Cultural Attack

[hariharan1972]

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I don't agree to this opinion. Being the wife of an Ex-Sergeant, I could get the opportunity to live in Northern Parts of India. I have mingled with people from different Indian states. And also with Tamils belonging to other castes.
I can proudly say that Tambrahms are the ones who easily catch and speak Hindi fluently.
And I think no one will contradict me in this fact that Tamilians esp., Brahmins have the best English fluency in this country.

I agree with you on TBs ability to pick up a language.

I was making a general comment. This is not to suggest that TBs don't know hindi at all.

I don't know how many TBs try to learn hindi on their own volition when not forced by circumstances. I am most definitely not finding fault because the Dravidian parties clearly did their best to keep hindi out of reach of Brahmins.

Since they feared that hindi could be such an important differentiator, KKKs cleverly kept hindi out of bounds.

I don't know whether it has changed but the stigma of "Madarasi" for any SI in North was prevalent for a long time.

 

[Kothai]

"Madarasi"

I agree with you on TBs ability to pick up a language.

I was making a general comment. This is not to suggest that TBs don't know hindi at all.

I don't know how many TBs try to learn hindi on their own volition when not forced by circumstances. I am most definitely not finding fault because the Dravidian parties clearly did their best to keep hindi out of reach of Brahmins.

Since they feared that hindi could be such an important differentiator, KKKs cleverly kept hindi out of bounds.

I don't know whether it has changed but the stigma of "Madarasi" for any SI in North was prevalent for a long time.

You are correct.
This "Madarasi" reference is still there. I wondered many times why those NIs
cannot differentiate between the people of 4 South Indian states. They think that most of the SIs are black in complexion, eat Non-Veg and worship Jesus.
And if they want a SI in Hindi movie, they will put a Tamil Brahmin speaking worse Hindi as "Aiyo, Aao Jee, Malum Nai Jee" in a special Ragam which I have never seen in any Hindi speaking Tamil.
The only mistake which I have found in our Hindi is, we find it difficult to differentiate between Ka and Kha,Ga and Gha etc.
But this is not our fault, because as far as I know only Tamil has single Ka, single Ta etc.
But we are well ahead of them in English.

 

[lotus_quartz]

In North, 'Madrasis' have been the centre of ridicule and fun occasionally. But this was generally limited to less educated, less sophisticated crowds. As a (NI) person becomes better educated and more aware, the stereotype image of 'Madrasi' changes in his or her mind. In fact, one particular style of ridicule which I faced at some places was that a 'Madrasi' starts licking hand from the shoulder joint down to fingers while consuming 'Rasam saatham', eating 'Sambaar saatham' involves making 'laddu' of rice with sambar and throwing it with precisely controlled velocity so as to land inside the open mouth etc. etc.

The so called 'Madrasi' teachers, professors, officers, subordinates and others in North are generally reputed to have better intelligence, more honest and reliable simple people and treated with respect.

It is also very true that 'Madrasis' in north have exhibited exemplary prowess in picking up local languages and local dialects and are generally better in English than the rest of the people. As such, 'NI Madrasis' have generally fared better in life.

 

[ranjani]

Dear Neemami and Gautham,

Well ,all of what you people have said is quite true.I can't agree with you more;You see,this frd of mine had known that guy for quite a long time and to add to all this,they are best friends.I have even met him and he's a very decent guy;no doubt about that.He's everythuing a girl could ask for but sadly,his caste matters;I cant possibly talk to her about the problems she would face in the future because of her decision.I just dont know what to do.I know i am doing a major mistake supporting her.Not the kind of support you hear constantly from people;I let her talk and i'ma good listener.That way i feel i encourage her.I dont know how she'll take my words if i talk to her about it.But i feel very bad and have qualms about it whenever i talk to her parents.No,she's not a narcissist as you had guessed.She's pukka sensible but sadly doesnt know how to guide her own life;I feel sorry for her,i n a way.Let her decide her own life.Afterall,there's something called destiny taht cant be intervened with.But i shall try my best to advise her.Anyways,thanks a lot for your valuable responses.
Regards,
Ranjani

 

[gautham]

my thoughts were not specific to this friend

ms.ranjani

my thoughts were not specific to the friend of yours. nor did I call her narcissistic --how can I when I really dont know her?
All I can say in her case is that if she finds him good and if he is a good person then outsiders like me can never have a say obviously , save for the making the comment that perhaps there was a good chance she might have found an equally good if not better person in her own community if only she had tried a bit.


