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Anna Hazare arrested. Crowds swell in support. What will happen?

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I have three responses to this:
  1. Our discussion is about the problems in AH's proposal. So, what punishments may or may not be provided in Prevention of Corruption Act is irrelevant.
  2. Even so, whatever punishment PCA may provide for either side, the additional punishment provided here in JLP is asymmetric, with government officials facing rigorous prison time in addition to monetary fines and businesses facing only some vague monetary penalties from which they can easily wiggle out.
  3. The "in addition to the other punishments provided for under this Act" is just jargon as there are no other punishments provided elsewhere in this act for businesses that is equal in severity with that of what government officials face.
If you still think I am missing something, please elaborate.

Please provide the text where prison term is provided for businessmen.

Namaste Sri Nara Sir,

I am referring only to the punishments suggested in JLP and in my view they are symmetric. The text "In addition to other punishments provided for under this Act" is not jargonic, but that is how the words are framed in statutes in India.

Sec. 23 (1) which reads as "For any act of corruption, the punishment shall not be less than six months of rigorous imprisonment and may extend upto imprisonment for life" means the punishment to everyone of those who are pronounced guilty by the judicial authorities applies both to the bribe taker and the beneficiary of corruption.

Hence, I fail to see how you view this as exclusion of the businessmen from this non-monetary punishment.

Regards,

narayan
 
#Sri Anna Hazare has woken up the sleeping Citizens by his agitation against Corruption.

#The draft bill of Anna Hazare may have faults, but it seems to be much better than the one prepared by the Government.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

anna deserves 3 salutes from me for having brought the awareness, which, i think, no one had done it since independence. but, that follows with a big & bold full stop, from me.

what he did after that, is just a sheer indian-ink stain, only to be erased from the texts of history, i mean his black mailing tactics of parliament, which had only set a bad precedent for next gen. hence forth you will not find protests like strikes/traffic blocks/torching buses/road blocks etc, rather an easy opt would be, oh boy! just block the PM/President/picket parliament/black mail with suicide. thats what anna has taught us,and as on date, looks like he has quite impressed the youth with it.

last sunday, i happened to see the anna flare-up in bangalore. I saw a taxi, fully covered on the back side with vinyl printed sheets with annas suicide snap, and few of his hindi slogan, but, sadly, the banner covered the taxis number plates, a big big traffic law violation.

i happened to be in madras yesterday, and a friend of mine who came to see me landed with a huge fight there, over the auto driver's exorbitant fare. he said, "Yoov,this is chennai, so you pay it", and i had no option but asking him to pay it, to avoid a fight, and he added, " a norm here, we don't put meters here in chennai" , and he even stopped a passer by auto give a testimony to pacify me. i didnt check that young boys driving licence or RC book or auto licence..

may be i was bit scared to try that too, i admit. interestingly,there glued a 'portrait of ANNA' on the rear of auto (just above the slogan "Naam IruvaR , naMakku Iruvar'). may be he is clever to put anna's photo, so that cops dont stop him to check his DL or penalize him for his 'signal jumps'.

thats anna and that's how he filled the hearts of citizens, who feels anna is the only crusader they have to fight against corruption, and they dont see him as some one dictating parliament. they are ok, even if anna pays bribe on daily basis, to run his campaign. they are ok even if anna took bribe of 20 crores from corporates to fight against corruption, they would justify it with "diamond only can cut the diamond"


they think, if anna's idea is accepted by that Sardarji prime minister, they will get ration card in 3 days(for auto driver), passport in 15 days (middle class),.. and if any officer fails to do so, he will be sentenced to Tihar jail for life, possibly to gallows.

they are all for their own benefits. no one has come forward to say, i will not give bribe. i scanned all the visuals of TV on ramlila ground, havent seen a banner saying, 'No To Bribe' its all about 'dont ask bribe'!!! . be it the auto driver, the folks who paid excess fare, or the taxi driver who violated the law by shrouding his number plate. thats india! hamara india and aam admi..

the solution is not JLP, or JJJJLP...annaLP

the people should change.. here anna failed, by not even attempting to address it..he demanded tough punishment for those who register false complaints to JLP, but he has not addressed in detail about the tough punishments to those who bribe.. may be anna wants to give benefit of doubt to those 'bribe givers on duress'!!

i always wonder , where was mr.anna in times of CWG/3G?.

in my view, that Harvard boy dr.subramoniya samy ( i dont like him but) stands tall , taller , tallest , than mr.anna.
 
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Anna's NGO seems to be fully funded by Corporates... In return he has soft corners for them...

