Brahmin Girls Marrying (Attracted towards) NB Boys

[sangom]

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sangom,

i do apologize if i was instrumental in giving the impression that ic is the way to go.

never never thought about it on those lines, if you read my notes carefully.

i have found out since then, people put 2 + 2 and make it 100 or whatever they like to believe.

the issue is tambram girls marrying outside the caste, and all i have written is ways for the parents to cope with it. to me it is more an education of the parents and how to make whatever selection the youths make (boys, girls) in a judicious manner.

everything being equal, i also said, that let the heart rule, and do not judge a boy by his caste alone. if everything else is acceptable, caste can be ignored.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

It is true that you were not saying "icm is the way to go". But a reading of the various posts by yourself and Prof. Nara gives an impression that there was much more emphasis on "let the heart rule" and much less on "if other things are not equal, let not the heart rule". Perhaps, there is no relevance here to 'other things being equal', IMO. And a very strictly minute analysis of the various posts may even substantiate your position; but I am referring only to the overall impression which one gets on normal reading.

Because the role of the heart, importance of romantic love, the despicable position of "loveless marriages" and a consistent refusal to give equal importance to the advantages of arranged marriages, have all gone into the net impression that your posts have created, IMO.

i have lost count of parents, opposing and backpeddling a few years later. why not have the wisdom upfront?

Yes, there are several cases. But that does not implicitly mean that all those cases were necessarily of the type which you qualify as "other things being equal"; still you say why not we have the wisdom upfront? What does that mean? Even if the selection of the daughter is bad, let the heart rule, does it not? If your position is really a balanced one should you not have considered this aspect also, instead of hurrying to give the advice of wisdom upfront? Yes, parents may try to dissuade a love marriage which to them does not look alright, oppose it, but if their daughter goes ahead against their advice, gets into some problem, or even pregnancy, they may patch up. In the process the recalcitrant daughter may, if she is intelligent, learn the true value of her parents. But the posts from you, Shri Nara, etc., gave a total scenario as if the role of the parents stops abruptly, the moment the daughter finds a boy - whether of the same caste or another -to be in love with. Already the law of this land makes it most easy for such girls to be adamant and achieve their objective and these posts from some of our own community elders add fuel to the raging fire, at least for those girls who read the posts. Perhaps this aspect did not strike you both. It is my considered view that we should take into account all the aspects relevant to an issue.

again, we have an issue with unmarried boys. they are soon going to be grandpa ages. i feel sorry for them for being tied by the caste knot, that they cannot tie the thali knot elsewhere.

Strictly speaking, this thread deals with one solution, however improbable it may be, to the problem of tambram boys in search of brides. Hence, in encouraging girls to go for icm or asking parents to allow the girls to have their hearts rule over their heads, we are doing a disservice to these tambram boys, I feel.

if you go through my postings, you will find that i care for the community just as much as the average person does here. i am just thinking out of the box for solutions to not unsolvable problems. it is just that one has to open one's minds and keep the end goal in mind - whether it is marrriage (achievable) or marriage within tambram (seems unachievable).

Whether any marriage is OK or whether only within the caste is OK, is a matter to be decided by each tambram boy, whose problem we seem to consider here. There is no great problem as regards the marriage of tambram girls; if at all there is one, it is that they are increasingly selecting NB boys, which is the subject matter of this thread. But you seem to be talking about more tambram boys going in for icm. That is secondary to this thread and it is not good to mix up the two. Perhaps that was the root cause of all the confusion.

again, i understand this is not a topic many would like to discuss. but shoving it under the carpet, does not solve any issues. atleast we discussed, and if not you or i, maybe someone will find it useful if confronted with similar issue. or atleast have a good read.

thank you.

It is good that we discussed at great length (like "Hanuman's tail" as you put it). But I would like to conclude saying that parents do have a say in the affairs of their daughters till they are married and it is not unreasonable if any parent finds that the love of their daughter is not conducive to her future happiness, it is the duty of the daughter to take that opinion with utmost importance, try to convince her parents as to how it will be beneficial for her and then only take the next step, whatever it might be.

 

[sangom]

Happy Hindu http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...min-girls-marrying-attracted-towards-nb-boys-107.html#post58795

I think there is some confusion in the way each of us understands what Fisher means by the term "romantic love". I think she is using the term 'romantic love' in lieu of the term 'mad passionate love' (aka lust-attraction).

In my view, Fisher is still talking about lust-mating factors which finally result in love-attachment. It is apparent that passion does not last too long and it gives way to bonding of the long-term attachment kind. However, no one knows why the brain selects that particular mate even for lust-mating (karma?). And love-attachment is obviously different from lust-mating.

In this point, i think, she means it is not adaptive to live a life of mad passionate sexual life (lust) for 20 years as we wud die of sexual exhaustion. Meaning at some point or the other, the human brain ends up seeking bonding or love or attachment.