But my comments were general in nature -- for people who are in the future looking for lovers or marriage partners. They can use internet to look for good match and thus arrange their own love marriage which will be compatible in all respects-- culture they have been brought up does play a very important role in the success of their marriage.
Again the effort should be from both sides --boys and girls for this to happen.

Cheers
Gautham

 

[mrifan]

Skewed ratio of unmarried Brahmana women/men

I have seen that the ratio of Tamil Brahmana (Iyer+Iyengar) men to women is typically 2.5:1 in the following websites:

brahminsmatrimony.com
tamilmatrimony.com
shaadi.com
jeevansaathi.com

And a couple of other websites. It may indicate that either more men, or their parents, post their profiles compared to women, or there is a genuinely skewed ratio of unmarried Tamil Brahmana men/women. Given that one needs to become a member of the above websites in order to contact someone else, it is highly unlikely that women or their parents are not choosing to register at these sites. Also, as far as I am aware, very few Brahmanas practice female foeticide unlike some other communities, so the actual ratio of Brahmana women to men in the population should be relatively equal.

It may be that relatively few Brahmanas are using the internet for matrimonial searches, mostly relying on newspaper and magazine classifieds, where the ratios may not be so skewed. A grimmer explanation may be that many Brahmana women, particularly good looking ones, are getting taken out of the marriage pool in college or at the workplace. Until a few decades ago, Brahamana men and women were almost guaranteed to marry into a Brahmana household because of conservative attitudes and family pressures, preserving Brahmana culture for thousands of years. However, all that has now changed.

If the above skewed ratios on the internet are reflective of those in the general population, it is quite possible that nearly 2/3rds of unmarried Brahmana men are going to face problems in marrying into a Brahmana household. In another 2 generations, Tamil Brahmanas may end up like the Parsis of India, a tiny and irrelevant community looked upon with curiosity. For those of us who have been lucky enough to be able to find a Brahmana spouse, I feel it is incumbent upon us to at least try and preserve our culture for all communities in the future, since there is a very real possibility that our community may be extinct genetically in the near future.

Sociologists proclaim that it is the women of a community who are to a large extent responsible for preserving the culture. Some of the good values and principles of Brahmana culture, like non-violence, intellectualism, vegetarianism, spirituality etc, may then find its way into general Tamil society through the outmarriages.
​

 

[Kothai]

Hear, Hear!

Sociologists proclaim that it is the women of a community who are to a large extent responsible for preserving the culture.​

​

I totally agree to this and I am proud of being a woman in this matter. I think we can start a debating thread about this topic if anybody disagrees to this point.
Dear SFox, Chintana
Pl consider this....

 

[gautham]

I have seen that the ratio of Tamil Brahmana (Iyer+Iyengar) men to women is typically 2.5:1 in the following websites:

brahminsmatrimony.com
tamilmatrimony.com
shaadi.com
jeevansaathi.com

And a couple of other websites. It may indicate that either more men, or their parents, post their profiles compared to women, or there is a genuinely skewed ratio of unmarried Tamil Brahmana men/women. Given that one needs to become a member of the above websites in order to contact someone else, it is highly unlikely that women or their parents are not choosing to register at these sites. Also, as far as I am aware, very few Brahmanas practice female foeticide unlike some other communities, so the actual ratio of Brahmana women to men in the population should be relatively equal.​

It may be that relatively few Brahmanas are using the internet for matrimonial searches, mostly relying on newspaper and magazine classifieds, where the ratios may not be so skewed. A grimmer explanation may be that many Brahmana women, particularly good looking ones, are getting taken out of the marriage pool in college or at the workplace. Until a few decades ago, Brahamana men and women were almost guaranteed to marry into a Brahmana household because of conservative attitudes and family pressures, preserving Brahmana culture for thousands of years. However, all that has now changed.​

If the above skewed ratios on the internet are reflective of those in the general population, it is quite possible that nearly 2/3rds of unmarried Brahmana men are going to face problems in marrying into a Brahmana household. In another 2 generations, Tamil Brahmanas may end up like the Parsis of India, a tiny and irrelevant community looked upon with curiosity. For those of us who have been lucky enough to be able to find a Brahmana spouse, I feel it is incumbent upon us to at least try and preserve our culture for all communities in the future, since there is a very real possibility that our community may be extinct genetically in the near future.​

Sociologists proclaim that it is the women of a community who are to a large extent responsible for preserving the culture. Some of the good values and principles of Brahmana culture, like non-violence, intellectualism, vegetarianism, spirituality etc, may then find its way into general Tamil society through the outmarriages.​

