a task itself requires sincerity. Pooja is meant to enhance your chance for success. You have to study for the exam just as you have to write the exam to pass.

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Raghy,

I only mean that pooja is like any other task . Just as you require sincere efforts for a task to succeed, so doing pooja being a task itself requires sincerity. Pooja is meant to enhance your chance for success. You have to study for the exam just as you have to write the exam to pass.

Dear Sravna and Other Worshipers:

From the above post I gather that you advocate for both doing pooja AND preparing for the Exams WELL...one alone is NOT sufficient..

I will argue that Pooja has no value; preparing for the Exam well is the ONLY effort needed. And, people have no time to do both well.

Take for example, a good High School student who, nowadays, gets about 6-7 hours of sleep because of school work (home work, projects, music class, athletics etc etc). If you ask that student to allocate about 1-2 hours a day for Pooja and Prayers, he/she will cry and protest. Because time is so very precious for them and most others.

Why do we need 1-2 h a day for Poojas and Prayers? That's what it takes to do it right. According to you, it needs to be done properly with all sincerity.

Here is the achievement of people (as a country or group of people) without wasting time on Poojas and Prayers:

1. Scientifically, Communist China and former Soviet Union are far superior to India. They focus on hard work and achieve better things in life. Most of these Communists don't believe in God and never spend time in poojas and prayers.

2. Most Atheists and Agnostics achieve better things than people who spend enormous time in Poojas and Prayers.

I estimate that there are about 2.5 billion Non-Believing Non-Worshiping people in the world, most of them are doing better than Indians!

Therefore, I hypothesize that Indians (and other worshipers in Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc) waste plenty of time in thinking of God and worshiping God, so much so they don't have enough time devoted in acquiring new skills or improving skills to be more productive to enhance the quality of their life.

Hence about 800 million devout Hindus and about 180 million people of other religious faiths live in abject poverty (earning less than $2 per day, according to The World Bank) in India.

So, what price is Worshiping God, anyway?

 

[ShivKC]

2. Most Atheists and Agnostics achieve better things than people who spend enormous time in Poojas and Prayers.

So, what price is Worshiping God, anyway?

this is yet another proposition on how atheism could bring doom on love.

atheism may view, poojas,prayers,chants as waste of time, where as theism views it as expression of foundational love & communication with god.

look what athesim may say next..

kids let our family not waste time in dinner table conversation or on picnic any more.. rush to study table and achieve.

mothers should not be wasting the time of the child playing with her, and expressing her love, rather should spend the time only of making a career for the child.

this kind of extra obsession towards career & achievement (than prioritizing love) was not new for atheism.

atheism has no answers for poverty, and hence they bet poverty over love, happiness & humanity.

author of mein kampf was one who was more in to his countries economic achivement , than prioritizing love.. so he killed a million of economically unproductive humans, like seniles/handicapped/mentally retarded/enuchs/down syndrome kids/TB patients.

one may argue, this as an exceptional case. but when one give more importance to achievement, than love, a love which starts from love to god and percolates down to family and then to society, it natural the person see's poverty & un productivity as a bane or pain, and tends to resort to similar activities like mein kampf.

this is my worry about atheism!

with that fear in mind, i don't mind having bringing up children,by spending more hours in chanting and doing puja's to god, making them have love and communication with god and leading a normal life, than ending up in a life with their photo's on every post office wall, on their pursuit for economical achievement at the cost of love and happiness. a safe play, indeed.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Chi.Ravi, Greetings.

Kindly allow me to withdraw my personal sounding question to you , please. You are right; I have no reason to pose any personal question to you. I meant to ask "Pray, tell me Ravi, why can't one pray at home?"; but, I slipped there. Sorry.

