Anyone interested in discussing case studies

[renuka]

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Dear Sravna,

I have a question for you...sometimes in life we get favors from people who obviously admire us but dare not make any move cos everyone is married but nevertheless these admirers go all out to help us when we need acute help.

So is it "immoral" to receive help from people who admire us?

But the help rendered is legal and dharmic.

Its just that we know deep down inside that the person is helping us cos he/she is our admirer...so is this moral or immoral when we know that we use our "looks and personality" to get help at times.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I have a question for you...sometimes in life we get favors from people who obviously admire us but dare not make any move cos everyone is married but nevertheless these admirers go all out to help us when we need acute help.

So is it "immoral" to receive help from people who admire us?

But the help rendered is legal and dharmic.

Its just that we know deep down inside that the person is helping us cos he/she is our admirer...so is this moral or immoral when we know that we use our "looks and personality" to get help at times.

Dear Renuka,

One yardstick I have managed to drill down to know whether our thinking or actions are immoral is to find out how it affects the net effect of the six enemies of mind in the persons concerned. A righteoos action never has a net effect on the six enemies of mind. I say net effect because sometimes dharmas conflict and we may have to perform the greater dharma, By performing the greater dharma, the effect of the dharma not performed would disappear.

Let us say the admirer or lover helps us because of our looks. I think the action of taking help puts the person offering help at an advantage and if that person has a motive behind offering, then there is definitely an effect on his six enemies. Now the reason we seek help is the other aspect. If it is something which we cannot avoid and it annuls the action of kindling the six enemies in the admirer then I think we are justified in getting the help.

The basic rule we can follow is, can the action be done without any adharma? In this case can we get help from some other who has no expectation? If so that is the right action otherwise if we have to get the help from the admirer, we weigh the dharmas against each other and then decide.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I don't feel its possible to be "moral" in all aspects of life..that would be very boring too.

We can outwardly be very moral but in our mind we can be very immoral and enjoy a fantasy or two that no one would ever know!LOL

Dear Renuka,

Being moral is not boring. Since you have made a suggestion about how we should be, let me make a suggestion.

Try to be outwardly gregarious, charming and attractive but inwardly disciplined. If that is possible you will derive greater satisfaction from how well you are in control but still enjoying the outer world.

 

[sravna]

I talked about discussing gunas and their relevance.

Let me start it on the note that our personality is decided by what we think is truth in addition to our own natural inclinations. Reality can be understood in many ways. A certain way of understanding leads to certain ways of thinking and behavior. Science presents reality in one way and spirituality in another. Adherent of one does not see eye to eye with the adherent of the other. So to influence our behavior at least to be in harmony with one's nature, we need the right understanding of reality.

I think science and spirituality can be bridged. But the fact is each is dismissive of the other. So when the truth is one, we see versions of truth causing disagreements and fights against one another. To avoid that we need to not understand a piece of knowledge in a literal or isolated way but see for a connection with other pieces.

 

[sravna]

I would like to defer talking about gunas as I have something else to discuss which I think I need to discuss now.

I have talked so much about self control. How does one really gain self control. And before that, what really is self control?

In previous discussions I have mentioned that mind is what interacts with the external world. The mind interprets the information from the physical world which is passed on by the sense organs and the brain. Ego and intellect and lower mind are parts of the mind. There is an influence of the physical aspects such as the output from the lower mind and ego, on the intellect. . The intellect itself exists at some level of spirituality. When the physical aspects are powerful enough to overpower the spirituality of intellect we form materialistic perspective otherwise our perspectives would be spiritual in nature.

The mind itself is a projection of the jivatma which in essence is the real self. So self control is nothing but how much control the self has over the physical force exerted on it. When the present power of the jivatma as reflected in the mind is able to overpower the physical forces, the self control happens.

 

[sravna]

There is another part of mind called the citta. It represents the past impressions. In my view , the lower mind representing the present forces, the citta representing the past forces together build the ego. The ego is what could cloud the intellect or the conscience. In the fight between ego and conscience whichever is stronger makes its influence felt in the thoughts and actions of a person.

