God Omnipotent. Really?

[Iyest]

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Dear sir...

I am going to be outright frank here..Hindus are very abortion savvy here..so you wont see unwed mothers as much..they dont reach that state..

Hindu doctors are the abortion Kings here..
The life in mansions and drive sports model BMW with the money they rake in. ..

Thank you for your information. Frankly, I am not very surprised. During my stays in many countries in the west, I got the same impression. Most hindus there also behave this way. Money is everything (don't let their mouthing 'brahman is everything' fool you). The irresponsible mothers expect the doctors to take their payment and do their bidding, no questions asked. They think that it is the same as ordering idlis in a restaurant. And the doctors are ready to oblige. I like your description 'abortion kings'. This is the state of hindus (at least a large number of them) worldwide.

..

Like once i had a patient a young hindu girl in early twenties..who was 39 weeks pregnant almost term(term is 40 weeks)..Normal spontanoues vaginal delivery can take place anywhere from 37-40 weeks....
she was brought by the person she was having an affair with..and old relative..
Can you imagine they asked me for an abortion of a full term fetus?
I told her deliver the child and give up the child for adoption since she was term..

She went to another doctor who actaully induced the delivery and disposed the child by some form of lethal injection..a full term baby..actually murdered..

she told me this when she came back to see me a few months later..
I told her why didnt you just take the child and leave it at least in a temple if you really didnt want it?
she said it would have been a hassle.. ..

Yes, a hassle. Talk about the sacrifices made by mothers in the past. Now an abortion is being ordered to overcome a small hassle. We should be prepared for 'drive through' abortion clinics soon.

..

so simple her answer..no remorse etc and she is still being "kept" by that old guy..and still not taking contraception.. ..

That is no surprise. So long as there are people to do exactly as she wants every time, she will not bother.

..

I told her never to come back to my clinic again..and for that doctor who did that criminal act..I really dont know how the "F" he can sleep every night..just for money people go to any extents.....

IMO, you did the right thing. The doctor fellow probably donated some amount from his ill gotten wealth to some temple and feels that he has repented.

..

No one is black listed..eventaully these girls also move on with life and marry....

That is very good to know. Some of that thinking is long overdue in India.

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear Dr Renukakarthikeyan You should now know that I retired as Deputy Director Family Welfare and I can post more horrid cases of infanticide than what you described. In one specific instance a girl of 19 was admitted as septic Abortion and died! Reason Abortion on Demand. Will it ever have any impact in the minds people with wrong notion like Abortion on Demand my birth right etc.
In the end of the day Prevention should be ideal. It is my body I have the right over it. I will not be responsible for my acts I will get pregnant It is my right to choose abortion Do not moralize or lecture. You are a doctor My right overrides any other consideration Do It. It is your Duty This always the line of their arguments I hope I can quote Justice Krishna Iyer though he made them in a different context It is a guided missile(Abortion on Demand)in the hands of misguided people! Jambu

 

[renuka]

Dear Dr Renukakarthikeyan You should now know that I retired as Deputy Director Family Welfare and I can post more horrid cases of infanticide than what you described. In one specific instance a girl of 19 was admitted as septic Abortion and died! Reason Abortion on Demand. Will it ever have any impact in the minds people with wrong notion like Abortion on Demand my birth right etc.
In the end of the day Prevention should be ideal. It is my body I have the right over it. I will not be responsible for my acts I will get pregnant It is my right to choose abortion Do not moralize or lecture. You are a doctor My right overrides any other consideration Do It. It is your Duty This always the line of their arguments I hope I can quote Justice Krishna Iyer though he made them in a different context It is a guided missile(Abortion on Demand)in the hands of misguided people! Jambu

Dear Dr,

I fully agree with you..I never tell my patients to refrain from premarital sex.I only advise them to practise safe sex as to prevent STD/HIV and unwanted pregnancies.
and for married couples..i tell them to choose an appropriate method of birth control.
You will be suprised that most of the while its the females who dont want their partners wearing condoms..becos they say "its not nice..no feel"..

well I can only do my duty of preaching "Prevention is better than cure"..more than that I cant do anything...

and i just realized something..this thread was about God being Omnipotent...and I started this topic about abortions yesterday...and this potent topic is so fertile now...cant wait for its full term delivery...

