• This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
  • Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Changing Gothram

Status
Not open for further replies.
??

what on earth??

just by making you wear poonal the girl's parents are willing to marry their daughter to you?

and your gothram changes after you wear poonal?

if they had sufficiently liked you as a groom, not sure they wud have made such pre-conditions..
 
??


if they had sufficiently liked you as a groom, not sure they wud have made such pre-conditions..


Dear HH,

I think we should appreciate the groom side.. They have only relaxed the traditional norms, for him.

I dont know whats the issue with him, in accepting that....
 
Dear Sri cpsarathy Ji,

A man can not change his gothram, per definition of it. Gothram represents the passing down of 'Y' Chromosome from one of the original rishis through the males (females do not carry this chromosome).

As Sri Ramachandran Ji pointed out elsewhere, males through their sperms give 'soul' to a person as the mother's egg only provides for physical body (this is the belief). So, gothram is identified for the males to worship one's forefathers who have given us the 'souls'. Again this is the belief.

Based on this, what your girl friend's parents are asking makes no sense. Seems to me that they are following some 'mooda nambikkai'. If you love the girl and if this is the only impediment to marrying her, then what is the problem? Just by saying that you have changed your gothram is not going to change it. The only side effect is that if you believe in worshipping your forefathers through rituals, by changing the gothra you will be worshipping your wives' forefathers. In the end, each one of our forefathers are every one of our forefathers!

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Sri cpsarathy Ji,

A man can not change his gothram, per definition of it. Gothram represents the passing down of 'Y' Chromosome from one of the original rishis through the males (females do not carry this chromosome).

Shri.KRS,

according to the science of genome, you would have a problem to tally you logic with 'matriarchy'' , which is widely a popular tradition amongst Harappans/Kerala Nairs/Kshatriyas..
They all followed this system for unknown generations..


>>>Based on this, what your girl friend's parents are asking makes no sense. Seems to me that they are following some 'mooda nambikkai'. >>

If the boy truly loves that girl, the he should also take part in the give-take policy.. I think, sarathy, should go with what her would be, is asking.. Nothing wrong... After all, love is nothing but sacrifice..I think, we both are driving the same point here.
 
Last edited:
dear sapr333,

This is not 'my' logic. I have outlined the belief behind the gothras in our customs. Hindu culture is mainly patriarchical.

I specifically did not go in to the merits or de-merits of this system. This is why I said 'thse are beliefs', according to Hindu customs.

Regards,
KRS


Shri.KRS,

according to the science of genome, you would have a problem to tally you logic with 'matriarchy'' , which is widely a popular tradition amongst Harappans/Kerala Nairs/Kshatriyas.. They all followed this system for unknown generations..
 
dear sapr333,

I specifically did not go in to the merits or de-merits of this system. This is why I said 'thse are beliefs',

Regards,
KRS

Thanks.. indeed, you have a valid point, shri.KRS
 
Sri cpsarathy !
I feel there is something wrong some where - HH may be correct.
(KRS sir -thanks for your nice explanation.)
I only know people can't marry within the same Gothra. To marry Groom and bride Gothras should be different. I know both brahmins and N Brahmins have gothras.
Then why should they oppose.
I think girl's parents want to show/declare their people that you are a brahmin.
If you don't feel for this act (don't ask me what type of feeling?) then wear a punal and marry her. All the first three Varna people (Brahmana, Kshatriya and Vaisya) used to wear Punal
 
thanks adiyean,KRS, HH

Adiyean you are right her parents wanted to show that i have converted to brahmin, is there a way to change like that. i dont believe in caste, i purely do it for her.
 
A man can not change his gothram, per definition of it. Gothram represents the passing down of 'Y' Chromosome from one of the original rishis through the males (females do not carry this chromosome).

As Sri Ramachandran Ji pointed out elsewhere, males through their sperms give 'soul' to a person as the mother's egg only provides for physical body (this is the belief). So, gothram is identified for the males to worship one's forefathers who have given us the 'souls'. Again this is the belief.
Sir,

I have actuallly been wondering why did this belief come up (of women not giving 'soul' to the child, being silent spectator in creation, and so on) for quite some time now. Honestly, it still does not make sense to me (since both a man and woman play an equal role in 'creating life'). Only wish we had a system where men and women are both considered equally important to a child (just in case it is not considered that way).

What i have been thinking is that 'perhaps' the male pithrus need to be appeased because there are many more y-chromosome linked mutations passed on as diseases than x-linked ones (which in fact are few, 'mothers' seem to be fairly harmless in the survival scenario). Men in fact are supposedly the weaker sex in terms of being prone to a lot more health conditions than women. And perhaps that is why the male side needs to be 'worshipped', to placate 'it', appease 'it', so that some divinity or 'modificational energy' is invoked to ensure healthy generations.