Mr Mrifan

You are right about the brahmin women lured away.
It is actually due to the media in TN that brahmin girls are brainwashed into believing that they are doing something heroic and fantastic by marrying NBs, muslims and Christians. The cinema, serials and politicians and FM radios all do only this propaganda as their primary work.
That is why brahmin women marry outside the caste and lose their culture. When a brhamin girl marries outside the caste she is not anymore able to preserve the brahminical values because her NB husband forces her to change. I have seen this happen in many cases in fact most cases. So the brahmin culture and high values are lost due to the propaganda by politicians and media dominated by non Brahmins.
Wonder when our sisters will realize this? It is the duty of every brahmin parent to tell their daughters about this propaganda and tell them to search for partners within brahmin community first. By getting partners within the community they do indeed serve not only the community but the society as a whole since they thus preserve the noble characters and live as a noble role model for the non Brahmins and others.

Cheers
Gautham
:ranger:

 

[Chintana]

Fear not!

Dear all,

It is perhaps true that the ratio between Brahmin men and women are getting skewed. I have not looked at the statistics.

But do not worry about those who seem to move away from the fold.

Because, to remain a Brahmin requires total courage in today's context. There is no person more powerful than a yogi. Brahminical ways prepare one for a yogic life. If there are those who do not want to be a part of that, that's their choice.

Those of us who remain, please do not despair. There is nothing that cannot be achieved by self-effort and prayers.

First, please prepare yourself mentally to attract a good partner. Begin to develop the right qualities within - try to introspect, make corrections and prepare to receive the right one in your life. Each moment of this process should be imbued with faith in God.

To have faith is to be able to believe that the results are going to come even before you have seen them.

As Brahmins let us make our faith work for us.

As to women holding up the culture - of course! Is this even a topic for a debate?!!

These are only my opinions, so please treat them as such.

 

[chanakya]

Things to ponder

I think this discussion came up very well. I see some good points to ponder.
1 ) One of our member suggested guys to concentrate on the food. Its been a long dilema I had. I have heard from many doctors that veg is the best food for human beings. And to specifically mention my both side grands live(d) for 80+yrs and till death they were strong. In fact my grandpa used to cut woods at the age of 80. I think we need not blame our food.
2) Brahmin guys had to concentrate on their studies to come with flying colors. So they dont have time to propose etc. In present days those who fall in love also take care of their studies and that too after they fall in love they concentrate more on studies.
3) One pointed out that we should have a community gathering often. i totally agree with this point. In fact eventhough I had lot of oppurtunity during my college days I had the shyness to speak to girls. We should encourage such gathering and mingling and nowadays we can find lot of oppurtunities for that. And more important is that gathering should start in the early ages. Once they reach 10th every person develops their own interest and area and friends. And more important the gathering should be organized by more friendly elders rather than conservative police.
4)The gathering can be used a place to teach our folks the values of our Brahmin culture.
5)One of the response was like many of us had the confusion over our identity. Its true. I think a seperate thread should come up with what is our identity. It is a must to group ourselves. BUT IT SHUD BE FLEXIBLE TO CHANGES(Only changes are unchangeable).
My one point is ******* by birth. Whoever feels proud to say I AM *******.
6)I also see some of our people having division on our subsect. I request all our members to shun the thought. Whomever you meet with those ideas try to change their thought. Make them UNDERSTAND that WE ARE ******* and the need,reality of feeling that we are *******.

Moderators why cant we have a thread to analyse who we are - Our Identity? Also I would like to know apart from upanayanam is there any social gathering of our community organized by *******. If not why cannot we start thinking of that.

 

[Chintana]

Chanakya,

Please refer my responses in maroon italics below...

I think this discussion came up very well. I see some good points to ponder.
1 ) One of our member suggested guys to concentrate on the food. Its been a long dilema I had. I have heard from many doctors that veg is the best food for human beings. And to specifically mention my both side grands live(d) for 80+yrs and till death they were strong. In fact my grandpa used to cut woods at the age of 80. I think we need not blame our food.

Vegetarian food is great food. If one makes sure that one eats all the different varieties that have been prescribed, nothing like it. Top it off with a little hatha yoga and you are on your way to the pinnacle of health.

2) Brahmin guys had to concentrate on their studies to come with flying colors. So they dont have time to propose etc. In present days those who fall in love also take care of their studies and that too after they fall in love they concentrate more on studies.


3) One pointed out that we should have a community gathering often. i totally agree with this point. In fact eventhough I had lot of oppurtunity during my college days I had the shyness to speak to girls. We should encourage such gathering and mingling and nowadays we can find lot of oppurtunities for that. And more important is that gathering should start in the early ages. Once they reach 10th every person develops their own interest and area and friends. And more important the gathering should be organized by more friendly elders rather than conservative police.


