God Omnipotent. Really?

[Nara]

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Well this is what i think when Goddess Ganga comes to my mind:

• Ganga jadadhara gowri shankara girija mana ramana....
• joothajada me ganga dhari.....

I have answered your question....technically...

No Renu, this does not answer anything, and you know it. In the context of what we are discussing please tell me whether it is alright for goddess Ganga to be worshipped given she mercilessly murdered seven new born babies.

Cheers!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear Nara I feel your missing the point There are definite medical indications for therapeutic abortion This will be suggested by the doctors when necessary But stretching that as means of family planning is what now the issue is As DrReunukakarthkeyan pointed out they are all irresponsible when so many simple method for family planning (Safe Sex the Current parlance) available across the road even in teashops 24 X 7 why complicate this issue with surgical procedure which may lead to complication even under experts hand. Wasting the limited infrastructure and human resourses in a crowded hospital for this. Condom may cast a rupee. Can you imagine the cost of any surgical procedure even if it is free in Govt. Hospitals plus cost of post operative care! Some one else has to bear the cost Prevention is the best. Easy, cheapest ,do yourself procedure No medical aid needed Your argument is Get cold I have drugs. Please do not get me wrong this is not a moral issue. You seem to be up in arms for a wrong cause. Jambu:laser:

 

[Iyest]

Dear Iyest, I was the one who cited Brahman. You can address me directly. I am willing to discuss this further if you so wish.

Not you. I have seen and heard about patients quoting the scriptures in their attempt to justify abortion. I often ask the same questions to them.

If the pregnant woman happens to be a jeevan mukta and terminates her pregnancy, would that be immoral? If so, why? !

Sorry, I don't wish to waste time and energy in endless hypotheticals. Let the jeevan mukta worry about the question. As far as I know NO jeevan mukta has come as a patient to my wife.

A jeevan mukta should know perfectly well that all this is just adhyasa. !

An ordinary mortal like me cannot instruct what a jeevan mukta should or should not do even if she visits as a patient.

Lord Sri Krishna says jeeva cannot be killed, only body.

It was not the jeeva that screwed around in any case.

why should abortion be a moral issue for a third person?

Yes, which is why I ask my wife to remain as a third person and let such people face the consequences of their actions.

 

[Nara]

.... You seem to be up in arms for a wrong cause.

Dear Dr., You seem to think every pregnant woman who wishes to terminate her pregnancy is just careless and stupid. I am sure there are some who fit this description. But to assume everyone is, is a misunderstanding.

I cannot accept that women take this thing casually, I just don't. Given the status of women in Indian society, blaming women for abortions is very sad.

Cheers!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear Nara
Again a misunderstanding on your part The question is not about women You need a partner for sex. Who is blaming the women? The partner could have used Condom One explanation for the partner not going in for condom was this "We do not enjoy sex with rubber on" Abortion On Demand is what you want and preferably free Go and demand this in Appollo You will know the cost

 

[Nara]

...Yes, which is why I ask my wife to remain as a third person and let such people face the consequences of their actions.

Dear Iyest, But as a doctor she would not be a third person. Turning people away from a legal medical procedure, approved by the profession, purely on personal moral grounds is a harsh thing to do. In such cases it is the poor who suffer. The rich women, who are more likely to have had sex for their own pleasure (which is great, I have no problems) than the poor, will have no difficulty getting the care they need. The poor women, who are more likely to be treated as a toilet by their men, will suffer if they are turned away because of some doctor's chosen moral qualms.

You objected to bringing Brahman and scripture into the picture. I gave some arguments why that is not such an unreasonable thing to do. Now you don't want to waste your time. Alright, I will leave it at that.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Dear Nara
Again a misunderstanding on your part

Dear Dr. I misunderstand lots of stuff, but what is needed to make babies, I do understand that, I have made a couple myself, and would have made lot more but for the snip and cut -- sorry too much detail?.

I also understand that when it comes to abortion it is the women who have to have it, I am not aware of any man on the table having an abortion .

I am sure there are at least some rich women who go to Apollo Hospital and get the procedure. But the women who have nowhere else to go other than government hospitals are very unlikely to have had great sex without condom for their own pleasure.

Abortion on demand is not the issue dear Dr. The issue is whether we trust women to make the right decision for themselves, even poor women.

Cheers!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear Iyest, . Turning people away from a legal medical procedure, approved by the profession, purely on personal moral grounds is a harsh thing to do. In such cases it is the poor who suffer. The rich women, who are more likely to have had sex for their own pleasure (which is great, I have no problems) than the poor, will have no difficulty getting the care they need. The poor women, who are more likely to be treated as a toilet by their men, will suffer if they are turned away because of some doctor's chosen moral qualms.

I think as doctor we also have some rights But Correct legal Interpetion SC will decide if needed . The right to practice will have the corollary right not to practice.or includes right not to practice also Jambu

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear cut -- sorry too much detail?.

