Can Tamil Brahmins be bold to disclose their identity in public?

[Haridasa Siva]

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I am yet to read all posts in this thread. But the title made me think.

During my college days we were discussing about the reservation system. One of my friends, who is an S.C. was supporting it and I was opposing it (I still oppose it). I asked him the question, "With all these reservations, can you still disclose your S.C. identity in public?" to which he answered in negative. Now we are asking, "Can brahmins disclose their identity in public?". History has done a full cycle, it seems.

 

[suraju06]

Raju, please don't waste your time on my account. I am not giving any commitment to you. I don't expect any useful exchange with you, so I will not be responding to the post you are promising.

Also note, I jumped in to express my appreciation to Ravi for dissociating himself from your last para of unnecessary vile, and also to pointout that not knowing who JK is shows how ill informed you are on this subject.

peace and out

Nara,

I am amused. Thanks.

 

[suraju06]

The concluding comments reveal more about the poster than Happy, totally unnecessary for the topic being discussed.

Nara,

I don't come here to post my views looking for your or your alter ego's approval and appreciation. Period. If what I have posted is a lie it is for your friend to prove it. I will continue to come here to post my views whether you like them or not. Period.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Hi Renukka:

You just don't know who EVR was... He was one FEARLESS Social Reformer... before his fiery speeches, everyone wilted....

Nobody had the guts to speak a word against him...because he was for the oppressed and down-trodden...he was riling against the Upper Caste Anarchy....

You don't find such leaders these days.... Even if you go before him with your guns... they will fail to shoot...

That was the fervor and energy that EVR generated!

Younger generation must read their history well...

He is over-rated man.For all his fiery speeches,if he did a Che Guevara and picked up a gun,i would have respected him.He plainly pointed fingers at the brahmins and saved the mudaliars and Naickers from getting affected.

I feel he was just an egoistic man who reacted to the injustice rather than reflect upon it.No wonder,Tamils make him a hero.Whereas someone like Kamaraj just made the communities prosper.Like he gave lot of jobs to Nadars and made them prosperious with education and even Dalits of tirunelveli and Nagercoil prospered well.Whereas the big area of EVR influence namely Central TN of Thanjavur and all got all the intellectual benefits but stillr emain downtrodden.

 

[sarang]

EVR used to say that all tamils are idiots and barbarians (kattumirandi). His disciples swallowed such insults with resounding applause.

But my experience shows that his chelas are wiser than the master. Some years ago, in Kumbakonam, I saw one DK activist writing antibrahmin abuses on a notice board in front of the DK office. He then proceeded to a 'brahmin cafe' down the road for his nashta. When I asked him to explain, he said "that is my job; but I will get a tasty tiffin only in iyer kadai". All DK loyalists are following this kind of dravida-anti-brahminism for their own benefit. They know which side of the bread is buttered and what is good for them.

The brahmins must feel guilt free like hank rearden, john galt and dagny taggart in ayn rand's atlas shrugged. They must not shoulder the guilt put on their heads by the opportunist brahmin hater/bashers.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

yeah seriously,i know many naickers,naidus and mudaliars who discriminate against even normal SCs bigtime.

 

[biswa]

On the topic of Muslims, I once did a search on: "Are Indian Muslims patriotic?" It produced some interesting videos in Youtube. One of them was a series of interviews with Muslims in Hyderabad about who they support during an Indo-Pak cricket match. Another was for Muslims in Delhi asked about what they feel about Republic day. The results are (almost predictably) patriotic. Of course one does not know if there was any editing done. Also, it is a fact that a large number of Muslims in India are actually Bangladeshis.

 

[suraju06]

Mr.Naicker is the biggest ever fraud to happen on the tamil society. Period.

 

[Subramanian Natarajan]

Mr.Naicker and Mr.Jinnah are basic ego boosters.It is like this,when your child/student is going for a competition and has self doubts u ll always give them good things,u wont try to use objectivity for their bad.You wont u r not good enough even if thats the case.

EVR and Jinnah wanted to claim fame and thats why people like MGR who already had it had a large enough heart to do good.

 

[Yamaka]

Mr.Naicker is the biggest ever fraud to happen on the tamil society. Period.

Who was Erode V Ramasamy - The Periyar of Tamils (Mr. EVR Naiker)?

The citation awarded by the UNESCO described Periyar as "the prophet of the new age, the Socrates of South East Asia, father of social reform movement and arch enemy of ignorance, superstitions, meaningless customs and base manners".[SUP][17]- Wiki

Cheers.

ps. I don't know why some people try to rewrite History... What UNESCO citation says IS the History of EVR, IMO.[/SUP]

 

[Nara]

..[SUP] I don't know why some people try to rewrite History... What UNESCO citation says IS the History of EVR, IMO.[/SUP]

Y, today, no serious academic treatise on caste, social revolution, rationalism in India will fail to have a significant discussion of EVR's contributions. The fact is EVR is celebrated as a social reformer the world over. He talked of women's emancipation when even the western countries were backward in that regard. He didn't even exempt himself from criticism, he predicted that he will be considered not liberal and progressive enough in the future and rightly so.

