Dalit-dravidian matrix

[happyhindu]

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What would be possible ways to handle the following:

Dalit / 'dravidian' characterists -

1) They like to wear their 'caste' on their sleeve and proclaim it as loudly as possible. And then say they wanna be casteless.

2) They 'want' to be opprressed for political mileage. Otherwise how to reach the throne / gaddi - so they need to 'keep the country backward' to remain in the 'oppressed' state.

3) They typically believe Vaishnavism 'came from outside' and Shiva is 'native dravidian'; conveniently overlooking some native southie beliefs about Shiva and Vishnu being brothers-in-law.

And also overlook some yog beliefs that Shiva and Vishnu cannot 'exist' without one another. If there is no creator, then there is no mind and if there is no mind then how to perceive the creator. How does it matter if one seeks union with the lack of mind state or vast expanse state by expressing it in seemingly different ways.

4) They typically claim "aryan" is an outsider (this is such a colonial thingy since they were the ones that were 'aryan" wannabes and found people of some regions looking more like themselves and therefore gave them the "fully aryan" title together with the "state of being an outsider").

5) They overlook some studies that show that southie brahmins in general are as much southie as a good many other southie communities. All they want is to attack is the religion to make a fertile ground for a good 'harvest' later.

6) They have a few statements from a few books; which they will repeat and stick to, despite whatever explanations are given abt their other meanings (they also cannot accept the fact that some things were either never followed or are not followed anymore).

7) They find the most trivial reasons to bash hinduism. All other religions somehow or the other are the best or better than Hindusim to them. And they proclaim to be 'rational' - they forget that atheism too is a form of belief system.

8) They advocate forced inter-caste marriages. And then claim the brahmins are evil.

9) They overlook that their claim of being 'rational' contradicts with their "faith", that is adi-dharm in the north and 'political shivology' in the south.

10) Finally, hate is the most important component to their survival. They must hate no-matter-what and sustain the flames somehow or the other (since its the question of 'retaining' political power).

What is the best way to finish off this nonsense?

 

[happyhindu]

Am missing Kunjuppu-ji, KRS-ji, N-ji....please i hope everyone participates. Pannvalan-ji since you are around these days...am looking for your thoughts on this..

though the idea is to go abt it the peaceful sustained way -- is it possible?

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Happyhindu,

Until 1985, the hatred towards Brahmins in Tamilnadu was very high and more pronounced. After MGR came to power for the second time, this started dwindling.
Nowadays, no one practices that with the venom and vengeance of a small group of
people led by Veeramani and his clan.

But, I demand an explanation for these questions from the self-styled Dravidian leaders:

1. Why statues shall be erected for a person who advocated iconoclasm and
openly garlanded the pictures of Hindu deities with foot-wears?

2. How come they possess irrational beliefs n sentiments like ‘manjal saalvai’,
vaasthu, numerology etc?

3. Their movement started as a ‘self-respect movement’ in 1940s, but we see
many of them don’t feel shy when they fall at the feet of their masters, in full
public view. What kind of self-respect is this?

4. Once upon a time all the party men were part of one single family and now one
single person’s family members only dominate the party’s organizational set-up.
What a transformation?

5. Those who talk in some other language inside their home and Tamil outside,
are praised as guardians of Tamil. Does this happen in any other state?
(Ramasamy naicker was a Kannada Balija, who openly lambasted Tamil as
a language of the barbarians, but is called the ‘Father of all Tamils’). Can there
be a worse insult?

6. Actress Kushboo was dragged to court/s for airing some personal views openly.
But, Periyar had held still stronger views on the same subject and his speeches
as published in ‘Viduthalai’, ‘Kudiyarasu’ etc. are documentary proof to this.
He openly supported infidelity of both the genders and polygamy and polyandry.
(He encouraged women to have illicit affairs, with as many as possible, in the
name of freedom from the bondage of a family system). Why this hypocrisy?

7. Why even after 1967, when DMK was voted to power, atrocities against Dalits
are continuing, with the perpetrators being BCs, not Brahmins?

