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Anna Hazare - His New Drama: Political Opposition is Pandering to Anna

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Yamaka

New member
Hello ALL:

The Parliamentary Standing Committee consisting of ALL parties has come up with the Lokpal Bill.

Now Anna & Co are angry and they want "their version" to be the Final Version. And the spineless Opposition is pandering to the tricks and tactics of Anna!

I care more about the Democratic Parliamentary Process. I don't have a stand on the particular Version of the Lokpal Bill.

The Hindu : News / National : Opposition backs Team Anna on PM, lower bureaucracy

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2706848.ece


What say you?

Most countries give IMMUNITY to the Chief Executive like the President of the US. If the PM of India doesn't get such IMMUNITY, can he/she really ACT w/o hesitation and wasting lots of time?
 
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I care more about the Democratic Parliamentary Process. I don't have a stand on the particular Version of the Lokpal Bill.
What is democratic parliamentary process? parliament is run by bunch of jokers and scoundrals. the govt. is inefficient in tackling any problem happening.
one by one corruption is erupting in the country. Common man can not sit quiet and watch. He has got the weapon in the name of Anna. In the present situation there is no other alternative.
 
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Yamaka

New member
What is democratic parliamentary process? parliament is run by bunch of jokers and scoundrals. the govt. is inefficient in tackling any problem happening.
one by one corruption is erupting in the country. Common man can not sit quiet and watch. He has got the weapon in the name of Anna. In the present situation there is no other alternative.

Hello Ram:

In my mind what Anna does will not work and should not work.

Only the properly run - meaning no fraud - Election is the right weapon. Aam Admi has voted the UPA II to power. They must be given a chance to implement their Political Manifesto that they promised in the last Election.

Political Opposition is throwing mud in the gear box of the Govt, which is not good for anybody. Parliament should be allowed to work and produce well thought out legislation, which requires robust debate in the Chambers.

Anna is representing his NGO, which is already very corrupt.. He is abusing and misusing the name of Gandhiji and his political weapon FASTING for political legitimacy.

Corruption is an endemic problem in all of the Society (starting from the Supreme Court to the peon in a small office, both private and public).

Just by passing his version of Lokpal, Anna can't achieve anything, except a well oiled ego. His understanding of the issue is very sophomoric - very shallow, IMO.

Wait & watch.
 

geetu habibah

New member
Everyone should be given a chance to prove their worth.Lets Anna Hazare try to make some changes.At least he is making an effort not like many of us who just talk and type from our broadband connected lap tops and do nothing for anyone else besides feeding our own egos.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Everyone should be given a chance to prove their worth.Lets Anna Hazare try to make some changes.At least he is making an effort not like many of us who just talk and type from our broadband connected lap tops and do nothing for anyone else besides feeding our own egos.

There is a problem with this assumptions. You are abdicating the constitution of India. I agree with Mr. Yamaka.
1. One must be convinced that democratic process is broken and can not work.
2. You are willing to give power to a dictator, and hope for the best. But generally that has lead to drastic failures. Look around you Mussharaf, Sadat, Idi Amin, do I need to name any more.

Doing something is better than nothing, assumes that the something is worthwhile doing. Passing a legislation has never achieved anything, unless a corruption less enforcement is guaranteed. Passing one version is purely for ego satisfaction.

I know government is corrupt, but in a democracy you can technically throw them out. But I will never accept a dictator, a NGO (that too a corrupt one).
 
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Yamaka

New member
Here is my two cents on Anna and his followers:

If they are really serious, get fully involved in the Electoral Process - meaning

1. Let Anna start his own Political Party and form the Core Platform: No Corruption, No Discrimination, Equal Opportunity for ALL People of India (or the like etc.).

2. Compete in UP or MH or wherever they want, get elected as MPs - they can grow to be a National Party, if they get traction.

3. Go to the Parliament as MPs and work within the Democratic Process. Change India from inside the Parliament - the real seat of Power in India.

And, remember it's a very hard work.

You need to raise plenty of money to compete in Elections, and political opposition will be intense. Press will not give a easy pass on anything you do. You will be ridiculed like jokers and novices w/o the concept of democracy and due process etc.

