Advice to Parents - Arrange for Inter-Brahmin marriage

[Nara]

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... nara is married to an ex tamil iyengar, as far as i know.

K, I was also little confused. I knew I was the one he was referring to, but got some details wrong. But, who knows, many who disagree with my views seem to criticize me personally instead of my views, and that too not directly, but hiding behind vague references.

For the record, I am very much married to a tamil iyengar. I don't think she thinks of herself as ex-Iyengar even though she shares my views on caste, but not on god. I myself am only an ex-Iyengar, but very much a Tamil atheist on a practical level and an agnostic in a technical sense.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

K, I was also little confused. I knew I was the one he was referring to, but got some details wrong. But, who knows, many who disagree with my views seem to criticize me personally instead of my views, and that too not directly, but hiding behind vague references.

For the record, I am very much married to a tamil iyengar. I don't think she thinks of herself as ex-Iyengar even though she shares my views on caste, but not on god. I myself am only an ex-Iyengar, but very much a Tamil atheist on a practical level and an agnostic in a technical sense.

Cheers!

aaaaaaaaaaaaahhh the root cause of our misunderstanding eh!

 

[Nara]

.....If there are more icms or ibms in the future, our TB community will magnanimously accept that also, I am sure.

Dear Shri sangom,

I do understand yours and Kunjupu's position. I am also in favor of moving the center of gravity of public comfort, the TB zeitgeist.

My concern is, IMO, proactively promoting NIB alliances for which the comfort level may not be any higher, and in parallel, showing virulent opposition to even offspring of icm, shows reactionary motivations. This is not the way to move the zeitgeist in the right direction, it will only reinforce caste solidarity at all cost.

Anyway, I will leave this issue at this.

BTW, IMO, "magnanimously" is something TBs have no idea about.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Dear Shri sangom,

I do understand yours and Kunjupu's position. I am also in favor of moving the center of gravity of public comfort, the TB zeitgeist.

My concern is, IMO, proactively promoting NIB alliances for which the comfort level may not be any higher, and in parallel, showing virulent opposition to even offspring of icm, shows reactionary motivations. This is not the way to move the zeitgeist in the right direction, it will only reinforce caste solidarity at all cost.

Anyway, I will leave this issue at this.

BTW, IMO, "magnanimously" is something TBs have no idea about.

Cheers!

We shall try to get a written opinion from the participants about their views. We shall conduct a survey of the estimated 200 plus participants and publish it here also.

Trivandrum is not a very conservative place and at the same time is not an ultra modern place. Trivandrum boys are placed in almost all parts of the world. Parents of such boys can give a clear guidance to us.

Let us wait till we get their opinion

All the best



We are not going to tell them to go this way or that way and they are going to decide their own path.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Excellent. I only wish I could attend the function. But then I am thousands of KMs away.

The reaction would be an indication. We have a long way to go.

With Best Wishes for the Success of your pioneering endeavor.

 

[Raghy]

Respectable members,

I am really afraid, this thread has gone wilder than it should have due to lack of directions and insights. The persons with insights are shouldered away by narrow views. I stayed as an observer for a while (Sri.Sangom, kindly pardon me for not replying to you, please).

A lone female voice is not encouraged to participate more. That female voice happens to be a NB, which should have been more reasons for encouraging that lady. She signed off with a very sensible post; I humbly ask that lady to share more of her views, importantly, show the ways we can improve the 'male thinking', please.

Sri.Nara knows the world. For crying out loud, he cuts his teeth handling youngsters aged between 18 and 25 on thy average. I would listen to him. Even if I want to 'fight with him', I would ask his advice to guide me in that. I wish to bring 'who is brahmanan' thread to your memory; I asked requested his help to debate with him; he helped me too. He advocates Intercaste marriage. He did not actually bolstered his reasons for that. Treating him like an enemy for making such suggestion is ridiculous, in my opinion.

Sri.Sangom and Sri. Kunjuppu are trying to guide for improvements, still observing the sashtra restrictions. I salute both those guys for their efforts to bring a positive change.