In general, people have learnt to see through their games and become wise. No one
takes the Dravidian leaders’ words at face value now. But, until and unless a viable
alternative emerges, let us wait.

I shall spell out our defence strategies in my next post.

 

[happyhindu]

Thankyou for the post Pannvalan-ji. Nice questions. My answers in brown.

1. Why statues shall be erected for a person who advocated iconoclasm and
openly garlanded the pictures of Hindu deities with foot-wears?

I won't be surprised if a day will come when the person who garlanded idols with foot-wear will get garlanded with foot-wear himself.

2. How come they possess irrational beliefs n sentiments like ‘manjal saalvai’, vaasthu, numerology etc?

They are obviously very confused b/w what constitutes 'irrational' and what constitutes 'rational'. By the definition set by their own hypocritical standards, 'rational' is anything to do with 'politics' and 'irrational beliefs' is anything to do with home.

3. Their movement started as a ‘self-respect movement’ in 1940s, but we see many of them don’t feel shy when they fall at the feet of their masters, in full public view. What kind of self-respect is this?

This is irrespective of any party in tn. All party members show 'that respect' for their leaders. Self-respect in politics obviously means 'anything to promote the self to stay in power'. We are not talking abt people who have anything called sense of self introspection; instead they live in the opposite.

4. Once upon a time all the party men were part of one single family and now one single person’s family members only dominate the party’s organizational set-up. What a transformation?

Yeah this is yuk for those that claim about everything being 'non-heredity'. But hey, these are 'politicians' - a seperate creed in themselves.

5. Those who talk in some other language inside their home and Tamil outside, are praised as guardians of Tamil. Does this happen in any other state? (Ramasamy naicker was a Kannada Balija, who openly lambasted Tamil as a language of the barbarians, but is called the ‘Father of all Tamils’). Can there be a worse insult?

This i can answer with some fair idea. Looks like Evr called Tamil language of barbarians bcoz he found lack of adaptability or something like that - he found somehting lacking in tamil - in his own way (i wudn't know if 'his way' is or was for the better or worse) - wanted more adaptability mayb to make room for possible growing vocabulary in present time. i don't think he spoke any other language at home other than tamil - he did love tamil - he also promoted non-tamils to speak tamil at home - called it going back to roots or something like that. in this matter and the next one let's call him a 'grey man' - neither dark nor fair - difficult to judge.

6. Actress Kushboo was dragged to court/s for airing some personal views openly. But, Periyar had held still stronger views on the same subject and his speeches as published in ‘Viduthalai’, ‘Kudiyarasu’ etc. are documentary proof to this. He openly supported infidelity of both the genders and polygamy and polyandry. (He encouraged women to have illicit affairs, with as many as possible, in the name of freedom from the bondage of a family system). Why this hypocrisy?

from what books written by evr i hv read, he shamed infidelity in men and asked women to take control of their lives by choosing a mate / spouse outside of marriage if the husband was not proper...i have no idea abt him promoting illicit affairs, etc

7. Why even after 1967, when DMK was voted to power, atrocities against Dalits are continuing, with the perpetrators being BCs, not Brahmins?

true...looks like the dalits have not yet learnt to open their eyes wide and see who exactly is doing the 'suppression', neither have they learnt to handle it at their individual level.

In general, people have learnt to see through their games and become wise. No one takes the Dravidian leaders’ words at face value now. But, until and unless a viable alternative emerges, let us wait.

unfortunately the 'leaders' always seem to indulge in 'divide and rule'. what are the alternatives? hope its abt collective development instead of any seperation or catering to any one specific community like dalit or non-dalit, etc.

I shall spell out our defence strategies in my next post.

Looking forward to it.

 

[pannvalan]

Once again I thank you, Happyhindu.

1. I lived in Erode for a year and the Periyar’s ancestral house was just one street
away for me. It has now been converted into a sort of memorial for him, stores
a huge array of all his writings and recorded/published speeches (in a Reading
room).

