Heirarchy of 21st century Brāhmanas

[happyhindu]

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The rest may be downgraded to sudras and, just as we had "kshatropeta" brahmins once upon a time (as per HH), we will have "sudropeta" brahmins now onwards!

Small correction sir. Kshatropeta brahmans is not "as per me", it is as per some texts like some puranas, which authors like Priyatosh Banerjee have written about. That infact makes me wonder who were the non-kshatra, purely brahmans alone (as those dedicated to ritualism with no role as kshatras).

Anyways, if we follow orthodoxy truly, then those who crossed the ocean to live overseas are already shudras, whether they like it or not.

Regards.

 

[valli]

Dear HH

Anyways, if we follow orthodoxy truly, then those who crossed the ocean to live overseas are already shudras, whether they like it or not.

Is it only 'those who crossed the ocean to LIVE overseas are already shudras' or 'those who crossed the ocean (to live or visited and came back to India) are already shudras'?!

I think both those categories are shudras! Isn't it, dear HH!

Very kind regards

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH



Is it only 'those who crossed the ocean to LIVE overseas are already shudras' or 'those who crossed the ocean (to live or visited and came back to India) are already shudras'?!

I think both those categories are shudras! Isn't it, dear HH!

Very kind regards

Valli dear, am not sure, afaik so far, i heard those who cross an ocean and come back must do prayaschitam (to revert back to brahman varna), otherwise they will continue to be considered shudras. Sangom sir will be able to answer this query better.

 

[valli]

Valli dear, am not sure, afaik so far, i heard those who cross an ocean and come back must do prayaschitam (to revert back to brahman varna), otherwise they will continue to be considered shudras. Sangom sir will be able to answer this query better.

My dear HH

AFAIK, I have not heard or seen any one doing any prayaschitam on coming back from overseas!

All I have seen is them opening the suitcases and distributing gifts and bragging about how their son or daughter is living a very, very good life over there!!!

Now I have a doubt - so brahmins can do anything out of the rules and either they do prayaschtam or not they automatically get back to their brahmin status! Good! Oh, infact how nice and convenient!


Kind regards

 

[happyhindu]

My dear HH

AFAIK, I have not heard or seen any one doing any prayaschitam on coming back from overseas!

All I have seen is them opening the suitcases and distributing gifts and bragging about how their son or daughter is living a very, very good life over there!!!

Now I have a doubt - so brahmins can do anything out of the rules and either they do prayaschtam or not they automatically get back to their brahmin status! Good! Oh, infact how nice and convenient!


Kind regards

Valli dear, it is simply not possible for anyone to follow orthodox scriptures completely and throughly...not even for the orthodoxy in saffron clothes themselves. If we do, then we must go back to stone age type of living or not mingle with anyone at all. All that is not possible in the present-day world. Which is why i think orthodox ideology is an empty sack that has already become defunt, but is stil being held on to whatever reasons maybe by some miniscule sections of people. Nobody in secular life is following such things.

In those days, people were bereft of entertainment venues, no computers, no TV, no movies, no electronics / electricals of any sort....so maybe they had time to do all sorts of rituals to make a social statement, much like how people wear Gucci or Prada to show off social class in these times. The other form of entertainment, across all strata, led to population explosion !! lol..

You know Valli, my mother tells me, if you don't do so and so ritual, then something bad will happen....i know of some people who wake up at 4 am shower in cold water just to do agni pooja and set up the gas stove...then there are people who have great importance to threads like karadiyan nombu....all these descriptions are from NB households, so you can imagine how much not just Bs but also NBs are stuck with rituals as some sort of *extremely* important feature of life....i do like rituals, the simple ones, but cannot do elaborate ones and that too on daily basis...Times have changed, what say you dear?

 

[valli]

Dear HH

Which is why i think orthodox ideology is an empty sack that has already become defunt, but is stil being held on to whatever reasons maybe by some miniscule sections of people.

You are lucky to see a miniscule sections of people withholding it, unfortunately, as a girl, born in a brahmin family, I see a macroscule (I don't bother if it is the right opposite sense or not - to those who wish to point out!) section of people still withholding to it right to this date!

Thanks for your replies, dear!

Kind regards

 

[renuka]

Valli dear, am not sure, afaik so far, i heard those who cross an ocean and come back must do prayaschitam (to revert back to brahman varna), otherwise they will continue to be considered shudras. Sangom sir will be able to answer this query better.