He is surrounded by Autocrats who don't believe in Democracy and Delegated Decentralized Powers...

Team Anna colluded with Autocrats and Corporates to CHANGE India towards THEIR PATH... away from Multi-Party Messy Democracy..

The process is in action with a Suicidal Threat hanging over this 74 year old "Pseudo-Gandhian"..

In Tunisia, Egypt and Libya people are running AWAY from Totalitarian Autocrats... and in India, poor youths are running into the Autocrats....

What a tragedy!

Wait & watch.
 
In Tunisia, Egypt and Libya people are running AWAY from Totalitarian Autocrats... and in India, poor youths are running into the Autocrats....

What a tragedy!

Wait & watch.

i think, our political system, though borrowed from brits, is not bad.. it wanted NOT to have a queen, not a bad single power center, which was a vision of lord mount batten.

so mount batter along with dr.amebedkar , gandhi, nehru, decided to settle for a system where the power is not centered but equally inter-twined, so that we will not have embarassing a situation like, an army general Musharraf showing guns to the Prime minister, a supreme court judge throwing a prime minister, or a pm firing not a SC judge ( a pm cant even fire a HC judge), president has no power to sentence a citizen, but only can absolve, etc etc..

in the british given democracy, the powers are not centered to one person, not even the parliament, cos the president can say a big NO to any parliamentary resolution..



but here, according to anna, JLP can don PM,parliament and everything, all in terms of policing/investigation/trial/justice.. thats bad..

the JLP head will be more,extra more powerful than president and PM !! may be there will be a new national anthem, starting with, jana gana mana athi Anna..
 
...
Sec. 23 (1) which reads as "For any act of corruption, the punishment shall not be less than six months of rigorous imprisonment and may extend upto imprisonment for life" ..
narayan, in the first place, JLP is not allowed to take cognizance of an act of corruption by businesses. It has jurisdiction only over government officials. So, the punishment provided under 23(1) for "act of corruption" is only for government officials. Section 23(3) is about businesses, that too only if this act of corruption benefits a business. If there is no evidence to show the business benefited, that is it, case closed.

In other words, there is nothing in this bill that says 23(1) applies to businesses also.

narayan, you see, if two non-lawyers can quibble over language, context, and purport, the high-priced lawyers appearing for big businesses can have a field day tying everything into knots.

Let me leave you with a question, suppose that one big business magnet called Vambani sends one of his underlings to propose a deal/bribe to a government official in exchange for some favor.

Case 1: the official takes the deal, a whistle-blower tips JLP off. Then, JLP will go after the government official and possibly send him to prison for a long time. Vambani's underling will just walk, let alone Vambani.

Case 2: the official refuses to take the deal and goes to JLP. At best JLP can give a sympathetic ear. Vambani will just figure out someway to neutralize this honest official and get his way sooner or later.

JLP has no authority to go after Vambani in either of the two cases. This is why I cannot support JLP in the present form.

Cheers!
 
After listening to people like Aruna Roy and Usha Ramanathan (both civil society activists with enormous knowledge on the matters of Corruption and Law-making process in Democracy) I get the distinct impression that there are very many people who have been at this issue for a long time.

The diagnosis of Corruption in all walks of life has been done by these people long long time ago, perhaps well before Anna Hazare jumped into the bandwagon...

Perhaps the most annoying part is, Anna got the backing of powerful Corporates... he suddenly became the Face of Opposition to Corruption.

This I believe is the Mischief of Anna and the Corporates...

Alas... the voices of other sincere and serious activists like Aruna Roy and Usha Ramanathan are drowned out in this Mischief.

That makes me sad and angry about this Corporates, Team Anna and Anna himself.

Wake up, people... Youth India is terribly misguided here.

Stay tuned.
 
Lalu Prasad Yadav says in his specch that the crucial issue is exempting NGOs from the ambit of the Lokpal/Lokayukta and AH has been made a sacrificial goat by NGO leaders like Arvind Kejriwal and others. What I could surmise from Lalu's speech is that the NGO has now become a very favourite route for people with black money to park it safely and use it as and when they want. I had heard exactly the same opinion from a very senior executive of NABARD which provides lines of financial assistance to NGOs, way back in the 1990's. Any views here?

LPY says govt's LPB included NGO's and that was the point for AH getting worked up may be AH also feels insecure with his NGOs also being there. He raises the claim often "I have implemented crores worth of welfare schemes but do not have a bank account." To me LPY seems to know the pulse because "paampin kaal paampukku theriyum" :)
 
Okay.. After ALL the Hoopla at the Ramlila Maidan and Anna's Dancing with Suicide, What has happened?