I was also talking to one monk asking him why villages are gothrams for some people. He said that in the old times branches of rishi gothras started being named after a prominent person, like someone who established a branch of the same people in an other place. This was to accomodate growth in population. When populations grew, many sub-branches, sub-sub-branches and further divisions kept getting established. By this time, people had spread out in 'far off' places.

When numbers grew even more, and people branched away further, villages started being used to identify a branch (since the branches wud create and settle in new villages, the village names became an identifier). Naturally everyone in the village wud not be doing same occupation, but they wud be the same gothra. Over time many people in various occupations forgot their gothras, except the ones that needed to remember it or mention it during prayers. It was for this reason, that when people reverted to hindu after being buddhist or jain, they took on village names as gothras, since that was acceptable in hindusim at that time as a gotra branch identifier. Therefore one sees all kinds of gotras being mentioned during archanai (like names of rishis, names of gods like Shiva and Vishnu, some ancestor names, village names, etc as a gothras).

Methinks this whole idea of using village names is common in the old southindian names, not seen in the north. Many northies also do not have gothras (while performing a homam, it is common for a priest to mention his own gothra or give his own gothra to the client, since many northies were filled in as the 'kshatriya' group). So it maybe possible that this old gotra system, as mentioned by the monk, was created and followed in southindia or by people who later came to be called southern-indians.

It may also be possible that a section of the northies were actually matrilineal tribes (among some punjabis the mother whispers the name of the child into the baby's ear thrice during namakaranam, not the father); though they are actually considered patrilineal people (did this crossing over of becoming patrilineal happen in the puranic times ?). Also many southies do have a village name affixed to their name but profess non-village gothras like vashista, vishwamitra, kashyapa, etc...probably this too happened in the puranic times..its like old wine filled in a new bottle or like naming a child back again after one of his ancestors after 2k generations perhaps.

Anyways, all this is based on conversations with a guru. I have no way to autheticate it.
 
Last edited:
Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

Please do not try to find a sane reason as to why our religion is in large part patriarchical. Due to circumstances in our history's 'middle' and 'dark' ages, this came to be. I wish we have Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji amongst our midst today to explain how this came about.

Lord Ardhanari was by no means an accident. Somehow the power of Shakthi is relegated to a subordinate role. I guess a culture as aged as ours evolves based on what is required to survive.

To me, unless there is the yin, there is no yang. Unless there is Shakthi, there is no atman. This tells me that an atman has to comprise both qualities. And when goes beyond that to Pramatma, the identification with a particular sex disappears. This tells me that a soul is neither male or female, or it is both.

Regards,
KRS
 
I have been away for some time and I am back.
Gothra is of different types.Traya Rishae,Pancha Rishae, Spatha Rishae etc.One is supposed to be in the direct male line of the Principal Rishi in the Gotra.As per Hindu Customs as laid down by the various Sutras even marraige beterrn common pravara is objected.But now only the same gothra marraige is not supported,In the 1927 period an Act was passed for India by the British Parliament (?) Swa Gothra Marriage validation Act.But it all boils down to prevent intermarraige in the old days
 
Dear Sri Pbkhema-ji,

I think you are refering to the gothra system as instituted in the puranic times by the dharmashastras.

I do not think gotras mean biological descendency. If so, then there must some match between people who profess the same gothra, same shakha, atleast in the same linguistic group. Instead, i think most part of the present day gotras are from spiritual decendency or guru-shishya parampara.

Regarding the branching of various gotras into various sub-units, sub-sub-units and further branches all the way to village names, i am probably talking of what was the older gotra system, though i have no means of authenticating it.

If you go to a temple and find someone is mentioning Shiva or Vishnu as a gotra, probably they are reffereing to their thalaivar or person who established them, a branch of people in a new settelement. One set from that branch may have gone on to create another village someplace else, after several branches in between. And that village name may be professed as the gothra of those people.

What it all does boil down to, is that all share the same forefathers, though am not sure they shared the same foremother.

However, ages before all these things developed, humans worldwide descended from just one mother, dubbed the mitochondrial eve, who was from Africa.
 