Sri.RVR, it is high time you realised that you are a leader. I think, you should better start thinking in the way of a leader. You like to deliver what the audience wants; cool, but do the audience know what they want?

Sri. Sankara Sharma, Your efforts to bring inter community marriage is commendable. It is a progress by itself. I salute you for that.

Nice? Now to the bitter medicine....Sri.Swaminatha Sharma advocates 'Brahmins only events'; There are others who think exactly like Sri.Swaminatha Sharma, but are not vocal. Sri.Swaminatha Sharma does not like the brahmin community wither away; he like the community to survive. That's why he hates to see any inter-caste mixing which may wipe away the brahmin tribe. I can clearly see where he comes from.
For a tribe to flourish, we have to increase the tribe population. Population can be increased by procreation. But it is a long process, the rate of procreation has to be higher than the break-even point, that is 2.3 children per couple. We don't seem to have that. The next option to maintain the tribe is by allowing other tribe members to join our tribe. In other words, we have to 'poach' the members. How are we going to do it? Marriages are the best method to do it. If we give the protection to the female of our tribe, the other tribe members chasing our female will have to join our tribe. If we do it for a couple of generations, then our female will not think about stepping outside. I can't think any other strategy would work (personally, I am not worried about any of this tribe feeling).

The swayamvarams are interesting....if the boys were not taken by the girls already, how can a swayamvaram meet chane the balance? Still we are after the same girls who rejected these boys in the first place....I am slightly confused here. By the way, how do we know that the boys have not rejected any girl before? The case may be....the boys are not getting the girls to their liking; the girls who are lining up to marry these boys may be rejected by these boys based on variuos factors. Did anybody discuss in those lines? From the information provided by Sri.RVR, only about 2% shortage of girls.... there are 98 girls for every 100 boys...come on! this is not shortage! Kindly show where I am wrong, please.

The Swayamvaram organisers have to be careful... if there are not reasonable alliances come through the event, we should not conduct more of the events. We should spend the time with the previous participants to make some positive changes. After 4 events, over 1,000 bachelors seeking bride...why do you like to conduct more events without helping out the already registered participants?

Few points to ponder, please. (I am leaving to Chennai on 30th June for 10 days. I may not respond immediately. I am sorry).

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Sri Raghy said. 'Sri.RVR, it is high time you realised that you are a leader. I think, you should better start thinking in the way of a leader. You like to deliver what the audience wants; cool, but do the audience know what they want?"

We are dealing with an audience which is most conservative probably except a few. We have to be more careful with this type of audience as any wrong step on our part will derail the whole effort.

Let us provoke the audience at TVM and try to get answers from them to fill the shortage of girls for 30 plus boys. If they are not coming forward, then let us move to the next step. Honestly we are going to interact with the audience about the shortage only at TVM. So far we playing the role of facilitators only.

The swayamvarams are interesting....if the boys were not taken by the girls already, how can a swayamvaram meet chane the balance? Still we are after the same girls who rejected these boys in the first place....I am slightly confused here. By the way, how do we know that the boys have not rejected any girl before? The case may be....the boys are not getting the girls to their liking; the girls who are lining up to marry these boys may be rejected by these boys based on variuos factors. Did anybody discuss in those lines? From the information provided by Sri.RVR, only about 2% shortage of girls.... there are 98 girls for every 100 boys...come on! this is not shortage! Kindly show where I am wrong, please.

The Swayamvaram organisers have to be careful... if there are not reasonable alliances come through the event, we should not conduct more of the events. We should spend the time with the previous participants to make some positive changes. After 4 events, over 1,000 bachelors seeking bride...why do you like to conduct more events without helping out the already registered participants?

The shortage is mainly for 30 plus boys. There seems to be not much of shortage for 30 minus boys.

