Fatalism and Poverty in India

[Yamaka]

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I am moving the pertinent posts by Sri Yamaka and others to this centralized thread on this topic so that the other topics need not be involved

KRS​

uncle Yams, my request. kindly come out of this..

this situation reminds me of what an atheist michael gorbachev once said "certain people in united states are driving nails in to this structure of our relationship, then cutting of the heads. So the soviets must use their teeth to pull them out"


if you wish to stay away in discussing with few, thats a wonderful idea, than digging about past.

btw, uncle, as usual, pls come back to your favourite topic 'Rs.150/Day

Dear Shiv:

Nice hearing from you.

Lots of water under the bridge... I have moved on

To recall, I want to go back to my Original Question

"Yaarukaha Azhuvan Yamaka?"

For the nearly billion people who are locked inside "the Gates of Hell of Poverty" in India.

"Why are they so poor that many go hungry everyday, who can't make more than Rs. 150 per day per person?"


I opine that the basic reason is the Fatalism propounded by the Holy Books of Religions in India.

My posts have been one way or the other to substantiate this claim. I expect the Believers to give their alternate view.

In my historical perspective, Indians once lived in great style, opulence and flair (Cf Mehrgarh and Indus Valley Civilization); they were the envy of the world before the Industrial Revolution (so much so every Tom, Dick and Harry wanted to invade us and subjugate us to exploit our natural resources and hard sweat and blood).

Why, then, Indians become very Divided and thus Weak?

I opine that because of the rigid Caste Hierarchy in the Indian Society propounded by the Ancient Religion. I expect the Believers to give their alternate view.

In this regard, the recent movie by AR Murugadoss - 7am Arivu - is very revealing, although it is historically very inaccurate.

Please recall the last few lines of his closing comments.

More later....

Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Yamaka, Greetings.

It is very nice to see your messages. I am glad to see you have moved on.

"Yaarukaha Azhuvan Yamaka?"

Technically, you can't even cry for yourself, leave alone crying for others.

"Why are they so poor that many go hungry everyday, who can't make more than Rs. 150 per day per person?"


I opine that the basic reason is the Fatalism propounded by the Holy Books of Religions in India.

My posts have been one way or the other to substantiate this claim. I expect the Believers to give their alternate view.

No sir. Religion has nothing to do one's poverty. Religion may have made few persons rich though. I was in such a poverty.. actually worst than that at one time. Did you say Rs.150/day/person? Man, if I made that kind of money in 1990.. no, even half of that, I would not have migrated to Australia! Only I knew how to live on a shoe-string budget, and actually saved money too ( But I treated our son as a prince though).

Religion gives faith and belief. In those days, I did have faith and belief. I worked hard, and I believed Gods won't dump me. When I get advancement oner step at a time, I thanked God everytime.

I am not ashamed I was a staunch believer at one time. It is only a progress for a human being.

Majority of the persons may find that postion comfortable and stay at that position until death. Why not?

At the end of the day, life is all about satisfaction and happiness. What ever makes one happy....

My point is, we can not blame a person for his/her belief and faith in God. They have no obligation to justify their faith.

But that does not stop one from expressing his/her view as an athiest. I enjoy such views and such rationalising too.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

No sir. Religion has nothing to do one's poverty. Religion may have made few persons rich though. I was in such a poverty.. actually worst than that at one time.

Dear Raghy, I won't go as far as "nothing to do" just as I won't go as far as to say religion is the only factor responsible for poverty.

Lot of people cite personal anecdotes as evidence to draw broad conclusions. This is not rational. People come in all sizes and natures. Some are adventurous and daring, they tend to climb out of adversaries more often than not. Then there are people who are cautious and risk averse, they also succeed, but probably to a lesser extent, or may be total failures if they face severe adversity.

Whether religion has an effect or not on our success we have to control at least for these personality variables -- other variables must also be controlled -- and look only at what religion does to the human psyche. I don't think we have unassailable data to show religion uniformly makes people become less driven and less successful, or more driven and more successful, may be, may be not.

But one thing is certain, religion does not offer any boon that cannot be had by any other secular means, and, unfortunately, worse, it makes otherwise nice people behave badly. For example, if we are to live according to the religious edicts of Brahminism, then young widows must shave their heads and lead a "spiritual" life, like those in the movie Water, that too for their own good, what a tragedy!!!

As I say often, religion has been more a bane than boon to humanity.

Cheers!

---

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Nara, Greetings.

But one thing is certain, religion does not offer any boon that cannot be had by any other secular means, and, unfortunately, worse, it makes otherwise nice people behave badly. For example, if we are to live according to the religious edicts of Brahminism, then young widows must shave their heads and lead a "spiritual" life, like those in the movie Water, that too for their own good, what a tragedy!!!

Agree with that. Religion on its own may not bring success to anyone just through the faith alone. Yes, it can be a disaster to take religion too seriously. I am glad widows in general don't have to folow the old customs anymore.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Raghy:

Nice reply. Please see my response in bold letters below -

Sri.Yamaka, Greetings.

It is very nice to see your messages. I am glad to see you have moved on.



Technically, you can't even cry for yourself, leave alone crying for others.



No sir. Religion has nothing to do one's poverty. Religion may have made few persons rich though. I was in such a poverty.. actually worst than that at one time. Did you say Rs.150/day/person? Man, if I made that kind of money in 1990.. no, even half of that, I would not have migrated to Australia! Only I knew how to live on a shoe-string budget, and actually saved money too ( But I treated our son as a prince though).

