How can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?

[ShivKC]

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uncle Yams, my request. kindly come out of this..

this situation reminds me of what an atheist michael gorbachev once said "certain people in united states are driving nails in to this structure of our relationship, then cutting of the heads. So the soviets must use their teeth to pull them out"


if you wish to stay away in discussing with few, thats a wonderful idea, than digging about past.

btw, uncle, as usual, pls come back to your favourite topic 'Rs.150/Day

 

[tks]

To Whoever This May Concern:

Here is the Solution from my side for the "clique" between myself and Mr. KRS -

As I wrote to Mr. Raghy today, I will NOT engage Mr. KRS in any debate or argument on any topic. He may choose to play his role as Moderate as appropriate.

I expect, in return, that he will not barge into any conversation that I may have with other members here.

Peace to ALL.

Dr Y -

I don't expect you to agree with me, however let me say what all this ranting comes across to me.

I am sure you do not like the idea of being in a debate with someone who could also possibly act in the role of a moderator as well.

However it seems to me that picking an issue with Dr KRS on this point (which may be a legitimate concern to some extent in your mind) is actually a red herring . Let me share with you what I think.

Dr KRS is also a scientist and did engage with you very respectfully and started challenging you on your assumptions and belief systems when you were making your usual claims.

Enormous critical thinking is required to engage in a debate when there is no way out by diverting attention to other irrelevant areas.

I suppose you could ignore engaging with Dr KRS but then you cannot anymore get away making claims that cannot be supported by logical reasons since Dr KRS in my view has a way of getting to the heart of an issue very well. I think that is the real issue.

I have not seen Dr KRS take a moderation stance to support his logical debating points since his points make his case - he does not need any special privileges to make his case. If you disagree you have to make a case using logic and reasoning.

In my work career spanning many decades I had the need to fire few people with PhDs for the larger good of the organization I was leading. Critical thinking and character strength are not obtained by any formal education including a PhD or a career in research. I have had the privilege of working with a few people who did not even have a college degree but proved that they can solve complex problems. CEO or Oracle or Steve Jobs did not even have college degree and they I am sure fired many PhDs since PhD training in many fields do not prepare one to think critically.

While I respect researchers in many fields of science for what they do, they are not in my view anymore specially endowed than most people in the world.

Some may profess to embrace science and technology but if they do they have to show their conviction by logically dealing with a debating issue using the scientific approach &reasoning. Otherwise they are no different than a person of faith similar to those self proclaimed Brahmins who think they are superior because they were born in a family and learnt to say a few verses as blah blah propagating feudal & harmful belief systems. Those calling themselves scientists hide behind the title many times but do not approach any problem with a scientific mind set.

As I said in the beginning you will not agree what I have said assuming you did read the whole post. If you do read and if you think you will listen, the best way in my view to move forward is to take this challenge: Engage with Dr KRS in the debates you were previously engaged in about your belief system in Science and Technology. That will earn more respect in my view from the forum members rather than picking a childish fight with Dr KRS around "free speech".

I know you will not agree, so I wish you all the best in life while you continue to wait & watch LoL

Regards

 

[Yamaka]

Yamakaji,

There is no practical solution to this. A moderator (KRS, myself or someone) cannot be removed as a moderator for that period of time where he/she participates.

End of it, a moderator is also a member.
And as a member he is entitled to share his views. Just because he is a moderator does not mean he is exercising his powers to gain an undue advantage.

And whether you trust him or not is your decision. But at the end of it, i would say do not see him as a moderator, see him as another member. The moment you see him as a moderator participating in discussions is when it complicates things.

Beyond this reasoning out, there is nothing that can be done.

Dear Praveen:

Thanks for your kind reply. I see your POV on this.

I have moved on..

I see that you have edited and removed my post 646. That's fine with me.

I wrote that in response to Mr. KRS's demand for proof of his perceived abuse of power as Moderator.

I hope the Forum is at peace, and all of the Member Writers engage in robust writing and making this a vibrant Community of Original Thought.

Dissent is in our blood, though. Lol

Regards.