 

[Iyest]

Will it ever have any impact in the minds people with wrong notion like Abortion on Demand my birth right etc.

No. In fact it goes deeper. These people think they have a right to an abortion on demand and the doctors are slaves who should do exactly as commanded by them. In other words, they have a right over their body, their unborn child and even the doctors body! Unfortunately I think the doctors (private) are also lured by easy money like dogs after some biscuits. Not all mind you, but certainly many.

It is my body I have the right over it.

Then do your own abortion as well. Or find another doctor.

I will not be responsible for my acts I will get pregnant It is my right to choose abortion Do not moralize or lecture.

A doctor can also say, It may be your right to do abortion (in some countries) but it is not your right that I must do it.

You are a doctor My right overrides any other consideration Do It. It is your Duty This always the line of their arguments

I would not call these foolish statements by self righteous indulgers with no control of their hormones as a line of argument. But it is true that doctors also have to share in the blame for selling their services readily for money.

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear Dr. Renukakarthikeyan

Rarely 2 doctors agree a) True b) false C) no idea

I am again moving from c) back to to b). We agree that Prevention is Ideal தும்பை விட்டு வாலை பிடிப்பாநேன்

Fertile topic for sure! Will it ever blossom in barren minds?


Jamburay2:

 

[Nara]

.....
If you can prove that she existed..then I will answer the part whether her actions were right or wrong...

Dear Renu, is this not a strange demand coming from an avowed theist to an avowed atheist?

Anyway, even if you agree with me that this story, like so many other stories, is all just bunk, don't you think we can look at it and draw some conclusions, given the fact Ganga is part of the pantheon of Hindu gods, and she is worshiped by million over millions?

Renu, you have said so yourself, even you cannot change your mind as you have made it up. So, let us leave it here and enjoy.

BTW, I love kids and want to have an army of grandkids, but, like in this forum, in my non-virtual life also nobody listens to me these days .

the best to you my lovely sister .....


p.s.

Iyest and Jambu,
I think our disagreement on this issue is due to different perspectives. Our disagreement alone is not reason enough for you to conclude I am incapable of understanding or obstinate enough to refuse to understand. Love to you both ....

 

[nachi naga]

god is omnipotent,omnipresent,omnipast,omnifuture.

every jeeva athma is a particle of the whole brahman,who takes whatever form that the eye can see,the ears can listen,the nose can smell,the hands can touch,the mind can emote.etc.

thunillum iruppar thurimbilum iruppar,is the particulate particles of god consciousness and becoz prahladhan was a super devotee,the lord came in the form of lord narasimhar,to vanquish asuran hiranya kashipu.in hindsight,we can say now,who is lord who is asuran,as when actual life is going on like present time,do we have enuff intelligence to discriminate,who is the right doer or who is wrong doer?

abortion?pro life or pro choice.its the inherent right of a woman,to either be pro life or pro choice,and in this matter,the woman decides whats right for her - period.

marriage is a convenient,moral tool,to procreate and have a family life,with one life partners,untill death do us apart.most married couples are faithful to each other,though now a growing number of couples,start to stray either emotionally or physically,owing to incompatibility in communicating amongst themselves.when straying emotionally occurs,such platitudes like brother,sister,mama,papa,uncle,niece,daughter..etc famiial relationships are adde to feel justified for transgressing the boundaries.when physical cheating occurs amongst spouses,some stay married despite such visible conduct of transgression,and again rationalise their acts.today the younger generation,by and large,snap such ties,if they find partners,cheating and end up in divorce.

in all these,the god consciousness is there,be it moral or immoral,as perceived in society.that is why sanyasis wearing a kaavi vaasthram,was actually introduced,so that,people will lsten to someone,who has sacrificed for the sake of lokak shemam.instead,we find actors donning disguises and fooling the public,be it in spiritual field,political field,doctors field...etc.truth is a dynamic and transient,as always.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renu, is this not a strange demand coming from an avowed theist to an avowed atheist?

Anyway, even if you agree with me that this story, like so many other stories, is all just bunk, don't you think we can look at it and draw some conclusions, given the fact Ganga is part of the pantheon of Hindu gods, and she is worshiped by million over millions?