​

2. I stick to my point that they speak Kannada and Telugu at home. (They are
misunderstood as Kamma Naidu, whereas as per the Tamil inscription inside
Perumal Kovil in Fort area, Erode, they belong to Kannada Balija caste). Is it
not a surprise that his maternal aunt contributed for paving the granite pathway
inside this temple?

3. Haven’t you read Kannadasan’s ‘Vanavaasam’ and the excerpts/gist of various
articles/speeches of Periyar reproduced in Thuglak, in the aftermath of Kushboo
controversy? I have also read about Periyar’s vulgar and perverted prescriptions,
in M. P. Sivagnanam’s ‘Viduthalai Poril Thamizhagam’. He indeed urged
women, particularly those living in Tamilnadu, to openly revolt and break from
the shackles of the family unit. For him, the only way to do this was to have
relationship with so many men (aasai nayagargal - paramours), simultaneously.

4. It was more appalling/anguishing, when I read somewhere that Tirumalai Naik
who ruled Madurai, the seat of Tamil language, had remarked thus:

​

“Telugu Thetaa; Kannadam Kasthuri and Aravam Adhvaanam”- meaning Telugu
is as mellifluous as honey, Kannada is of sweet fragrance as kasthuri, but Tamil is
useless.

5. Coming to the defence strategies I propose, I list them hereunder.

(a) So long as the Dravidian parties confine themselves to pungent and sarcastic
remarks on Brahmins, just ignore them.

(b) If they indulge in physical threats and violence, let us be united and face their
onslaught, only to defend ourselves and not for any counter-offensive
measures.

(c) Let us not vote for these pseudo-atheists in elections, irrespective of whatever
party they belong to.

(d) Let us resist their actions in appointing atheists on the board of trustees for
Hindu temples, by resorting to legal recourse and through public campaigns
and peaceful protests.




(e) Let us expose their pseudo-secularism/atheism, in all possible ways.

(f) Let us create an awareness amongst the general public about the Arya-Dravida
myths effectively propagated so far and shatter them, by giving convincing
proof from Literature, Music, Paintings, Arts and Crafts, History, Archeology
and Anthropology. This requires massive efforts of so many experts drawn
from various fields. They may be either Brahmins themselves or sympathizers
of our cause.

(g) We shall educate the masses about how brahmins in Tamilnadu were
systematically weakened and robbed of all the immovable properties (land
holdings), divested of their pre-eminent social status, sidelined in politics,
relieved of the high positions occupied by them once – IAS officers, Doctors,
Engineers, Chartered Accountants, Lawyers and Judges, School and College
Teachers, Scientists and Mathematicians and Heads of major research
institutions - during the past 50 years.

This is not to extract their sympathy and to regain all that was lost, but to put
an end to this reverse discrimination and cultural decimation.

I am happy that economic liberalization and globalization have achieved, what our
silent struggle against the cultural onslaught by our political masters could not.
Recognition of merit and talent in education and employment have started happening
again, right here. Let us hope for the best, in the years to come.

Until then, let us speak with one voice.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Pannvalan-ji,

Thankyou very much for clarifying these things for me. I was under the impression that Evr spoke Tamil and encouraged non-tamil people to speak tamil at home because that was an idea that was sort of 'known' to some extended acquaintances and that's how it was told to me - there are some people i know who speak tamil at home, will completely deny anything with telugu, seek to erase their telugu origin / ancestry and in fact are very anti-telugu type (am wondering how do such things get to control ppl's minds like that). But you have given first hand information that he spoke kannada and telugu at home. Yes, i know he was balija not kamma for sure; most ppl who hung around him were kammas and that's how he kept getting misunderstood as kamma.

Your point 3 is difficult for me to digest. Let me have a look if he really advocated such things or did his followers modify his words to their benefit. Looks like the man had some mental prob. i mean i can't think of any normal person advocating an eye for an eye with the veri of a zealot in almost everything - it takes a depraved mind to keep seeking revenge in every form. Looks like some zealots have learnt from him on how to "prescribe things for women".