Here let me elaborate my view as to why Belief in God and Religion is the root cause of poverty in most situations:

As I have said many times before, I have a definition for being a Believer in one of the Organized Religions in India (Abrahamic and Hinduism - the Grand Daddy of All Religions there):

1. The person absolutely believes in Super Natural Agent in the form of a Super-Human Being (like Jesus, Rama, Krishna, Shiva or the ilk of Murugan or Ganapathy (the Puranic Gods) or some unknown human face for Muslims).

2. The person should always think of this SNA and worship HIM. All or many of the worshiper's wishes WILL come true in this life.

3. For Hindus, there is Rebirth and Reincarnation of the Soul.. This translates into FATALISM of the type of "Janma Poorva Karma" This makes the Believer to conclude that " All activities are Pre-Ordained or Pre-Determined by the SNA".

All most all the poor people in India (like my own parents) are Believers who fit the above definition, unlike the small very affluent Believers in this Forum who belong to "Pick and Choose some form of a Personal God or Religion - who are mostly "I want the cake and eat it too type" of whom I don't really care here in this argument.

These poor people are born into poor families in the first place. Their family size is too big to support the basic needs of the children. Poverty breeds further poverty. If you ask them "why do you have big family 3-5 children?"... the typical answer is "God giveth and Man taketh" "He created us, and HE will take care of us".

This is due to the sense of FATALISM, I contend.

Poor people seldom think of small family size, increasing the skills and looking for "good job" to earn for the needs of the family. They typically spend enormous time in prayers, poojas and bhajans, as my parents did all their life.

Alas, the Non-Existent God never listens to the prayers of this poor people and most die very unhappily still thinking of the SNA murmuring "At least, life in the other world will be better". Not knowing there is no other world for any body.

All this goes back to the fundamental Belief of SNA and its derivative FATALISM.

Religion gives faith and belief. In those days, I did have faith and belief. I worked hard, and I believed Gods won't dump me. When I get advancement oner step at a time, I thanked God everytime.

I am not ashamed I was a staunch believer at one time. It is only a progress for a human being.

Majority of the persons may find that postion comfortable and stay at that position until death. Why not?

At the end of the day, life is all about satisfaction and happiness. What ever makes one happy....

My point is, we can not blame a person for his/her belief and faith in God. They have no obligation to justify their faith.

But that does not stop one from expressing his/her view as an athiest. I enjoy such views and such rationalising too.

Cheers!

Cheers.

Peace.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Yamaka Ji,

You said:
[QUOTEThese poor people are born into poor families in the first place. Their family size is too big to support the basic needs of the children. Poverty breeds further poverty. If you ask them "why do you have big family 3-5 children?"... the typical answer is "God giveth and Man taketh" "He created us, and HE will take care of us".

This is due to the sense of FATALISM, I contend.

Poor people seldom think of small family size, increasing the skills and looking for "good job" to earn for the needs of the family. They typically spend enormous time in prayers, poojas and bhajans, as my parents did all their life.

Alas, the Non-Existent God never listens to the prayers of this poor people and most die very unhappily still thinking of the SNA murmuring "At least, life in the other world will be better". Not knowing there is no other world for any body.

All this goes back to the fundamental Belief of SNA and its derivative FATALISM.][/QUOTE]

Sorry Sir. Not true. It has been shown that a poor family's behavior of begetting a lot of children is based on economics, not on religion. It is purely based on self interest.

1. Because infant and toddler mortality is high in these families, they tend to beget more children.
2. More children means more family income through child labor, and to support the parents in old age.

Perfectly logical. Also, studies have shown that as a person obtains more education and starts climbing in social ladder, they tend to have less children, regardless of religion.

As the famous quote during Clinton's election, 'It is economy, stupid!' (I am not calling you that ! )

If you have any studies that links poverty to religion, then please cite them. Otherwise it is all your unsubstantiated personal opinion. LOL

Regards,
KRS

 

[tks]

Dear Sri Yamaka Ji,

You said:
[QUOTEThese poor people are born into poor families in the first place. Their family size is too big to support the basic needs of the children. Poverty breeds further poverty. If you ask them "why do you have big family 3-5 children?"... the typical answer is "God giveth and Man taketh" "He created us, and HE will take care of us".

This is due to the sense of FATALISM, I contend.

Poor people seldom think of small family size, increasing the skills and looking for "good job" to earn for the needs of the family. They typically spend enormous time in prayers, poojas and bhajans, as my parents did all their life.

Alas, the Non-Existent God never listens to the prayers of this poor people and most die very unhappily still thinking of the SNA murmuring "At least, life in the other world will be better". Not knowing there is no other world for any body.

All this goes back to the fundamental Belief of SNA and its derivative FATALISM.]

Sorry Sir. Not true. It has been shown that a poor family's behavior of begetting a lot of children is based on economics, not on religion. It is purely based on self interest.

1. Because infant and toddler mortality is high in these families, they tend to beget more children.
2. More children means more family income through child labor, and to support the parents in old age.

Perfectly logical. Also, studies have shown that as a person obtains more education and starts climbing in social ladder, they tend to have less children, regardless of religion.

As the famous quote during Clinton's election, 'It is economy, stupid!' (I am not calling you that ! )

If you have any studies that links poverty to religion, then please cite them. Otherwise it is all your unsubstantiated personal opinion. LOL

Regards,
KRS

Y Avl

I hope you do answer to the above point by KRS Avl.