Out of a population of 21 lakhs tamil brahmins, if we assume average age at 70, each age will have 30,000 population. For the age range of 30 to 40, the population is around 3,00,000. Normally there has to 1,50,000 boys and equal number of girls. If the mismatch is in the ratio of 102 boys for 98 girls, the shortage could be around 6,000 for the above. In our swayamvaram functions we came across 1000 plus boys and our estimate is maximum of 5000 boys which seems to match with my estimate.

We have identified this problem and are openly discussing here to get solutions. The brahmin associations are sleeping over the matter. While Kerala Brahmana Sabha officials discuss this matter informally, their counterparts `Tamilnadu Brahmins Association' doesn't bother about it at all.

Commercial matrimony groups are not at all bothered and they are exploiting the shortage to improve their business.

Since we are doing it as a community service, we have not only identified the problem but also started discussing it in this forum openly. This is happening after four events in the course of last eight months or so.

Now we are planning to put the shortage of girls before the audience at TVM and seek their views also. We shall also request them to log into our website and see the discussions about the subject here.

Let the solution evolve through consensus. Let us not force anything on anybody.

In the meantime, please bear with us.

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

rvr,

the mantle of leadership has fallen upon your shoulders, by virtue of the way you have handled issues, including the rancorous notes here in this post, some directed at you.

if that is not leadership, i do not know what is.

sir, i think, we might also have to think through some processes. suppose at TVM, a certain number (say 10 families) agree to venture into the world of ibm, maybe we should have some idea of what we hope to tell them re next steps.

it is best to be honest and not give them hopes, but seek them out on a joint partner in a journey of adventure & discovery. maybe we will have some ideas generated by these folks. maybe after the function, you might have to stay back a day or two, to bring together the people, ideas and next steps.

as the scouts say, 'be prepared'.

once again, rvr, congratulations for putting up with us hoary crowd, and making sense of sometimes senseless.

may your tribe increase

 

[nachi naga]

i think astro pundit sharma is fair and honest,in sayng tb marry withn tb.all of us want it,tha is elders.younger ppl may have other notios about such a marriage union,would rathr strike a match and light up their marriage as per their dictates of mind.more often than not,younger ppl have small chota mota flings prior to marriage,ditch them,blaming disapproval of parents,andmarry the choice of parents.this is happening regularly.

regarding the comment with vagueness,and which nara thinks,he is being targetted personally,is truly absurd.only a guilty conscience will think like that or unless one is a rocket scineticts and reads minds in the forum,huh?if pundit sharma,expresses his opinion,i can safely write,this the wish of all parents,includung nara,if i dare say.as far writing goes,nobody is attacking anyone personally,only the idea is scotched down (jhonny walker style) .lets not get too personal,and attract moderators to ban ppl, and the moderators usually listen to complaints from forum members more often than not.

 

[RVR]

rvr,

the mantle of leadership has fallen upon your shoulders, by virtue of the way you have handled issues, including the rancorous notes here in this post, some directed at you.

if that is not leadership, i do not know what is.

sir, i think, we might also have to think through some processes. suppose at TVM, a certain number (say 10 families) agree to venture into the world of ibm, maybe we should have some idea of what we hope to tell them re next steps.

it is best to be honest and not give them hopes, but seek them out on a joint partner in a journey of adventure & discovery. maybe we will have some ideas generated by these folks. maybe after the function, you might have to stay back a day or two, to bring together the people, ideas and next steps.

as the scouts say, 'be prepared'.

once again, rvr, congratulations for putting up with us hoary crowd, and making sense of sometimes senseless.

may your tribe increase [/QUOTE

Kunjuppu ji,

We have already started tapping the other side of IBM. The other side of IBM is also not desperate to jump into anything.

Even if one or two agree at TVM, let us try complete the alliance so that we can make a beginning at least.

It is going to be a long drawn process and we, all the organisers, are mentally prepared for it.

Last year when we started this problem, we decided to go for swayavaram functions. We have definitely helped at least ten percent of the participants.

If we have to improve the percentage of success, participation of girls has to improve. We have waived the participation fee for girls at TVM (clear gender discrimination which personally I am unable to digest). It seems to work and registration of ladies is definitely better as compared to previous programs. In the previous programs, we had more than 25% girls participation only at Bangalore.