Did tirumalai nayak really say that? Is it some recorded statement? Or is it something 'attributed' to him by present-time damagers, like folks to the south of south who distinctinctively seek to upstage tamil nationalism and downgrade and defame anything that they see as not tamil in their eyes. Perhaps they hv no idea that the bulk of armies of these nayaks were made up of maravars and kallars with key positions being held by brahmins. They did not bring armies with them from andhra / karnataka. And there were a good many reasons why this support was extended to them. Preference to mother-tongue is natural. But yes, it is most known that they gave prime importance to sanskrit more than any other language. Yet to see if they disliked any language.

All your points you have listed out for defence are good. i think the arya-dravida myth is already broken. Me too have always been completely opposed to the appointing of atheists and politically affiliated ppl to temple boards. The main point is how to get our voices heard?

 

[happyhindu]

Pannvalanji,

Re-read and now got it:

I stick to my point that they speak Kannada and Telugu at home. (They are
misunderstood as Kamma Naidu, whereas as per the Tamil inscription inside
Perumal Kovil in Fort area, Erode, they belong to Kannada Balija caste). Is it
not a surprise that his maternal aunt contributed for paving the granite pathway
inside this temple?

Abt the maternal aunt you speak of: have heard that he was not supported by a good many members of his family. So, possibly what he himself was may not apply to the extended members of his family perhaps. Maybe he spoke tamil and his aunt's family may not have associated with his rhetoric in any way so her family continues to speak kannada-telugu - also explains the perumal temple association, or lack of professing atheism.

A small note abt the kannada balijas: trading groups v.likely from west coast / north karnataka, part of whom were converted to shaivism or continued to profess vaishavism. linga balijas are some sort of non-heredity classless casteless guys officiating in lingayat / shiva temples. Like some chettiar temple priests, these chaps do not wear poonal (or wear by choice, not complusary), do not beleive in caste by birth. evr's family was vaishnava, it is most likely he was not told all his life that caste is by birth - or he wud not have run off like that, in search of spiritual stuff.

Also its amusing that a primitive term very likely denoting a 'wild dog tamer' (later any animal / sheep / cattle tamer - early domestication of animals period (?) - therefore partaking its meaning as 'leader') is a different varna on the west coast and different on the east coast. (both were most active trading groups in colonial times. looks like trading ppl seem to have been the most mobile with far wider reach than warrior chaps; and therefore populated the world more, dribbling down south and further southeast asia since a very-very long time indeed).

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Happyhindu,

I feel guilty to hog the forum’s space any further, on this topic. I want to say a few more
things and conclude.

1. EVR’s father was a famous railway contractor and most of the land in the Old Agraharam
area belonged to them.

2. The Tamil inscription clearly refers to “Smt. ------ , Wife of Sri. Venkatappa Naicker and
Chithi of Sri. E.V. Ramasamy Naicker etc. etc.” (Balija is a corrupt form of Vanijya, meaning
trade in Sanskrit)

3. EVKS Elangovan’s wife and wife of one of my colleagues are sisters.

4. One of the notorious and provocative statements of EVR, on Brahmins was:

“If you happen to see a snake and a Brahmin together, leave the snake,
but hit that Brahmin”. (Paambaiyum paarppanaiyum oru sera kandal,
paambai vittu vittu, paarppanai mudhalil adiyungal)

5. Although EVR is credited with temple entry struggle at Vaikkom in Kerala, we are
startled at one of his statements on dalits. “Parachi ellam ravikkai pottukka
aarambicha, thuni vilai en eradhu?” (I feel sick to reproduce these words of his,
in this place). Moreover, Rajaji, Sathyamoorthy, P.T. Rajan, Vaidhyanatha Iyer
Pasumpon Muthuramalinga Thevar and others had already achieved it (Harijan
Alaya Pravesam) in many other places in Tamilnadu.