There is a strong statistical correlation established by many studies that infant mortality rates and population explosions are connected regardless of religious beliefs or lack of an established belief system in the country.

Please see the study by WHO (page 36 for example) at this reference

http://www.paho.org/English/HDP/HDD/Sachs.pdf


Fatalistic thinking about one's life events has origins in the religion you were raised in and has spread to most of India and many part of the world though. The best remedy is to teach people about assuming 100% responsibility for their life which is consistent with Karma models described in Vedic scriptures.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Servall, Sankara and others:

Since the topic of Temple Visits, God, Religion and FATALISM are very intimately inter-twined, I am continuing this discussion here.

I hope this is okay with you.

________________________________________________________________

Dear Dr. tks Avl:

Since you have made a clear statement that you are "Neither a Theist nor an Atheist, I dare to ask you the following simple questions to clarify my assessment and understanding -

1. Have you heard of most poor Indians saying "God Giveth, and Man Taketh" or "Ellaam Aandavan Seyal" when it comes to large family, poverty and day to day suffering?

2. Have you also heard "It's ALL Pre-Ordained Nothing can be changed by anyone. But, what all we can do is just think of GOD all the time, and worship him. For Vithi Vazhiathu"

3. If you combine 1 and 2, I get the Essence of FATALISM. Do you agree? If not, please explain.

I define poor Indians as those who can't earn more than Rs. 150 per person per day.

The "GOD" here is defined as in my previous post to dear Raghy. The Abrahamic or Puranic God.

Thanks.

Regards.

Y

 

[tks]

Dear Servall, Sankara and others:

Since the topic of Temple Visits, God, Religion and FATALISM are very intimately inter-twined, I am continuing this discussion here.

I hope this is okay with you.

________________________________________________________________

Dear Dr. tks Avl:

Since you have made a clear statement that you are "Neither a Theist nor an Atheist, I dare to ask you the following simple questions to clarify my assessment and understanding -

1. Have you heard of most poor Indians saying "God Giveth, and Man Taketh" or "Ellaam Aandavan Seyal" when it comes to large family, poverty and day to day suffering?

2. Have you also heard "It's ALL Pre-Ordained Nothing can be changed by anyone. But, what all we can do is just think of GOD all the time, and worship him. For Vithi Vazhiathu"

3. If you combine 1 and 2, I get the Essence of FATALISM. Do you agree? If not, please explain.

I define poor Indians as those who can't earn more than Rs. 150 per person per day.

The "GOD" here is defined as in my previous post to dear Raghy. The Abrahamic or Puranic God.

Thanks.

Regards.

Y

Dr Y Avl -

Item 1: I have heard that statement from very rich people also. So what?

Item 2 above: I already mentioned explicitly that the origin of Fatalism concept is from Islam since this idea is alien to Vedic teaching. I also mentioned that all rich and poor think that way across much of India . So what?

I also mentioned that Karma model is based on free will that is experienced by all of us and it teaches one to take 100% responsibility for one's actions. Fatalistic thinking is there in many parts of the world.

People in positions of power typically symbolized by wealth continue to exploit the weak using any and all feudal beliefs. A religion may teach that Good Lord has created all this for human beings. Therefore the human beings are ready to commit atrocity against animals - the meat that you eat daily is produced in a factory farm where helpless animals suffer for their whole life in utmost pain. Slavery existed and continue to exist (e.g., human trafficking ) even today because anyone with power will use any means to exploit others.

There are many who say it is all God's deeds and therefore see a hope to their their prayers with an unwarranted optimism that gets them through a tough time and eventually to attain what they seek. This is just an observation and merits a 'So what' as well.

So all these qualitative things cannot be taken in isolation to make any connection to large scale population explosion and suffering.

 

[Yamaka]

Dr Y Avl -

Item 1: I have heard that statement from very rich people also. So what?

Item 2 above: I already mentioned explicitly that the origin of Fatalism concept is from Islam since this idea is alien to Vedic teaching. I also mentioned that all rich and poor think that way across much of India . So what?

I also mentioned that Karma model is based on free will that is experienced by all of us and it teaches one to take 100% responsibility for one's actions. Fatalistic thinking is there in many parts of the world.

People in positions of power typically symbolized by wealth continue to exploit the weak using any and all feudal beliefs. A religion may teach that Good Lord has created all this for human beings. Therefore the human beings are ready to commit atrocity against animals - the meat that you eat daily is produced in a factory farm where helpless animals suffer for their whole life in utmost pain. Slavery existed and continue to exist (e.g., human trafficking ) even today because anyone with power will use any means to exploit others.

There are many who say it is all God's deeds and therefore see a hope to their their prayers with an unwarranted optimism that gets them through a tough time and eventually to attain what they seek. This is just an observation and merits a 'So what' as well.

So all these qualitative things cannot be taken in isolation to make any connection to large scale population explosion and suffering.

Dear Dr. tks Avl:

Thanks for your kind reply.

I don't understand your "So What" answers to Qn1 - Qn 2. I didn't talk about the "Rich" here. It doesn't matter. Leave the matter here.

Your assertion that FATALISM came to India from outside influence is totally wrong, and very misleading. Let us leave it at that.

I will leave the definition of Sathyam to Sanskrit scholars, for I don't know the language of Gods like Sanskrit, Arabic or Aramic.

Have a great evening.

Regards.

Y

 

[tks]

Dear Dr. tks Avl:

Thanks for your kind reply.