By the way, not only post #177 but almost all the messsages posted by me in this forum are also based on my personal experiences; based on my family circumstances; connected to the socity in which I currently live. In my opinion, that's the idea of a forum, that is to exchane our views based on our experiences. For your kind information, in the opening post, the author also narrated his personal experiences. I grew up in India too. I have never been asked if I visited the temple or not; nobody ever asked me to go the temple, except for the occassions where I was asked to accompany my sisters- but it was not a 'Godless household' either. Regular chanting was done by my grandmother; neumourous poojas took place on the regular basis too conducted by my mother and by us too. In our household, there was no compulsion though ( I have seen, in two different housholds, my cousins would not get B/Fast until they performed the daily pooja). My point is simple - I wouldn't ask the youngsters to do anything - they will do when they are ready. Youngsters at present are much wiser in comparioson than I was as a teen-ager. They have much more exposer to the media and much more information. In some countries, temples are not closeby either; the youngsters would need transport to get there. They are not going to request to be driven to the temple! Secondly, going to the temple is one more chore for the youngsters. In most cases, as it is, their week-end is eaten away by dance/singing/tutorial lessons; forced socialisations, since they have to accompany their parents when they go out in the week-ends. One has to stand in the youngster's shoes while analysing this subject.

The 'why' question is important to analyse the subject. I don't really believe anyone can meaningfully contribute to this thread without analysing the 'why' question. In fact, I have not seen any meaningful, workable suggestions made by anybody towards the 'how' question. Sri.Sangom suggested 'carrot' method; I don't think it is very feasible. Most fridges are full of left over food/sweets/goodies; what carrot can be given over that?

I have not posted any opposing views at all. One has to analyse the subject. This thread is started because, the subject is worth analysing; when analysing a subject, we have to consider 'pros' and 'cons'. As a contributing member of this forum, I am bringing my experiences forward in connection to the subject in question.

I did not say one should not go the temple; I did not say one should discourage the youngsters from visiting the temples. All I said was we have to analyse 'why' question properly before asking the youngsters to visit temples regularly.

Chi.Ravi, your message in post #176 did not take the above points in consideration. That's why I said, your post missed the dynamics of the situation. Hope my above explanation is more clearer.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

this is yet another proposition on how atheism could bring doom on love.

atheism may view, poojas,prayers,chants as waste of time, where as theism views it as expression of foundational love & communication with god.

look what athesim may say next..

kids let our family not waste time in dinner table conversation or on picnic any more.. rush to study table and achieve.

mothers should not be wasting the time of the child playing with her, and expressing her love, rather should spend the time only of making a career for the child.

this kind of extra obsession towards career & achievement (than prioritizing love) was not new for atheism.

atheism has no answers for poverty, and hence they bet poverty over love, happiness & humanity.

author of mein kampf was one who was more in to his countries economic achivement , than prioritizing love.. so he killed a million of economically unproductive humans, like seniles/handicapped/mentally retarded/enuchs/down syndrome kids/TB patients.

one may argue, this as an exceptional case. but when one give more importance to achievement, than love, a love which starts from love to god and percolates down to family and then to society, it natural the person see's poverty & un productivity as a bane or pain, and tends to resort to similar activities like mein kampf.

this is my worry about atheism!

with that fear in mind, i don't mind having bringing up children,by spending more hours in chanting and doing puja's to god, making them have love and communication with god and leading a normal life, than ending up in a life with their photo's on every post office wall, on their pursuit for economical achievement at the cost of love and happiness. a safe play, indeed.

1. If our youngsters long for God and Religion, then I don't have problem. They want to be Theists, and that's their Civil Right.

2. But, my view is, most youngsters are force-fed of God, Religion and Rituals whether or not they show any love or interest. I call them the reluctant, very vulnerable youngsters who, given a chance will not do any poojas or prayers on their own. They will never think of God or go to Temples/Churches/Mosques on their own.

I did all that because my mom was forcing me to do it. Otherwise, she would cry for hours... I was emotionally cornered by her... once I left home at age 16/17 to College, I started seriously questioning all that I was doing for so many years... and then I became a self proclaimed Atheist...I never looked back!

That would definitely happen to most of the force-fed youngsters, I bet.

3. There is a fallacy propagated by Theists that Belief in God and doing pooja and prayers make one a "Good Person" whatever that means.. They show love for humanity, they are happier and healthy etc. etc. This is very FALSE. A FICTION.