Renu, you have said so yourself, even you cannot change your mind as you have made it up. So, let us leave it here and enjoy.

BTW, I love kids and want to have an army of grandkids, but, like in this forum, in my non-virtual life also nobody listens to me these days .

the best to you my lovely sister .....


p.s.

Iyest and Jambu,
I think our disagreement on this issue is due to different perspectives. Our disagreement alone is not reason enough for you to conclude I am incapable of understanding or obstinate enough to refuse to understand. Love to you both ....

Dear Nara anna...

I really do not believe in the Pantheon of Hindu Gods..I believe in God..and see all other forms as His modus operandi only.
Even goddesses are just the kinetic aspect of the One and Only Purusha..
Durga being deified aspect of Tamas guna in Prakriti,Lakshmi being the Rajas and Saraswati being the Sattva counterpart.
As long as the mind imagines a diety is born as an artist impression.
As I had mentioned before most devas and devis are deified representation of a particular aspect of God..so why concentrate on the Bulbs..we should concentrate on the Electric Current that lights up those bulbs..
The current is also in us..so i rather look within than without...
Thats why I did not want to answer the question..H2O is just feminine and deified as Ganga..

I know you want an answer from me but I cant really give you an answer..because if Ganga is really a goddess and she came to earth as mother of the 8 vasus..that means Shiva's head would have been empty for a while..and technically the world should have been washed away in a deluge..becos the reason she was there on Shiva's head was to break the force of water...so if she happily roaming around..so it does not make sense even to keep her on Lord Shiva's head.

God has lots of mysterious ways..I can't understand all that..
I have no idea whether the 7 Vasus who were drowned actually died of drowning?or they just gave up thier mortal coil when in contact with water?
None of us really know the true story?
So I cant really give and answer..

Sorry anna..dont get me wrong.I am not trying to evade your question...
You are simply too nice for me to do that..and I know one more person in this forum who will agree with me(about you being too nice)

 

[Nara]

...I believe in God..and see all other forms as His modus operandi only.
[...]
God has lots of mysterious ways..I can't understand all that..
[..]
I have no idea whether the 7 Vasus who were drowned actually died of drowning?or they just gave up thier mortal coil when in contact with water?

Ha Renu, this is the response I expected from you. How can you hold the above views and at the same time say a pill induced abortion is murder? Don't you think your assertion that god works in mysterious ways applies here as well. How do you even know the fetus died, perhaps like the seven vasus Ganga actually murdered in the story, this fetus also just left its mortal coil.

A firm belief in Hindu world view of karma/reincarnation is inconsistent with blanket opposition to abortion.

My point was never that abortion is a good thing or it must be available on demand -- that is a willful caricature of what I am saying. Women seek this service for many reasons and therefore as compassionate human beings our a priori position should be one of understanding love for these women. I don't think they come to this decision casually as you all make it out to be -- I am sure some do, but not many IMO.

All right, let us have kumbaya now

.and I know one more person in this forum who will agree with me(about you being too nice)

What? Only one more? What about my friend from Dearborn, home of the brand new Miss USA who happens to be a Muslim? (The Miss USA is the Muslim, not my friend)

have fun everybody, there is only one life and when we are gone, we are gone .....

 

[renuka]

Dear Nara anna...

One day you should sit with me when i see these females who walk in to see me...they are not really innocent..at times i have only this word to describe them...they take life to casually as if its their right to screw and kill..no value for life...they are so carried away by sexual pleasure with their husbands(I am talking about married ones)..
some of their husbands dont want them to abort and ask them to take contreceptive pills but these females dont want to.
One husband even told me he was willing to wear a condom but his wife didnt likeit becos she told me only prostitutes ask man to wear a condom and she is a dharma patni(but its ok to kill)
Any amount of lecture on contraception wont work..If i were a guy and i had such an irresponsible wife..i will bring home a different woman every night and make her cook and clean for them..and watch me in action...


I only just have one word..sorry 3 words to describe them, when they walk out my door..sorry moderators..I am going to sound harsh..this the word that comes to my mind..Bloody F***ing B**ch......