I don't understand your "So What" answers to Qn1 - Qn 2. I didn't talk about the "Rich" here. It doesn't matter. Leave the matter here.

Your assertion that FATALISM came to India from outside influence is totally wrong, and very misleading. Let us leave it at that.

I will leave the definition of Sathyam to Sanskrit scholars, for I don't know the language of Gods like Sanskrit, Arabic or Aramic.

Have a great evening.

Regards.

Y

Dr Y Avl-

It does matter! If you make an assertion about a belief system being seen among poor people I am saying 'so what' because it is seen among rich people also. KRS Avl already pointed out that one cannot make unrelated connections (and I am loosely paraphrasing) . I can sneeze and it may begin to rain. Then I cannot assume my sneezing produces rain. That would be a flawed logic.

I gave you reasons why Fatalism concept is believed among those that call themselves Hindus because in Hinduism which is an unorganized religion is supposed to be based on Vedic teaching and it does not teach this concept. Hence the conclusion that it came from outside Vedic teaching. Islam *preaches* Fatalism and India was under Islamic rule for centuries - hence that conjecture .

When you make statement about TRUTH, I wanted to point out it is non-trivial to define it. You dont need a translation of this word in Sanskrit to define it.

I am ready to leave the matter as it is .. but emphasize the importance of what SET accomplishments we all benefit from teaches us. Clear unambiguous definitions, clear statements of axioms, conclusions based on legitimate study/experiments, logical analysis recognizing that the domain of logic includes mathematics as well as formal logical frameworks. Of course always keeping an open mind to learning something new from all this analysis, study and experimentation.

There are some teachers that start out saying a given scripture is inerrant. That is not the best way to learn in my view since it is a conclusion one needs to arrive at if the scripture is about teaching and Not *preaching*

Peace!

 

[Yamaka]

Hello ALL:

I am back here with this -

Religions and Fatalism in India: Is it the Cause of Poverty in India?

The most dominant religion in India is Hinduism, perhaps the oldest of all Religions like Judaism in the world.

Religious minorities follow Islam (about 13% of the total population) and Christianity of various shades (about 3% of the total) in India. These are mostly converts from Hinduism because of economic or spiritual reasons starting around 900 AD because of Muslim rulers and the Christian colonialists and missionaries. However, the influence of Hinduism and its practices linger among all religious minorities. For example, Muslims have Dhurga Worship, which is similar to any Idol Worship of Hindus. And, giving Dowries to bridegrooms is there among Muslims, while it should be the other way according to Islam. Therefore, I focus on Hinduism and the Fatalism propounded by its teachings.

In India there are about 100 million educated (passing high school and above) people, most of whom are "doing well". This group is slowly and steadily starting to look at religion as a cultural link to the distant past, as most of the people of the West. They work hard and climb up in the ladder of economic prosperity. This group doesn't care must about the Fatalism of the Hinduism.

Now, let us talk about the rest of the people: About 1100 million Indians.

I consider this group as "Poor and Dirt Poor" who can't make more than $3 per day person because of poor education and skills.

All most all of this group of people will say "God Giveth, Man Taketh" "All is Pre-Ordained, Nothing can be changed by anybody" "There is a better world out there after Death" etc.

I contend that these Beliefs are based on the Puranic preachings and teachings of Hinduism (and other religions). Hindus MUST believe in the doctrine of "Poorva Janma Karma", which means whatever you or your family did in previous birth will linger around and affect your life in this birth and the future births (because Hinduism teaches Reincarnation and Rebirth of the Soul).

This FATALISM instructs the poor Believers to think of God all the time and worship HIM with prayers, poojas and bhajans many hours a day so much so they neglect to go to school, finish school, acquire useful skills and find good jobs.

Hence these Believers are largely Poor or Dirt Poor, and poverty begets poverty and the cycle continues.

This is happening in all poor countries of Asia, Africa and Central and South America.

I contend unless we get rid of this MIND SET of religion, Gods and FATALISM, it is very hard to eradicate poverty in these countries.

More later....

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

Yams, 50 years ago red china was also in utter poverty. lets say, a hundred years after, india becomes well off economically, let say, take the top ten in GDP, what your stand at that time would be?

 

[Yamaka]

Yams, 50 years ago red china was also in utter poverty. lets say, a hundred years after, india becomes well off economically, let say, take the top ten in GDP, what your stand at that time would be?

Hello Shiv:

Nice hearing from you.

Yes, prior to Chairman Mao & the Cultural Revolution, things were very different in China.

If you believe India will be prosperous (by per capita GDP) and will take the top TEN level in about 100-150 years, then I would say FATALISM has gone down for some mysterious reasons and ways.

I want to be clear here:

Since most of the readers and writers here in this Forum are very well off (all connected by super-fast internet), the Religion they follow is not the kind followed by the 1100 million Indians.

This sub-set of people have their "Own Personal God and Religion" according to their own view of the world of Gods and Religion although they come under the broad domain of Sanathana Dharma.

These people follow "Pick and Choose" type and "Have the Cake and eat it too" type of ambivalent variety of God and Religion.

In fact, I am no body to talk about such "Personal Gods and Religion". That's none of my business at all.

Therefore, I request people to get into the shoes of the 1100 million poor Indians and what THEY (poor people) perceive as their Gods and Religion (as I do) here.

More later...

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

Hello Shiv:

Nice hearing from you.

Yes, prior to Chairman Mao & the Cultural Revolution, things were very different in China.