My position is it depends on their inner personality.. A Theist who spends several hours in poojas and prayers can be a very "Bad Person", very hateful individual not useful to the Society, and an Atheist can be totally opposite of him in character and behavior.

There are billions of examples to substantiate this.

4. The fact some "Temple Builders/Administrators" in this Forum believe that very many youngsters don't go to temple, unlike their parents, is a testament that our youngsters are becoming RATIONALISTS, not believing in the power of God and the utility of poojas and prayers.

That's a good trend, IMO.

Wait & watch.

ps. However, I support the practice of going to temple for the sake of music, dance, art and architecture. In other words, a temple can be a place of Cultural Activities to meet friends, dates and others - to run Pattimandrams etc on issue of the day - considering Religion as a Cultural Link to the Distant Past of History: to recall and rejoice of the various rituals our forefathers DID in the name of God and Religion... which would be an anathema to most true Believers of God, I concede.

 

[guruvayurappan]

neatly explained .those people will do suriyanamaskarams after loosing their vision .telling in their words if their eye is ok they will not waste time in giving the care for the eyes and will go to doctor for repairing after loosing he vision.their main motto is money in the name of carrier and no place for love and service

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear yamaha !
did you got the answer for your son's question, "Ma.. are we Shiva worshipers? If we are, then why do we worship the lingam as God?"
if so kindly post the same

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Chi.Ravi, Greetings.

Chi.Ravi, your message in post #176 did not take the above points in consideration. That's why I said, your post missed the dynamics of the situation.

Cheers!

No no Shri Raghy, you are absolutely wrong to conclude with your above statement and as such, it is not withstanding.

In the name of dynamism I "personally" didn't want to make this thread an another irrelevant thread leading to opposite direction. I am a theist and I had and till now involving myself in spirituality in some or the other ways, as possible, without any compulsion from my parents. Just as you had in your childhood and many alike.

Every members here have their right to express their opinion in favor or in against of the thread tittle, to have the more productive discussions. I was only re-iterating the relevancy of the OP and that the question "why to visit temples" is irrelevant. The opening poster is a believer and wants kids to visit temples as an habbit, as comfortable. And expecting suggestions from the believing parents as how kids can be convinced to visit temples.

Just to show off my dynamism here, in public, I would not be taking an opposite stand, against my own personality.

When this thread and any other threads are based on belief systems namely God/Religion/Spirituality/Temples etc, theists would express their views in these favor "honestly". Just because some members are non believers or having a different mental make up to the topic under discussion, it is not sensible, IMHO, to belittle the opposite views by performace evaluation of a poster.

Do you mean to say that members here who all are theists/believers of God/Religion/Spirituality are lacking dynamism? Do you mean that all such posters, who all hold on religion/god/spirituality, living a pragmatic life in this scientific world are lacking the insight and thus could not contribute to the threads dynamically?


Shri Raghy,

You are much senior to me and I need to learn a lot from you. I have no complaints against "you" in my above statements. What all I expressed above are to express my views in common to all the members here, on this platform.

 

[zebra16]

Sri Nara

.

Narayan, I have highlighted a portion of what you said originally that is not factual. If I am mistaken, please provide a reference to the post wherein such a comment was made.

I tried a quick search, but could not locate the message. I do not want to hold up the reply. So please consider that portion {how stupid the earlier acharyas} as "withdrawn temporarily" till I locate and furnish you the reference.

The "frogs in the well" comment was made by Shri Sangom sir. He gave his reasons, one may agree or disagree, but any challenge to that statement, and what you call "radical" ideas must be presented in real time. You mentioning these here is the reason why I think you wanted to muzzle ideas that you consider radical.

The real time response concept is a novel one. Who decides the real time? What is real time? Is it the concept of the postings in this forum that any response should be only on real time basis - otherwise they are time barred? If someone misses the message or does not get the full purport of the message in the initial reading, does his taking up the matter after a lapse of time would be meaning that he is muzzling? What about newcomers who have joined the forum and come across the messages on archives? Cant they question without being muzzlers? Are the archived messages new generation "inerrant texts" that cannot be questioned?