I also understand that when it comes to abortion it is the women who has to have it, I am not aware of any man on the table having an abortion .

I thoght you are misunderstanding the issue I think now you are refusing to understand Have you ever heard of Vsectomy for men on table Jambu:laser:

 

[Nara]

I thoght you are misunderstanding the issue I think now you are refusing to understand Have you ever heard of Vsectomy for men on table Jambu

Dr. Jambu, I want to trust women to make the right choice for themselves without somebody else moralizing. When they make that choice, I want to respect her and support her whatever that choice may be.

Thank you...

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

I Thought you are misunderstanding the issue I think now you are refusing to understand Have you ever heard of Vasectomy for men on table Jambu:laser:

Now at least see the reality. The numbers will show the family Planning is targeting women in some pretext including the arguments you have put forth Men participation practically zero. Vasectomy probably done in the ratio 1: 10000 You want to burden women with one more procedure for the same You concern for poor women seems to be sham & misplaced Jambu:laser:.

 

[Nara]

You want to burden women with one more procedure for the same You concern for poor women is sham முதலை கண்ணீ்ர் .

Really, how did you figure this Jambu? You hardly know me and yet you can see right through my concern as just a sham. Very sorry sir, let it be. All I can say is the views I express are genuine and I am always willing to give respectful hearing to other people who disagree with me.

Cheers!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Sorry if i had hurt you with apology I have edited that posting

 

[Nara]

Sorry if i had hurt you with apology I have edited that posting

No sir, you did not hurt my feelings at all. There is no need to apologize on that count.

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

Dear Iyest, But as a doctor she would not be a third person.

A third person is one who did not create the karma which was the issue you brought up.

Turning people away from a legal medical procedure, approved by the profession, purely on personal moral grounds is a harsh thing to do. !

That is your opinion that you believe to be valid. Doctors have their freedom and they can't be forced to do this or that just because the patient has the money to pay for it. More so in cases to cover up their misbehaviours that they simply want to hide from society.

In such cases it is the poor who suffer. The rich women, who are more likely to have had sex for their own pleasure (which is great, I have no problems) than the poor, will have no difficulty getting the care they need.!

Suffering is universal and not restricted to rich or poor. People must face the consequences for their actions, rich or poor. You are not well informed. Even all private doctors do not perform abortions for money.

You objected to bringing Brahman and scripture into the picture. I gave some arguments why that is not such an unreasonable thing to do.

They were not arguments. Just irrelevant hypotheticals and what if situations. There is no end to it.

 

[Nara]

Suffering is universal and not restricted to rich or poor. People must face the consequences for their actions, rich or poor.

Wow, tough crowd we got here!!!

I wish all of you not to have any problems in your lives, lest you will have to be tough on yourselves.

Cheers!

 

[Iyest]

Wow, tough crowd we got here!!! !

Yes the truth is often tough.

 

[Iyest]

Dear sir...

In Malaysia..abortions are legally allowed for in cases where the mothers life is in danger and non compatabilty of fetus with life..eg Hydops fetalis..

These cases are handled by the Obs & Gyn specialist at a Goverment or Private medical centres..but rapes cases are not legally allowed to abort.

Thanks for sharing this information. Finally we can get back to the issue. What is the thinking of the people/govt in Malaysia? It seems to me they belive either that there are no rape cases in the country or they want rape victims to bear children at all costs. If so, what are they allowed to do? Can they give up the child for adoption after delivery?

 

[Nara]

Yes the truth is often tough.

Dear Iyest, quoting Col. Jessup, many here can't handle the truth, like those who toil in the fields all day, or paving the road under the sun, only to get violated at night and end up in a clinic to be lectured about condom, personal responsibility and other such platitudes, can.

Cheers!

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear Iyest, quoting Col. Jessup, many here can't handle the truth, like those who toil in the fields all day, or paving the road under the sun, only to get violated at night and end up in a clinic to be lectured about condom, personal responsibility and other such platitudes, can.

Cheers!

I was pondering over this particular song By Thiagraja Chakkani Rajani rendered by Semmangudi which I was listening to before I went sleep. To reach the goal( Here not to have babies) Why Choose bumpy hazardous path (Abortion on Demand) when Rajani Margamu Undaga(Great Condom) You don"t want to Be lectured Choice is yours

ENJOY Jambu :wave:

 

[renuka]

Thanks for sharing this information. Finally we can get back to the issue. What is the thinking of the people/govt in Malaysia? It seems to me they belive either that there are no rape cases in the country or they want rape victims to bear children at all costs. If so, what are they allowed to do? Can they give up the child for adoption after delivery?

Dear sir...