Is Anna Hazare ready for the Prime Time? Is he a Heavy Weight Boxer? Or some street "graffiti writer"?

Wait & watch.

:)
 
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suraju06

Well-known member
Ramanasukumar in post #2

What is democratic parliamentary process? parliament is run by bunch of jokers and scoundrals. the govt. is inefficient in tackling any problem happening.one by one corruption is erupting in the country. Common man can not sit quiet and watch. He has got the weapon in the name of Anna. In the present situation there is no other alternative.

and prasad1 in #5:

1. One must be convinced that democratic process is broken and can not work.
2. You are willing to give power to a dictator, and hope for the best. But generally that has lead to drastic failures. Look around you Mussharaf, Sadat, Idi Amin, do I need to name any more.

If democracy remains truly democracy there is enough provision within it to change the injustice if any. But most of the so called democracies are nothing but majorityist regimes. Democracy is used as the means to come to power and then they turn majorityist regimes. Thus they wreck democracies from within using the democratic institutions. It is in such circumstances that the right thinking people in the society take up the weapon of peaceful struggle and civil disobedience to highlight the dangers and press for a change. In dictatorships such struggles would be nipped in the bud and the concerned individuals will be put behind bars or liquidated. So in a autocratic set up people take up arms. In India the democracy has been wrecked completely by majorityism. They turn every loophole in the system to their advantage and enrich themselves at the cost of the country. When you have to pay a mamool to get a death certificate from the Tahsildar, to get admission in the engineering college, to get your tender considered by the panchayat, to get a spectrum of wave lengths allotted to you, top get your building plan approved by the city planning board, to get your design registered with the intellectual property rights authority, to get a bail from the local court if you are unfortunate to get involved in an offence that means the system has become completely corrupted and does deserve a surgical correction. India is the only country in which the following incident can happen:

A and B are colleagues who work in the same Government Department. They sit in the same office and their work stations are just contiguous. A looks after Provident Fund collections on behalf employees in various offices in the country and B looks after the loans that employees seek from their accrued Provident Fund Balance. If A is himself in need of a loan on his own PF accruals, and if he puts in an application for that, he has to bribe B to get it sanctioned.

What do you call this? Anna Hazaare is right. We need to put every one in power under a surveillance system which should have the power to punish too severely with death as a rule and not an exception.
 
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Yamaka

New member
Democracy and Majority Principle - A Commentary


1. Democracy means rule by the power of the people. As opposed to by some autocrats, monarchs, or elitists etc.

2. Majority Principle is the operational basis of democracy. If two candidates compete for power, whoever gets better than the half of the votes in a well organized Election (Election Fraud must be stopped at all costs by some Authority like the Chief Election Commissioner of India) will win that power.

If there are more than two candidates, then the plurality of votes matter. (please note the distinction between majority and plurality).

There is no other known method which can be followed in a true Democracy, period.

3. The electorate (people or the citizens) must be educated very well about the ability, qualifications and promises of the candidates competing for that People's Power.

Sadly, many people in India sell their votes for a trivial price. That's the real problem in India.

4. India needs a very responsible media (electronic and printing) to educate the people on all issues confronting the nation.

Sadly, many behave like cheap Entertainers, and are in the deep-pockets of Corporates. Their vested interest is the serious problem in India.

5. Lack of good liberal education is the root cause of ALL ills in the Society.

Anna Hazare is acting on the emotions of the innocent people who don't understand how his NGO operates, and who underwrites his activities!! That's very sad.

More later....
 
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suraju06

Well-known member
The ways of majorityism-a commentary:

(1)"Democracy means rule by the power of the people". Yes but to complete the sentence and make some meaning out of it we have to add: "for the welfare of all the people including the minorities who voted against the ruling party in the election".

(2)Majority principle is the fountain head of power but that power has to be exercised by the majority for the welfare of the people at large (including the minority) and not to wreck the democratic society/nation which scripted the majority principle.

(3)When are we going to stop this charade of "educating the electorate"? After 64 years of working with democracy, elections and majorityism if we are still going to say that we have to educate the electorate, is it not that we are cheating ourselves? The principle of majorityism as practised in Indian politics/parliament is such that it allows no scope for informed debate or accommodation of contrary views. Only when a Anna Hazaare starts a civil disobedience movement or a naxalite group plays havoc with establishment that there are some stirrings of waking up. All other times, it is deep slumber of people and the day is carried by the unquestioned corrupt politicians.