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

I think this forum is getting into விதண்டா வாதம் . missing the main issue. Doctors are not Bond James Bond 007 licensed to kill You may have a gun ( Abortion on demand) But do you have mandate to kill? Jambu:nono:

 

[Iyest]

A firm belief in Hindu world view of karma/reincarnation is inconsistent with blanket opposition to abortion. .....

Not at all. If Renuka's karma is to oppose abortion all her life, she will do it notwithstanding all efforts to influence her differently.

.....

My point was never that abortion is a good thing or it must be available on demand -- that is a willful caricature of what I am saying. .....

Then what was the issue all along? It was sufficiently clear the discussion was about abortions excluding rape and danger to the mothers health.

.....

I don't think they come to this decision casually as you all make it out to be -- .....

Do you think Renuka and some other doctors do?!

 

[Nara]

.... Then what was the issue all along? It was sufficiently clear the discussion was about abortions excluding rape and danger to the mothers health.
[..... ]
Do you think Renuka and some other doctors do?!

Dear Iyest, No, I don't think Renuka or other doctors come to their decisions casually. I did not say that nor did I give any impression to that effect.

My point all along is about women having the right to make decisions about their body and mind without getting a third degree treatment. In the context of respecting women to make their decision that they can handle and live with, the obligations of medical professionals are indeed debatable.

Some providers refuse this service even in the case of rape or incest. Some refuse even if mother's health is in danger. Why, some may even refuse to prescribe morning-after pills. Catholics do not believe in condom or birth-control pills.

A related issue is end-of-life care and euthanasia. Dignitas is a Swiss non-profit that helps terminally ill patients end their lives with dignity. Is this a valid thing for doctors to do, given their oath to do no harm? Is letting terminally ill people with just a few months to live suffer pain -- doing no harm?

These are difficult questions with no easy answers. What is deemed acceptable in one society may not be in another.

But what about individual medical professionals? What is their role?

In my opinion, in as much as medical education in almost all countries is subsidized, and to practice medicine one needs certification, having received this education and certification, a doctor ought not to refuse a legal service to a woman based on one's own moral qualms. If this was an issue, that individual should have refrained from such a career choice. For example, a practicing Jain should not join the army, so to speak.

This is my opinion. Your opinion is different, and I respect that. If you think my opinion is all rubbish, that is fine too .

What are the rights and duties of a medical professional is a difficult question for which there are no easy answers. Reasonable people will disagree and I think that is alright.

Cheers!

 

[jaisiyaraam]

Namaste Madams/Sirs,

I am confused by these questions:

Is anything Artificial ie man made is "immoral" ?
Is anything that which is not Artificial is "moral" ?
Why is it immoral to be a bitch ie to have multiple s3x partners?
Is it moral to be a bitch ie to have multiple s3x partners if safe s3x is practiced?
Is sex(with spouse) is moral only if intended to make babies? otherwise immoral?
If abortion is justified for saving mother's life ie immediate danger for mother then otherwise is the mental agony(social, emotional, economic pressure) justified ie when abortion is not allowed?
Is Preventing pregnancy different/justified than/over abortion? just because abortion involves aborting/killing a baby and prevention of pregnancy is simple process of wasting spoonful/glassful of sperms and discharging unfertilized eggs?
If the right to serve is reserved by the person doing the service by citing personal beliefs/morals/comfort level/mentality/attitude/religion etc., then is this sufficient & enough condition to blame/brand people who provide their service for money/selfish motives? what is the difference between personal belief and selfish motive? are morals meant to be universal/standards/truths?

I have many more such questions that confuse me but would like to pause and learn from you all.

I am seeking your apologies in advance if these questions hurt anyone and/or if you feel they are directed towards you.

I hope and wish one/some of you might be able to remove my confusion.

Jai SiyaRaam

 

[Nara]

... I hope and wish one/some of you might be able to remove my confusion.

Hello jaisiyaraam, I doubt whether anyone gets their doubts cleared in a forum like this, especially on controversial questions about which people have passionate opinions. If you have a POV, state it, and we can argue about it.

Good luck with getting your doubts cleared.

Cheers!

 

[jaisiyaraam]

Hello jaisiyaraam, I doubt whether anyone gets their doubts cleared in a forum like this, especially on controversial questions about which people have passionate opinions. If you have a POV, state it, and we can argue about it.

Good luck with getting your doubts cleared.