This also means that after a period of time, sexual life tends to reduce in a couple's life; and the deep sense of attachment overtakes passion.

Hence to re-create the passion, or to keep the physical passion going, Fisher says, a couple needs to do novel things together.

If your deduction is taken, Dr. Fisher's statement would read, "'mad passionate love' (aka lust-attraction) is a stronger craving than sex".

Since lust ordinarily means 'strong sexual desire', i.e., desire for sexual enjoyment (as I understand it), will it not become a somewhat curious statement? Namely, the desire for sexual enjoyment is a stronger craving than having craving for sexual enjoyment; something like hunger is a stronger craving than craving for food? It seems difficult for me to understand the nuances, if any.

Happy Hindu

Here perhaps she means, that the subjects of her study displayed sexual satiation after about 17 months of passionate sexual life (meaning her subjects felt satisfied with the sexual side of their life and moved on to the attachment part).

I don't think she makes any reference to the attachment part. AFAIK from my own life sexual attraction as well as attachment are there side-by-side from the day you take a liking for a partner and get married; of course sexual enjoyment started only after marriage in the society in which I grew up. It is not clear why the attachment should start only after the long period of passionate sexual life. And, if the people in her study did in fact move over to the attachment part, as you say, why should anyone give the gratuitous advice to re-create the passionate sexual life once again? Does it not reveal that the western mindset is geared to look at passionate sex as a sine qua non for a happy married life, and relegate attachment to the secondary position? If so, how is it claimed that romantic love, which you define as lust-attraction and passionate sexual life, ensures a strong life-time bonding when the couple are advised to ensure that passion is not lost? In short, does not all these round-about theorization indicate that romantic love and sexual attraction are one and the same?

Happy Hindu
So far, i do not think there has been research linking absence of romantic love with genetic factors for such a condition !!

As you know we are not told as to what Dr. Fisher means by the term "society", but I think it cannot be countries in the usual sense. There are more than 150 communities, social groups, ethnic groups, all taken into account, and when she says that evidence of romantic love has so far been found in only 150 out of these, it is natural to conclude that there are at least a few in which such evidence is absent. It is because of all such ambiguities that I conclude this is a PR effort for some half-baked research results which is not uncommon in today's scientific world.

Happy Hindu
And i think the comparison between things like gambling and love is like comparing apples and oranges. Apart from the commonality that both are fruits and share some common chemicals, they remain two different products. Apart from commonalities like high dopamine levels in Gambling and Love, they are obviously two different conditions.

Pathological gamblers tend to have high testerone levels, but high testerone levels tend to make men abusive in a marriage. A pathological gambler is not satisfied even if he wins, he wants more and he has high risk taking abilities. And that is a psychiatric disorder just like compulsive sexual behavior where a person is sex-obsessed, is not satisfied and takes risks. Infact, one paper shows that testerone levels may decrease with romance-involvement Romantic involvement often reduces men's testoster... [J Pers Soc Psychol. 2006] - PubMed result Which probably means falling in love may help wean a man away from gambling addiction.

You have said that the common feature between love (I take it that you refer to romantic love here) and gambling is a high dopamine level. Whereas you have described the other necessary characteristics of a gambler (again I presume this applies to females as much as to males, am I right?), you are silent about the testosterone level in romantic lovers.

Happy Hindu
I do agree that there are not enuf studies on various factors. Which is why "love" remains a mystery. But studies mention that oxytocin is released or its levels rise during climax. And since it is the same oxytocin which causes bonding in mother-child, it is "expected" that oxytocin would play a role in bonding in human sexual behavior. And you have already mentioned the study where there was positive corelation between oxytocin plasma levels and (reduction in) anxiety levels in adult romantic attachments.

Using the word "love" creates confusion. I hold that the love is of different colours; mother to child, child to mother, husband to wife, wife to husband, a kind human being to others, and so on. What we are specifically dealing with here is "romantic love". The resulting possessiveness/aggresssiveness towards* other males (vasopressin) is also to be taken into account.

Will the nature and composition of vasopressin change according to the gene?

*Vasopressin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Happy Hindu
The man (Manoj) was in love with a collegue (Anuradha) who according to some newspaper reports was a divorcee. It may be possible that Anuradha was also forced into an arranged marriage....
...Since Manoj and Anuradha were in love for 2 years, it is highly likely that their relationship had reached the 'attachment' stage. At this stage it wud be nearly impossible for Manoj to live with Lakshmi.

There is no reference to the woman being a divorcee; she has applied for divorce. It is also not correct to presume that she was forced into the marriage. Such presumptions only tend to indicate a preconceived pattern under which behind every such abnormal behaviour there is a "forced" marriage. Can it not be that hers was not a forced marriage, she found it not OK later on and then, even before getting a divorce, started loving this man and also reached the attachment stage if we go by what you say?