4)The gathering can be used a place to teach our folks the values of our Brahmin culture.

We need Chennaiites to help us here. Is anyone out there willing to offer one's terrace or backyard for frequent gatherings? Would you like to find out Chanakya? It will be nice if you could spearhead this effort.

5)One of the response was like many of us had the confusion over our identity. Its true. I think a seperate thread should come up with what is our identity. It is a must to group ourselves. BUT IT SHUD BE FLEXIBLE TO CHANGES(Only changes are unchangeable).

My one point is ******* by birth. Whoever feels proud to say I AM *******.

Please refer to the threads Who are we? - Parts I and II.


6)I also see some of our people having division on our subsect. I request all our members to shun the thought. Whomever you meet with those ideas try to change their thought. Make them UNDERSTAND that WE ARE ******* and the need,reality of feeling that we are *******.

Moderators why cant we have a thread to analyse who we are - Our Identity? Also I would like to know apart from upanayanam is there any social gathering of our community organized by *******. If not why cannot we start thinking of that.

Also look up other threads on rituals, ceremonies etc.

Regards,
Chintana

 

[mrifan]

Give and take

6)I also see some of our people having division on our subsect. I request all our members to shun the thought. Whomever you meet with those ideas try to change their thought. Make them UNDERSTAND that WE ARE ******* and the need,reality of feeling that we are *******.

I think the keywords are tolerance and respect for each other's beliefs. If all Brahmanas remember that they are descendants of the sapta rishis, all these subsect differences will be relegated to the background. In fact, even respect and tolerance towards other Hindus who do not have antagonistic feelings towards Brahmanas should be the norm. After all, they are also members of our faith, and part of Bhaaratavarsha. We have to live together in peace and harmony with others, while still being able to follow our own distinct customs and traditions.

 

[sriniranga]

Kothai:
What u said is correct (dowrry)... but We have different culture. Lot of intercast marriages husband and wife are going for diverse due to different culture and habits...

 

[sriniranga]

sorry
divorce..

 

[lotus_quartz]

Typing up in knots ? Interesting paradox. Falling in love presupposes ability to look beyond the walls of caste, colour or creed.

But the kind of extreme right wing response I find on this forum, I have genuine doubts whether majority of tambrams have given up their orthodox stance on caste issues, especially when it comes to weddings and diet and decide to try their luck in the greasepole of love !

It would be interesting to study the psychological build up of tambram boys of say 18-26 age group and for tambram girls of similar age group. It may dispel the notion in many people's mind that tambram girls can be easily lured away by non-tambrams by showcasing their latest bikes, rayban, general display of wealth and power.

Thousands of years of conditioning and indoctrination can not be washed away so easily. Agreed ? So there is plenty of hope for the eligible bachelors among members of this forum !

2) Brahmin guys had to concentrate on their studies to come with flying colors. So they dont have time to propose etc. In present days those who fall in love also take care of their studies and that too after they fall in love they concentrate more on studies.

 

[Chintana]

Dear LQ,

The maroon letters are my words.

But the kind of extreme right wing response I find on this forum, I have genuine doubts whether majority of tambrams have given up their orthodox stance on caste issues, especially when it comes to weddings and diet and decide to try their luck in the greasepole of love !

Given the way the swing to the extreme left has left us grappling for identity and has in general created such a confusion and mess in our lives I don't think accomodating some right wing views are bad.

I also happen to disagree with the term 'extreme right wing'. I believe several of us in this forum are very careful thinkers.

I, for one, will adopt anything that makes sense to me. If tradition makes sense, I will take that. If modern ways make sense I will take that too. I won't reject anything simply because it is tradition or modern - 'right wing' or 'left wing'. I will try to look beyond labels and understand a thing for what it is, without getting caught in these fancy terms.

All this right wing left wing business reeks so much of inapplicable Western concepts and it annoys me greatly.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Dear Chintana,
Sorry. That was my mistake. I should not have made a sweeping statement. I agree that several members have extremely balanced views and their thoughts and musings are a pleasure to go through.
LQ

PS:- Rang laati hai hina paththar se takrane ke baad. Aapke maroon italics ke saamne achche achchon ka dabba gol ho jaata hai !

 

[Chintana]

Dear LQ,

Dear Chintana,
Sorry. That was my mistake. I should not have made a sweeping statement. I agree that several members have extremely balanced views and their thoughts and musings are a pleasure to go through.
LQ

Apology accepted!

PS:- Rang laati hai hina paththar se takrane ke baad. Aapke maroon italics ke saamne achche achchon ka dabba gol ho jaata hai !

Ouch! I hope the 'hit' wasn't that hard! Thanks for your compliments.