1. A "Sense of the House" has been resolved in the Parliament, after about 8 hours of debate.

2. The Standing Committee on this matter will work on it, and an amended Lokpal Bill will be presented to the Parliament for consideration, and voting. This could take weeks or months.

In a way, this is what I was expecting... Anna may feel that he has won; that's good for him and his crowd.

PM has acted very well on this issue... He has said time and again "Will of the People IS the Will of the Parliament"... "Elected Parliament IS the Supreme Body"... "Follow the Constitution and Laws of the Land"..

Hopefully, Youth India also learnt a few lessons.... Process and Procedures are MORE important and the Delegated Decentralized Power of Democracy is far Superior than an Autocracy....

What Next?


Wait & watch.
 
அன்னாக்கு ஒரு அல்வா ! with a finest gift wrap, from parliament.

he is yet to figure out , it as an halwa, and our man is busy glorifying his break---fast, tomorrow morning.

lets discuss tomorrow morning after glancing tomorrows editorials.. the cabbie is fooled with politically correct words.., i can sense that easily

anna has to get cured of his pancreas/kidney/liver damages, and get prepared for one more fast for the upcoming winter session of parliament.



The 'sense of the House' was adopted with thumping of desks without any voting after an extraordinary debate in both the Lok Sabha and the Rajya Sabha on the statement made by finance minister Pranab Mukherjee on issues related to the Lokpal Bill. :toi
 
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9744357.cms


[video]http://photogallery.indiatimes.com/news/india/i-am-anna/articleshow/9744357.cms[/video]

9744346.cms
 
I listened to CHO Ramasamy yesterday... To my surprise, CHO is throwing cold water on Anna!

Wake up, Anna: What you do WILL weaken Democratic Process!

Suicidal Dance will not cut it!! That's a very cheap trick in your hat!

Compete in Election, be a Prime Minster, and change India, if you can!!

Stay tuned.
 
Here is the Editorial from N. Ram of The Hindu today:

"Significant victory


SHARE · COMMENT · PRINT · T+


Parliament's unanimous adoption of a resolution agreeing “in principle” with Team Anna's position on the three sticking points that prolonged the standoff on the Lokpal legislation is a triumph for the anti-corruption mood in the country — and for the Gandhian technique of non-violent mass agitation on issues of vital concern to the people. Anna Hazare and his team deserve full credit for recognising and riding this popular mood, which showed plenty of signs of becoming a wave; for giving concrete shape to the inchoate aspirations of the movement against corruption through the provisions of the Jan Lokpal Bill; and for working out a strategy and tactics that refused to compromise on the core issues but knew when to raise the stakes and when to settle. As for the political players, the major opposition parties did well to recognise the soundness of the core demands of Team Anna and keep up the pressure on the government. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and the politically savvy elements in the United Progressive Alliance regime can also take some credit for the way they finally acted to resolve this crisis.
What is clear to everyone — except the unreconstructed elements within the political system who have long been opposed to a strong, independent, and effective statutory authority to go after corruption at all levels — is that the Lokpal Bill that was introduced in Parliament by the government and is now before a Standing Committee lies thoroughly discredited. The government must not be guided by those in its ranks who advocate some kind of rearguard action in committee or on the floor of the House to go back on commitments made. The fact is that in sum, that is, in the parliamentary resolution and during the preceding rounds of discussion with Team Anna, the government conceded the following key demands. In addition to Ministers, Members of Parliament (subject to Article 105 of the Constitution), and Group ‘A' officers, the Prime Minister at one end and the lower bureaucracy at the other will be brought under the jurisdiction of the Lokpal. Secondly, under the same statute, strong and effective Lokayuktas on the same model as the Lokpal will be established in all States. Team Anna contends that no constitutional problem is involved here since the Lokpal legislation deals with substantive and procedural criminal law, which is covered by Entries 1 and 2 of the Concurrent List in the Constitution. The bottom-line is that it makes no sense to have a strong and effective Lokpal to investigate and prosecute central public servants for corruption while having defunct or no Lokayuktas in States. Thirdly, the Lokpal legislation will provide for a grievance redressal system, requiring all public authorities to prepare a citizen's charter and make commitments to be met within a specified time frame. Constitutionally speaking, these arrangements are covered by Entry 8 of the Concurrent List dealing with actionable wrongs. Whether the Lokpal or another authority established under the same law will oversee this grievance redressal system remains an open question. For its part, Team Anna has agreed that judges need not come under the Lokpal provided a credible and independent Judicial Conduct Commission, free from conflict of interest and empowered to investigate and prosecute charges of corruption against judges, is established by law. Unfortunately, the contentious issue of a selection committee for the Lokpal could not be resolved. But considering that virtually everyone outside the UPA seems opposed to the official Lokpal Bill's provision that the government will nominate five of the nine members of the selection committee, this can probably be regarded as a dead letter.
There are some excellent provisions in the Jan Lokpal Bill that have gone mostly unnoticed. For instance, Section 6(o) provides that the Lokpal can recommend the cancellation or modification of a lease, licence, permission, contract or agreement obtained from a public authority by corrupt means; if the public authority rejects the recommendation, the Lokpal can “approach [the] appropriate High Court for seeking appropriate directions to be given to the public authority.” It can also press for the blacklisting of those involved in acts of corruption. Then there is Section 31(1), which stipulates that “no government official shall be eligible to take up jobs, assignments, consultancies, etc. with any person, company, or organisation that he had dealt with in his official capacity.” Section 31(2) provides that “all contracts, public-private partnerships, transfer by way of sale, lease, and any form of largesse by any public authority shall be done with complete transparency and by calling for public tender/auction/bids unless it is an emergency measure or where it is not possible to do so for reasons to be recorded in writing.” And Section 31(3) requires that “all contracts, agreements or MOUs known by any name related to transfer of natural resources, including land and mines to any private entity by any method like public-private partnerships, sale, lease or any form of largesse by any public authority shall be put on the website within a week of being signed.”
In appraising what has happened over the past fortnight, a red herring needs to be got out of the way — the idea of the ‘supremacy of Parliament' versus everyone who comes up against it. Parliamentarians who assert this need to learn their Constitution. In India, unlike Britain, Parliament is not supreme; the Constitution is. Nor is law-making “the sole prerogative” of Parliament. The significant victory of the anti-corruption campaigners gives political India a rare opportunity to translate fine anti-corruption sentiments into a potent law that can be a game-changer. The challenge before the people of India is to ensure, by keeping up the pressure, that in the tricky business of law making in committee and on the floor of the Houses of Parliament a potentially powerful instrument is not blunted."