It is strange that one can take up for re-evaluation 3000 years old vedas, 1500 year old bhashyas, 1000 year old vartikas etc. (when the seers and writers are long dead and gone) but one referring to a six months or so old message should open his actions to be classified as a possible muzzler.

Further, as Shri Sangom has observed, there is no equivalency between the "either" side you are referring to, one side presents arguments about certain ideas, and the other side presents ad hominem attacks.

As regards ​ad hominem attacks, I have already said that I am responsible for my actions but I cannot account for the actions of all the theists. But then it is not as if the "otherside" has always been a knight in the shining armour. The moderator having to use his scissors to "edit" out some portion of their messages stand in testimony that they were not always sparkling gold as it has been tried to be portrayed.

In the context of the constant din of wild accusations, when you come in with the declaration like "cows come home" and more "radical ideas" are not what people want, why must that not be taken as an attempt to muzzle? Why is that not a taunt you are referring to here.

In a discussion forum I feel the din and noise , allegation and counter-allegation would remain always, so waiting for the din to settle down may mean waiting perennially without posting. or the poster should risk himself to be called a "muzzler" for not having not acted on real time basis.

I have given you statistical evidence that "atheism" is not such a hot a topic to the members joining TB.Com. I have adduced nothing more, nothing less. Does that mean (i) I want the topic to be shut out.............NO (ii) does that mean I want the non-believers to be shunted out........NO. (iii) Is turbulence expected in discussions?........ YES. (iv) Was taunt intended by me while posting the message... NO according to me. But you are free to form your own opinion.

What would you consider a taunt?

This one is rather easy. The following is one variety of it:

As usual you have avoided giving an answer, par for the course

The source of the text can be found here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-we-encourage-our-kids-go-temple-more-17.html
Message #164

Narayan, I think all of us must welcome vigorous debate and eschew name-calling, gratuitous put-down and the like. Telling us that our "radical ideas" are not what people want is a tautology that can only be taken as an attempt to muzzle .

I am in complete agreement with the quoted text, except for the last sentence. I have given you "evidence" for lack of interest of members, if you want, you are welcome to refute it.

As regards tautology, words like ad hominem, infinite regress, tautology, logical fallacy etc. are almost always thown about rather freely in discussions or debate.
(may be I should say "par for the course"?)

Regards,

narayan

 

[Nara]

....I tried a quick search, but could not locate the message. I do not want to hold up the reply. So please consider that portion {how stupid the earlier acharyas} as "withdrawn temporarily" till I locate and furnish you the reference.

Narayan Thanks again for bothering to search for the message.

The real time response concept is a novel one. .... Cant they question without being muzzlers? Are the archived messages new generation "inerrant texts" that cannot be questioned?

Now, earlier, you said I was letting my imagination run wild. Is it your turn now ? Of course anybody can raise questions at any time. But, if it is done when the discussion is ongoing then one would have the benefit of context and will be able to respond properly. I also think it is unfair to raise criticism after the context is forgotten and in a different thread and context. Well, life is not fair, so, I am not complaining, just pointing out, that is all.

As regards ​ad hominem attacks, I have already said that I am responsible for my actions but I cannot account for the actions of all the theists.

I am not holding you responsible for it either, it is the impunity with which certain theists go on throwing mud that is lamentable. You raise moderator "edit" as though they are equivalent to the constant din of personal put downs, no you are way off the mark with this false equivalency. There are many reasons for these edits that are not ad hominems.

I have given you statistical evidence that "atheism" is not such a hot a topic to the members joining TB.Com.

Your post did come across as a demand to stop with all this atheist talk because none of the new members joining the forum expresses an interest in it. If your intent was not to muzzle, I will take your word for it, no problem.

This one is rather easy. The following is one variety of it:

See, this is the problem, I don't see any of these as taunts. This is why this taunt charge is a vague one. In contrast the logical fallacies I am pointing out are objective. We can examine and rationally determine whether what I am claiming as ad hominem or straw man are indeed as I say they are.