Y

 

[prasad1]

The thread says:
How can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?

:focus:

 

[ShivKC]

The thread says:
How can we encourage our kids to go to temple more?

:focus:

Yams, i second what prasad1 says. thats one reason, i never actively responded to your posts earlier, in this thread.

may the 150rs topic, we can discuss well in 'god exists' thread, and sounds more relevant too, and would not demolish the sentiments of those who are taking up about bringing up their children visiting temples.

imagine how it would be like, in a thread which says 'how can we encourage our kids to grab 'Rhodes Scholarship' and some one responding that 'its all <edtd - KRS>'.

kindly exit this irrelevant thread, and get in to a common place.

i tell you what, your posts are vibrant and always gives me a curiosity to look in to it..

may be 3G, or kanimozhi or poverty .. Uncle,we have helluva lot of subjects to discuss. why hanging out here?

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri tks Ji,

I enjoyed your post above for obvious reasons!

However one correction - I am not Dr. KRS, just KRS. I never got my doctorate in Physics, though was quite near it - family considerations did not allow my completing - had to switch gears. I was a student research scientist though , if that counts.

Regards,
KRS

 

[BostonSankara]

To inspire children to WANT to go to temple more we have to give them an experience there that is a befitting experience for a child. We must make the temple into the cultural centers that they once were but not only for adults for children as well. If a child is to desire to be somewhere then they must have a place there in which they can express themselves and communicate. This is why I believe that it is of the highest importance for temples to operate an educational balavihar where the mystery of opaque shlokas are removed by translation and understanding. Things like coloring books filled not only with pictures of dieties and our mythology but also explanations which tie them back to upanishads etc. Children cannot be expected to love and cherish things they don't understand. This leaves responsibility on us as adults to educate ourselves as well so that we can be adequate gurus to the children. On some level a curricula for such things could be developed including devanagri and tamil alphabets, the stories and histories of the people which make up majorities of the temples populations (meant to preserve and reinforce knowledge of the cultures that make up the temple's membership), and really just generally provide an environment in which to engage children actively in their learning of our religion. The whole point of all this is that when the children return upstairs to view the deities and shrines they won't just be knocking their temples blindly but rather reverently as they recognize concepts of energy and chakras and god within being honored by paying reverence to god without. In my opinion we must somehow convey to them what all of this actually means to us if we expect them to value it like we do. We do a lot of these things here in America. It takes a lot of work and the Indian community is really just now getting to the size that can sustain initiatives like these. Only time will tell if they are successful. It will certainly need to be a community effort if it is to work. I have no idea how these things work in India but when there was a child in my life she was inspired to go and participate at the temple because everything was always explained (to the best of my abilities) and it was always treated as a place to be celebrated. Breaking coconuts, selling camphor, participating in group puja.... kids LIKE that stuff!

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Dr. tks:

As always it's a delight to read your posts. I always look for some nuggets of wisdom in your posts, although we may belong to "different Group" )) in this Community! lol

My response given in bold letters where ever I differ from your observation, assertion etc.

Dr Y -

I don't expect you to agree with me, however let me say what all this ranting comes across to me.

I am sure you do not like the idea of being in a debate with someone who could also possibly act in the role of a moderator as well.

However it seems to me that picking an issue with Dr KRS on this point (which may be a legitimate concern to some extent in your mind) is actually a red herring . Let me share with you what I think.

Dr KRS is also a scientist and did engage with you very respectfully and started challenging you on your assumptions and belief systems when you were making your usual claims.

Oh, I did not know that he is a fellow Scientist himself. I was under the notion he was a "business man" of some sort... Minor point here.

Enormous critical thinking is required to engage in a debate when there is no way out by diverting attention to other irrelevant areas.

I suppose you could ignore engaging with Dr KRS but then you cannot anymore get away making claims that cannot be supported by logical reasons since Dr KRS in my view has a way of getting to the heart of an issue very well. I think that is the real issue.

I have not seen Dr KRS take a moderation stance to support his logical debating points since his points make his case - he does not need any special privileges to make his case. If you disagree you have to make a case using logic and reasoning.