I did mean biological decendancy.This view is confirmed in several books.You may have read in the Newspapaer of violent cast panchayat decisions in North India where the same gotra marraige wasset aside by the panchayat as being marriage between brother and sister.
The subsuduary risihis are in the guruparampara or original matrilineal connections
 
I did mean biological decendancy.This view is confirmed in several books.You may have read in the Newspapaer of violent cast panchayat decisions in North India where the same gotra marraige wasset aside by the panchayat as being marriage between brother and sister.
The subsuduary risihis are in the guruparampara or original matrilineal connections

Dear Sri Pbkhema-ji,

I wud be glad if you cud provide names of books that provide lists of biological descendency. Supposed-geneology of the decendency kind was written / created during the hindu renaissance in the post-buddhism period. Dharmashastras enforced it. I was told that brahma of puranas was used to construct decendency, and found it rather dubious. Nor do i think that sun god and moon god lived on earth.

Whatever info you provide, atleast it cud throw light on why people do not find matches with one another despite professing the same shakha, speaking the same language, even living in the same region..

and what are original matrilineal connections?
 
Last edited:
gothra

Hi Everybody

In case we have to prove whether gotra descendancy is true based on ancestors, we need to collect data genetically and gather Y chromosome from the same gothra people of different caste and validate, for example let us say somebody has kashyapa gotra or kaushika gotra or vishwamitra gotra all throuhout india then we need to gather Y chromosome data and test them for validity to see whether it makes sense. with latest advancement in technology i guess these thinghs can be done. But the problem to get people gatheration and collecting it. Atleast in brahmin communtiy the gotra lineage i suppose have been maintained so if at all validity has to be done gather the same lineage data from all the same gotra and check for commonality and distinctiveness in the Y chromosome.

Ciao
anand
 
:) Dear Shri Vivekanand,

There are ppl who can make money out of sentiments (there is a company that has only 49 established gotras..)

Please don't be taken for a ride.

I quote a review mentioned on a site:

The DNA analysis concluded that I descended from a male ancestor that belonged to haplogroup R1a1, an Indo-European genetic type that most likely originated in Central-Eastern Europe and dispersed east as far as India, my paternal ancestral home. These Indo-European nomads thousands of years ago became the ancestors of the present day Brahmin caste of India from which I confirmed through DNA Consultants that I descended from. Coincidently or even mysteriously my family friends in Madras (present day Chenai), the Krishnans who are Kashappa Iyer Brahmins had given me their particular Gotram title when I was initiated as a Brahmin in a ritual ceremony called an Upanayam years ago before marriage. However I was unaware that my Bengali surname Sanyal was connected to the same Kashappa Gotram that I was initiated into, until my DNA Gotram results were made available which facilitated me in further research. The results and history given by Dr. Yates enabled me to learn more about my Brahmanic heritage, and to gain an insight on my paternal history and compare the findings with other R1a1 South Asian Brahmins.
please read this in context of india: http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Haplogroup_R1a1_(Y-DNA)

A few things not explained:
1) How can anyone with R1a1 (m17) be Kashyap gothra? So are men from Chenchus, Badagas, Irulas with r1a1 are all kashyapa gothra?

2) On waht basis was a gothra assigned to a person as kashyap based on r1a1 ?

3) there seems to be no link b/w the recent central asian entrants (nomads) and the earlier entrants that gave rise to the vedic cultures...

Lets us say tehre are 2 iyers, both bharadhwaja, same shakha, unrelated, one living in bangalore and another living in madras. The possibility of them both being realted is as much as a kallar from vellore and a kallar from kanyakumari. The bangalorean iyer will probably be more similar to the people of his region and the madras iyer will be more similar to the other madras residents. And if two people of the same caste were to live in the same region, the possibility of them both being related to each other cud be as much as those of other communities being related to either of them...there are very many possibilities...am sure it wud make for a very interesting study..
 
changing gothram

I am very sorry to say, there is no possibilities for our mother and father. Similarly gothram. i ask this question to my father, now he is running 93 years, he said what a idiotic question? I explained full details and then he said this.
 
Re : gothram

yes Happy Hindu

You are right, there are lot of test centres which run for business rather than for scientific purposes. To validate about all this lot of data needs to be collected and proved, otherwise it is difficult to conclude, especially on lineages and human migrations.

Ciao
Anand


:) Dear Shri Vivekanand,

There are ppl who can make money out of sentiments (there is a company that has only 49 established gotras..)

Please don't be taken for a ride.

I quote a review mentioned on a site:

please read this in context of india: http://www.dadamo.com/wiki/wiki.pl/Haplogroup_R1a1_(Y-DNA)

A few things not explained:
1) How can anyone with R1a1 (m17) be Kashyap gothra? So are men from Chenchus, Badagas, Irulas with r1a1 are all kashyapa gothra?

2) On waht basis was a gothra assigned to a person as kashyap based on r1a1 ?

3) there seems to be no link b/w the recent central asian entrants (nomads) and the earlier entrants that gave rise to the vedic cultures...