Let us try all possible methods to satisfy our boys.

All the best

 

[uvsharma]

Organisers of swayamvaram functions are doing everything in a methodical way.

They have already identified the problem facing our boys and are openly discussing the same in this forum

Mr. RVR has committed to discuss the same with participants in the Thiruvananthapuram event and get their views also.

I am sure they will not take any hasty step in arriving at a solution to the vexed problem of shortage of girls.

Lot of us are waiting for the outcome.

 

[Nara]

....We shall conduct a survey of the estimated 200 plus participants and publish it here also.

Dear RVR sir,

Gauging public opinion is good. Here are some questions that will be helpful to find answers for.

1. What do the youngsters think about icm for themselves or others?
2. How widespread is the opposition to children of icm participating?
3. How many will boycott the event altogether if icm is offered as a possibility for those who are interested?

Couple of caveats:

• Not too much can be made from the opinion gathered in Thirvanandapuram either way, it is not representative
• Shaping public opinion for the better is a mark of good leadership. George Wallace, Alabama Governor in the 60s said "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" and he was considered a great leader by the southern whites. MLK through his leadership persuaded the white majority to be less racist. George Wallace type leadership that reinforces long held prejudices is not going to help TBs, the need of TBs is MLK type leadership.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

யாரோ ஒருத்ததர் எழுதி இருக்ககார்.
செட்டியார் பொண்ணை தன்னுடைய பையனுக்கு கட்டி வைக்ககனும்னு......

வச்சுகோங்கோ......

அப்புறம் என்னாத்துக்கு இங்க வர்ரேள்னு கேட்குறேன் ????

Is this site not for Brahmins ???? or for parents wishing to get married with Chettiar Families.....

Only God Knows and Moderators knows what is going on here....

And Mr. Kunjuppu... I hv quoted the real exprerience, what i hv quoted... I dunno why u r linking my msg with your ur KARPANAI....and Mudifichifying with someone else.

perhaps u can become a best Screen Play Director ) according to me.....

hehehehhe

nunna sonnale ponga,besh besh.:becky:

 

[nachi naga]

Dear RVR sir,

Gauging public opinion is good. Here are some questions that will be helpful to find answers for.

1. What do the youngsters think about icm for themselves or others?
2. How widespread is the opposition to children of icm participating?
3. How many will boycott the event altogether if icm is offered as a possibility for those who are interested?

Couple of caveats:

• Not too much can be made from the opinion gathered in Thirvanandapuram either way, it is not representative
• Shaping public opinion for the better is a mark of good leadership. George Wallace, Alabama Governor in the 60s said "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" and he was considered a great leader by the southern whites. MLK through his leadership persuaded the white majority to be less racist. George Wallace type leadership that reinforces long held prejudices is not going to help TBs, the need of TBs is MLK type leadership.

Cheers!

mlk followed gandhian principle and a lover of jesus christ.gandhi was a lover of krishna.so all these ppl what they say will have some impact and credibility.agnostics or atheist like mk ultimately fall at the feet of bhagavan sathya sai baba.baba must be thinking,athiests my foot:roll:

just becoz tbs follow their sampradayam in non-violent way,why anyone will get mad,except for trouble mongers.

In Ordinary Lives, U.S. Sees the Work of Russian Agents - NYTimes.com

wonder how many are american or indian spies here?looks like james bond 007 is baaaaaaaaaaaccccccccccckkkkkkkk

 

[rajesh]

mlk followed gandhian principle and a lover of jesus christ.gandhi was a lover of krishna.so all these ppl what they say will have some impact and credibility.agnostics or atheist like mk ultimately fall at the feet of bhagavan sathya sai baba.baba must be thinking,athiests my foot:roll:

just becoz tbs follow their sampradayam in non-violent way,why anyone will get mad,except for trouble mongers.