As regards tautology, words like ad hominem, infinite regress, tautology, logical fallacy etc. are almost always thown about rather freely in discussions or debate.
(may be I should say "par for the course"?)

If "par" for my course is to avoid logical fallacies and point them out when used against me, then I welcome it and take your comment as a complement. But I know you didn't mean it that way because you say I am throwing these words around rather freely. Well, then tell me why I am throwing these words without cause and we can talk about it and if you show me I was wrong I will apologize. But, what you are doing is, well, rather freely throwing the above charge .....

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Dear Chi.Ravi, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #188, please.

In this thread, the subject is about encouraging our youngsters to visit temples often. The stake holders are the parents/elders and the youngsters/particularly, teen agers, specifically teen-agers born/growing up overseas (possibly USA and other similar countries). I don't know about others, but personally I would approach the issue from the younster's angle. I would focus more on the youngster's point of views. I would try to think in the youngster's shoes. As an elderly person, I already know what is the expected outcome desired by the elders. This is known as considering "தேச கால வர்த்தமாணங்கள்". That's what I meant when I said "dynamics of the situation". Unfortunately, the post I said lacked the dynamics did not consider the youngster's point of view. When one stack holder is missing from the equation, the dynamics naturally miss from such considerations.

No no Shri Raghy, you are absolutely wrong to conclude with your above statement and as such, it is not withstanding.

In the name of dynamism I "personally" didn't want to make this thread an another irrelevant thread leading to opposite direction. I am a theist and I had and till now involving myself in spirituality in some or the other ways, as possible, without any compulsion from my parents. Just as you had in your childhood and many alike.

Every members here have their right to express their opinion in favor or in against of the thread tittle, to have the more productive discussions. I was only re-iterating the relevancy of the OP and that the question "why to visit temples" is irrelevant. The opening poster is a believer and wants kids to visit temples as an habbit, as comfortable. And expecting suggestions from the believing parents as how kids can be convinced to visit temples.

Just to show off my dynamism here, in public, I would not be taking an opposite stand, against my own personality.

I have no reason to be critical of your views. At the same time, I openly say what I observed from your views. I did not ask you to change your views either. Asking to consider all the factors involved in the subject matter is not working against the interest of the thread. Considering the full dynamics of the situation is not a 'show off' either; that is the proper method.

Do you mean to say that members here who all are theists/believers of God/Religion/Spirituality are lacking dynamism? Do you mean that all such posters, who all hold on religion/god/spirituality, living a pragmatic life in this scientific world are lacking the insight and thus could not contribute to the threads dynamically?

Initially I was only talking about one your post only. I was not talking about others here. I was sincerely contributing to the thread. Unfortunately, may be due to my own insufficiency, it was not seen as such. This quoted question is not required. But having faced that question, here is my answer - yes. If any and all of the messages in this thread that have not considered the psyche of the teen-agers who grow overseas have not addressed the dynamics of the situation.

We want our youngsters to be brilliant. We want them to be high achievers in every chosen field. We should expect them to be very inquestive too. We should be prepared to be grilled by them. Here is the first question - "Why should I visit temple at regular intervals? I am very satisfied with the prayers I do at home. What is so special at the temple, please?" I have not seen many messages asking these questions or answering these questions.

I am not only asking Sri.Ravi now; I request everyone to think, please.

When this thread and any other threads are based on belief systems namely God/Religion/Spirituality/Temples etc, theists would express their views in these favor "honestly". Just because some members are non believers or having a different mental make up to the topic under discussion, it is not sensible, IMHO, to belittle the opposite views by performace evaluation of a poster.

Sri.Ravi, I don't consider your views as 'opposite views'. I have no desire to 'belittle' your views or anyone else's views. I am talking from my practical experiences. If you think I am not respecting your views enough, I should say, you are mistaken. I already posed the question which would be posed by any self respecting teen-ager.

My above explanations may not clear my stand - it had not during my last couple of tries; why should it now? But, I am more than happy to explain my position. By the way, once again, I don't belittle anyone's view.