Those who criticize him are motivated solely by parochial considerations. Criticisms from those who eulogize Brahminsim may be rejected as agenda-motivated. Others do not criticize him, but indeed praise him. Even some of Dalits who criticize him for not taking up their cause enough -- and I understand their disappointment -- are thankful to him for his fight against untouchability and other social evils. One test of this is, the Dalit thinkers who criticize EVR reject Brahminism outright.

Putting down EVR gives the Brahminists, who invariably are weekend pseudo-brahmins anyway, which betrays a caste-based hatred, some mental satisfaction, a sort of visceral pleasure. Let them have it. They are also our brothers and sisters, albeit misguided.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

On the topic of Muslims, I once did a search on: "Are Indian Muslims patriotic?" It produced some interesting videos in Youtube. One of them was a series of interviews with Muslims in Hyderabad about who they support during an Indo-Pak cricket match. Another was for Muslims in Delhi asked about what they feel about Republic day. The results are (almost predictably) patriotic. Of course one does not know if there was any editing done. Also, it is a fact that a large number of Muslims in India are actually Bangladeshis.

Biswa, me thinks the Bangladeshis always felt at home with the rest of the Bengalis...i mean we know of some Bangladeshi families (muslim), they are perfectly at home with a range of Indians but do not really seem to get along with northindian muslims and pakistanis, and i thot that was pretty puzzling...

 

[happyhindu]

Y, today, no serious academic treatise on caste, social revolution, rationalism in India will fail to have a significant discussion of EVR's contributions.

Wish EVR had looked into Balinese Hinduism also (although he wrote positively about some temple like puri jagannath which allows any hindu irrespective of caste to offer worship). Maybe knowing indonesian Hinduism might have influenced his perceptions for the better...maybe it wud have helped him differentiate between temple-priests and smrithi-followers...

Personally i like the Hinduism of Indonesia very much. They have temples, follow Agamas and have castes as occupational units. They use temples as clan/caste associations and there is no antipathy of any sort. I feel that is bcoz the concept of Varnas reached them late, and so imo Varna-concepts did not take root deeply there.

More importantly, indonesian hinduism never had the violence of the smrithis. So there is no varna discrimination. In India we have confused castes with varnas, and created "caste discrimination" when in reality going by the smrithi pov it is actually "varna discrimination"..

I guess indonesian hinduism represents hinduism what it was originally in southern india without varnas and smrithis. How nice it wud be if we could have that version back in india also.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Why not ? Though I do not identify myself as a Brahmin in my name, every one who moves with me knows that I am born in a Brahmin family. Caste system is a grouping based on the birth molded by the Society. I do not want to go into the merits and demerits of the Caste system.

I still do not understand the purport of this thread. What is great in disclosing one's Caste identity in their name? In many parts of India perhaps,except Tamil Nadu, people still identify themselves by their Caste names, which has become surname nowadays. It is an accepted fact, due to various changes in Society as well legal measures by Governments the Caste identity has outlived its utility in the Social structure of Hindu society today. In these ten or fifteen years due to economic independence, I find the Caste barriers and disparities are broken by the younger generation more frequently by the inter caste marriages and life style.

Let us come out of our self made cocoons of misguided values and try to live as good human beings first and last. All other things are irrelevant and transient in life.

 

[sarang]

Only in tamilnadu, many have dropped the caste tag - iyer, iyengar, mudaliar, chettiar, pillai etc. In neighbouring states nairs, menons, reddys, naidus are dime a dozen. I am sure the day when all add the tag will come. There are still many of visible youngsters of both sexes who add iyer, iyengar tag in the media and internet social sites. This at least will solve the problem of filling first, middle and surname in documents. There was a time when patel was the highest entry in UK telephone directory. Dwivedi, trivedi, chaturvedi, patel, gupta, agarwal are all caste names and nobody is ashamed to be called by their surnames.

let tambrahms also revert to the practice of adding iyer, iyengar, rao and declare their origins proudly.

Inter jati or inter varna marriages were not uncommon in the past. Where the couple will fit after is important. MS Subbulakshmi was accepted a s a brahmin by all brahmins. Inter caste (jati or varna) will not destroy our way of life - only inter faith marriages. Those souls are lost for ever.

One has to convert to islam for the marriage to be recognised and one has to sign sign an affidavit for a church wedding that the children will be baptized and made to follow christianity.

 

[amala]

Biswa, me thinks the Bangladeshis always felt at home with the rest of the Bengalis...i mean we know of some Bangladeshi families (muslim), they are perfectly at home with a range of Indians but do not really seem to get along with northindian muslims and pakistanis, and i thot that was pretty puzzling...

You know HHji, I know lots and lots of Bangladeshis here in London. In fact one my "bestest" friend is Bangladeshi. They are some of the most humble and simple people I have ever known. None of the airs and graces that unfortunately many of us Hindus tend to have. We can learn a lot from them and i honestly feel its something about Islam that tends to bring out the best in people (and i guess the worst, i thought i had better point this out in case many others do!)

I also wouldn't want to be a Muslim in India (or USA) at this point. Always having to reaffirm/prove their commitment to their country, or their patriotism etc. When will this witch hunting of them ever stop?