Please compare this with what assurances that the "Sense of the House" conveyed to Anna Hazare.....

1. To consider including the lower bureaucracy
2. To consider formation of Lokuktha in the States
3. To consider citizens charter in Gov't Departments

in the final form of Lokpal Bill, subject to the views of the Standing Committee.

How is THIS a Significant Victory to Anna & Crowd? What did they ask for BEFORE the Suicidal Dance?

"Pass the Jan Lokpal Bill which has the sitting PM, the MPs in the Parliament and Judiciary included and covered, before the end of Aug 30 2011.."

What did they get thru the "Sense of the House" from the Parliament?

N. Ram is pulling a rabbit from his hat once again in the last para:

"In India, unlike Britain, Parliament is not supreme; the Constitution is. Nor is law-making “the sole prerogative” of Parliament."

Yes, Constitution is supreme, agreed. Who else can make law in India other than the Parliament?

Cheers.

 
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The position is not so very clear to me. I tend to place a lot of importance to the exposés by Shri Lalu Prasad Yadav. I am convinced that the whole "Anna nautanki" was orchestrated by some vested interests whose interests well suited Anna's also. (Anna himself runs a number of NGOs and trusts and I am not convinced about his being a selfless Gandhian and all that.)

I think irrespective of which is Supreme - Parliament or the Constitution - in India, the Lokpal bill will now be drafted and completed in accordance with the accepted procedures. The only crucial point we may have to see is whether NGOs are brought within the purview of LP or not. The rest of the items are just ornamentation for making the agitation seem momentous to the gullible public.

Anyway Kiran Bedi and Om Puri have been charged with Contempt of Parliament and this should show who is supreme, the Janata or the Parliament.
 
clip from TOI.

Calling the Hazare-led movement a "copy bookWorld Bank agenda", Roy said "It was an NGO-driven movement by Kiran Bedi, (Arvind) Kejriwal and (Manish) Sisodia.

"Three of them run NGOs and all the three core team members are Magsaysay Award winners..." (and they asked anna to set a rule, that Magsasay award winners can only be to top team added to nobel winners)

"Obviously people joined in but all of them were not middle class and many came for a sort of reality show well orchestrated by media campaigns," she said.

"For a nation of one billion people, the media did not find anything else to report. Certain major TV channels campaigned for said to be doing so. That's a kind of corruption for me at first place," she said.

"If it was only for TPR then why not to settle for pornography or something which gives more TRP?" she asked.
 