 

[hoover]

this is primarily in indian context,
1. Here are lot advices that parents should learn to live with icm.
this is in another words 'just accept icm'.Why only girls side should win over parents always. why shouldnt parents try to stop such things certainly, that some of them may succeed in their effort. effort must be done to stop icm and excommunication is a way of deterance. once a girl understands that icm is not going to be accepted in the family and she will loose all support from parents if she remain stubborn then certinly a lot of them will think twice and a considerable number of them are going to leave that idea. She must be forced to realise the fact that she is breaking herat of their own blood realitives who were with her for twenty five or more years for physical attraction force towards a person with whom she had spent just hours. so she have to decide priorities wisely. second even if she is admant then just leave her on her own journy. but do not implore her or her prspet husband or in laws any way. It will be weakness of parents.and do not promote such marriages by participating and arrengint them for just sake of happiness of the girl who broke hearts of so many caring persons. let she also understand the meaning of relations. If some one is extremist then it must be met first with dialague and negotiations and if not successful then just met with multiplied fury.
2. icm is a personal issue. In Indian context it is not. because here a policy of caste based discrimination and Brahmin hatred is going on.
acceptance, arranging and participation in icm is promotion/encouragement for girls in vicinity and cotact to do the same. As they will take this easily, and will fear nothing doing that. It is just another victory of NBs over brahmin. So social effects of individual action are also imprtant and cannot be neglected.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Sangom said -

Shri Raghy,

Your proposition that "It may not be possible for virgins to have 'sexual urge'..." is a real brain-teaser to me ! Will a mere ceremony in a church or temple or marriage hall affect the physiological processes so radically? Or, is it your opinion that sexual urge is also a cultivated trait? If what you say is right how do we explain the "unwed" mothers where rape is not the cause.

Sri.Sangom Sir, Greetings. (Pardon me for not replying earlier; this happens to be my earliest). We may have some misunderstanding. I think, I have not explained my point of view properly. Physiological reactions between the persons in love is radical. A boy/girl may know, for example, twenty girls/boys very well; but only one boy/girl brings out that particular physiological reaction to each other. I don't see the significance of ceremony or a marriage hall in this. What is more; a boy/girl could be deeply in love with each other, but may not have shared the physical intimacy even few days/weeks after their marriage. I do not know if it is a cultivated trait. I can't answer that.

In the case of 'unwed' mothers in India, those mothers did not wait to get married before getting into the physical intimacy. To my understanding, this 'love thinghy' is quite a force; not many can handle such force and keep everything under control. With the persons who can't really control the force or amoung the persons who undergo only physical attraction and no further, physical intimacy is sought in a hurry, possibly resulting in the girl's pregnancy. Most parents would not take such a risk. It is correct. Any responsible parents should think about the worst possible scenario and act accordingly. (By the way, such scenario can happen in any scenario. We need not have a NB boy quantity for that to happen). That is why, the parents should give the confidence to the children. Most girls when in love, would love to talk about it. Girls/boys can be warned if something smells fishy in the set up. (It is quite possible, Sri. Kunjuppu maintains such closeness with his children, for his children to share all their feelings with him).

I do not know if I have addressed Sri.Sangom's quries.

....

there was a TV interview of our Central Minister Shri Vayalar Ravi and his (wife) Late Smt. Mercy Ravi, some years back. Theirs was a love marriage, Hindu-Christian. One advice they both gave the youngsters is that despite all that you talk about compatibility, having been in love for several years and had no differences, etc., etc., the morning after marriage you will find an entirely new person as your spouse, not what he or she was the day before. They said it is a difficulty for lovers only, and not for those with arranged marriages, to adjust to this sudden and profound changes and advised young lovers to prepare themselves mentally for this eventuality also, while they are in love.

It is so true. But, my experience is different though. I found an entirely different person after the physical intimacy only. After marriage, she went home after dinner. (Mr. Valayar Ravi must have meant about the marriages consummated at the night of the marriage. It may not be the case for everyone though).

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Sri.Sangom said -

Sri.Sangom Sir, Greetings. (Pardon me for not replying earlier; this happens to be my earliest). We may have some misunderstanding. I think, I have not explained my point of view properly. Physiological reactions between the persons in love is radical. A boy/girl may know, for example, twenty girls/boys very well; but only one boy/girl brings out that particular physiological reaction to each other. I don't see the significance of ceremony or a marriage hall in this. What is more; a boy/girl could be deeply in love with each other, but may not have shared the physical intimacy even few days/weeks after their marriage. I do not know if it is a cultivated trait. I can't answer that.

Dear Shri Raghy,

There seems to be some communication gap. By the word "urge" is commonly meant 'an instinctive impulse'. And you will agree that the humankind has been surviving right from the cavemen stage till now, more on the strength of the instinctive impulse for sex, than on any special skill learned for the purpose. (Though such skill has become available for learning in the recent times, I don't think the basic genetic influence has vanished nor can it be replaced.) In such a scenario, how do we accept your proposition that ""It may not be possible for virgins to have 'sexual urge'..." ? That is why I referred to the ceremony part. To put my doubt very bluntly, if a virgin (male or female) does not have sexual urge, meaning the basic instinctive impulse for sex, how can he or she acquire it as soon as the marriage is over? How will they consummate their marriage without this basic instinct?