Lets us say tehre are 2 iyers, both bharadhwaja, same shakha, unrelated, one living in bangalore and another living in madras. The possibility of them both being realted is as much as a kallar from vellore and a kallar from kanyakumari. The bangalorean iyer will probably be more similar to the people of his region and the madras iyer will be more similar to the other madras residents. And if two people of the same caste were to live in the same region, the possibility of them both being related to each other cud be as much as those of other communities being related to either of them...there are very many possibilities...am sure it wud make for a very interesting study..
 
in the context of gothram and jadhagam poruthal, taking into account our book knowledge, erudity and social status, are we the most superstitous group ie nambikkai moodans among all tamil tribes.

from what i gather here and through other postings, matching mates among other tamil groups is less complicated than ours.

next to birth, and death, over which we still have minimal control, marriage is the key ceremony that we all go through, in one form or the other.

we still do not celebrate marriage during karthi maasam nor on saturdays.

why this mooda nambikkai?

personally i feel, that if one starts the process, and if this occassion goes well, based on such precedence, others will follow.

i think we went this way, over conducting marriages in margazhi etc etc...

thank you.
 
we still do not celebrate marriage during karthi maasam nor on saturdays.

This system of avoiding marriages in ani, adi, karthika and mazhgazhi months is followed by other communities too, followed in maharashtra, and karnataka also i think. Also saturdays, tuesdays, amavasya, etc are avoided. No idea why it is done? Cud be mooda nambikai, but maybe it is some panchangam auspicious thing (?). Saturday is considered fasting day, but godknows why tuesday is avoided.
 
changing gothram

if the girl is muslim or christian, are you ready for convert muslim or christian? If you want that type of love? I am very sorry to say "LOVE IS NOTHING BUT ONLY FOR LUST". Kinldy give respect to your parents and marry the good girl as per your parent's choice.
 
Not touching the topic of gothram, but the topic of mooda nambikkai as it is presented here.

While delivering justice, in the absence of a specific law to that intent, traditions and customs are looked upon provided they are not contradictory to principles of natural justice.

While it is good to question our practices, one must make an effort to go further. I am not an expert, but it is wise to go with existing practices provided they do not inflict any known damage to the human race. I think we are far more inferior in knowledge, when compared to the previous ages.

All planets have an influence on each other - that is what the horoscope is all about. Days and nights are again dependent on the movement of planets. Hence types of works are seggregated based on the planet.

Performing a marriage is not the same as fighting a battle; neither can it be compared to construction of a house nor digging a well. The fundamental qualities, actions and results required for each of the above are different. Hence, days, based on their planetary deity, are chosen which has the optimum positive influence for required qualities.

As regards months for marriage - Margazhi is purely devoted to god; they do perform marriages in Karthigai, but before the Maha Deepam.

We have taken a 180 degree turn on our life sytles, habits and beliefs. Hence such practices would naturally seem to be superstitious.

The old pretence of being liberal
Patent it blind, blame the scriptural
Search for it, not in general
But in practices, and the literal
Bound by the heavenly planets eternal
Scripting their journey, a guiding journal
The wise use with sapience internal
Call it blind, ain't mind nocturnal?
 
While it is good to question our practices, one must make an effort to go further. I am not an expert, but it is wise to go with existing practices provided they do not inflict any known damage to the human race. I think we are far more inferior in knowledge, when compared to the previous ages.

Me too sidestepping the Gothram issue, on the question of 'questioning practices', I am of the view that as humans we have 2 basic traits when we encounter any practice that is handed over to us.

a) Quest for truth

b) Spirit of rebellion

More often than not, it is b that we are possessed we.

'What will happen if i break this rule ?'

When i was younger, we were asked to finish off our lunch / dinner a good 2 / 3 hours before solar / lunar eclipse and strictly nothing to be eaten during the eclipse.

I had, as a true son of the indian soil, a rebellious attitude to this ; plus the fact that my house was blessed with many fruits from humble banana to pomegranate.

so, i would "test eating" the fruits during the eclipse ; nothing happened to me ;

i dont know whether scientifically the eclipse has anything to do with the digestive system but i had a rebellious attitude "merely" because i was forbidden from eating.

it has become a kind of fad to have a rebellious attitude towards anything that is age old tradition, though i must hasten to add that certain obnoxious practices had to be questioned and purged from the society (like sati or treatment of widows, child marriage etc)

i think that those who are really in quest of the truth shouldnt go behind such innanities but focus on practices which

a) if followed harm the society

b) if not followed properly harm the society

prima facie, i am of the view that any practice or a rule can be questioned. but i also think that the only rule in changing a rule is to know which rule to change and why.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest ads

Back
Top