6. EVR’s political guide was Rajaji. Similarly, his legal advisor (Raman?), personal
physician were all Brahmins. I do not remember their names.

5. As regards Telugu population in Tamilnadu, these two were the major factors for
their en bloc migration from Andhra Pradesh.

(a) Establishment of Naik’s rule in Madurai in 16th century, that saw people of
all communities coming with their king, his attendants and their families.
(b) Due to indescribable atrocities committed by the Mughal rulers and the Nizams
at Hyderabad, people fled their native villages in AP and migrated to Tamilnadu,
fearing for life, to escape from forcible conversion and to safeguard their women
from the Muslim marauders.

6. Do you know that bands of ‘nagaswaram’ players and drummers (melam) also
came at this time (16th-17th centuries)? They were barbers too. (Got the cue?)
Nagaswaram is known as ‘Channaai’ in Telugu, akin to ‘Shehnai’, an instrument
of U.P. Muslims. Then no wonder that several muslim families are well-versed in
playing nagaswaram here? (e.g. Sheikh Chinna Moulana).

7. In Tamilnadu, Telugus account for 30 % of the population, most of whom have
lost touch with their language, place and relatives, except those living in Chennai
and other areas bordering AP. (A few still have their surname – inti peru, intact).
In every TN cabinet, minimum 3 or 4 Telugu ministers will certainly figure. Now
for instance, Arcot Veerasamy and KKSSR Ramachandran are Telugus. Vaiko of
MDMK is also a Telugu. (I can quote with authority, what castes of Telugus are
settled in which part of Tamilnadu)

8. A person who hails from one place, but settled in another, usually suffers from
feeling of insecurity. This forces him to learn the local language and gain mastery
over it, proving the adage ‘more loyal than the king himself’. That is why we see
many of these Telugus being known as Tamil scholars – e.g. Kaviyogi
Suddhananda Bharathi. Sometime back, the Secretary of Mumbai Tamil Sangam
was a Telugu man from Tamilnadu.

9. Thus, it will be clear that the Naik rulers did not employ the locals as Chieftains or
Ministers or in any other positions of critical importance, as stated by you.

All these I am saying only to make the history understood better, not to cast aspersions on
anyone. If any Telugu gets offended, I tender my unconditional apologies to him/her.

With this, I conclude my contributions to the topic under reference. I thank the administrators and the moderators of our forum, for giving me an opportunity to
record whatever facts I know herein.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Pannvalan-ji,

i thankyou very much indeed for your post. Please do not bother abt forum space and things like that - we are here for info exchange to make lives better for all.

i agree with you abt evr. Flipped thru the pages of one his books just sometime back, cudn't suffer it beyond 2nd page, sickening statements reeks of hate - which is why i make a clear distinction b/w humans as one group and politicians as a seperate group. He was and is disliked by as many non-brahmins as i know.

The telugu ppl being anti-telugus i speak are 2 ppl i know - they are desperately wannabe-tamilians, not against religion, etc. Am told those 2 are now avoided altogether bcoz it gets irritating to hear the same old story of praising tamil and deriding telugu; while the rest of their ilk simply cannot be bothered abt what is what.

The politicians you speak of: it is already clear nobody wants to vote for anyone since this past decade or so.

Abt the telugu population in tn, yes its true they came together with or after the nayak chieftains...as just fleeing immigrants, very likely not as soilders since most were in trading. As far as the armies of the nayaks being mostly kallar and maravar and key positions being held by brahmins is concerned - please refer to the books by David Ludden and Susan Bayly.

Unfortunately there are stories propagated abt them by a group of south that is good at propagating select things in certain ways, since they believe the sinhalese nayaks are the same as the telugu ones. Unless things are from an inscription or are recorded statements, am usually wary abt believing such stories from anywhere. Otherwise, their intent of divisiveness is something many fall prey to (anyways these nayaks are dead and gone, lets think more of the future than past).