I have a doubt here..Ravana was a Brahmin and he lived in Lanka..I am sure he has crossed the ocean several times as he used to even go to Kailash..so is there really anything as crossing the ocean you lose your caste stuff?

I feel I wrote once in forum that may be crossing the ocean and losing our caste meant that once we cross the ocean of samsara we "lose" our caste cos we are one with God and hence discard the bodily caste tag.
I wonder??? Stand corrected though.

 

[happyhindu]

I have a doubt here..Ravana was a Brahmin and he lived in Lanka..I am sure he has crossed the ocean several times as he used to even go to Kailash..so is there really anything as crossing the ocean you lose your caste stuff?

I feel I wrote once in forum that may be crossing the ocean and losing our caste meant that once we cross the ocean of samsara we "lose" our caste cos we are one with God and hence discard the bodily caste tag.
I wonder??? Stand corrected though.

Arrgh am throughly confused now :doh:

I suspect in Ravana's time such rituals did not exist....but let me check and get back Renu dear...

 

[valli]

I have a doubt here..Ravana was a Brahmin and he lived in Lanka..I am sure he has crossed the ocean several times as he used to even go to Kailash..so is there really anything as crossing the ocean you lose your caste stuff?

I feel I wrote once in forum that may be crossing the ocean and losing our caste meant that once we cross the ocean of samsara we "lose" our caste cos we are one with God and hence discard the bodily caste tag.
I wonder??? Stand corrected though.

Hey Renu

I always love the way you come around anything philosophically and yet contribute to 'X rated thread' and 'Kuthu songs'!! One wierd lovable person!

 

[renuka]

Hey Renu

I always love the way you come around anything philosophically and yet contribute to 'X rated thread' and 'Kuthu songs'!! One wierd lovable person!

Dear Valli,

You know you are not the 1st person to say that the weird part I mean.
No one really guesses what I can be up to!!!LOL

Yesterday I had a patient who always comes here and she saw me wearing a Rudraksha mala on my neck.I like to wear Rudraksha mala most of the time..a nice cute one.
And she asked me "Doc why are you wearing this?? for fashion I presume? You dont look like the sorts who will even believe in God."

I didnt reply her..actually the reason I wear it cos when I am free I take it off and do a Japa when I have free time.
I didnt tell her the real reason cos I didnt want her to get a heart attack since she assumed I might be an Atheist!!

 

[prasad1]

Prasad,

When did You and I become Brahman? Brahman means the highest, the expanding, Infinite. We can't even be very mobile, after 45 years, with joint pains and tendonitis, and can't even sense/mind control ourselves, how did we become the powerful Brahman??

Wrong association, (You, I, we) are all attributes of the body. If we associate with the Atman (Brahman) then these problems are of the body not Us.
I little adwaita philosophy. LOL

 

[prasad1]

Well said! But let me embellish on points 4 and 5. This is solely my experience in the US. I know India is different.

In many temples here, there are a few full-time priests, but there are also a few part-time Brahmins (as you mention) who assist the priest on evenings/weekends. Some wear the full formal garb of a priest, but others just western regular clothes. They chant some mantras, hand over dravyas for abhishekam etc.

So I personally haven't seen much of an attitude from these weekend brahmins. They seem to help the pujari and devotees somewhat selflessly. Now I understand someone may not believe in reciting some verses in Sanskrit or in pouring milk over a stone idol, but for those who do, what's the harm in helping them out?

I do agree that Brahminical attitudes are stronger in India.

Oh Biswa, I agree wholeheartedly with you.
I even offered to come for the "lunch" but no takers. LOL

 

[happyhindu]

Renu dear,

Reg post # 32.

I feel you can get your answers from this blog (have not cross-checked the content though)...but overall looks like the prohibition comes only from the Dharmashastras / Smrithis. Since the Smrithis are fairly recent texts in the chronology of literature, we can possibly say such taboos were non-existant in Ravana's time.

Regards.

 

[amala]

My dear HH

AFAIK, I have not heard or seen any one doing any prayaschitam on coming back from overseas!

All I have seen is them opening the suitcases and distributing gifts and bragging about how their son or daughter is living a very, very good life over there!!!

Now I have a doubt - so brahmins can do anything out of the rules and either they do prayaschtam or not they automatically get back to their brahmin status! Good! Oh, infact how nice and convenient!


Kind regards

Dear Valli,

You know Brahmins are just சராசரி மனிதன்s, just average normal human beings. I may be wrong but I'm sure they don't want to be put on some pedestal. So do please forgive them for being so naughty and having the audacity to brag and give gifts and not doing prayaschitams!