In Ordinary Lives, U.S. Sees the Work of Russian Agents - NYTimes.com

wonder how many are american or indian spies here?looks like james bond 007 is baaaaaaaaaaaccccccccccckkkkkkkk

Nachi, Your post does not make any sense. You say a lot of things like atheists falling in sai baba's feet and all that, but please can you substantiate them with some kind of arguments? And what are you suggesting by mentioning about spies? Do you mean that there are some spies in this forum. Its all very confusing!

 

[sangom]

Not too much can be made from the opinion gathered in Thirvanandapuram either way, it is not representative

• Shaping public opinion for the better is a mark of good leadership. George Wallace, Alabama Governor in the 60s said "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever" and he was considered a great leader by the southern whites. MLK through his leadership persuaded the white majority to be less racist. George Wallace type leadership that reinforces long held prejudices is not going to help TBs, the need of TBs is MLK type leadership.

Cheers!

Dear Nara,

TVPM may not be representative. But I am getting a feeling that the TB parents (and perhaps boys also) are of the view that the Naveenaswayamvaram (NS) is something which will facilitate their finding suitable brides for their boys. If the topic of icm is mentioned their reaction is likely to be, வேறே சாதிக்கல்யாநம் நாங்களே பார்த்துப்போமே , நீங்க வந்து சொல்லித்தர என்னிருக்கு?

That being the position now, we may as well leave the matter to the full discretion of the organisers of the NS and await what happens in TVPM.

Though I did argue earlier for icms rather than ibms, I am becoming more and more aware of the limitations for the NS organisers. Perhaps if Kanchi Acharya and/or Sringeri Acharya will give a green signal for ibms in the context of NS (I doubt whether they will consider icm even if we give all statistics and all that), slowly people will move in favour of ibms.

MLK had a religious side (Clergyman whose opinion was heard and obeyed) also, did he not? Secondly it was the mirror image of our situation - the deprived classes asking for equality whereas in our case it is the deprived classes being woed by the other side.

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Organisers of swayamvaram functions are doing everything in a methodical way.

They have already identified the problem facing our boys and are openly discussing the same in this forum

Mr. RVR has committed to discuss the same with participants in the Thiruvananthapuram event and get their views also.

I am sure they will not take any hasty step in arriving at a solution to the vexed problem of shortage of girls.

Lot of us are waiting for the outcome.

The Brahmana Sabha in Kerala, is a well organised and active entity basing from the local Samooham units. The Sabha is well aware of the ground situation.They have given thoughts to these quite early also.
In fact not just the male -female ratio, but in general the dwindling rate of birth also has been discussed.

I am sure that inter-brahmin marriage will definitely get accepatance. Again, the other sects of brahmins also should feel the same way.Then only success will come.For that real ground work,at inter organisation level is necessary. Just bombastic discussion in cyber forum is not going to help.As far as I know, there is a good understanding and co-operative action among the various sects of brahmins in Kerala on common matters regarding common or similar problems. Most of the sects have their own organisations with affiliation to All India apex Federation of Brahmins.Keral Brahmana sabha is doing its best in these regard.Hence it will be prudent to take them into confidence to have a smooth sailing in matters like inter brahmin alliance etc, because they will be able to tap the goodwill among the brahmins as already here is fundamental groundwork there.

To fall for some bombastic fireworks of words by Utopian boundary strikers , may be just counter productive,because these are not views or opinions unknown to the brahmins especially in Kerala. In fact when they are interested to prevent such happenings and do some conserving masonry, if somebody want to rub salt in the wounds, who will like that?

Trusting that the TVM event is going to be a better presentation ,I pray all not to spoil the show , just to earn a few shortlived applauses.

Greetings

 

[nachi naga]

rajesh,

Nachi, Your post does not make any sense. You say a lot of things like atheists falling in sai baba's feet and all that, but please can you substantiate them with some kind of arguments? And what are you suggesting by mentioning about spies? Do you mean that there are some spies in this forum. Its all very confusing!

Cover Story: The Chennai Citizen's Conclave... Divinity Diffuses all Differences - Mar 2007

Karunanidhi and Sai Baba - do symbols matter any more?