Cheers!

Namaste Naraji,

You are nipping in the bud my child like curiosity, squashing my hopes of clearing my doubts - I am just kidding.

I happy to see you equating "question" with a "doubt". I never heard anyone saying "I have a doubt Sir" in USA but which is very common in India and that's how I grew up but I replaced "doubt" with "question" ever since I landed here in USA. You got me correctly sir these are my doubts.

I have nothing to present for my actions/opinions are inconsistent and I seek/learn from others and I correct/change myself all the times.

I have hope and will wait for responses/replies.

Jai SiyaRaam

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

Dear
In Nut shell You are attempting to establish that not all or at least few women" s option for abortion is knowledgeable and not all but a few doctors deny this legal right of her on (doctors) their morals perception and hence insensitive to patients knowledgeable decision. Correct? Yes she is aware of legality of her decision & this is never questioned in this forum. But the consequences of her decisions when implemented like the possible physical & psychological trauma are ever considered while arriving at her knowledgeable decision? Questionable and only that is questioned.They are" Love Machines" Machines are made to perform. They don't have their own mind and emotions Really it is Guided missiles in the Hands of misguided people! As there are Dr. Death who rake in money in this their will be "Devils Advocates" also

Jambu:argue:

 

[renuka]

Dear Nara anna,

I am going to apologize for actually deviating from the original purpose from the thread...i had started this topic indirectly...so I am going to bow out of it..but before that let me clear a few misconception about me and my medical practise..

• I do not judge the character of my patients
• I am not asking them to be moral
• I have many patients who are prostitutes and they are nice woman too with their own sob story.
• I dont even view premarital or extramarital affair of my patients as immoral..its thier life..
• I do not charge a fee for a poor unwed mothers.
• I have even not told a pateint that the baby his wife is carrying is not his child and I just followed up the pregnancy as usual,becos if i did..he will surely ask her to abort the fetus..I wanted the child to live.
• when I scan a baby and its dead in utero,I do not charge the patient..I dont want to receive a fee through a death of an individual
• I am not imposing my views on others esp woman
• I am more concern about woman when it comes to contrception becos man are more carefree and think its not their responsibilty...so I educate the woman folk more..becos when you educate a man you educate him only..when you educate a woman you educate society.
• I am not playing super hero here and trying to safe lives..I am just doing my duty as a doctor to save lifes whether extrauterine or intrueterine.
• And anna...we should not miss use words from the Gita to suit our whims and fancies and try to escape on technical grounds..
• The Atma is eternal..but no one has the right to cause death or grevious hurt to another..that law is universal in any society.
• I am only trying to instill responsibilty to patients..thats a doctors duty...
• Marriage does not mean having the license to have intercourse with gay abandon and be carried away by passion..we have a mental faculity to stop check us..for example before then act..get condoms ready by the bedside or woman should have taken the pill for the day..if no condom at home or forgot pill just post pone sex or indulge in another form that does not lead to an unplanned pregnancy...what is so difficult about being a bit disciplined?
• If any of us can get up without fail for prayers..so discipline is surely not a problem for humans..
• If life is so cheap that a fetus has no value..why do we run away and try to defend ourselves when someone tries to kill us?we should just stand there and tell the killer..go ahead..you are only killing my body and not my Atma.
• Anna..a soldiers duty is to defend and fight..He is not sinning.whether he is a Jain,Hindu etc..He is doing his dharma just like how a doctor does his dharma not take the life of a patient and save lifes only...
• This is just to clear the doubt that I am imposing my values on others and being judgemental.
• If a mother who wants to abort her own child for no apparent medical reason is not seen as wrong..then why did we even need to call Nithyananda a fraud?He only had sex..he did not kill...

I am not posting anymore on this topic here.
renu

 

[Dr.T.N.Jambunathan]

I think this forum is getting into விதண்டா வாதம் . missing the main issue. Doctors are not Bond James Bond 007 licensed to kill You may have a gun ( Abortion on demand) But do you have mandate to kill? Jambu:nono:

Bear Dr. Renukakarthikeyan

I was exactly in the same mood when I posted this yesterday. Now again 2 doctors agree You are into the same mood .Don't loose heart There will always be வக்ரம் . I will not respond any more in this thread though I started it. It is my "Baby since I gave birth to It" With a very heavy heart I am abandoning that. I know there are insensitive INTELLECTUALS who can throw the baby with bath waters with absolutely nil emotion! (ஜடம்) In the end of the day our efforts wasted. விழலுக்கு நீர் பாய்ச்சி ஒய்ந்து போநோம் Or is it செவிடன் காதில் சங்கா ? Jambu

 

[Nara]

I am not posting anymore on this topic here.