If you believe India will be prosperous (by per capita GDP) and will take the top TEN level in about 100-150 years, then I would say FATALISM has gone down for some mysterious reasons and ways.

Yams, even if the same comes true, to substantiate your claim, you may also need to clarify the one below:

few millenia ago, when fatalism must have been at its glory in india, our civilization was indeed flourishing and ranking globally. Civilization, i mean, the material and instrumental side of human cultures :

indian civilization was on par or better of, when compared to roman,greek&egypt. hope you wont have any dispute on this claim.

how do you justify your claim here?

PS: i have asked this once before !

 

[Yamaka]

Yams, even if the same comes true, to substantiate your claim, you may also need to clarify the one below:

few millenia ago, when fatalism must have been at its glory in india, our civilization was indeed flourishing and ranking globally. Civilization, i mean, the material and instrumental side of human cultures :

indian civilization was on par or better of, when compared to roman,greek&egypt. hope you wont have any dispute on this claim.

how do you justify your claim here?

PS: i have asked this once before !

Hello Shiv:

Good question.

My hypothesis is BECAUSE of the Fatalism, slowly and steadily the Pre-Eminence of India has been eroding since the days of Mehrgarh (7000 BC) till today.

1. I have posited that Mehrgarh/Indus Valley Civilization was the Oldest of All Civilizations - even older than the Mesapotamians, Athenians and Mayan...at that time the primary worship was Sun, Earth, Rain as Naturalists.. there was also the prevalent Shaktism (Divine Mother God) and to a lesser extent Lingam worship. I contend the Fatalism was minimal at best.

2. Then Vedas came, followed by Puranas (1500 BC to 400 AD) and multiple godheads and FATALISM started its attack on the Society in earnest.

3. Always there was internal struggle between the Fatalism and Naturalism... finally Fatalism took over the heart and minds of the citizens in full blast till the SET (Science Engineering Technology came along around 1800s AD).

4. Since the Fatalism took over the entire Society, Indians were quite divided by the oppressive Caste Hierarchy, they were very weak as a Society.

Foreigners came and subjugated us: So much so, we did not and could not participate in the new world of Industrial Revolution, and there could not be a Cultural Revolution like that of Chinese because most Indians accepted the Fatalistic views like "Bhahavan Parthipar", "All because of Poorva Janma Karma; What poor people can do" etc etc.

Therefore, I posit that unless we walk away deliberately from the Fatalism of Gods, Spirits and Religions, SET can't do its job optimally. SET is changing the world for the better in all the Advanced land...

India can and will regain the Paradise Lost... But when? and how?

This is what I am talking about.

More later..

Cheers.

 

[ShivKC]

Hello Shiv:

2. Then Vedas came, followed by Puranas (1500 BC to 400 AD) and multiple godheads and FATALISM started its attack on the Society in earnest.

Cheers.

Uncle Yams, i would buy you and keep aside Indus Valley civilization.. but then, even if i were to take 400AD as the start of fatalism, the sub continent of asia (i would put it crudely as cow belt!) still flourished on par with global civilizations.

this is the time of flourishing of guptas, and starting of pandya dynasty who sailed over the seas to trade with romans. this is the time the medieval cholas freaked on this land to set their global stamps (as UNESCO says) with their signature on arts like carving/architecture/literature etc.

i dont know if the society lived below 150rs per day... i dont know the people of these kingdoms lived their life for fighting one square meal a day along with their life of slavery. i dont know if egyptians/romans/greek of that time lived the same way. but then, for sure, during that same span of time, the people of the land where you are living now ( i mean, Amerikkka) were making a living with stones/arrows, though i cent percent agree with you, that,they, while living in caves and tree tops, never believed in fatalism!!

uncle, justify this please.

 

[Yamaka]

Uncle Yams, i would buy you and keep aside Indus Valley civilization.. but then, even if i were to take 400AD as the start of fatalism, the sub continent of asia (i would put it crudely as cow belt!) still flourished on par with global civilizations.

this is the time of flourishing of guptas, and starting of pandya dynasty who sailed over the seas to trade with romans. this is the time the medieval cholas freaked on this land to set their global stamps (as UNESCO says) with their signature on arts like carving/architecture/literature etc.

i dont know if the society lived below 150rs per day... i dont know the people of these kingdoms lived their life for fighting one square meal a day along with their life of slavery. i dont know if egyptians/romans/greek of that time lived the same way. but then, for sure, during that same span of time, the people of the land where you are living now ( i mean, Amerikkka) were making a living with stones/arrows, though i cent percent agree with you, that,they, while living in caves and tree tops, never believed in fatalism!!

uncle, justify this please.

Hello Shiv:

Your points are very well taken.

1. However, what would be the RIGHT starting point for our comparative measurements of prosperity?

I prefer the glorious days of Mehrgarh and the IV Civilization, and you prefer the Gupta Dynasty. Fine. It's a matter of CHOICE.

Nowadays, one may say we need to forget the old stories, and compare only the time of pre-1992 and post-1992 prosperity, when the Fatalism remained constant. My answer to them is just look at who benefited the most during this relatively short time: India100 (the affluent 100 million people of India) benefited the most - these people are largely PRAGMATISTS who are going after wealth by higher education into Engineering/IT/BPO sector and equity participation in the Capital Markets. This small population is less of a FATALISTS, I contend.

Whereas India1100 (the 1100 million people) getting poorer by everyday because of the brutal forces of FATALISM, I posit.