 

[sangom]

If this were to be really true, then I would have seen this first in the Patent Office rather than here.

Does this require a patent?

 

[Nara]

... I may be wrong but I'm sure they don't want to be put on some pedestal.

Amala, they have not given the chance to let others put them on a pedestal, IMO, they perforce occupied the pedestal and won't decamp.

Anyway, as for prayascittam, you are right, most Brahmins do not care for such nonsense, they have other important things to worry about, career, making money, etc., more concrete endeavors.

However, for the orthodox, i.e. temple priests, Matham kainkaryaparas, crossing the ocean means they can never return to their old occupations. To even join their goshti they have to undergo prayascittam that includes, among other tings, consuming panca kavyam in a ritual manner.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

...So I personally haven't seen much of an attitude from these weekend brahmins. They seem to help the pujari and devotees somewhat selflessly. Now I understand someone may not believe in reciting some verses in Sanskrit or in pouring milk over a stone idol, but for those who do, what's the harm in helping them out?.

Biswa, I have seen these people up close and personal. I do agree there are a few who are really offer service in a selfless way, starting from cleaning toilets, etc. My good friend in Chicago goes to temple every weekend and helps out in the kitchen, serving people, cleaning up, etc. I am not referring to them.

Unfortunately, I have also seen many #4 and #5, both in India and the U.S., many more than those who do selfless service. As far as I have seen, and at the risk of seeming immodest let me assure you I have seen a lot, these are people who flaunt, not serve.

In the U.S. these weekend pretend Brahmins (#4 and #5) are allowed to enter Garba Griham to help the pujari, but not others? Anyone without a poonal must satisfy their urge to selfless service outside the Garba Griham, but those who masquerade as Brahmins are allowed the privilege of entering the sanctum? This may seem irrelevant to the main point, but those who restrict their service only to the Sanctum do so, IMO, to flaunt their Brahminhood, not to offer selfless service to the pujari.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

Valli dear, am not sure, afaik so far, i heard those who cross an ocean and come back must do prayaschitam (to revert back to brahman varna), otherwise they will continue to be considered shudras. Sangom sir will be able to answer this query better.

in the 19th century 'the moonstone' by wilkie collins, there are 3 brahmins who travelled all the way from india to England, to retrieve the moonstone which was on the head of the idol of the moon god. The novel ends with the Brahmins retrieving the priceless stone from England, and returning to india, have the jewel consecrated, and the three split to three different directions. According to the practice of that time, the three have lost their brahminness, are condemned to wander bharat varsha forever and never to see each other’s face again.

Btw. I would recommend moonstone to any history buff. The novel starts with east india company’s defeat of tippu sultan at seringapatnam, the moonstone theft, which itself haidar ali stole from the temple at kumbakonam, the intrigues in England, the Indians arriving and chasing the stone, finally retrieving it and returning to india. Exciting stuff!

 

[Nara]

....and like the proverbial காயம் வைத்த சொப்பு, it will continue to linger even if one is not conforming to brahmin way of living 99.999%! (and I think that will explain some members here getting rather uneasy and irritated to read plain truths.)

Yes Sangom sir, I couldn't agree with you more. It is very difficult. This feeling has been nailed into our psyche and is difficult to remove it like பசுமரத்தாணி. However, I submit to all rationally inclined members, it is possible, it can be done. Please try.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Yes Sangom sir, I couldn't agree with you more. It is very difficult. This feeling has been nailed into our psyche and is difficult to remove it like பசுமரத்தாணி. However, I submit to all rationally inclined members, it is possible, it can be done. Please try.

Cheers!

It is not that hard. One does not have to 'look inside' either. One has to look at the other person as a 'human being' first. There is no need to even know the other person's caste or creed. It is not that hard; I am sure a majority of persons are doing it already in most instances. But the 'brahminical way of living' like maintaining a vegetarian diet, consuming only prasadams offered in pooja, following few rituals in one's private space etc. are harmless. One doesn't have to give up his/her rituals to see others as equal human beings. It is not hard at all.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

...But the 'brahminical way of living' like maintaining a vegetarian diet, consuming only prasadams offered in pooja, following few rituals in one's private space etc. are harmless.

Raghy, what you state is not "brahmnical way of living", it is not exclusive to Brahmins and not all Brahmins live this way, even some of the orthodox ones.

Cheers!