Its not that there is no rape..Termination of pregnancy is not allowed even for rape cases..becos there is no medical indiaction ...unless the mothers life is in danger..
Yes some keep the children and some give up for adoption..
I have seen many unwed mothers(non hindus) keep their babies becos they regret that they had premarital sex(Zina in Arabic)..and feel they should repent and not sin anymore by doing an abortion.
Anyway the rape cases here are very less.....

So far the high profile cases have been rape cum murder..the rapist does away with the victim then and there itself...so case closed..no pregnancy..Rapist gets caught most of the while and sentenced to death/life sentence most of the while.

 

[renuka]

No Renu, this does not answer anything, and you know it. In the context of what we are discussing please tell me whether it is alright for goddess Ganga to be worshipped given she mercilessly murdered seven new born babies.

Cheers!

Dear Nara anna,

Ok now you are being specific..you are asking me about the actions of Ganga..

Ok this is my personal thought...

• Firstly I do not worship Ganga
• I see water as H20 only
• Source of H20 is from God only
• H20 is denoted as feminine becos water nourishes like a mother.
• Our discussion is on technical grounds..abortion and ethics,morals and its implications, why are we dragging Ganga in here?
• Can you prove that Ganga existed?

If you can prove that she existed..then I will answer the part whether her actions were right or wrong...

See anna...educating patients both female and male about the ills of abortion is not subjecting them to the doctors personal moral beliefs..
Its like in a case of a diabetic patient..No doubt there is medication but we still tell patients to have a healthy lifestyle to prevent diabetes..

So with abortions...We tell them the ills of abortion and its complications and the harmful psychological effects of a mum/dad taking the life of their own child..as a prevention..Its not the right of the patient to have an abortion..leave all that jeeva and body technicality out here..

In that way..anyone can say..its my right to murder..so no need for courts and sentences...

Anna in another thread you felt that Ravana was wrong to drag away Sita becos he had no consent from her..

Ok in the case of abortions..the fetus has not given consent either..
so technically its wrong....you might argue that the fetus is under 18 years of age..but in that case can we kill a 5 year old child? he is still legally not able to give consent...
we cant isnt it? Its wrong..so apply same theory here...

 

[Iyest]

Dear Iyest, quoting Col. Jessup, many here can't handle the truth,

Yet truth remains as truth, Jessup or no Jessup. The mountain never descends to man, he must climb it however tough.

like those who toil in the fields all day, or paving the road under the sun, only to get violated at night and end up in a clinic to be lectured about condom, personal responsibility and other such platitudes, can.

Dramatization apart, the issue being discussed here is not about people who get violated against their wish. Just making sure you understood.

 

[Iyest]

Dear sir...

Yes some keep the children and some give up for adoption..
I have seen many unwed mothers(non hindus) keep their babies becos they regret that they had premarital sex(Zina in Arabic)..and feel they should repent and not sin anymore by doing an abortion. .

Thanks for this information. What is the status of these unwed mothers in society? Do they get any government support for their child? Needless to say in India an entire family or community can be black listed if there is an unwed mother. Though personally (for what it is worth) I think it is a brave move on the part of the woman.

Noticed that you specified non hindus in your answer. Does that mean there are no hindu unwed mothers?

Anyway the rape cases here are very less......

And I think that makes a big difference.

 

[renuka]

Thanks for this information. What is the status of these unwed mothers in society? Do they get any government support for their child? Needless to say in India an entire family or community can be black listed if there is an unwed mother. Though personally (for what it is worth) I think it is a brave move on the part of the woman.

Noticed that you specified non hindus in your answer. Does that mean there are no hindu unwed mothers?



And I think that makes a big difference.

Dear sir...

I am going to be outright frank here..Hindus are very abortion savvy here..so you wont see unwed mothers as much..they dont reach that state..

Hindu doctors are the abortion Kings here..
The life in mansions and drive sports model BMW with the money they rake in.

Like once i had a patient a young hindu girl in early twenties..who was 39 weeks pregnant almost term(term is 40 weeks)..Normal spontanoues vaginal delivery can take place anywhere from 37-40 weeks....
she was brought by the person she was having an affair with..and old relative..
Can you imagine they asked me for an abortion of a full term fetus?
I told her deliver the child and give up the child for adoption since she was term..

She went to another doctor who actaully induced the delivery and disposed the child by some form of lethal injection..a full term baby..actually murdered..

she told me this when she came back to see me a few months later..
I told her why didnt you just take the child and leave it at least in a temple if you really didnt want it?
she said it would have been a hassle..so simple her answer..no remorse etc and she is still being "kept" by that old guy..and still not taking contraception..

I told her never to come back to my clinic again..and for that doctor who did that criminal act..I really dont know how the "F" he can sleep every night..just for money people go to any extents...


forgot to mention..unwed mothers,divorcees and widows do get support from government
many shelter homes are set up to take in unwed mothers.
There is a ministry of family and women affairs to look into this plight..
No one is black listed..eventaully these girls also move on with life and marry..
People do talk and gossip but not for too long..