2. As I used to say, America three century ago was largely a waste land: mosquito invested stretches of lands where buffaloes were roaming around. And here and there a few Red Indians were traveling on their horse back.

My estimation shows, around 1800 AD, the per capita GDP of India was nearly the same as that of Europe.

Earlier it was lot higher (2-10 times higher but slowly declining from 7000 BC) than that which was the attraction for Christopher Columbus to ask Queen Isabel for a Fellowship to sail to India! Alas...as a voyager he took a wrong route and ended up in Hispaniola and said "Oh.. these guys don't look like real " Black/Brown Indians", but reddish, hence the term "Red Indians" came into the history people say! Thus North America was discovered, although Amerigo Vaspuchi already landed on the Main Land of the US. (His name got buried in the History, LOL).

3. As AR Mugugadoss concluded in his movie "7am Arivu", India1100 must think first of "Science and SET" than God, Spirit and Religion to get out of the Fatalism, I contend.

SET will save everyone in the long run, I must say.

More later...

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

Poverty has many causes, some of them very basic. Some experts suggest, for instance, that the world has too many people, too few jobs, and not enough food. But such basic causes are quite intractable and not easily eradicated. In most cases, the causes and effects of poverty interact, so that what makes people poor also creates conditions that keep them poor. Primary factors that may lead to poverty include overpopulation, the unequal distribution of resources in the world economy, inability to meet high standards of living and costs of living, inadequate education and employment opportunities, environmental degradation, certain economic and demographic trends, and welfare incentives.

..:: Causes of Poverty ::..


Measuring poverty at the global level
When estimating poverty worldwide, the same reference poverty line has to be used, and expressed in a common unit across countries. Therefore, for the purpose of global aggregation and comparison, the World Bank uses reference lines set at $1 and $2 per day (more precisely $1.08 and $2.15 in 1993 Purchasing Power Parity terms). It has been estimated that in 2001, 1.1 billion people had consumption levels below $1 a day and 2.7 billion lived on less than $2 a day. These figures are lower than earlier estimates, indicating that some progress has taken place, but they still remain too high in terms of human suffering, and much more remains to be done.

Reasons for Poverty in India:
Population, Unemployment, Corruption, Unequal distribution of money.

Poverty in India - Cause of Poverty in India - India Poverty Causes & Poverty Scenario in India

When you have a simple answer for a complicated problem. LOL..

 

[Yamaka]

To all Religious Orthodoxy:

1. On "It's the Economy, Stupid" is the reason poor families have large families (3-5 children per family, in most families):

This is a very strange explanation. If truly economics of the family is the reason, then the behavior should be the other way around!

In fact, I recommend that the poor families wait till their economics of the family improves to have children: So that the expectant mother can eat well, infant can be fed right and toddlers can be fed and clothed well, send to schools.

A recent report said nearly 50% of our children are under-nourished and thus stunted in growth. This affects not only the families, but the entire human resources of the future India.

I hope God Almighty sees this paradox and helps these poor families. If HE sees and hears their cry via their prayers, poojas and bhajans: "God Giveth, and Man Taketh" " Merciful Kadavul Kaapathuvar". Is HE really All-Knowing and ALL-Merciful? Noooooo.

My son A and I are planning to adopt poor religious families (newly married couples - about 100 to 500) in India to test this hypothesis by linking with a local NGO: That these young couples will be given full contraceptives and advice in Family Planning according to "affordability" of having a child and guide them with a long term (20 year financial commitment) perspective of improving the economic status of their family. That's the Conscience of an Atheist. Lol

2. Is Fatalism the ONLY reason for the poverty in India? No, not by any means. But, in my perspective that's the 800 lb gorilla that people choose to ignore to their peril.

More later....

 

[ShivKC]

Hello Shiv:


Nowadays, one may say we need to forget the old stories, and compare only the time of pre-1992 and post-1992 prosperity, when the Fatalism remained constant.

2. As I used to say, America three century ago was largely a waste land: mosquito invested stretches of lands where buffaloes were roaming around. And here and there a few Red Indians were traveling on their horse back.

My estimation shows, around 1800 AD, the per capita GDP of India was nearly the same as that of Europe.

uncle YAM;s, tell you what, this is the age where you are in, with all the content family, with most of all aspirations met, i think, you should be content by sipping Jack Daniels than munching some ones brain

coming to the point..i agree with you the recent economic growth of 90"s was not of the majority of the indian populace. but you cleverly discounted my historical analogy. somewhere you said, the GDP of India was on par with europe in 18th century.i think , fatalism was at its high too in india.

now if you compare the recent growth, and want to confine it to select few, you need to draw parallels with red china's history. they had great walls like our tanjavoor temple, and theism was there at that time, so was their economy (excuse me here, for human rights violation). but china and india went for a toss for some years. land of God save the Queen was its heights for some time, and then america.

dont forget to read the fall of economical graph and political power of england on par with their rise of atheism!! here america's theism fares better than europe.

arent we getting confused here, to draw conclusion..

uncle, it would be nice if we both are up with few toss of JD on the rocks and have a chat about GOD and Poverty

 

[Yamaka]

uncle YAM;s, tell you what, this is the age where you are in, with all the content family, with most of all aspirations met, i think, you should be content by sipping Jack Daniels than munching some ones brain

coming to the point..i agree with you the recent economic growth of 90"s was not of the majority of the indian populace. but you cleverly discounted my historical analogy. somewhere you said, the GDP of India was on par with europe in 18th century.i think , fatalism was at its high too in india.