 

[sravna]

When ego is in an incipient stage you are controlled by others. But as it grows you want to be in control and control others. Ironically this when when you are losing the self control the most. Think about it, what happens when you try to exert maximum control over others. It manifests as anger if you are not able to control them, it manifests as greed as you want more and more of the external things, it manifests as pride if you are able to exercise control and so on.

Without the influence of intellect it is a sure recipe for self destruction.

 

[sravna]

One profound truth we are not able to realize is that it is easier to work on self than others but yet we do not do that and try to influence others. The reason is exactly the realization of the truth is very difficult. It is just not understanding of this truth. Understanding is shallower than realization. Only when the latter happens it becomes part of your core beliefs.

Think of it. We try to get into relationships such as spouse, friends, student, teacher, boss, employee etc in the external world. We have a number of natural relationships like father, son , uncle etc. There are so many relationships as acquaintances. Only when our interactions with people in these relationships is successful we become happy. We generally spend a lot of time and efforts in making these relationships in the outer world work. But it is not easy because there should be reciprocation . I assume you are working on the other person and not on yourself. There may be many other external hindrances to the relationships.

Now what if you try to make friendships with the inner world, i.e, your mind. How do you make friendship with the inner world. It is to understand it accepts only higher principles. So when you are talking of a relationship as a son , you have to develop the qualities of respect and those necessary for performing the responsibilities as a son, similarly for a relationship as a spouse develop mutual respect and love and those qualities necessary for performing the responsibilities as a spouse and so on. Thus starting with a conscious effort, your bond with the inner world would more and more deepen and finally result in a strong bonding with it.

Once that happens the support you get from the inner world is unimaginable. Imagine it to be like the external world where we are in and all the people in the external world supporting and helping you. It is similar to that. The more deeper the bond is, it is like more people in the world are supporting you.

I would talk about this in more detail some other time. I thought it would have some relevance before talking about the attributes of the mind. I am discussing about mind to understand how we can use practical techniques that can work on mind and help us think with clarity in any situation.

 

[renuka]

My answers in Blue.

One profound truth we are not able to realize is that it is easier to work on self than others but yet we do not do that and try to influence others. The reason is exactly the realization of the truth is very difficult. It is just not understanding of this truth. Understanding is shallower than realization. Only when the latter happens it becomes part of your core beliefs.


Dear Sravna..it's actually easier to work on others than self.The human ego prefers to judge and see faults in others but not self.

Think of it. We try to get into relationships such as spouse, friends, student, teacher, boss, employee etc in the external world. We have a number of natural relationships like father, son , uncle etc. There are so many relationships as acquaintances. Only when our interactions with people in these relationships is successful we become happy. We generally spend a lot of time and efforts in making these relationships in the outer world work. But it is not easy because there should be reciprocation . I assume you are working on the other person and not on yourself. There may be many other external hindrances to the relationships.


It would be very tiring to be trying to make relationships work..mostly I feel we all function in auto-pilot mode.
We are familiar with people we deal with and also tend to take some for granted.
Only when we are trying to be fake and impress another we actually make a lot of effort to maintain a relationship.

Truth hardly needs maintenance..its only false hood that needs to be maintained.


Now what if you try to make friendships with the inner world, i.e, your mind.

If we start to look at our mind as totally a different entity from us..there is risk of developing delusion.Not everyone can handle a Jekyll and Hyde situation well.

How do you make friendship with the inner world. It is to understand it accepts only higher principles. So when you are talking of a relationship as a son , you have to develop the qualities of respect and those necessary for performing the responsibilities as a son, similarly for a relationship as a spouse develop mutual respect and love and those qualities necessary for performing the responsibilities as a spouse and so on. Thus starting with a conscious effort, your bond with the inner world would more and more deepen and finally result in a strong bonding with it.


Too much Fevicol bonding smothers the other person...we should learn to loosen our grip..otherwise we form black holes in relationships that suck up all personal space.

Once that happens the support you get from the inner world is unimaginable.


Yes..this is the beginning of delusion...we start to imagine we get support from other dimensions!LOL

Imagine it to be like the external world where we are in and all the people in the external world supporting and helping you. It is similar to that. The more deeper the bond is, it is like more people in the world are supporting you.

See the danger? We start to imagine a whole new dimension is in our mind!