Rationalist Karunanidhi equates Sai Baba to God

Karunanidhi Sathya Sai Baba – Life, Love & Spirituality

so,from above info,we can infer atheist like karunanidhi have no problems in sharing the dais and hobnobbing with bhagavan.

as far spies,i have been informed that homeland security and Indian Intelligence agencies are cooperating with CIA and RAW,by having a monitor of various websites.Our website sounds very casteist organisation,and we are being monitored,is my understanding.don't be confused,pray to lord shiva,he will remove all avidya or ignorance.

satya sai baba,is one great integrator.all religioins as well as atheists,agnostics flock to him as well as nationalities from diff countries,seek advice and guidance.

all parents can read materials or have his darshan,to mould their kids.the kids too can be greatly benefited.tb to tb,inter brahmin ,inter caste,inter-faith,inter-nationalities marriages takes place under the auspice of bhagavan sathya sai baba communion.already its happening and indians cherish his valuable guidance and leadership.sai ram

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri sangom, Greetings!

.... Perhaps if Kanchi Acharya and/or Sringeri Acharya will give a green signal for ibms in the context of NS (I doubt whether they will consider icm even if we give all statistics and all that),

I have no doubt, they will never consider icm, it is a non-starter, if they did, the very foundation of Brahmnisim will be shaken. Shri uvsharma says he and people who share his view will not participate in NS if NBs are allowed in even as a possibility, and nobody bats an eyelid. In one way I do appreciate Astrologer Sharma for he is quite clear and emphatic, Charlton Heston's "from my cold, dead hands” kind of emphatic, does not mince his words, and he is the fulcrum for this NS functions, he is the man. That pretty much sums it up for me .

In this context, at least from my POV, all our discussions are academic, an opportunity for self reflection, with whom do we stand, on the side of progress or on the side of reaction; on the side of exclusiveness or on the side of openness? How do we see ourselves? Who is our community? What kind of unity we want?

Some say they are Brahmins first, then only anything else, and they also say the government puts these labels on them. This is having it both ways. Government puts caste labels for the purpose of reservation. You need to establish caste identity to be able to take advantage of the benefits. Brahmins can't avail of any such benefit, and yet they wish to cling onto caste label even in areas where the government does not interfere. Makes no sense. To say that Brahmins will have to fill out a caste box in some application is reason enough for Brahmin exclusiveness is disingenuous IMO. I feel this should not affect our own sense of right and wrong.

What is allowed, promoted and prevented at TVM NS is just a tempest in a teacup. icm can come about only from bottom up, in an organic fashion. The youngsters will lead the way. They will increasingly turn away from the castiest ideology.

I also don't believe All India Brahmin unity is possible. For whatever reason, TBs are not the unity type. But change will come, it will come from our youngsters, and that change will be for the better.

Here, I want to reiterate, SuryaKasyapa is wrong, I don't have any nefarious vested interest, I don't emit venom at Brahmins. I think transforming TBs is a very good objective and will benefit TBs the most.

...MLK had a religious side (Clergyman whose opinion was heard and obeyed) also, did he not? Secondly it was the mirror image of our situation - the deprived classes asking for equality whereas in our case it is the deprived classes being woed by the other side.

Yes, MLK was pastor alright, but hardly the type whose message was blindly obeyed. He did not have the backing of a church hierarchy like that of the Catholic Church to be able to command such obedience. Lot of people who shared his goals did oppose him on some of his tactics. The authority he had was a moral one.

When I cited George Wallace and MLK, I was only trying to illustrate the two types of leadership, one that stokes retrograde tendencies of people and the other that inspires people to transcend such tendencies.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

constantly comparing north american life-style to that of a south asian lifestyle,is like comparing oranges with apples.while both are frooty and their lies the commonality.as humanity progresses,these diff will get narrowed,and more inclusive and elbow-room to co-exist will prevail in future.this judgemental attitude and pontification,and a 'paarpaan paarkara buddhi' is something we are born with fortunately or unfortunately.by and large,the nb community is flourishing well by pointing fingers at us b's,and getting away with sheer murder.in what way,i shud be held responsible,what tb's of my ancestor's did.it is only a tactic to survive and have material comfort and distribution of freebies,effortlessly.so,as tb's we shud and we will unite,as there is no other choice.ibm will be the future for our community.maybe too optimistic with hope.that's all i have today,--- ie hope.