 

[silverfox]

SO!........... Chintana, you are fluent in Hindi, too? Then pray tell what Lotus_quartz is saying!!

Quote:
PS:- Rang laati hai hina paththar se takrane ke baad. Aapke maroon italics ke saamne achche achchon ka dabba gol ho jaata hai !

Ouch! I hope the 'hit' wasn't that hard! Thanks for your compliments.

 

[hariharan1972]

what it means !

SF,

Roughly put - LQ was conveying the fact arguing with Chintana was like going against brick, head first. (Hence the 'ouch'). Also he says that her maroon italiced posts could send the very best undercover.

Chintana - It is so appropriate that you choose 'maroon' as your colour, since with unfailing regularity most of us are 'marooned' in the sea of logic, class, quality & empathy that you bring in your posts.

A poetic justice is the fact that the other gentleman with similar credentials is aptly titled 'KRS' - representing Krishna Raja Sagar, the dam at Mysore – another massive (water) body of knowledge

 

[Chintana]

SO!........... Chintana, you are fluent in Hindi, too? Then pray tell what Lotus_quartz is saying!!

Quote:
PS:- Rang laati hai hina paththar se takrane ke baad. Aapke maroon italics ke saamne achche achchon ka dabba gol ho jaata hai !

Ouch! I hope the 'hit' wasn't that hard! Thanks for your compliments.

PS:- Rang - color
laati hai - (it) brings
hina - Mehndi
paththar se - (with) stone/rock
takrane - bump/crash
ke baad - after.
(Mehndi brings color after being crushed by the rock)

Aapke - your
maroon (maroon!)
italics
ke saamne - (in) front
achche achchon ka - (of) big and note worthy
dabba - box/container
gol - (more likely GUL - means disappear)
ho jaata hai ! - (it) happens

(With your maroon italics, even the big guns are cut to size / or even the giants are stopped in their tracks.)

I don't consider myself fluent in Hindi. I do get the gist of what is conveyed, thanks to watching a lot of Hindi movies.

I thought I understood the meaning of LQ's words but checked with a Hindi-speaking friend before I wrote my comments. I discovered I was right.

I don't claim to know everything but do try to understand what I do.

 

[Chintana]

Dear Hari,

SF,

Roughly put - LQ was conveying the fact arguing with Chintana was like going against brick, head first. (Hence the 'ouch'). Also he says that her maroon italiced posts could send the very best undercover.

Thanks for this. Much appreciated.

I think SF knows Hindi very well, having spent a good part of his life there (as I understand) and he was trying to check whether I knew what I was saying or not.

Actually the 'Ouch!' was from me.

Chintana - It is so appropriate that you choose 'maroon' as your colour, since with unfailing regularity most of us are 'marooned' in the sea of logic, class, quality & empathy that you bring in your posts.

Many thanks for these good words.

A poetic justice is the fact that the other gentleman with similar credentials is aptly titled 'KRS' - representing Krishna Raja Sagar, the dam at Mysore – another massive (water) body of knowledge.

Why the term justice?

KRS is certainly very knowledgeable.

Regards,
Chintana

 

[silverfox]

So... Hari!
Does that make me (SF) as "Stupid Fool" or "simpleton and fool"?!!!

On a serious note, I wholeheartedly agree Lotus_quartz and Hari on their comments about Chintana.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Hariharan, Sri LQ Ji and Sri Silverfox,

I agree with all of you on your comments about Sowbhagyavathi Chintana Ji. She combines remarkable intelligence with wisdom that usually comes only with age!

I thank Sri Hariharan for his kind words. I am like a quarter filled vessel with water. I always slash and roll, trying to tell the world what little I know. I know a wee bit about a lot of things and not a lot about a lot of things.

I thank Sri Silverfox and other founders of this Forum for giving me the opportunity to show off my ignorance!

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Chintana]

So... Hari!
Does that make me (SF) as "Stupid Fool" or "simpleton and fool"?!!!

Although this question is for Hari I don't think I am out of line by answering this.

No, that just makes you a textbook definition of a Brahmin - that questioning attitude.

We were a community formed as a result of arguments, debates and convictions.

You tested me. It just so happened I passed your test. Had I been arrogant and not done my homework you would have caught me and thus dented my credibility.

This is exactly how we should treat people who claim to be authorities, including the scriptures.

Test, see the results - only when you are convinced you proceed. Holds good for every piece of message in our scriptures.


On a serious note, I wholeheartedly agree Lotus_quartz and Hari on their comments about Chintana.

Many thanks for your compliments. I do what I can and am very happy that it is meaningful and useful to those who read my words.