It is so true. But, my experience is different though. I found an entirely different person after the physical intimacy only. After marriage, she went home after dinner. (Mr. Valayar Ravi must have meant about the marriages consummated at the night of the marriage. It may not be the case for everyone though).

Cheers!

I do not know whether Shri Vayalar Ravi and his wife talked about the changes as a result of consummation of marriage. But from the context and language, I feel what they probably referred to was that the there is a distinct change in the attitude and behaviour of the wife towards her husband and of the husband towards the wife once the marriage formalizes their relationship and they are no longer two unrelated individuals in love; these would not be the same as before when the two people were lovers only. So, if either party expects that the previous attitudes and behaviours of the partner would continue even after the marriage, he or she may be in for a surprise. This behavioural change has to be expected if one is not to be offended due to it and as a result, the marriage comes to be looked upon as unsuccessful, not working, etc.

 

[happyhindu]

If your deduction is taken, Dr. Fisher's statement would read, "'mad passionate love' (aka lust-attraction) is a stronger craving than sex".

Since lust ordinarily means 'strong sexual desire', i.e., desire for sexual enjoyment (as I understand it), will it not become a somewhat curious statement? Namely, the desire for sexual enjoyment is a stronger craving than having craving for sexual enjoyment; something like hunger is a stronger craving than craving for food? It seems difficult for me to understand the nuances, if any.

Dear Sangom Sir,

Perhaps when we speak of Fisher's work, we may need to remember 2 things.

1) Fisher is using the same term ‘romantic love’ for all 3 categories a) Lust, b) Attraction, c) Attachment. Yet, she acknowledges that all 3 categories are different, and involve different brain systems. So, in some places she uses the term ‘romantic love’ for sex (lust) and in other places she uses the same term ‘romantic love’ for attachment (that is bonding where sex is not required).

Example:

• Romantic love, Dr Fisher explained in a lecture at the 2004 American Psychiatric Association’s annual meeting, is not an emotion. Rather, it’s "a motivation system, it’s a drive, it’s part of the reward system of the brain." It’s a need that compels the lover to seek a specific mating partner. [In this, she is talking about sex (lust) under the term ‘romantic love’].

• Romantic love, Dr Fisher believes, is a stronger craving than sex. People who don’t get sex don’t kill themselves, she said. [In this, she is talking about attachment under the term ‘romantic love’].

2) In this particular work Fisher was only correlating the MRI brain scans she took on her 40 participants with previously done research on the biochemistry / hormonal states of emotions. Her work did not involve studying the biochemistry part herself. Her full paper is here: http://www.helenfisher.com/downloads/articles/Article_final_JRS_06.pdf

I don't think she makes any reference to the attachment part.

What she says is here:
Romantic love, Dr Fisher believes, is a stronger craving than sex. People who don’t get sex don’t kill themselves, she said. On the other hand, it is not adaptive to be romantically in love for 20 years. "First of all," she confided, "we would all die of sexual exhaustion." Not surprisingly, the subjects in her study who had been in love the longest (17 months) displayed markers in the brain indicating the beginnings of "the satiation response."

She is talking about the satiation response as a continuation, from her statements on romantic love being a stronger craving than sex. So, it is rather apparent that the ‘romantic love’ she refers to here is “attachment” and not "lust-sex".

AFAIK from my own life sexual attraction as well as attachment are there side-by-side from the day you take a liking for a partner and get married; of course sexual enjoyment started only after marriage in the society in which I grew up.

Sir, it may be different for different people. It is not necessary that everyone starts off with sexual attraction and attachment side by side. And by “liking” a partner what do we mean? For how long do we know the partner to “like” him / her (persuming it is the typical penn parkal or ladki dekhna scenario?). Would you be willing to spend the rest of your life without everyone you “like”?

It is not clear why the attachment should start only after the long period of passionate sexual life. And, if the people in her study did in fact move over to the attachment part, as you say, why should anyone give the gratuitous advice to re-create the passionate sexual life once again? Does it not reveal that the western mindset is geared to look at passionate sex as a sine qua non for a happy married life, and relegate attachment to the secondary position? If so, how is it claimed that romantic love, which you define as lust-attraction and passionate sexual life, ensures a strong life-time bonding when the couple are advised to ensure that passion is not lost? In short, does not all these round-about theorization indicate that romantic love and sexual attraction are one and the same?

Fisher is a biological anthropologist. This particular paper of hers is still talking about how lust leads to attachment. Which means, the brain cannot survive on lust (sex) only. It wants the emotional security of bonding / attachment (long-term companionship).