now if you compare the recent growth, and want to confine it to select few, you need to draw parallels with red china's history. they had great walls like our tanjavoor temple, and theism was there at that time, so was their economy (excuse me here, for human rights violation). but china and india went for a toss for some years. land of God save the Queen was its heights for some time, and then america.

dont forget to read the fall of economical graph and political power of england on par with their rise of atheism!! here america's theism fares better than europe.

arent we getting confused here, to draw conclusion..

uncle, it would be nice if we both are up with few toss of JD on the rocks and have a chat about GOD and Poverty

Hello Shiv:

Yesterday, I talked to my Chinese friends (fellow Scientists at my workplace who are not bothered much about Classical Theism) and asked them about Confusius, Taoism and Religious impact on Chinese Society before 1900s and after 1900s. They reminded me that

1. Chinese religions (Confusianism, Taoism, the two dominant Thoughts in their Society) are not typical Religions like Hinduism or the Abrahamic Religions where Super Natural Agent is the CORE Belief. Chinese religions are considered "Lofty Thoughts".

2. In Modern China since 1900s life was much better than life in pre-1900s. Irrespective of any Religious Thoughts.

3. In Modern China since 1910, the fight between the Communists and the Nationalists (KMT) was a watershed moment: Communists worried much about the majority in the Rural China and the KMT represented vastly the Urban Elite. Eventually, Chairman Mao's emergence in the Main Land China paved the way for real transformation of the Chinese Society: Communists declared that the PRC is an Atheist land (in my mind this was a very critical step towards GROWTH and TRANSFORMATION).

Rest is history...

Now, with State Capitalism, and the Single Party Rule, these Godless Communists are growing leaps and bounds, leaving behind the Ancient Land of India in the dust.

Yes, India is also growing... but it is seriously bifurcated as India9% and India91%... I am worried about the India91% which is losing the ground everyday solely because of poor education and poor skills fostered and maintained by the FATALISM propounded by the ancient Religion.

I always compare the growth and prosperity of India Vs PRC - The Red China because of the size of the population, and both were nearly in the same place economically up until 1900 AD.

For comparing India with America is very inappropriate and very cruel...

More later....

Cheers.

ps. I don't enjoy hard drinks much.. very rarely I try JD or Johnny Walker... I take red wine or champagne more often! Certainly, Yamakas are NOT Elitists! Lol.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Yamaka,

Do you think all the poor people are praying God with all their poojas and bajans with the sole motive of making themselves billionaire or to make them atleast belonging to upper class?

Do you think poor people who pray God with all their devotion, spending some money in temple poojas and at home, from whatever they could earn with out any sense of realizing the grace of God? Without realizing and feeling that they could some how pull on their family with some wage earning opportunity out of blue?

Do you think the excuse that some poor folks gives - "God Giveth and Man Taketh" (who infact want more children for more earnings through child labour), is a sort of brain washed realization that they could get out of their Fatalistic spirituality (that is nothing but brainwashing onself) and not just a pretance to justify their reasoning, concealing their motive?

Just because poor folks could indulge in spirituality for the reasons best known to them and based on what they could personally experience and feel the divine interventions, for which they could not give evidences to prove existence of God, do you determine that they are going out of mind due to their FATALISTIC belief systems?

Do you think that all the majority theists folks all over the world don't know that many erring folks and criminals are going scott free, many innocent people are made to suffer, many rich people have become paupers etc etc and still they are continuing to believe in God and spirituality without any sense and with out knowing the true purpose of spirituality / divinity in human life till death, with many things to be satisfied with? Having no personal experiences and realizations?



I have seen many well to do people screeming and abusing GOD for not able to achieve something that they desire and a slum dweller who truly praises GOD in all his glory with true bakthi and keeps trying to scratch the bottom of the barrel for something, with his sincere hardwork.


If Atheists like you claim that spiritual practices with belief in God is FATALISTIC, what I am thinking is - How proud Atheists can feel as NATURALIST believing in and respecting the Low of the Nature (that has nothing to do with God/Spirituality/Karma, as per atheists) when -

They could see injustice and corruption all around.
They could see innocent people suffer due family circumstances
They could see physically challenged people, by birth
They could see cruelty/war crimes around etc..etc..etc..

How could they hold the Rule/Law of the Nature at high esteem BUT the concept of God/Spirituality/Karma as Mind Blowing FATALISTIC belief? How could they distinguish "Law of the Nature" from "God/Spirituality/Karma" and how you balme the later for the prevailing poverty in India/Indian sub continent/Africa?

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Yamaka,

Do you think all the poor people are praying God with all their poojas and bajans with the sole motive of making themselves billionaire or to make them atleast belonging to upper class?

Do you think poor people who pray God with all their devotion, spending some money in temple poojas and at home, from whatever they could earn with out any sense of realizing the grace of God? Without realizing and feeling that they could some how pull on their family with some wage earning opportunity out of blue?

Do you think the excuse that some poor folks gives - "God Giveth and Man Taketh" (who infact want more children for more earnings through child labour), is a sort of brain washed realization that they could get out of their Fatalistic spirituality (that is nothing but brainwashing onself) and not just a pretance to justify their reasoning, concealing their motive?

Just because poor folks could indulge in spirituality for the reasons best known to them and based on what they could personally experience and feel the divine interventions, for which they could not give evidences to prove existence of God, do you determine that they are going out of mind due to their FATALISTIC belief systems?