(4)A media which covers up misdeeds of politicians in the name of good sense of parliament members or decorum etc., fails in its duty. Luckily in India we have a media live to its responsibilities.

(5)Lack of good education is some thing which we have been citing for the last 64+ years.

(6)Any one who questions the majorityist Government's actions has to be first discredited by innuendos, hearsays and allegations. Next they have to challenged to form a political party, participate in a general election and win against the majorityist money bags and their proxies-political parties. Thirdly,they have to be threatened with dire consequences so that their supporters take the cue and disengage, allowing the field free for the corrupt politicians to make their millions(1,76,000 crores is how many millions?) plundering the nation. Some democracy this!! Long live democracy!!!
 
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Yamaka

New member
Anna Hazare is playing with the emotions of people and he is paving a way for Autocracy in India.

Is this what needed in India today?

What's needed is widespread liberal Education in India:

Education in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As per Wiki, a whole 25% of Indians are totally illiterate, only 15% of students go to high school, and only 7% of the students graduate from there. This is after 64 years of Self-Rule, the Independence.

This must dramatically improve for the Democracy to function optimally. Maybe, it could take 100 more years!

The essence of Democracy is One Vote for One Person, and the Majority/Plurality Principle.

If Indians don't like this, then they have to succumb to the brutality of Autocracy or Elitism in India.

Tyranny of the Majority is happening in totally different sphere of life in India: The Hindutva Doctrine of the BJP and the Sangh Parivar!

Thankfully, many Indians oppose it...

Wait & watch.
 
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prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Representative democracy may not be the most efficient form of government, but it is better than all other form of governments.
There is definite room to improve it. Is it being manipulated? Of course it is being manipulated. So let us elect better candidates. But destroying an institution with out having an alternative is definite prescription for chaos.

I do not trust the wiki statistics. In India Illiterate is not stupid, they are able to participate in the election process.
http://www.indiaedu.com/education-india/
The literacy rate in India is 74.04% as per Census 2011. The literacy rate in case of females is 65.46% and that of males is 82.14%.
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/india_statistics.html
Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, male 88%
Youth (15-24 years) literacy rate, 2004-2008*, female 74%

http://stats.uis.unesco.org/unesco/...?ReportId=121&IF_Language=eng&BR_Country=3560
LITERACY RATES
Literacy rates199120062009
Regional average
Adult
(15+)
%
MF
48.2
62.8
62.3
M
61.6
75.2
73.5
F
33.7
50.8
51.3
Youth
(15-24)
%
MF
61.9
81.1
79.7
M
73.5
88.4
85.9
F
49.3
74.4
73.8
62.8% of adults and 81.1% of youth are literate
ChartPic_001651.png
 
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B.Krishnamurthy

Active member
IMHO Indian democracy need to be strengthened by giving more powers to
Panchayat Instituitions.The members of LOK SABHA should be elected by the elected members of a number of Panchayat called Panchayat unions with a provision for recall of such elected members.
ACCOUNTABILITY is lacking in the present system of democratic governance in India.
When new governments take oath in every state,the first casuality is all elected co-operatives and Panchayats.This power of the State Governments need to be curbed.
 

sangom

Well-known member
IMHO Indian democracy need to be strengthened by giving more powers to
Panchayat Instituitions.The members of LOK SABHA should be elected by the elected members of a number of Panchayat called Panchayat unions with a provision for recall of such elected members.
ACCOUNTABILITY is lacking in the present system of democratic governance in India.
When new governments take oath in every state,the first casuality is all elected co-operatives and Panchayats.This power of the State Governments need to be curbed.

Shri BK sir,

Except perhaps in Kerala and some north-east states, the panchayats are controlled on caste-basis. Even in predominantly christian and muslim panchayats, the 'caste' reverberates very forcefully. In order to comply with official requirements, SC/ST people are nominally "elected" as panchayat members and/or panchayat presidents but they are not allowed (permitted) to sit in the chair and all decisions are taken by the powerful higher castes. This is the real, naked truth in most Indian states once you travel some hundred or so miles from the state capitals.