 

[C RAVI]

I also wouldn't want to be a Muslim in India (or USA) at this point. Always having to reaffirm/prove their commitment to their country, or their patriotism etc. When will this witch hunting of them ever stop?

Dear Amala,

The witch hunting is done on those who found to be treacherous towards the nation some way. Only countries that were been and is often intrigued by extremists and been subjected to terror attacks would know what is the importance of its citizen's patriotism. Such gullible countries are forced to be in the business of witch hunting for the sake of safety and integrity. Unless terror attacks ceases to take place in such countries, such witch hunting would be a default security system of these nations.

 

[Nara]

... MS Subbulakshmi was accepted a s a brahmin by all brahmins.

Without going into any of the other points, MS was never accepted as a Brahmin by her generation. To them she remained a dasi. It was after long years of total submission to her husband that she was reluctantly acknowledged. It is the younger generation that revered her for her music and humility.

Cheers!

p.s. others older people may correct me if I am wrong

 

[happyhindu]

It is the younger generation that revered her for her music and humility.

i heard her kutcheris were jam packed yet no one wud meet her offstage in those earlier days....only later after she became a huge icon it became difficult to ignore her....and thus came the reluctant acknowledgement (instead of acceptance) from the B community....

dunno if true though. its a hearsay source.

 

[happyhindu]

You know HHji, I know lots and lots of Bangladeshis here in London. In fact one my "bestest" friend is Bangladeshi. They are some of the most humble and simple people I have ever known. None of the airs and graces that unfortunately many of us Hindus tend to have. We can learn a lot from them and i honestly feel its something about Islam that tends to bring out the best in people (and i guess the worst, i thought i had better point this out in case many others do!)

I also wouldn't want to be a Muslim in India (or USA) at this point. Always having to reaffirm/prove their commitment to their country, or their patriotism etc. When will this witch hunting of them ever stop?

Amala sweatheart, i wud say its the same with the indonesian muslims -- very down to earth and loving people. Unfortunately there are some radicalized ones in indonesia too (very few though). But by and far the moderate ones are very determined not to let the radicalized ones succeed in bringing a bad name to their religion..In India there always remains the danger of anyone becoming radicalized; bcoz poverty level in india is too high, and local support networks to identify and prevent sleeper cells from recruiting members is lacking.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Without going into any of the other points, MS was never accepted as a Brahmin by her generation. To them she remained a dasi. It was after long years of total submission to her husband that she was reluctantly acknowledged. It is the younger generation that revered her for her music and humility.

Cheers!

p.s. others older people may correct me if I am wrong

Dear Sri "Nara",

Yes, Smt M.S.Subbhulakshmi was born to a Devadasi mother. But don't you agree
by marriage to a Brahmin husband she had become a Brahmin as per the norms of
our Hindu society?
A correction, she was always revered for her music by older generation as well.

Regards.
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[Nara]

...A correction, she was always revered for her music by older generation . .

Dear B sir, happy to stand corrected....

best ...

 

[Brahmanyan]

Smt. M.S.Subbulakshmi

i heard her kutcheris were jam packed yet no one wud meet her offstage in those earlier days....only later after she became a huge icon it became difficult to ignore her....and thus came the reluctant acknowledgement (instead of acceptance) from the B community....

dunno if true though. its a hearsay source.

Dear "Happyhindu",

No, not to my knowledge such thing was true. I have heard her in many concerts in Coimbatore during my younger days. Her husband T.Sadasivam was said to be a strict person, he had guided her throughout her married life in a disciplined manner, which fact M.S. herself has acknowledged
"Whatever I did in my life and music was guided entirely by him," M.S. said. "What the world calls my achievements are his gifts to me."

Incidentally today is her birthday. M.S.Subbulakshmi was born on September, 16,1916.

MS - A LIFE IN MUSIC a fascinating biography written by eminent writer and Journalist
TJS George has been published by Harper Collins.
Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sangom]

Without going into any of the other points, MS was never accepted as a Brahmin by her generation. To them she remained a dasi. It was after long years of total submission to her husband that she was reluctantly acknowledged. It is the younger generation that revered her for her music and humility.

Cheers!

p.s. others older people may correct me if I am wrong

I do not know the truth but one very reliable source tells that Sadasivam's brahmin wife committed suicide on the day his marriage with MS was performed. Does anyone know this? I am not able to tell if this is a true statement but for the integrity of the old tabra relative (now 90+) who told this.

I have heard Chengaalipuram Anantharaama Deekshitar propounding, sometime in the late 1950's - during an exposition of Sundarakaandam in a 41-day series of upanyaasams in Trivandrum- that in the list of "pativratais" we can find only MS from the present times. This one statement caused a virtual steep fall in Deekshitar's standing among the tabra women and from the next day onwards, the crowds were very thin

 

[sangom]

A correction, she was always revered for her music by older generation as well.

Regards.
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

There was some belief that mridangists - both B and NB - were reluctant to accompany her. I don't know whether the dislike was due to musical reasons or caste-based, or even gender-bias.