Do you think that all the majority theists folks all over the world don't know that many erring folks and criminals are going scott free, many innocent people are made to suffer, many rich people have become paupers etc etc and still they are continuing to believe in God and spirituality without any sense and with out knowing the true purpose of spirituality / divinity in human life till death, with many things to be satisfied with? Having no personal experiences and realizations?



I have seen many well to do people screeming and abusing GOD for not able to achieve something that they desire and a slum dweller who truly praises GOD in all his glory with true bakthi and keeps trying to scratch the bottom of the barrel for something, with his sincere hardwork.


If Atheists like you claim that spiritual practices with belief in God is FATALISTIC, what I am thinking is - How proud Atheists can feel as NATURALIST believing in and respecting the Low of the Nature (that has nothing to do with God/Spirituality/Karma, as per atheists) when -

They could see injustice and corruption all around.
They could see innocent people suffer due family circumstances
They could see physically challenged people, by birth
They could see cruelty/war crimes around etc..etc..etc..

How could they hold the Rule/Law of the Nature at high esteem BUT the concept of God/Spirituality/Karma as Mind Blowing FATALISTIC belief? How could they distinguish "Law of the Nature" from "God/Spirituality/Karma" and how you balme the later for the prevailing poverty in India/Indian sub continent/Africa?

Dear Ravi:

Nice hearing from you.

1. At the outset I must say that most people in this Forum belong to India9% (one of the 100 million Indians doing economically very well .. they are all well educated, working hard to climb up the ladders of prosperity. They are all "religious" but of their own "personal" religion, and practice is "personal" as per their view of the world, although they come under the broad umbrella of one of the Organized Religions like Hinduism or the Abrahamic religions. These folks are LESS FATALISTIC and mostly not Superstitious).

I am mostly talking about the India91% (about 1100 million locked up inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty). I want you to be in their shoes to look at the world around them. I sense that most of India9% refuse to see the India91% at all even if they are all around them.... For them, the poor India does not exist.

2. Why or what I call as FATALISTIC? It goes back to my definition. If you don't agree with the definitiion then we don't talk about the same thing here -

a. All most all of India91% BELIEVE in the SNA - A Super Human SNA (Jesus, Krishna, Rama, Muruga etc and an unknown human face for Muslims) that controls ALL activities in this Universe ALL the time.. this SNA is supposed to be ALL knowing, ALL Merciful and ALL Powerful... Nothing moves or changes w/o this SNA- the Super Natural Agent.

b. They all BELIEVE that by constant prayers, poojas and bhajans one could bribe this SNA to get whatever they pray for.. (it could be a good education, a house, jewels, peace, harmony or whatever.. whatever).

c. All most all of the Hindus must obey the Doctrine of Poorva Janma Karma and the laws flow from it: ALL activities are PRE-ORDAINED, nothing can be changed..

In my view and understanding, a-c constitute pure and simple FATALISM, there is NO FREEWILL, period.

3. India91% follows this FATALISM and thus are neglecting their PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITIES so much so they remain largely less educated, less skilled and thus very poor... they BELIEVE that that's largely their JPK!! Alas...

4. As a Naturalist, I just admire the forces of NATURE like the human biological evolution that has been going on for billions of years, I admire Mr.Sun, Miss. Moon and the billion astral bodies in a New MoonDay.

I don't worship them, I don't ask for any favors from them.

As an Athiest, I allow my sense of FREEWILL to take hold of me.. and I act according to what I want to achieve in my life time..

If time permits, I cry for the India91% for their adament attachment to their FATALISM... that's the answer to my question

"Yaarukaha Azhuvan Yamaka"?


I hope I clarified my position, and the reasons for my hypothesis posited here in the title.

Take care.

Peace.



ps. The same argument holds true for the poor Muslims, Catholics and other religious people around the world... the FATALISM.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Yamaka,

Thank you for responding to my post, sparing your time and energy..

For me, your post #24, above, is the same repeated views of yours that you claim to be the truth behind spirituality in India, repeatedly.

I am dead tired due a 4 day hectic trip to various temples in TN. Got back home this morning only and am unable to continue in detail now.

For now, I would say that you are ignoring to grasp my contention.

I bet, 1100 million poor folks who all are locked up inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty are not sleeping round the clock, closing their eyes and doing nothing to help themselves survive better. Some Sluggish folks do exist, freaking around without working and responsibilities irrespective of what they believe, perceive and follow to live their life.

1100 million poor people are not poor due to their belief in God and spirituality. They are poor only because what limited they could get financially to improve their education/skills etc. Though these forlks belive in God and practice spirituality as they could, they are very much on their toes to work laboriously day and night and doing their best for their survival and that of their family members.

I have been to almost all the major cities/metros in India and have seem plenty of times as how people suffering in the Gates of Hell of Poverty are running from pillar to post, day and night to make money and survive.

You are just considering the status of abject poverty to substantiate your claims and saying that belief in God and spirituality among these poorest folks is FATALISTIC. You are refusing to accept that these folks are not blind folded that all pervading GOD will take care of them and they can just relax and survive without efforts.


I would like to know your opinion on the below which I feel you have ignored to answer specifically. I am copy pasting it from my previous post, in bold -

Do you think poor people who pray God with all their devotion, spending some money in temple poojas and at home, from whatever they could earn with out any sense of realizing the grace of God? Without realizing and feeling that they could some how pull on their family with some wage earning opportunity out of blue?