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear tks !
it is written as a fun . but i could measure your inner heart feeling for the state of brahmin community

 

[Raghy]

Raghy, what you state is not "brahmnical way of living", it is not exclusive to Brahmins and not all Brahmins live this way, even some of the orthodox ones.

Cheers!

Dear Sri.Nara, Greetings.

What I meant was, if some of the brahmin consider vegetarian diet, some daily rituals etc in their private space, a 'brahminical way of living', such practices may not be harmful at all. Only the important requirement is to see others equally as human beings. I know, the above mentioned practices are followed by almost all Isckon followers, almost all saivaites and a large portion of NBs too. I just mentioned them as simple examples. No, not all brahmins live that way; I am including them in my discussion either; I am only mentioning about some persons with ethics. I see everyone just as human beings which also include decent human beings who consider themselves as 'brahmins'.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Biswa, I have seen these people up close and personal. I do agree there are a few who are really offer service in a selfless way, starting from cleaning toilets, etc. My good friend in Chicago goes to temple every weekend and helps out in the kitchen, serving people, cleaning up, etc. I am not referring to them.

Unfortunately, I have also seen many #4 and #5, both in India and the U.S., many more than those who do selfless service. As far as I have seen, and at the risk of seeming immodest let me assure you I have seen a lot, these are people who flaunt, not serve.

In the U.S. these weekend pretend Brahmins (#4 and #5) are allowed to enter Garba Griham to help the pujari, but not others? Anyone without a poonal must satisfy their urge to selfless service outside the Garba Griham, but those who masquerade as Brahmins are allowed the privilege of entering the sanctum? This may seem irrelevant to the main point, but those who restrict their service only to the Sanctum do so, IMO, to flaunt their Brahminhood, not to offer selfless service to the pujari.

Cheers!

Those who are or look more orthodox than the local average brahmin, is sure to feel that he is nearer to god than the rest, useless fellows.

In our temple in my colony my friend was one of the office bearers and president of the managing committee also by turns. (there is a set of people who are always in the managing committee and play sort of musical chairs. Since no case of defalcation or gross corruption, losses to the temple have so far turned up, the aam aadmi just does not bother!).

This friend expired about two years ago but he had this habit of jutting his neck right into the garbhagriham, as if to show his closeness to the deity or the deity being close to him. He also felt that he deserved some kind of 'muthal mariyaathai' in all matters relating to the temple. Such is the wonderful result of orthodoxy in some people!

 

[kunjuppu]

It is not that hard. One does not have to 'look inside' either. One has to look at the other person as a 'human being' first. There is no need to even know the other person's caste or creed. It is not that hard; I am sure a majority of persons are doing it already in most instances. But the 'brahminical way of living' like maintaining a vegetarian diet, consuming only prasadams offered in pooja, following few rituals in one's private space etc. are harmless. One doesn't have to give up his/her rituals to see others as equal human beings. It is not hard at all.

Cheers!

dear raghy,

Can you please explain, why the religiosity of living, is identified by, in this day and age, as ‘brahminical way of living’? perhaps you have been brought up to understand this, I can understand. But you have been in OZ for several years now, and do you still feel, that such religiosity as you defined, is ‘brahminical’ ie denoting as belonging to a particular caste?

Is it not possible, for all castes, including dalits, to practise such?

Recently I read in a blog, from a NB lady. She went to this temple, and as we all know, most of us, throw some coins into the archakar’s plate when we receive the prasadam (viboothi, kungumam & flowers or Perumal thoppi on head).

My attitude towards this, is I would rather give a little extra to the archakar than put it in the hundi.

This blogger had the opposite view of mine. she always avoids archakar donation, as she feels these are salaried by the HRCE (she is in tamil nadu) and she believes money in the hundi goes for temples upkeep. That is her prerogative. But her plaint, was the last time when she went to the temple, she did not donate to the archakar, and was bypassed the prasadam giving, which she has detailed here.

It makes painful reading and I am very embarrassed to belong to a priestly class which has inbuilt ‘brahministical’ feelings as expounded here. What do you say?

gurukkal

this is what I mean by brahminical practices as viewed by NBs. Almost every NB I know has some bad experience in their lifetime brahmins. Do you think they are all exaggerating? Or making much ado about nothing?

What would we have done in such circumstances? I know I have the brahmin kalai and always get respect in the temples. Sometimes to my own embarassment, when I am offered prasadams, out of line (it happened in pittsburgh perumal temple a few weeks ago).