In my work career spanning many decades I had the need to fire few people with PhDs for the larger good of the organization I was leading. Critical thinking and character strength are not obtained by any formal education including a PhD or a career in research. I have had the privilege of working with a few people who did not even have a college degree but proved that they can solve complex problems. CEO or Oracle or Steve Jobs did not even have college degree and they I am sure fired many PhDs since PhD training in many fields do not prepare one to think critically.

I really wonder why you bring this issue of PhDs here! I have never used it in my arguments, except briefly once I mentioned to dear Saidevo when we discussed about Mind, Ego, I-ness and Brain etc.

Most of this look very irrelevant to the topic of discussion here!
While I respect researchers in many fields of science for what they do, they are not in my view anymore specially endowed than most people in the world.

Some may profess to embrace science and technology but if they do they have to show their conviction by logically dealing with a debating issue using the scientific approach &reasoning. Otherwise they are no different than a person of faith similar to those self proclaimed Brahmins who think they are superior because they were born in a family and learnt to say a few verses as blah blah propagating feudal & harmful belief systems. Those calling themselves scientists hide behind the title many times but do not approach any problem with a scientific mind set.

As I said in the beginning you will not agree what I have said assuming you did read the whole post. If you do read and if you think you will listen, the best way in my view to move forward is to take this challenge: Engage with Dr KRS in the debates you were previously engaged in about your belief system in Science and Technology. That will earn more respect in my view from the forum members rather than picking a childish fight with Dr KRS around "free speech".

I know you will not agree, so I wish you all the best in life while you continue to wait & watch LoL

Yes, I am a very passionate advocate of SET since it is what buttering my bread, and I am fully immersed in it on a daily basis. I am willing and able to debate/argue with any Member Writer as long as there is a level playing field, period.
Regards

Regards.

Peace to ALL.

 

[Yamaka]

Yams, i second what prasad1 says. thats one reason, i never actively responded to your posts earlier, in this thread.

may the 150rs topic, we can discuss well in 'god exists' thread, and sounds more relevant too, and would not demolish the sentiments of those who are taking up about bringing up their children visiting temples.

imagine how it would be like, in a thread which says 'how can we encourage our kids to grab 'Rhodes Scholarship' and some one responding that 'its all <edtd - KRS>'.

kindly exit this irrelevant thread, and get in to a common place.

i tell you what, your posts are vibrant and always gives me a curiosity to look in to it..

may be 3G, or kanimozhi or poverty .. Uncle,we have helluva lot of subjects to discuss. why hanging out here?

Dear Shiv:

I brought the topic of Poverty in India in this Thread because of your previous post regarding Rs.150/day

For continuity sake, we may be forced to discuss various topics in a Thread, which may look to others very odd.


However, my answers to your question somehow goes to the heart of "Temple" worship, though!

"Temple going" "God Exists" are all very close cousins to me, LOL.

Cheers.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Yamaka Ji,

You do not need to respond to this. But I can not let go a couple of comments you made, without response for the benfit of our members.

1. SET does not belong to any group. It belongs to all of humanity, even though people who believe in Atheism often misappropriate SET as their sole property. Almost all major religions have fostered and nurtured the scientific inquiry from the start, even though the standards got developed over time. Atheists did not invent science.

2. India is 'poor' today because of many reasons with religion as a least possible cause. This type of reasoning is akin to observing when all the folks are wearing red shirts and some of them eat bananas, to say, all bananas are eaten by people, because they all wear red shirts! When there are very obvious reasons available through research and reasoning to explain the poverty, to say that the religions are responsible for such a poverty is not logical.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

...1. SET does not belong to any group. It belongs to all of humanity, even though people who believe in Atheism often misappropriate SET as their sole property. Almost all major religions have fostered and nurtured the scientific inquiry from the start, even though the standards got developed over time. Atheists did not invent science.

Dear brother KRS, I wish you don't brush an entire group with a broad brush. I think of myself an atheist for all intents and purposes and I hope what I say is not taken as a representation of the view of all atheists.