 

[RVR]

Please avoid both Kanchi and Sringeri Acharyas from these discussions.

Adhi Sankara Bagavadpada is of Kerala Namboothri brahmin origin.

Parmacharyal is from Kannadiga Hoysila Brahmin origin.

Present Acharyal of kanchi mutt is of Tamil Brahmin origin

Present Junior Acharyal is Telugu Brahmin Origin

Present Sringeri Acharyal is of Telugu origin

North Indian Sankara Mutt Acharyals are all of local Brahmin origin.

Hence all language speaking Brahmins have adorned Sankara Mutts throughout the country.

They don't have to give any special direction to us. We have to pick up lessons from the method of selection of Acharyals.

Personally I feel they have shown the way by selecting Acharyals from different language speaking brahmins. Those who are following sankara mutts have accepted them as their `Guru' without any hesitation.

There is nothing wrong in following the same principle in selecting life companion also.

All the best

 

[sangom]

In this context, at least from my POV, all our discussions are academic, an opportunity for self reflection, with whom do we stand, on the side of progress or on the side of reaction; on the side of exclusiveness or on the side of openness? How do we see ourselves? Who is our community? What kind of unity we want?

Dear Nara,

Though I have been a member of this forum for a month or so, I am more than convinced that it is an exclusivist's club. The main purpose seems to be the NS and preparations etc. for those events. All other discussions of a "status quo" type are passable but anything else, whether it is the type of opinions expressed by you or some academic discussions about the notion of Sudras, Abhiras, inter-relation between Iranians and Vedic people, etc., are also branded as "waste of time and energy". Thus I am convinced that this forum is for people akin to the characters in an old story "ஆடுகின்ற நார்க்கலிகள் ஆடிக்கொண்டே இருக்கின்றன" (I think the title is correct; it appeared long ago.) in which the characters try to maintain status quo to a ridiculous extent. Whenever they find some views against their convictions, they try to drive away such posters by resorting to innuendos; only people like Swaminatha Sarma say openly.

Some say they are Brahmins first, then only anything else, and they also say the government puts these labels on them. This is having it both ways. Government puts caste labels for the purpose of reservation. You need to establish caste identity to be able to take advantage of the benefits. Brahmins can't avail of any such benefit, and yet they wish to cling onto caste label even in areas where the government does not interfere. Makes no sense. To say that Brahmins will have to fill out a caste box in some application is reason enough for Brahmin exclusiveness is disingenuous IMO. I feel this should not affect our own sense of right and wrong.

The truth is that we boasted about our being brahmins and got away with a lot of benefits, based on that simple label, for a long time; now as the Karma theory goes, only that label has clung to our necks like the Old Man of the Sea, and all the benefits have evaporated. The others who are the beneficiaries now, don't want to have any connection with us because they have become the privileged group. It is this dilemma and the anxiety arising as a result thereof that governs our community in the present time. The paranoia makes us have a feeling of (supposed) grandeur and fear of persecution simultaneously.

What is allowed, promoted and prevented at TVM NS is just a tempest in a teacup. icm can come about only from bottom up, in an organic fashion. The youngsters will lead the way. They will increasingly turn away from the castiest ideology.

I have a different view. The NS is not for youngsters in general, it is for a special target group. Even talking about youngsters in general, it will depend primarily on the fortunes of the IT sector; if it gets another boom with astronomical wages, emigration to US/Europe, etc., many of our youngsters will become international citizens with "Hindu-Brahmin" written in their passports. If, however, the Govts. make another mess (as Paul Krugman foresees), conditions here will go from bad to worse and the target group for NS will increase, in my view.