I would talk about this in more detail some other time. I thought it would have some relevance before talking about the attributes of the mind. I am discussing about mind to understand how we can use practical techniques that can work on mind and help us think with clarity in any situation.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Mind is not a different entity. What I was trying to say is we have two basic approaches for success and happiness. Working on self is a much better way for success and happiness. I believe there is a world within ourselves which can give us a strength that is more than the summation of all the help we can get from the physical world. When everyone has that potential why not try to tap it for one's well being.

We need to compete with others in the external world. The more power and status we want in the external world the more we need to compete. We are thus working against each other. But that is not the case with the inner world. Of course, we are working against the six enemies of mind but every progress we make is permanent and we are not at the risk of losing the gains made. That is when we really don't have to plan and never worry about maintenance.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Mind is not a different entity. What I was trying to say is we have two basic approaches for success and happiness. Working on self is a much better way for success and happiness. I believe there is a world within ourselves which can give us a strength that is more than the summation of all the help we can get from the physical world. When everyone has that potential why not try to tap it for one's well being.

We need to compete with others in the external world. The more power and status we want in the external world the more we need to compete. We are thus working against each other. But that is not the case with the inner world. Of course, we are working against the six enemies of mind but every progress we make is permanent and we are not at the risk of losing the gains made. That is when we really don't have to plan and never worry about maintenance.

Dear Sravna,

I feel competing is optional.

Frankly speaking I can safely say in my whole life I have not competed with anyone.I might sound a bit self obsessed but I never use another as a yardstick for myself and neither does the success of anyone make me envious...cos I set my own pace and go about with it...I view myself as a the only horse on the racetrack ..midway I might speed up or even slow down or even stop for a drink of water..resting to eat some hay. I call it the shots..but I dont run away from obligation and duties.

I have no jockey in the real sense for my own mind is my jockey(By jockey here I mean the Jockey for a horse and not the popular underwear brand in India!LOL)

I do not really work against anyone and neither am I a team leader nor am I a real team player....all these lead to competition of an unhealthy kind.

My motto in life is..just do what we have to do...so there is no actual need for me to be concerned about an inner world or an outer world..why complicate myself? I am the lone horse in the race track..the track is all mine..I choose the pace..I choose to reach the destination..or I might not even choose to run.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I feel competing is optional.

Frankly speaking I can safely say in my whole life I have not competed with anyone.I might sound a bit self obsessed but I never use another as a yardstick for myself and neither does the success of anyone make me envious...cos I set my own pace and go about with it...I view myself as a the only horse on the racetrack ..midway I might speed up or even slow down or even stop for a drink of water..resting to eat some hay. I call it the shots..but I dont run away from obligation and duties.

I have no jockey in the real sense for my own mind is my jockey(By jockey here I mean the Jockey for a horse and not the popular underwear brand in India!LOL)

I do not really work against anyone and neither am I a team leader nor am I a real team player....all these lead to competition of an unhealthy kind.

My motto in life is..just do what we have to do...so there is no actual need for me to be concerned about an inner world or an outer world..why complicate myself? I am the lone horse in the race track..the track is all mine..I choose the pace..I choose to reach the destination..or I might not even choose to run.

Well said Renuka. You are in control of yourself, I mean your mind is in control. That is when, everything happens spontaneously. To some it comes naturally.

Since I have benefited so much with this approach, I believe that it will benefit a lot others also. Actually, I did not consciously develop a theory of inner world and tried to follow it. But when I mulled how it worked, I got the ideas.

 

[renuka]

Well said Renuka. You are in control of yourself, I mean your mind is in control. That is when, everything happens spontaneously. To some it comes naturally.

Since I have benefited so much with this approach, I believe that it will benefit a lot others also. Actually, I did not consciously develop a theory of inner world and tried to follow it. But when I mulled how it worked, I got the ideas.

Dear Sravna,

I would not say I am always in control of myself..sometimes I can be anxious,nervous and even panic too not to mention being euphoric too!...but the body and mind has a stabilizing capability that eventually an equilibrium will happen only for its to be disturbed again.

This is very normal I feel and striving too hard to be in control might actually make matters worse.

Recently too many people in my house fell sick at the same time and one landed in ICU and I had to handle everything.