These are people marooned on an island, cud not have avoided intermingling and mating with one another in ancient times (yep there is no diff in both populations according to some studies), both are occupants that came after the veddahs, but one styles itself as so-called aryan and another is a desperate-dravidian, when infact both are the same, both are equally militant in their approach and both create a hell lot of problems to themselves and to the world around them. The only diff is that one is a majority population, the other is a minority (the demographics seem to make the diff) - and being the majority, the onus is on this group to open its heart and arms first; and not indulge in merely military operations.

 

[vanam9394]

Tamil Nadu govt. appoints non-brahmins as temple archakas

Dear all,
Pl check the following link

http://www.tn.gov.in/pressrelease/pr260808/pr260808f.htm

Tamil Nadu govt. has decided to appoint non-brahmin priest in temples in Tamil Nadu. Pl note that Veeramani of DK party was involved in the meeting. What does fools like karunanidi has to do with Hindu temples in Tamil nadu ? He should just worry about getting Christian and Muslim votes and not meddle with temples in Tamil Nadu...

 

[srikrish85]

Can't we take weapons? If we are united we can easily trash Veeramani and his hooligans!

 

[happyhindu]

Can't we take weapons? If we are united we can easily trash Veeramani and his hooligans!

:yo: that wud be against the law Srikrish :biggrin1:

 

[vanam9394]

good start

Can't we take weapons? If we are united we can easily trash Veeramani and his hooligans!

Good start !! way to go !!

 

[happyhindu]

Good start !! way to go !!

Vanam-ji,

It takes a gross lack of culture to pick up weapons - not easy to bring a sword / huge knife down an animate live thing and see blood splash. And it takes total crudity to do it over and over again. Tht's why u don't see men in arms as cultured people, do u?

 

[vanam9394]

needful

we need to do the needful !! whatever method it may be

Vanam-ji,

It takes a gross lack of culture to pick up weapons - not easy to bring a sword / huge knife down an animate live thing and see blood splash. And it takes total crudity to do it over and over again. Tht's why u don't see men in arms as cultured people, do u?

 

[happyhindu]

vanam-ji,

abt your previous post...

called up 6 ppl, all 65+ ones, guess what - none is willing to accept a non-brahmin either for purohitam or homam...

according to one elderly man 'mana katha maneke telusu kada' - he chuckled when he said that...what he meant was in terms of, we know what we are, how to accept someone similar to us as a priest...hope u c it as a genuine openhearted sentence from a 70+ elderly man with nothing else to do but wait for yama-bhagvan - from his shoes am able to see why - generally for everyone, we like to see some one who caters to our own expectation or idea of who we think is holy - the expectation is within us..... in those days when someone worked hard in the field, or got all dirty with spillage of blood -- they sure wud have needed some spiritual succor at the end of it or to keep them going at it...naturally it might have been difficult to see someone similar as themselves offering a spiritual stance or something they might want to see as 'holy' - they wud have preferred someone removed from it all, living a life that fulfills their own expectations of what constitutes holiness ---

so who is to blame for the rigidification of classes - now i feel there is nothing called 'blame' in this at all - it is just that how things were in the past came about by the expectations of everyone...and even now ppl are unwilling to accept....so what 2 do.

abt your second post...mayb u r right.

 

[sharonmick]

This is greatly abiding the rules and rituals of Indian tradition. They say that they Don't believe in GOD and why do they bother about Priests and Prohithars?? . So what is the conclusion point they gonna attire by this?. The Brahmins associations are still sleeping by seeing all these.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sharonmick,

Personally I have not yet used the services of a NB priest. However, there are a few who have. One person says if a female caucasian can go to a vedic school, learn and officiate as a priest doing yagnas, then why not accomodate our own.....

The older generation always makes sense. Their level of understanding is something we have not yet reached. However, we are overwhelmed by the radical way the younger generation chooses to live its life (minus 30 ones). And we (middle aged generations) do not exactly fit into either mould. Its a sort of confusing situation for us and so, for us its just wait and watch and see.....

Yes politicians have no place to interefere in matters of religion - they should not and have no right to.