This is the result of a confidential study conducted by GOI and my cousin's son was associated with this study by the agency which was commissioned by GOI for this study (he headed the study as a senior partner of that agency). He had some words of praise for Kerala because the downtrodden folks here do not allow the high caste people (hindu, muslim, christian) to interfere in the Panchayat level, though at the state level, the scene is different, it seems. My cousin gave the credit for the awareness at the low level, to the spread of communism in Kerala which taught the people that everyone has some rights and all are equal (but, alas, forgot the responsibility part, perhaps!).
 

suraju06

Well-known member
Democracy and Majority Principle - A Commentary-2

(1)One person with one vote is a convenient arrangement for giving a mandate and just that. The crucial point which is usually overlooked by majorityists is that the mandate is only to rule as per the constitution. Honesty,selflessness and unwavering loyalty to the constitution are presumed. The election is only to choose who should be given the mandate to rule and not to choose how should they rule. To decide as to how should a country be ruled there is another instrument called referendum. Every election is not a referendum in which basic constitution is voted on.

(2)If the people who have been given the mandate prove to be cheats they should be punished after due enquiry. Anna Hazaare is only demanding for this provision. His personality has rough edges because of his background. But his sincerity is beyond doubt. He is not suave but being suave is not the prime requirement to speak for the people.

(3) India would do well to free CBI from the control of the ruling party and give the Lokpal teeth. Taking the control away from Govt and making CBI independent would mean everything-day to day control in appointments, funding, staffing, control as well as audit. Otherwise Lokpal will be a toothless wonder and politicians would swallow it alive and digest it instantly.

(4) the marked reluctance, the dragging of the feet, the attempt to discredit those leading the movement, the dilly dallying etc., only makes the citizens of the country very suspicious that the politicians have some thing big to hide.
 
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suraju06

Well-known member
This from Silicon India News makes interesting reading:

Bangalore: "Why is an honest Prime Minister like Manmohan Singh scared of Lokpal?" - Team Anna asked months back and today, amidst mounting pressures from the civil and the political class in the country, the Congress Party is yet to find an answer. Manmohan Singh had initially offered himself to be brought under the purview of Lokpal Bill; however, during the course of dialogues, PM mysteriously choose to take a U-turn on the issue.
manmoor.jpg





The opposition parties seem to have come together for this single cause and sharing the stage of protest with the anti-corruption crusader Anna Hazare, they demanded in unity for the inclusion of Prime Minister and Grade-C bureaucrats under the Lokpal's ambit. The opposition parties are all set to take up the issue during the all-party meet on Wednesday. BJP has decided to move an amendment motion on Lokpal if the demands for inclusion of prime minister, lower bureaucracy and Citizens' Charter are not met.



The civil society argues that non-inclusion of prime minster under the purview of Lokapal will shrink the scope of the proposed anti-corruption law and termed the government move a retrograde step. It strives for a flawless anticorruption law that includes not just a small band of officers, but everyone right from top to bottom in the administrative ladder – a law that can ensure an honest investigation and an honest prosecution.



Meanwhile Shiromani Akali Dal MP, Bathinda Harsimrat Kaur Badal alleged that it's an attempt from the UPA government to shield the PM-in-waiting, Rahul Gandhi against any prosecution in the future.



Anna Hazre had earlier questioned the real power of the prime minister on this issue and said, the PM is ‘scared’ of being brought under ombudsman's purview, may be because he was “remote-controlled” by someone.



The agitating group is firm on its demand to bring the Central Bureau of Investigation under the ambit of the Lakpal and a key member of the civil society, Kiran Bedi claimed that there is a total consensus on the fact that the investigative wing should be taken out of political control. “The only confusion remaining is whether the Lokpal should include the investigative agency or it should oversee the agency,” she told in a debate in NDTV.



In this era of coalition governments, the Congress Party fears that subjecting the prime minister of the country under any investigation can trigger instability. However, the reports emerging from different sources of late indicate that under severe pressure from within the allies, opposition and civil society, the government may consider bringing Prime Minister and Group C employees under the ambit of Lokpal with certain conditions.
 