I knew I could not focus at work so I shut my practice for a few days to focus on what is really needed.

When faced with some pressing situations I usually hardly can eat...body goes into adrenaline mode where its all action and one cuts down the need to eat as much.You would be surprised to know when the mind is tensed..the body rejects food. but yet one does not have low energy levels.

I went tru all these and once the situation improved and everyone recovered I was back to normal eating again.

So am I fully in control? I would not fully say Yes and neither would I say No.

I feel the best for us humans is to accept that we go tru changes that can be at the either end of the spectrum and flow along with it and not be to concerned about being in control..losing control too is acceptable..its merely a phase.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

I would not say I am always in control of myself..sometimes I can be anxious,nervous and even panic too not to mention being euphoric too!...but the body and mind has a stabilizing capability that eventually an equilibrium will happen only for its to be disturbed again.

This is very normal I feel and striving too hard to be in control might actually make matters worse.

Recently too many people in my house fell sick at the same time and one landed in ICU and I had to handle everything.

I knew I could not focus at work so I shut my practice for a few days to focus on what is really needed.

When faced with some pressing situations I usually hardly can eat...body goes into adrenaline mode where its all action and one cuts down the need to eat as much.You would be surprised to know when the mind is tensed..the body rejects food. but yet one does not have low energy levels.

I went tru all these and once the situation improved and everyone recovered I was back to normal eating again.

So am I fully in control? I would not fully say Yes and neither would I say No.

I feel the best for us humans is to accept that we go tru changes that can be at the either end of the spectrum and flow along with it and not be to concerned about being in control..losing control too is acceptable..its merely a phase.

Dear Renuka

It is always a tussle between the body and mind. The body and brain act in accordance with the pressures of the external world and it is only the soothing effect of the mind that can keep things in control. It is human to feel out of control at times. Otherwise we would not be existing in the physical world. But there are so many people who do not understand the mechanics of the mind and let the situation overwhelm them.

You either have to plan or be able to be spontaneous. Otherwise you will be overwhelmed most of the times and that can have a very adverse effect on you.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

What is your take on Astral projection(travel)?

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

What is your take on Astral projection(travel)?

Dear Renuka,

I have not had any real intuition on that. But my present understanding is that there is definitely a subtle self which I consider as the mind beneath the physical self and it can emerge out and become separate from the physical self provided it is developed enough for it. The travel would not be in space as mind is everywhere in space but in the higher energies of time.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

I have not had any real intuition on that. But my present understanding is that there is definitely a subtle self which I consider as the mind beneath the physical self and it can emerge out and become separate from the physical self provided it is developed enough for it. The travel would not be in space as mind is everywhere in space but in the higher energies of time.

Dear Renuka,

Whenever your are able to totally remove the effect of body from the mind I think you are doing an astral projection. This happens in very deep meditation when you are able to separate the effect of your body and surroundings. Traveling in time according to me is gaining knowledge and not the type of time travel we normally talk about and that anyway I think is impossible.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

Ok we both agree that Astral Projection is possible.

I prefer using the term projection becos the word Astral Travel gives an impression as if the subtle body has to travel some distance etc.

There might actually be no distance at all to travel but just a projection of the subtle body into a dimension.

My question here is not really about the capability to Astral Project ..I know that some people are capable of this but frankly speaking what is the use of having this ability?

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Ok we both agree that Astral Projection is possible.

I prefer using the term projection becos the word Astral Travel gives an impression as if the subtle body has to travel some distance etc.

There might actually be no distance at all to travel but just a projection of the subtle body into a dimension.

My question here is not really about the capability to Astral Project ..I know that some people are capable of this but frankly speaking what is the use of having this ability?

Dear Renuka,

There is one reason I can think of. It is just like having deep intuition. When mind is free of the pressures of the body it is able to go deep into the truths and understand reality better. So I would it is mind is able to get at real deep truths. That is how our rishis got the truths. They were traveling in time and able to go as far as timeless reality.

 

[sangom]

"Mind" can under no circumstances get to the Reality or Truth, because the mind is an instrument created by Nature/God to confuse this seeming world to appear as though it is a reality by itself. Hence the only instrumentality available is the human intellect and it can give you "Brahma jnaana".