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

Thank you for taking the pain and sparing your time to respond to my post, Shri Raghy..

I am glad to find your post in right spirit.

My only contention was, why not to give considerations to needy parents with some belief and some sort of efforts in this aspects ( making kinds visiting temples) and help children develop some discipline and attitude, irrespective of where the children are growing, in India or anywhere outside India.

I strongly believe that there are many things in a day to day life where parents should have some grip (offcourse in a loving and convincing manner) on their children atleast upto certain age, for better.

As such, I personally did not find the contrary question - "Why to make kids visit temple?" in efforts towards educating parents and favoring growing kids, as reasonable.


That is all.

 

[Yamaka]

dear yamaha !
did you got the answer for your son's question, "Ma.. are we Shiva worshipers? If we are, then why do we worship the lingam as God?"
if so kindly post the same

Dear Guruvayurappan:

That question was put to my wife, who answered, " Kannah, yes, we are Shiva worshipers. We worship lingam.. that's our tradition. I don't want to talk about it any further!"

She herself does not know why lingam is worshiped.. and she says, "there are all sorts of ugly, obscene explanations... I don't know what's correct and what's not.. is very disgusting and I am very angry and upset... I don't want my son know about my discomfort".

Personally, as an Atheist, I just don't care..I don't know the REAL reason why a lingam is worshiped in a Temple from pre-Vedic period since 3000 BCE, when the majestic Nataraja is there!

I want knowledgeable people in this Forum address the question truthfully.

Wait and watch.

 

[rishikesan]

Dear Yamaka/ Guruvayurappan/ Ravi & all I juse visited Google site & typed ' Shiva Lingam " Lot of meanings/ explanations are seen . You may go to the site & there after continue useful discussion , so that we can unanimously understand the helplessness.
A. Srinivasan

 

[Nara]

...I don't know the REAL reason why a lingam is worshiped in a Temple from pre-Vedic period since 3000 BCE, when the majestic Nataraja is there!.

Y, the majestic Nataraja was most likely not there at those early times.

The phallic symbol is obscene only in the modern times, in many early cultures it was seen as a symbol of fertility. Roman houses had it prominently carved or displayed at the entrance to their homes. A phallic god was part of the Greek pantheon of gods.

All primitive peoples had a fixation with male and female reproductive organs. Tamil bards, including Azhvars often describe damsels as one with wide vagina. So it is not surprising that lingam in the reproductive act was considered sacred and was worshiped. What is surprising is it is continued to be worshiped to this day, and conjured up explanations are offered to cover the embarrassment of such worship.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Yamaka/ Guruvayurappan/ Ravi & all I juse visited Google site & typed ' Shiva Lingam " Lot of meanings/ explanations are seen . You may go to the site & there after continue useful discussion , so that we can unanimously understand the helplessness.
A. Srinivasan

I will request people like M/s Nara, Sangom Sir, Krish Sir, Subbudu Sir, HH and others to talk about this issue if they want to:

The potential audience being the 14 year old boys of Hindu parents in Houston, NY, LA, Chennai, Mumbai, Calcutta etc. in 2011!

They expect to hear, most probably, the REAL reasons, religious rationale etc.

They don't like any "white wash"! Lol.

Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Guruvayurappan:

That question was put to my wife, who answered, " Kannah, yes, we are Shiva worshipers. We worship lingam.. that's our tradition. I don't want to talk about it any further!"

She herself does not know why lingam is worshiped.. and she says, "there are all sorts of ugly, obscene explanations... I don't know what's correct and what's not.. is very disgusting and I am very angry and upset... I don't want my son know about my discomfort".

Personally, as an Atheist, I just don't care..I don't know the REAL reason why a lingam is worshiped in a Temple from pre-Vedic period since 3000 BCE, when the majestic Nataraja is there!

I want knowledgeable people in this Forum address the question truthfully.

Wait and watch.

Dear Sri.Yamaka, Greetings.