And if people move on to the attachment (bonding minus sex) part, it may become natural for couples to take each other for granted. It is possible that one may start depriving the spouse of sexual pleasure, which the spouse may still want.

I think what Fisher is basically conveying in the context of her study is this -- Stopping passion (lust-sex) after love (bonding-attachment) would be like watering a plant until it takes firm roots and grows into a tree, and then stop watering the tree (just bcoz it has bcome a tree).

It would be presumptuous to assume that the ‘western mindset’ is geared for sex as an essential ingredient of a happy married life. Methinks, all societies, asian included, lay some amount of emphasis atleast on taking care of the sexual side in a married couple’s life (why wud we have kamasutra otherwise).

As you know we are not told as to what Dr. Fisher means by the term "society", but I think it cannot be countries in the usual sense. There are more than 150 communities, social groups, ethnic groups, all taken into account, and when she says that evidence of romantic love has so far been found in only 150 out of these, it is natural to conclude that there are at least a few in which such evidence is absent. It is because of all such ambiguities that I conclude this is a PR effort for some half-baked research results which is not uncommon in today's scientific world.

I looked at this paper to see what Fisher means by "societies": http://www.helenfisher.com/downloads/articles/Article_final_JRS_06.pdf This paper mentions a survey of 166 "societies" done by Jankowiak and Fischer (1992) which found evidence of romantic love in 147 of them. In the remaining 19 cultures, ethnographic oversight and lack of proper questioning by anthropologists was taken to be the reason.

In the same paper she goes on to mention "societies" in other "culture" forms (like data from the Demographic Yearbooks of the United Nations on 97 “societies”). She also mentions cross-cultural and historical data of people in other "societies” while mentioning a woman of the !Kung Bushman group, the Taita of Kenya, the Korean concept of Sarang and Chong, and so on. Therefore, the context of Fisher's "societies" seem to be "ethic groups" across the world.

You have said that the common feature between love (I take it that you refer to romantic love here) and gambling is a high dopamine level. Whereas you have described the other necessary characteristics of a gambler (again I presume this applies to females as much as to males, am I right?), you are silent about the testosterone level in romantic lovers.

I do not know if the characterisitics of gambling applies to females as much as males. I would need to look for papers on gambling studies which specifically mention how many participants in a given study were male or female.

Reg testesterone levels, I have not browsed for specific papers as yet, but from a cursory search I came across this paper Hormonal changes when falling in love. [Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2004] - PubMed result and this paper Hormones converge for couples in love - 05 May 2004 - New Scientist -- which says that testosterone levels were lower in men in love and higher for women in love. So, if gambling and high risk taking is caused by high testosterone, it is apparent that love may help lower testesterone, and may help wean a man away from gambling. We do not know the reason why testosterone increases in females when in love as yet, but it may be linked to the libido as well as fertility (since testosterone falls as women get older and during menopause).

Using the word "love" creates confusion. I hold that the love is of different colours; mother to child, child

to mother, husband to wife, wife to husband, a kind human being to others, and so on. What we are specifically dealing with here is "romantic love".
The resulting possessiveness/aggresssiveness towards* other males (vasopressin) is also to be taken into account.

Will the nature and composition of vasopressin change according to the gene?

*Vasopressin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately sir, love depends on far too many neuroendocrine factors; most of which are not understood properly yet. So far we only know that certain hormones like oxytocin play a role in all forms of bonding-love (mother-child, husband-wife). And we also understand that love is different from lust / sex.

The wiki article Vasopressin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia refers to Larry Young’s paper when it talks about initiation, pair-bonding and inducing the male to become aggressive towards an other male. I had a quick look at Larry Young’s paper. It is talking about mice and takes into context the debated hypotheses of behavioral neuroendocrinology surrounding the rapid surge in testosterone following a male–male encounter or following exposure to female stimuli.

However, it is to be noted that even without a female around, males still experience high testeterone levels when competing with each other. John Wingfield and collegues formulated the effect into what is called the “challenge hypothesis” which postulates that male–male challenges leads to a rapid surge in circulating testosterone and the magnitude of this surge depends on the social system of the species considered. Which perhaps means that testosterone may be high in ambitious males when in competition with other men (and love may help lower that testesterone levels).

Am sorry but I am not able to understand the question whether nature and composition of vasopressin changes according to the gene. Vasopressin is just a chemical. Wiki has a space-filled model of its chemical structure: File:Arginine vasopressin3d.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This composition and structure need not change unless there are some interacting factors.

There is no reference to the woman being a divorcee; she has applied for divorce. It is also not correct to presume that she was forced into the marriage. Such presumptions only tend to indicate a preconceived pattern under which behind every such abnormal behaviour there is a "forced" marriage. Can it not be that hers was not a forced marriage, she found it not OK later on and then, even before getting a divorce
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
, started loving this man and also reached the attachment stage if we go by what you say?