I also don't believe All India Brahmin unity is possible. For whatever reason, TBs are not the unity type. But change will come, it will come from our youngsters, and that change will be for the better.

There is an All India Federation and perhaps it may be able to bring about a "pan brahmin" feeling. I, for, one may not probably be alive to see that glorious day.

Here, I want to reiterate, SuryaKasyapa is wrong, I don't have any nefarious vested interest, I don't emit venom at Brahmins. I think transforming TBs is a very good objective and will benefit TBs the most.

The problem seems to be that you have not made any attempt to hide your personal change of view. Now people like to view you with suspicion, as having an agenda to convert all brahmins into an ic community.

Yes, MLK was pastor alright, but hardly the type whose message was blindly obeyed. He did not have the backing of a church hierarchy like that of the Catholic Church to be able to command such obedience. Lot of people who shared his goals did oppose him on some of his tactics. The authority he had was a moral one.

Obvious that the NS people may not enjoy that sort of moral authority over the paricipants. That is why I suggested endorsement of ibm marriages by Kanchi/Sringeri.

When I cited George Wallace and MLK, I was only trying to illustrate the two types of leadership, one that stokes retrograde tendencies of people and the other that inspires people to transcend such tendencies.

Cheers!

Going for icm may not be progressive in the same sense as African Americans being afforded some sort of acceptance by the whites there. Despite MLK and all that, we know that the equality which he envisaged is still far away and the differences are hidden behind the propaganda and advertising glitz, just as the ordinary middle-class American's domestic life gets submerged.

 

[C RAVI]

Please avoid both Kanchi and Sringeri Acharyas from these discussions.

Adhi Sankara Bagavadpada is of Kerala Namboothri brahmin origin.

Parmacharyal is from Kannadiga Hoysila Brahmin origin.

Present Acharyal of kanchi mutt is of Tamil Brahmin origin

Present Junior Acharyal is Telugu Brahmin Origin

Present Sringeri Acharyal is of Telugu origin

North Indian Sankara Mutt Acharyals are all of local Brahmin origin.

Hence all language speaking Brahmins have adorned Sankara Mutts throughout the country.

They don't have to give any special direction to us. We have to pick up lessons from the method of selection of Acharyals.

Personally I feel they have shown the way by selecting Acharyals from different language speaking brahmins. Those who are following sankara mutts have accepted them as their `Guru' without any hesitation.

There is nothing wrong in following the same principle in selecting life companion also.

All the best

:yo:

 

[RVR]

Sri Sangom sir,

NS is not the object of our discussions here. NS is a voluntary service evolved out of tamilbrahmins.com and the organisers are not discussing day to day affairs in this forum.

Infact when the discussions were centered around NS, Praveen opened another website naveenaswayamvaram.com separately to make this forum to the normal discussions affecting our community.

Now most of the people looking for marriage alliances go to that website only.

Shortage of girls among TB community is a burning issue now and the same is discussed as a normal discussion now.

Since we had enough discussions on this problem, let us even close the discussions at this point of time. We shall come back to this forum if necessary after ascertaining the mind set of the participants of NS.

We are discussing with Kerala Brahmana Sabha(KBS) also separately about this problem. KBS is the apex body of TB community in Kerala, is very progressive and is doing excellent service to the community.

KBS, NS participants and our forum are separately involved in this and now we have ascertained the views of our forum. Let us co-ordinate with others and take a final call.

All the best

 

[sankara_sharmah]

I joined this forum because of the Naveena Swayamvaram. I wanted to share my views about marriages in the Tamil Brahmin community.

About other subjects, this forum has been discussing these issues for years. The same old subjects discussed and analyzed again and again. The older threads have a lot of material on almost all these subjects because the forum was new and lot of Tamil Brahmins flocked to it to share their views and discuss the problems facing the community.

அரைச்ச மாவையே அரைச்சு என்ன பிரயோசனம்?

Naveena Swayamvaram is the first concrete action taken by the forum in the service of the community. Of course other than financial help to individuals.