I also note your subtle use of the word "believe" as in "believe in Atheism" with an upper case A to boot. This is not necessary for you to make your point. Refusing to believe in a personal god is not a belief. I am ready to believe if you will show me, like the motto of Missouri you recently cited !!

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Nara Ji,

My first comment about SET was a respose to what Sri Yamaka said:

Mr. KRS represents an ideology of the Past: He loves to protect the Gurus and Seers, and all old traditions of the past.

I represent an ideology of the Present & Future standing on the power of logic, rationality, and Science, Engineering & Technology.

Okay, your point is well taken. SOME atheists do so.

On the second point, in my humble opinion. one can say that I do not not not believe that God exists or say I believe that God does not exist. So, what is the difference?

Regards,
KRS

Dear brother KRS, I wish you don't brush an entire group with a broad brush. I think of myself an atheist for all intents and purposes and I hope what I say is not taken as a representation of the view of all atheists.

I also note your subtle use of the word "believe" as in "believe in Atheism" with an upper case A to boot. This is not necessary for you to make your point. Refusing to believe in a personal god is not a belief. I am ready to believe if you will show me, like the motto of Missouri you recently cited !!

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[KRS]

Dear bro Nara Ji,

You said:

But one thing is certain, religion does not offer any boon that cannot be had by any other secular means, and, unfortunately, worse, it makes otherwise nice people behave badly. For example, if we are to live according to the religious edicts of Brahminism, then young widows must shave their heads and lead a "spiritual" life, like those in the movie Water, that too for their own good, what a tragedy!!!

As I say often, religion has been more a bane than boon to humanity.

I was totally agreeing with you till I came across the above.

Again, world changes, mores change, civilizational norms change. What seems like barbaric acts today, in their origin probably have had very idealistic moorings. This is where I differ from you. You think that the old customs were based on unethical and brutal acts committed by a few in the name of religion for their own nefarious purposes. I do not agree with this assumption. I am sure at the time families sent their young widows to a place depicted in 'Water', it was done because of the way the communities were organized and what they thought was in the best interest of the girls. They did not have the thought process of a widow marrying again in those days. They thought they were doing the humane thing. Imagine a family sending a daughter to a far away place like that, in addition to losing their son-in-law! Do you think that must have been easy?

You seem to only focus on these anachronistic aspects of a religion that is catching up to an ever changing world, especially in an accelerated phase in the last 150 years or so. You forget all the solace and morality that it afforded countless individuals from the beginning of life.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

... You forget all the solace and morality that it afforded countless individuals from the beginning of life.

Dear brother, I am not saying religion did not offer any solace to anybody, it did. My point is, (i) the solace religion offered could be had without religion, after all, you go back 2000 to 3000 years, you would see a vibrant environment with atheistic worldviews such as Kapila's Sankhya, Buddism, Jainsim, promoting ishta praapti and anishta nivriti, as the goals. There was no mention of Bhakti towards ishta devata of any kind, and (ii) taken on the whole, the humanity would be better off without organized religion such as we see all around us than with them.

I don't want to judge the mores of yesteryears as evil, or condemn the folks, but when you see people like Shri kalyanumar, fondly remenecsing about mottai-pattis I feel like puking. In my younger years I have seen several mottai-pattis in my family, and that is enough for an atheist like me to cry out, thank god those days are gone!!!

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[BostonSankara]

You know what I wish? I wish the moderator would ban anyone refusing to stay on topic in this thread from this thread altogether because as far as I am concerned all I see are undercover Christians and Atheists doing anything they can to keep a conversation about sharing our religion with the next generation from taking place. Clever but kind of a weak tactic as well.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