Some reports do call Anuradha a divorcee like this one: Murderer nailed by a strand of evidence, News - City - Bangalore Mirror,Bangalore Mirror and this one Dell employee found guilty of wife’s murder – Techie’s hair provided vital info to reach the murderer
I agree it is not right to presume, which is why I said “It may be possible that Anuradha was also forced into an arranged marriage”.

--------------------------------------
Sir,
I notice that perhaps your concern (from your post to Shri Kunjuppu Ji above) may be of same-caste marriage. It is true that in arranged marriages the mental compatibility factor of the couple is not taken into account (kindly excuse me for saying this). The typical horosocope matching for mental compatibility is useless. Given a choice, many elderly couple who entered arranged marriages with well-matching horoscopes will divorce.

Arranged marriages of the "resume" kind, which comes with a biodata, photo and horocope attached is silly really. Such people might as well search for a job instead of a spouse. And girls make the mistake of seeking 'well-settled" boys, which means they are buying some sort of an LIC insurance policy or social-security in the name of marriage (for their own social betterment). They might do better to openly communicate and look for ways how well they are going to get along with the prospective husband (for what he is as a human personally).

And love marriages also fail because "love" in the indian context means impressing the girl / boy. The couple knows only the 'good side' of their love-interest. They do not know the 'natural-side' of the guy / girl. It is un-natural to marry expecting that the 'lover' will always be the 'good side'.

So both love marriages and arranged marriages have their pitfalls. And therefore we see divorces or mental-seperation cases in both of them.

If caste is the issue, and not love, then why not "arrange love-marriages" ? It would also be the better way to reduce divorces. Afterall, the business of marriage is not about just getting 2 people tied up with a mangalsutra.

To "arrange love marriage" the best way (to me) is to put boys and girls of the same caste into a big hall and get them to interact with each other. Parents please stay aside and do not influence their choice in any manner. Because a parent really has no role in the "actual" or biological mate-selection process.

Perhaps your son / daughter may even fall in "love" and will decide to marry in a few days. It is also possible that they want to "spend more time" with a specific someone. Please do not discourage them from meeting and getting to know the other person. Ofcourse parents can put barriers, ex: a couple is not allowed to meet at a secluded place alone. Here we are encouraging attachment which comes from getting to know each other, and not lust. These gathering can be on a weekly basis, to let the youngsters get to know each other better over a period of time. You can call it a "youth-meet" with games and some refreshments. And you can also bring in teenagers (kids from about 15 onwards ? ).

Please note that your child may break-up with the love-interest, and move on to someone else. It is also possible that your child may go on in a circle undecided. All this is a natural process of growing up. As a parent please be prepared to accept whatever decision your son / daughter makes. And i should think, that this process will certainly increase same-caste marriages.

Finally, as Larry Young says, Love emerges from a "cocktail of ancient neuropeptides and neurotransmitters". It is crucial to the propagation of the species. And it is equally crucial to raising a peaceful household.

I really hope some people will decide to "arrange love marriages"

Regards.

 

[sangom]

Originally posted by Smt. HappyHindu,

Perhaps when we speak of Fisher's work, we may need to remember 2 things.

1) Fisher is using the same term ‘romantic love’ for all 3 categories a) Lust, b) Attraction, c) Attachment. Yet, she acknowledges that all 3 categories are different, and involve different brain systems. So, in some places she uses the term ‘romantic love’ for sex (lust) and in other places she uses the same term ‘romantic love’ for attachment (that is bonding where sex is not required).

Example:

* Romantic love, Dr Fisher explained in a lecture at the 2004 American Psychiatric Association’s annual meeting, is not an emotion. Rather, it’s "a motivation system, it’s a drive, it’s part of the reward system of the brain." It’s a need that compels the lover to seek a specific mating partner. [In this, she is talking about sex (lust) under the term ‘romantic love’].


* Romantic love, Dr Fisher believes, is a stronger craving than sex. People who don’t get sex don’t kill themselves, she said.

[In this, she is talking about attachment under the term ‘romantic love’].

2) In this particular work Fisher was only correlating the MRI brain scans she took on her 40 participants with previously done research on the biochemistry / hormonal states of emotions. Her work did not involve studying the biochemistry part herself. Her full paper is here: http://www.helenfisher.com/downloads/articles/Article_final_JRS_06.pdf

I am reminded of the extreme ambiguities in correctly interpreting many of our hindu scriptures! I could not foresee that such imprecise use of terms can plague modern science also. Anyway, I think there is no point in further discussing about this topic. Thank you for all the valuable info.

And if people move on to the attachment part, it is but natural for couples to take each other for granted.

Neglecting the sexual side of their lives may not be a good idea in all cases. It is possible that one may be depriving the spouse of sexual pleasure, which the spouse may still want.

I think what Fisher is basically conveying this in the context of her study -- Stopping passion (lust-sex) after love (bonding-attachment) would be like watering a plant until it takes firm roots and grows into a tree, and then stop watering the tree (just bcoz it has bcome a tree).