 

[renuka]

" Hence the only instrumentality available is the human intellect and it can give you "Brahma jnaana".

The mind and the intellect..Manas and Buddhi..I really wonder how different can it really be?

After all both are the function of the Antahkarana.

Both Manas and Buddhi have the same substratum..so do they have an overlap in function or they are distinct in their function?

The exact location of the Antahkarana(if it exists)..is yet to be totally well defined.

In the brain..some parts of the frontal cortex is thought to be the location for reasoning,decision making and even self control..which in my opinion seems to be very much like the function of the Buddhi.

So I guess the subtle body too should have a "subtle brain" that functions similarly to the physical brain if there is something called the Antahkarana.

So since there might be a subtle counterpart to a physical function...its still very much individualized..so how are we so sure even 'Brahma Jnaana" is not just mind games?

 

[sravna]

The mind and the intellect..Manas and Buddhi..I really wonder how different can it really be?

After all both are the function of the Antahkarana.

Both Manas and Buddhi have the same substratum..so do they have an overlap in function or they are distinct in their function?

The exact location of the Antahkarana(if it exists)..is yet to be totally well defined.

In the brain..some parts of the frontal cortex is thought to be the location for reasoning,decision making and even self control..which in my opinion seems to be very much like the function of the Buddhi.

So I guess the subtle body too should have a "subtle brain" that functions similarly to the physical brain if there is something called the Antahkarana.

So since there might be a subtle counterpart to a physical function...its still very much individualized..so how are we so sure even 'Brahma Jnaana" is not just mind games?

Dear Renuka,

Th manas is that which is influenced by external forces whereas intellect is that which actually evolves and tries to bring under control what manas is subjected to. The manas is also called the lower mind.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

Th manas is that which is influenced by external forces whereas intellect is that which actually evolves and tries to bring under control what manas is subjected to. The manas is also called the lower mind.

Dear Sravna,

The intellect is very dependent on the data of Manas.

It interprets and analyzes that data of Manas.

Based on past experiences and outcomes it then decides on the subsequent mode of action.

This again is highly individualized cos humans are prone to commit the same mistake over and over again.

The Once Bitten Twice Shy experience actually seldom happens...have you noted we humans have a tendency to be inclined towards a certain almost fixed type of behavior?

The reason is becos there seems to something that can over ride even the influence of the Intellect.What is that? Desire?Karma or Free Will or Genetics or a combination of everything?

For example a person is married...he/she loves his/her spouse but at the same time can't help feeling attracted to another person.

The Manas gets into an emotional mess..the Buddhi keeps telling the person that it is not right to be attracted to another person when one is married but after a while succumbs to the situation and falls in love with another person.

So what caused this? Intellect could not stop a person.

Actually intellect seldom has much effect on any person until a person is down and out...then he/she feels they should have heeded the warnings of their intellect.

This feeling too is only temporary..once a person is back on his/her feet..his/her old behaviour repeats.

No one really changes..its only the Modus Operandi that changes...if a person had an affair that cost him his marriage..the next time he might just learn to be more careful in his new affairs.

Just like a petty criminal that goes to jail becomes a hard core one on release.

I somehow feel Buddhi is just like a nagging wife living in our brain.

Does anyone actually listen to a nagging wife?

 

[sravna]

The reason is becos there seems to something that can over ride even the influence of the Intellect.What is that? Desire?Karma or Free Will or Genetics or a combination of everything?



I somehow feel Buddhi is just like a nagging wife living in our brain.

Does anyone actually listen to a nagging wife?

Dear Renuka,

My belief is that the extent of devlopment of intellect is related to karma, control of desire and how much free will can be exercised. A person may face all possible forces against him and still overcome them with his intellect if it is strong enough.

Intellect is not the nagging wife. It is the one behind every successful man

 

[sangom]

Antahkarana is neither defined nor well understood. It serves the purpose of some religious preachers, that's all. Mind (manas) is very much a part of the physically created body and it coordinates the actions and inputs of the sense organs or indriyas. Intellect (buddhi) is not dependent on the indriyas and it is an independent entity. Our linking of buddhi and brain is not really correct.