How can we encourge our kids to go to temple more

We should make an earnest effort to collect them in groups, if possible,
just like a school tour once in three months or at periodical intervals with
the family members. The temple visit can be made as a Childhood pleasure trip
to encourage them. We ought to have some curriculum for the children
there and also prepare the children to have a positive influence in the
temple visits. We must try to create a feeling of emotion in them with a
nurturing environment (in the temple garden or near the temple tank, etc.)
There we should arrange some social and intellectual activities paving a way
for curiosity, imagination, self-esteem in them. They should also be taught
the concept of caring for others etc. Besides they have to be given a
practical practice to play independently and collectively in religious Quiz
programmes. Thus we should develop in them a passion for the temple visit
on holidays, giving them to good special foods just like Prasads served in
the temple premises and narrate stories of Godly features. Such periodical
visits will develop an interest in the children to go to temples on vacation,
etc, whenever they get an opportunity.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[BostonSankara]

I completely and totally agree and as a great example I recently ran across I ask you to take a look at this:
http://www.svbf.org/fly_Retreat_magazine.php

I was impressed and contacted them to let them know.

We should make an earnest effort to collect them in groups, if possible,
just like a school tour once in three months or at periodical intervals with
the family members. The temple visit can be made as a Childhood pleasure trip
to encourage them. We ought to have some curriculum for the children
there and also prepare the children to have a positive influence in the
temple visits. We must try to create a feeling of emotion in them with a
nurturing environment (in the temple garden or near the temple tank, etc.)
There we should arrange some social and intellectual activities paving a way
for curiosity, imagination, self-esteem in them. They should also be taught
the concept of caring for others etc. Besides they have to be given a
practical practice to play independently and collectively in religious Quiz
programmes. Thus we should develop in them a passion for the temple visit
on holidays, giving them to good special foods just like Prasads served in
the temple premises and narrate stories of Godly features. Such periodical
visits will develop an interest in the children to go to temples on vacation,
etc, whenever they get an opportunity.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[prasad1]

You know what I wish? I wish the moderator would ban anyone refusing to stay on topic in this thread from this thread altogether because as far as I am concerned all I see are undercover Christians and Atheists doing anything they can to keep a conversation about sharing our religion with the next generation from taking place. Clever but kind of a weak tactic as well.

I like your comment about staying on the subject of the thread.

 

[KRS]

Dear bro, my response in 'blue':

Dear brother, I am not saying religion did not offer any solace to anybody, it did. My point is, (i) the solace religion offered could be had without religion, after all, you go back 2000 to 3000 years, you would see a vibrant environment with atheistic worldviews such as Kapila's Sankhya, Buddism, Jainsim, promoting ishta praapti and anishta nivriti, as the goals. There was no mention of Bhakti towards ishta devata of any kind, and (ii) taken on the whole, the humanity would be better off without organized religion such as we see all around us than with them.
I am a great believer in the concept that one can not go against nature. I believe it is the nature of man that some theory comes along to fulfill the need of the day. Take a look at all religions and how they started. It was because of the human need at that time. Just the fact that Samkhya is no more in India, Buddhism has kind of degenerated from Buddha's original teaching etc., should tell you that there is the second law of thermodynamics is operative here. So new religious concepts come along and people connect to them if they are relevant. I personally think that our vedantic principles fit in perfectly for an individualized world of today. Yes, I am not also an admirer of mass organized religious practice for today - it makes one an automaton. But that is my own view.

I don't want to judge the mores of yesteryears as evil, or condemn the folks, but when you see people like Shri kalyanumar, fondly remenecsing about mottai-pattis I feel like puking. In my younger years I have seen several mottai-pattis in my family, and that is enough for an atheist like me to cry out, thank god those days are gone!!!
Well my mom became a widow when she was 35. Thank God, they did not dare to shave her head off. I think Sri Kalyankumar's views are a minority view in our community. Our community is also changing and has changed in lots of respects.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

Regards,
KRS

 

[renuka]

You know what I wish? I wish the moderator would ban anyone refusing to stay on topic in this thread from this thread altogether because as far as I am concerned all I see are undercover Christians and Atheists doing anything they can to keep a conversation about sharing our religion with the next generation from taking place. Clever but kind of a weak tactic as well.

Dear Boston,

Bold statement..but I clicked like anyway..we have lots of participants here Hindus,Muslims,Christians,Buddhists and Non Believers too.Some who openly declare their religion and some uncovered or discovered.