It would be presumptuous to assume that the ‘western mindset’ is geared for sex as an essential ingredient of a happy married life. Methinks, all societies, asian included, lay some amount of emphasis atleast on taking care of the sexual side in a married couple’s life (why wud we have kamasutra otherwise).

I am not an authority to say anything on this subject. But my impression is that the sexual behaviour, sexual mores, etc., cannot be brought within the narrow framework of the type of research and generalization that we are talking about now. It is far too personal and complex a phenomenon for Kamasutra or any other treatise or research to even approximately map out.

I looked at this paper to see what Fisher means by societies:

http://www.helenfisher.com/downloads/articles/Article_final_JRS_06.pdf it seems that in the 2004 lecture-talk, she was actually refers to the excerpts of her paper. Her paper mentions a survey of 166 societies done by Jankowiak and Fischer (1992) which found evidence of romantic love in 147 of them. In the remaining 19 cultures, ethnographic oversight and lack of proper questioning by anthropologists was taken to be the reason.

In the same paper she goes on to mention "societies" in other forms (like data from the Demographic Yearbooks of the United Nations on 97 “societies”). And considering the fact that she mentions “cross-cultural and historical data indicate that people in other societies” while mentioning a woman of the !Kung Bushman group, the Taita of Kenya, the Korean concept of Sarang and Chong, and so on, it does seem to me that she is refering to ethic groups across the world.

It will therefore appear that Dr. Fisher talks of ethnic groups only. I have some disbelief when someone puts the blame on vague factors like "ethnographic oversight, lack of proper questioning by anthropologists", etc. Here again which of the meanings of the term "romantic love" she has taken, is not clear. So, all this talk leads ultimately to nothing concrete, IMO.

Am sorry but I am not able to understand the question whether nature and composition of vasopressin changes according to the gene.

What I wanted to know was, since the vasopressin is the same, what is the relevance of the difference in the genes AVPR? Since you have clarified that the role of the genes is not yet known, there is no further doubt on this.

I agree it is not right to presume, which is why I said “_It may be possible _that Anuradha was also forced into an arranged marriage”.

Is it not tantamount to presumption when you say "it may be possible.." and then try to fit the matter into the pre-conceived mold of forced marriage > divorce > love with some one of (one's) liking?

I notice that perhaps your concern (from your post to Shri Kunjuppu Ji above) may be of same-caste marriage. It is true that in arranged marriages the mental compatibility factor of the couple is not taken into account (kindly excuse me for saying this). The typical horosocope matching for mental compatibility is useless. Given a choice, many elderly couple who entered arranged marriages with well-matching horoscopes will divorce.

As you will see from my previous (old) posts and also a recent one to Shri Hoover, I am personally not against icm and am also not particularly insisting on same caste marriage only. But different people have their own circumstances, compulsions, etc. and those are very complex to be summarized into writing. Having understood that, I said we cannot have a campaign for "icm based on love" as the best solution, or launch posts which will give the impression that the elders here are all in favour of love marriage even if it is ic and the "heart should rule" etc., without adequately emphasizing at the same time, the role and the right of parents in counselling, objecting, etc., if they find that their daughter's choice is not satisfactory. In making a blanket endorsement of pro-love/pro-icm marriages through very many posts here, the overall impression that one (staying in India and knowing the problems, compulsions and other attendant circumstances of the tambram community here) gets is that the parents here, as a whole, are not sufficiently mature to know how to bring up their children, they are just as conservative and obstinate as they were 40 or 50 years ago, they do not allow their daughters to love, or even if they do, they consistently oppose icms, they break their relationship in anger, foolishly, only to patch up later on because of the love for the daughter, etc., etc. In short, the even the modicum of wisdom, maturity, knowledge of the ways of the world etc., which the tambrams here might have, was completely overlooked as if only our diaspora members were the unique repositories of such wisdom. My attempt has been only to bring this distortion to the notice of the forum members.

If one will carefully observe, the starter of this thread had stated in his post as under:

"These days I am seeing a huge change in the trend in which the Brahmin girls used to think and act. They are much interested towards NB boys and they want to marry them irrespective of any problems that occur from their parents side.
...
I hope many people would have encountered the same and I just want the thread to have some useful discussion in regards of the following matter

1.How come now a days Brahmin Girls are not interested towards our guys

2.How come these girls are getting courage. On seeing these kind of girls, I am astonished on how our amma, patti, chithi and athai had lead a peaceful life without having much of conflicts and even though they have conflicts how they have digested those. That’s the power of Brahmin women which is getting lost these days."

Instead of concentrating our discussions on the above two aspects, the whole thread of 108 pages and nearly 1100 posts has been centred around allowing the children the freedom to choose their life partner on the basis of romantic love, irrespective of caste and even religion perhaps. Point # 2 above has been cursorily dealt with in a broad statement that all those women of earlier days suffered greatly in their unhappy and possibly loveless married life and that since they had no other go, they put up with the hell that was mostly married life for them. It is unfortunate that we have not had the benefit of the views of more women members except for a few including yourself.