I faced a similar question from our children too. I openly explained about the symbol of creation & fertility. Siva Lingham in its total is in 3 parts - லிங்கம், யோணி & ஆவுடையார் where the top phallic portion is lingam, the middle portion is yoni and base is aavudayar. My children were satisfied by my answer. Still wondered, why should such symbol is worshipped; well, I calmly said to them, in Ancient Indian religions did not see sex and procreation as a sin, but saw that as an important function; further, they must have given equal importance to man & woman in the past. I also showed them the picture of 'Artha Nari' to reiterate that. Our children know about world religions and the devotion to fertility concepts. Initially they found it funny, but later on it was not strange anymore. (By the way, there is a purana story that says, Siva & his consort were cursed by Brigu Muni for not receiving him properly since they were immersed in their intimacy. Through that story, our childen realised, in some circumstances, a man could curse Siva and that was not seen as blaspamy either!).

Some more information here - Lingam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri.Yamaka, Greetings.

I faced a similar question from our children too. I openly explained about the symbol of creation & fertility. Siva Lingham in its total is in 3 parts - லிங்கம், யோணி & ஆவுடையார் where the top phallic portion is lingam, the middle portion is yoni and base is aavudayar. My children were satisfied by my answer. Still wondered, why should such symbol is worshipped; well, I calmly said to them, in Ancient Indian religions did not see sex and procreation as a sin, but saw that as an important function; further, they must have given equal importance to man & woman in the past. I also showed them the picture of 'Artha Nari' to reiterate that. Our children know about world religions and the devotion to fertility concepts. Initially they found it funny, but later on it was not strange anymore. (By the way, there is a purana story that says, Siva & his consort were cursed by Brigu Muni for not receiving him properly since they were immersed in their intimacy. Through that story, our childen realised, in some circumstances, a man could curse Siva and that was not seen as blaspamy either!).

Some more information here - Lingam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers!

Raghy,

I think the lingam has only two main parts, lingam and yoni, the sign of ultimate procreation; what you refer to as 'aavudaiyaar' is only a slight elongation of the yoni which may be imagined in actual human physiology, but this improvisation helps drainage of the abhishekam water with ease.

Incidentally, it should also be clear as to why 'abhishekam' and more particularly, milk abhishekam is seen as most appropriate (pleasing to siva in the lingam). For the victorian prudery we people in India still exhibit on many aspects of man-woman social contacts even, these will have to look anathematic, imo.

 

[rishikesan]

Dear Friends, It is pleasing to read the explanation made to children &7explaining the make-up of Shivalingam & its parts . The above write-up could be the clear explanation. We may leave this aspect for now & suggest, proceed further on the Topic proper.
A.Srinivasan

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Nara, Raghy and Sangom:

Thanks for your kind response.

I thought what we see is the phallus and vagina in the "Lingam", but I also learnt that it was "the interpretation of the West, whose brain is in between their legs" by people like Raju in this Forum. Therefore, I was not quite sure of the REAL explanation.

Now I get it.

I talked to my son about this. He said "Most of the Hindu students in my high school knew it as a "sex act" in full glare, and were giggling with other female students as to what the Meenakshi temple in Houston is showing... and I was not really sure of what was depicted in the Lingam.. that's why I asked Mom, who did not want to dwell on it, I understand her reluctance".

He continued, "My question is, Indian Society is very prudish about sex, sexuality and boys meeting girls in private etc..then how could they openly show a sex act in the temple and that too worship it in open? It's very paradoxical and very confusing! I read that Lord Siva is a God of Destruction and not Creation which Lord Brahma does! Then why worshiping Siva having sex with his Sakthi in the open? And, why can't they remove this Sex Act and replace it with the Dancing Nataraja?"

My wife thinks it's vulgar to show a Sex Act in the Temple, and worship it so openly.

She thinks there got to be a more Decent Explanation than this!

I leave this matter here, and maybe, others may choose to dwell on this matter of extreme importance to our youngsters growing up in big cities in the US or in India.

Cheers.



ps. My kids now fully grown up (girl 27, boy 22) are not Temple Goers regularly.. they go with their Mom whenever she goes, which is once in 3-4 months these days! Yamaka is an Atheist.