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Yamaka

New member
Literacy Level, Democracy and the Lokpal Bill - An Observation

1. As per the latest information, about 26% of India's population just can't read, write or do simple addition and subtraction (here defined as literate). This is about 310 million Indian citizens.

2. Every year there are about 25 million new births occur in India. I assume about 20 million children in each age group are ready to enter the schools for primary and secondary education every year.

3. According to the Article 21 A of the Constitution, Union and State Govt are obligated to give compulsory education to kids of age 6 to 14 in India. This is the so-called K-8 education equivalent to ESLC of the old system 50 years ago. If kids do this, they will be considered fully literate.. Remember, this does not include the High School education.

4. As per the latest data, only about 15% of the kids go to High School, and of this only half graduate from there.

5. This means the number of kids who have graduated from High School is about 7.5% of the total population: 90 million. A small number of this go to College and own a car (about 10 million Indians, the so called Upper Middle Class Indians).

The rest 1010 million of Indians don't have a full High School education... of this about 310 millions don't know how to write, read any language (they may barely speak their mother tongue). Most of this people earn under Rs.100 per day, thus living in abject poverty.

Now, to fully participate in Democracy, I contend that you need at least a full high school education. We have only 90 million Indians who can do it.

Others are illiterate or semi-illiterate, who just can't comprehend the Political Manifesto of different Parties.

This is the problem, a serious problem IMO. This needs to be addressed earnestly to strengthen Democracy in India.

6. As Arundhati Roy cautions this Lokpal will be another Super Structure perpetuating massive corruption in India.. This new Leviathan will compete with the old Structure to further torment the Indian Society.

Because, there are very many laws of Anti-Corruption already on the books, none can be implemented fully. For, all the courts, police, CBI and the Supreme Court are all overflowing with corrupt people..

Who will implement the New Lokpal, with or without the PM in it?

All waste of time and energy... a cheap political stunt.

More later..

:)
ps. The Chief Executive -the PM in India - should have Immunity in Office to act without fear of second guessing by unscrupulous political opposition. Dr. MMS may retire before the next Election in 2014.. But this New Monster - the Lokpal - will destroy any new Govt by NDA or UPA with impunity... Watch out... what you wish for?!!!
 
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MMS is a 'vayilla poochi'. The remote control to reply for everything. why they are silent? The politicians won't alllow Jan Lokpal Bill come into practice. It is a 'Kaanl Neer'.

Our Indian mentality is like that. We will always quarrel between ourselves. We are just crabs. We won't allow anybody to take credit.
 

kameshratnam

Active member
The president of the US can be questioned by a group of people and that can also be telecast live on tv and hence your point of immunity for the post of chief executive is well taken.

We had a person like H D Deve gowda as our PM and every saturday he used to land in bangalore and would leave to delhi On monday and he used his influence so much that almost 80 % of the karnataka ranji team played in indian test side in cricket matches.

MMS is a rubber stamp PM and in a country like india where there is a high chance that a CM can become the PM in 2014, the PM cannot be left out of LOK PAL.
Even if Lokpal scare reduces corruptioby 60 to 70% then its a blessing for this country
 
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Yamaka

New member
The president of the US can be questioned by a group of people and that can also be telecast live on tv and hence your point of immunity for the post of chief executive is well taken.

We had a person like H D Deve gowda as our PM and every saturday he used to land in bangalore and would leave to delhi On monday and he used his influence so much that almost 80 % of the karnataka ranji team played in indian test side in cricket matches.

MMS is a rubber stamp PM and in a country like india where there is a high chance that a CM can become the PM in 2014, the PM cannot be left out of LOK PAL.
Even if Lokpal scare reduces corruptioby 60 to 70% then its a blessing for this country

Most Indians believe that the corruption in the police, CBI, ED, courts including the Supreme Court and among all prosecutors is very rampant and highly entrenched.

That's why the existing Anti-Corruption laws on the books can't be enforced.

If you believe this, how do you expect that the the New Lokpal will reduce the corruption by 60% -70%? How long will it take to achieve this?

Is this not a wishful thinking? Now, you need to know WHY corruption is so rampant in India.

Not only politicians who are corrupt, everyone else is also somehow involved!

Both private and public sector people, believe me!

Cheers.

:)
 
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