Keep posting dear.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Boston Sankara Ji and Sri Prasad Ji,

Please calm down. When a person opens a thread, he has two options.

1. Be on top of the thread and shepherd it to his liking, because he/she has the sole control of the direction of the thread.

2. Start it and just let it go - which was what done here. Let the Author say his piece and redirect.

If that is not done, I am sorry, none of us have any control over it meandering

Regards,
KRS

 

[BostonSankara]

Dear KRS Ji,

My main reason for posting that is because I often see (and have been a victim of) something we used to call "cross-thread posting" which is where arguments from one or two parts of the board get argued all over the board and things that are said in other threads begin to migrate and get quoted in new threads. It makes for a harsh environment is what I guess I am trying to say.

I completely understand where you are coming from when you say it is a thread author's responsibility to direct the thread but I would hate to see the board turn into a complete "every man for himself" type of environment as well. In regards to what I have seen you go through as a moderator I will say that I do not think it is exactly fair and I say that on the fact that the limited time I have been around you have seems impartial. I also believe that you deserve to have an opinion and voice it. As long as you don't abuse your power in any way I see no issue. I do think that discussion boards have a thread model for a reason and that the organizational structure it propagates lends itself to healthier modes of discussion and that ensuring that is indeed a moderators job. Please do not think that I mean to do any more here than state my opinion. I am absolutely in no way trying to imply that I am telling you how to perform your job.

-
Sankara

 

[tks]

Dear Dr. tks:

As always it's a delight to read your posts. I always look for some nuggets of wisdom in your posts, although we may belong to "different Group" )) in this Community! lol

My response given in bold letters where ever I differ from your observation, assertion etc.



Regards.

Peace to ALL.

Not sure what group I belong to ! Good to hear from you ..

1. Theism or Atheism (rather their loose translation in Sanskrit) is not defined by belief in a personal God in Vedic teaching.

I am neither a Theist nor a Atheist..

2. Being immersed in Science itself does not necessarily mean that a person uses scientific approach in reasoning. It is possible for one to be a scientist (and this statement has not in reference to anyone) and be approaching it like a religion. There are people that are steeped in a tradition and think they are close to their God but do all the so called ungodly things.

3. So in any forum of this kind the only yardstick is the power of logic and reasoning in making a case.

4. You may say Science will allow one day man to be immortal ! That is a belief system and has nothing to do with logic or observation.

5. You see in all these years a study of science leading to any inventions have not helped create new laws of Physics or new laws of any kind. Inventions and discovery are nothing but expressions of the laws that already pervade the universe.

Why can't man create laws one day? Well for one we ourselves are product of a subset of those laws. The possibility of our existence as we understand was possible by a subset of laws (a sperm and egg coming together etc, a law governing what statistical systems do etc).

A phenomena that we are, appearing to manifest in space and time and made possible by a subset of laws cannot create new laws that transcend those subset of laws. There are mathematical theorems in logic to show why this is not possible.

By the way I am not calling myself theist and making these statements.

If you truly embrace science and logic in your debating style, and are truly committed to understanding truth without any agenda then you will discover that many of the claims you make are not supported by these very logical analysis and expressions of natural laws.

 

[KRS]

Thank you Sri BostonSankara Ji.

If this thread veers off too much in to a direction, let us say, connection between religion and poverty, then of course I will ask the person who started that idea to create a new thread.

But small diversions add spice to a thread though, no?

Regards,
KRS

 

[tks]

Dear Sri tks Ji,

I enjoyed your post above for obvious reasons!

However one correction - I am not Dr. KRS, just KRS. I never got my doctorate in Physics, though was quite near it - family considerations did not allow my completing - had to switch gears. I was a student research scientist though , if that counts.

Regards,
KRS

So it is KRS, AbD (All but thesis) .. that is close - you are a scientist in my mind due to the power of reasoning you employ here and by admitting what is in the realm of your belief system

PS: Somehow I find adding ji somewhat strange to me though it is a fine usage.. We could also use Avl next to a name (in short for KRS Avargal - KRS அவர்கள்)

Regards