Corruption in NGOs or private sector can be investigated by government machinery and the guilty can be hounded, raided, properties attached and sent to jail. Existing laws do permit punishment of the guilty in these sectors without waiting for permission from a higher authority. The politicians, bureaucrats and government servants cannot be easily touched even when visibly corrupt.

Tarun das told nira radia that kamalnath will do the job if he gets 15% cut. What each gets must be bulletin board announcement in government circles.

Swamy had to wait for a long time even to get a response from the PM; permission to prosecute will never come. Corrupt politicians will get promotions - minister to governor or to world bank or united nations.

So anna hazare's focus on corruption in government is valid and relevant. He did now swerve from this despite efforts from agnivesh and other detractors.

anna hazare has been fighting corruption in maharashtra - from panchayat to mantralaya. The best he could achieve was resignation of ministers, not punitive punishment.

Long live anna; NGOs supporting him deserve kudos.
 
The politicians, bureaucrats and government servants cannot be easily touched even when visibly corrupt.

Long live anna; NGOs supporting him deserve kudos.

how about this situation..

Kanchi Periyava's audio tape of corrupting the judge and getting referred to JanLokPal subsequently verified by to team of anna/kiran bedi, and delivering an instant punishment to both bribe given and bribe taken within 1 year as stipulated by JLP, instead of the 7 year old long trials in pondicherry court?

do you think, we have a strong system in place to deliver justice in 2 years time, in a time, were the assassins of the prime minister is yet to get the final verdict even after 20 years.

do you think quick justice can deliver the absolute justice in 2 years time?
 
Santosh Hegde: In Sept 2010, parliament cleared 17 bills in 12 minutes, one of them was to dilute the Prevention of Corruption Act.

For some reason the three sections of the Prevention of Corruption Act which Parliament was set to dilute in terms of going soft on prosecution of government officers, who indulged in corruption and illegal commercial transactions, did not go to the Rajya Sabha. Otherwise, this amendment (along with the 17 bills that were passed in 12 minutes on a single day in September 2010), would have showed that the political class sitting in Parliament, which pompously boasts about 'parliamentary supremacy', was not interested in removing corruption, but was in fact keen to condone it, says Santosh Hegde, member of the joint drafting committee of the Lokpal Bill.

Bharatkalyan97: Parliament supreme? It passed 17 bills in 12 minutes of Sept. 2010: Santosh Hegde
 
It is the failure of opposition in parliament in its duty that has caused emergence of Anna Hazare & Co. When the growth of Corruption has started affecting day to day life of common man, he wanted to show his resentment in some form or other. The emergence of Anna Hazare's movement at this juncture was a God sent opportunity for the public to show their resentment against the establishment. This may be a beginning and may continue further if the results do not reach the common man.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 
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namaste shrI Kalabairavan.Seems that URL is masked here, so I shall give it this way. Remove the spaces: http : // brahmins . makeforum . net /
 
In Hindsight,
Let us briefly analyse what Anna has Achived.
1)He has created a Great public Awareness against Corruption.
2)Vis a Vis Govt.He has not achived what he wanted the Govt. do.That is Pass a Bill in the Lok shaba in line with Jan lokpal.
3)His Claims/Demands were Gradually compromised.What he stood for Initially to What ended up finally doesn't add Honour to him.
Jai Hind.
Alwan
 
In Hindsight,
Let us briefly analyse what Anna has Achived.
1)He has created a Great public Awareness against Corruption.
2)Vis a Vis Govt.He has not achived what he wanted the Govt. do.That is Pass a Bill in the Lok shaba in line with Jan lokpal.
3)His Claims/Demands were Gradually compromised.What he stood for Initially to What ended up finally doesn't add Honour to him.
Jai Hind.
Alwan

Shri Alwan,

I do not think Anna "created a Great public Awareness against Corruption"; the people were more than fed up completely with corruption and Anna's fast easily became a channel for the metro-based people to come to Ramlila and show their participation too. Otherwise, even if there was a record crowd of one crore people (of all ages and both genders), it will make only less than one % of India's population. We do not as yet know what the average poor farmer in, say, Bihar or Jharkhand or Orissa feels about this Annalila ;)
 
Sangom Sir,
Look at this way.The crowd for Anna's lila made Govt backtrack its initial actions of Putting him in Thihar.One after other from the Govt were forced to have Dialogues with Team Anna.The Govt won't handle Anna as they did with Baba RamDev.KapilSibal was not allowed to show his Mouth.This all due to the Govt fear of People strength which ofcourse was overdone by Channel.'Madiel Ganam.Vazhil Bayam' for the Govt.That effect was produced by Anna and not by Baba.
Jai Hind.
 
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