My dearest Renu, let me share a beautiful song of my most favorite singar, Bhagavathar.........click just here!

Hope you are having as much fun with your life as I do....(I hope you know what I mean .

 

[Nara]

விழலுக்கு நீர் பாய்ச்சி ஒய்ந்து போநோம் Or is it செவிடன் காதில் சங்கா ? Jambu

I guess Indian doctors in India are no different from Indian doctors in the U.S.

Best to everyone and love to all .....

 

[renuka]

My dearest Renu, let me share a beautiful song of my most favorite singar, Bhagavathar.........click just here!

Hope you are having as much fun with your life as I do....(I hope you know what I mean .

Ok this is a poem once I wrote..about Abortions

Abortion Song


Dawn is breaking,wake up and arise
It's a new day and time to realize
Blessed with a chance and knowledge to save
Yet life in utero,some dont stop to take.

Curretted and tortured in the sac bubble
Worse for the viable,no resuscitate only struggle
Always remember life isnt so cheap
Someday what you sow,you will reap.

The lure of money can make some a demon
A demon knows neither hell nor heaven
Material on earth,money can buy
Tell me,what do you take when you die?

I am neither a preacher nor a saint
Only human,trying to make change
If abortionist stopped,contraception will work
Cos' compassion would surge and lust left in the lurch.

Think about what I said
Repent today before going to bed
Think about the souls,a body you deprived
No where to go and no where to hide.

You cant light up your home by blowing anothers flame
Cos the flame in you and me is one and the same
Dont wait for Day of Judgement in this Iron Age
There's no escape from Ropes of Time and Almightys Rage.

 

[renuka]

My dearest Nara anna...

this song is for you..

YouTube - "I'm Still Standing" by "Elton John"

 

[Iyest]

My point all along is about women having the right to make decisions about their body and mind without getting a third degree treatment. In the context of respecting women to make their decision that they can handle and live with, the obligations of medical professionals are indeed debatable. !

Anybody can debate anything in their spare time. Nobody in any profession is exempted. But refusing made to order abortions is not third degree treatment. Since you now raise the issue of respecting decisions, doctors also have to make decisions and live with them. Their decisions deserve as much if not more respect since they see cases by the hundreds.

Some providers refuse this service even in the case of rape or incest. Some refuse even if mother's health is in danger. Why, some may even refuse to prescribe morning-after pills. Catholics do not believe in condom or birth-control pills. !

I am sorry but this was never an issue in this thread.

A related issue is end-of-life care and euthanasia. !

Again this is another issue altogether.

But what about individual medical professionals? What is their role? !

They will make individual decisions based on the merits of each case. Unfortunately, many today will do anything asked of them in return for money.

In my opinion, in as much as medical education in almost all countries is subsidized, and to practice medicine one needs certification, having received this education and certification, a doctor ought not to refuse a legal service to a woman based on one's own moral qualms. !

This again is a very myopic outlook based purely on money. Because medical education is subsidized doctors must behave like slaves and take orders from every citizen however ignorant and irrational. Using this kind of logic, anybody who studies beyond 1st grade has received some form of subsidy and therefore must do whatever the government wants!

What are the rights and duties of a medical professional is a difficult question for which there are no easy answers.

That may be for non medical people. After a few years in the field most of doctors that I come across are able to smell these filthy cases from a mile away! There is no difficulty to see the difference between genuine and phonies.

 

[Iyest]

Dear Nara anna,

If a mother who wants to abort her own child for no apparent medical reason is not seen as wrong..then why did we even need to call Nithyananda a fraud?He only had sex..he did not kill...

I am not posting anymore on this topic here.
renu

Renu, you have made your position very clear and in any case there is surprising agreement among most of us here. Yes, there is no point is posting about this any further. :closed_2: