Fatalism and Poverty in Pakistan and Bangladesh

[Yamaka]

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Theological FATALISM and Poverty in India: An Open Inquiry

Dear Y,......
I don't have any solid hypothesis, but I can offer my guesses, just my speculations. I offer three, (i) break up of the feudal/caste system, (ii) population growth, (iii) political system/corruption.

I reject the feudal system and reject caste system even more, but the system provided for everyone in a way similar to the slave system of USA that provided for the slaves. We can do much better and must.

To address population growth we need to clearly understand the underlying causes. If we say it is RF, then we have to design solutions on that basis. That is simply impractical as we can't even begin to objectively define what RF is, and how to handle it.

On the other hand, if we take a rational look at the problem it is not difficult to see that the major causes for large families include lack of education and lack of economic opportunities. These are more objective measures and objective solutions can be devised, and are being devised. Today, it is difficult to see large families like a generation ago, across the board, in Tamil Nadu.

We also need to keep in mind that in India birth control is not a religious issue, at least among Hindus, if it was, how would you explain female infanticide/feticide? Infanticide is in Mahabharatam itself, goddess Gangai threw her new born babies into the river Gangai, except the last one.

Cheers!

Dear Nara:

Nice thoughtful reply..

1. I accept Population Growth as a major cause of the Poverty in India91%.

When I dig into it, RF or TF comes up as the root cause: As the conservative Catholic Bishops in the US argue, using contraception and birth control tools is considered a SIN and such usage is against the conscience of the religious people.

This is what all along I have been riling against.

To solve this, we need to open up a Free Conversation in the Society which can be done by the Media & Press, and the Movie Directors and Producers (who can talk to large masses thru their productions).

2. I accept Poor Education and Lack of Economic Opportunity as other causes of Poverty in India91%.

Why poor education among India91%?: When I dig in to it, the answer I get is kids drop out of school very early because of family Poverty. This again comes back to the Belief of the Parents in limiting the Family Size. Now we go back to what I talked about in #1 above.

Economic Opportunity is very limited again because of poor skills of India91%.

I see that we go in a circle. We need to break this at some point.

3. I suggest that each family of India9% adopt 10 families of India91% to "guide them thru in having small family (1-2 children) and educating the kids at least thru passing the high school".

India9% must work thru responsible NGOs to achieve this goal with a long term ( a 20 year) financial commitment...

This is exactly what I am planning to do with my son's help in rural India...

More later...

 

[Nara]

Dear Y, you are still coming up short. I apologize to be on your case, but when you hypothesize a connection between widespread povery and religious fatalism you have to provide a rational basis for such a hypothesis. If you fail to do so, people will be quick to use a broad brush to paint all free thinkers as irrational. I want to innoculate against such a charge.

1. I accept Population Growth as a major cause of the Poverty in India91%.

When I dig into it, RF or TF comes up as the root cause: As the conservative Catholic Bishops in the US argue, using contraception and birth control tools is considered a SIN and such usage is against the conscience of the religious people.

Yes, the Bishops and some frustrated inadequate men who love to tell women should and should not do might think this, but among the general population, not even Catholic women think use of contraception is a sin. Be that as it may, is this the view in India? I am not sure what the situation is among Christian and Muslim populations for sure, but among the Hindus who constitute 80% of the Indian population, use of contraception is certainly not viewed as sin. RF/TF plays no role in the use contraception, or even abortion. So, RF/TF is not even one of the possible causes for population growth, let alone the root cause.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Y, you are still coming up short. I apologize to be on your case, but when you hypothesize a connection between widespread povery and religious fatalism you have to provide a rational basis for such a hypothesis. If you fail to do so, people will be quick to use a broad brush to paint all free thinkers as irrational. I want to innoculate against such a charge.

Yes, the Bishops and some frustrated inadequate men who love to tell women should and should not do might think this, but among the general population, not even Catholic women think use of contraception is a sin. Be that as it may, is this the view in India? I am not sure what the situation is among Christian and Muslim populations for sure, but among the Hindus who constitute 80% of the Indian population, use of contraception is certainly not viewed as sin. RF/TF plays no role in the use contraception, or even abortion. So, RF/TF is not even one of the possible causes for population growth, let alone the root cause.

Cheers!

Dear N:

This is the REAL issue here.

When I talk to poor families in my village and neighboring small towns in Ramnad Taluk & Dist (both Hindus and Muslims), randomly, as to why they keep having children when they already struggle to feed them and educate them, the typical answer is

"Ellaam Aandavan Koduthathu...Kadavul seitha vazhi ithu... "Kuzhanthai Selvam is good for the family!".

These families typically have two girls and a boy already... and they are planning to have two more kids, at least. And, using family planning tools is NOT in their practice, in generations.

Yes, my assumption is MOST of India91% is like this - more so in villages and in slums in large cities.

You may disagree... That's fine with me.

We don't have a systematic study to document all this human behavior in India.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Y,........

From the archeological evidence one can perhaps guess the pre-Vedic IVC was prosperous, equal to, or may even exceeding, contemporaneous civilzations elsewhere in the world. But I have a problem with your characterization that RF was slowly increasing its choke hold over time. So, let me pose the following two questions:

1. What evidence do we have that IVC was relatively free of RF?
2. On what basis do you say IVC marks the zenith of economic prosperity in India? India has seen several golden ages of peace and economic prosperity long after IVC, Gupta dynasty, Pallava Period in the south, Raja Raja Cholan, Vijayanagar, and then there was the Mogul empire that was the wealthiest empire in history at that time.

Cheers!

Dear N:

Good questions.. Let me try to answer them

1. My reading says that People of IVC (mostly the forefathers of the present day South Indians, which is another controversy. Let's not venture there here!) worshiped mostly the Sun, Moon, Sea, Rain as Naturalists... and also the Divine Mother Land, the source of their wealth thru Agriculture along the delta of the Indus River and tributaries... there is indication of Shakthi worship and to some lesser extent of Lingham worship.

I don't see RF/TF among the People of IVC... maybe, I am missing something... If you have information, please let me know.

2. When I read about Mehrgarh (7000 BC), I quickely scanned the world: None came to me as close to this - neither the Mesopotamians, Athenians or the Mayans.

Therefore, I make a mental graph like this: Y axis is the Ratio of IVC Prosperity over the rest of the world and the X axis is the Time Scale starting from 7000 BC till 2012.

I get a clear Negative Slope. Then I ask myself "What did happen during that period as a Force that Changes the Paradigm...?"

My answer is: Alas... the Forces of the Vedas, Puranas... and lately Koran and Bible and the attendant Ideology of RF/TF.

I know most of the readers in this Forum may not like this... because they are all in India9% and their life Experience is different from Yamaka's who is from a small rural village in India.

Most of the Poverty is in the Rural and the Slum Cities of India.

Innum Varumm...

Cheers.

 

[biswa]

Nuclear Fatalism



Citizens of a soon-to-be nuclear power praying for the safety of their nuclear reactor. (Hint: the country is not perennially fatalistic India)

If praying to your God for the safety of your bombs from the bombs of the "other God" is not fatalistic, then what is? What are your own anti-aircraft guns and fighter jets doing? Clearly, prayer has power!

Note: Source of photo: Newsweek magazine. Also published in USA Today.

 

[biswa]

Madam Prime Minister in Pokhran



I like this pic a lot. She was a plucky one, Mrs. Gandhi. The way she is personally examining a nuked stone. No fatalism there in our very own "Iron Lady".

 

[biswa]

Industrial Revolution

If you look at the countries that made it big in the 18th and 19th centuries it seems one thing that worked in their favor is the proximity to the industrial revolution. The industrial revolution happened in England and in parts of western Europe. This was accompanied by a burst of scientific activity in England, France and Germany and later in America.

America benefited from its long-standing ties with Britain and later indirectly Japan benefited from ties to America. It is perhaps not coincidental that the western European countries were the richest in the last century as they thoroughly outclassed the others in science and technology. In addition America also had substantial natural resources.

India also benefited from being a colony of the British Empire. At least we got the railway system and electricity. But the effects were diminished because of the distance. I think Pakistan and Bangladesh were also similarly influenced. it is only in the last 10-15 years has India pulled away a bit.