Perhaps it is this overzealous attitude to prescribe the western practices as the remedy for the eastern problem which has been the mistake. I asked a relevant query whether these same parents living abroad would whole-heartedly welcome if their children fell in love with an African-American doing one of those "inglorious" jobs even by the US standards. Shri Kunjuppu answered that if you bring up your children properly and counsel them adequately they will not make such wrong choices. You have to superimpose this with the dictum that "romantic love is blind" and hence caste considerations should not stand in the way (of tambram parents in India). It looks to me like double standards; they who are abroad are justified in having a circle of their own within which only love is desirable, but those who are here in India should not have the freedom to decide what their circle should be.

In conclusion I am reminded of a Malayalam proverb, "kuLippiccu kuLippiccu kunjine kanTilla" meaning because of over-scrubbing the infant itself got dissolved in water! An overdose of promoting "let the heart rule"!!

As for your remedy of same caste marriages after choosing partners, it is good and can be tried. But, let me inform you that at least in Kerala, if a girl wants to marry a particular boy, whether brahmin, non-brahmin, Christian - I have not come across Muslim cases so far - it cannot be stopped and she has her way. The rest of the girls are getting married only after they are satisfied with the boy. In these cases also usually there is a gap of at least six months after the 'niscayatamboolam' and marriage. During this period the two people get enough opportunity to talk, and also to meet if both are in India. There are a few cases in which the relationship breaks up also, even for silly reasons like the boy not being familiar with Tamil Cinema music (!), girl not satisfied with the boy's attitudes, etc. I have yet to hear a case of rejection of the girl by the boy. In one case the boy was in US. But from his e-mails the girl somehow felt that he would not be suitable for her and so, subsequent to the betrothal, it was cancelled after taking necessary legal documents on either side. In such a scenario there seems to be no need to further educate the tambram girls here about their rights, whether they may love, etc. The state of affairs is thus very unsatisfactory and our discussions in this thread will, IMO, only encourage girls thinking that love marriage, that too outside the caste is the best thing in the world.

I presume that the conditions in TN are no better.

 

[kunjuppu]

Thanks raghy.

I am not so sure whether my children confide everything with us, try as much as my wife and I do. it is a continuous effort from the day of birth, and increasingly challenging in their teen years.

We both are aware of the need of the confidence of the children, but they hold all the trumps. Also, we are both, after all product of strict tambram households of 50 thrus 70s. some of those nasty values still clings to us, inspite of conscious effort to cleanse it or to avoid passing it on to the next generation.

When the kids reach their wrong side of twenties, there is an effort, I feel from them to turn back to a full circle, the relationship shifting to friend & later reverse parent child.

Still, at all stages, we have found that we seldom know when love gestates. All we can suspect is that something is happening – maybe a wee bit more singing, skipping or restlessness. When the ultimate is presented to us, it is a ‘fait accompli’. We have to take it or leave it.

This is the trickiest and (for the parents) the most stressful situation. Here we have an individual, who probably knows more about us, we know nothing about the other, prepared to meet us and above all could not care less whether we approved or not but outwardly on the best of behaviour (atleast for the first while).

In instances not to our liking, all we can hope, is that this too will pass. Fortunately I live in a culture, where calling off a relationship is as much important as yesterday’s printed news. So we keep hoping that the next choice would be something that we like.

The worst heartbreak for us, is that we like the paramour. Get close to the family. And then the bomb drops, that the young ones have called it off. it is on such occasions that I am reminded of that sad phrase, ‘what it could have been’.

Thank you.

 

[happyhindu]

Is it not tantamount to presumption when you say "it may be possible.." and then try to fit the matter into the pre-conceived mold of forced marriage > divorce > love with some one of (one's) liking?

Sir, as far i can see yes i mentioned that it "may be possible" that anuradha was also forced into an arranged marriage. However, i do not seem to have tried to fit the matter into a pre-conceived mold of forced marriage > divorce > love with some one of (one's) liking. Kindly let me know what was it about my writing that led you to this presumption.

As you will see from my previous (old) posts and also a recent one to Shri Hoover, I am personally not against icm and am also not particularly insisting on same caste marriage only. But different people have their own circumstances, compulsions, etc. and those are very complex to be summarized into writing. Having understood that, I said we cannot have a campaign for "icm based on love" as the best solution, or launch posts which will give the impression that the elders here are all in favour of love marriage even if it is ic and the "heart should rule" etc., without adequately emphasizing at the same time, the role and the right of parents in counselling, objecting, etc., if they find that their daughter's choice is not satisfactory. In making a blanket endorsement of pro-love/pro-icm marriages through very many posts here, the overall impression that one (staying in India and knowing the problems, compulsions and other attendant circumstances of the tambram community here) gets is that the parents here, as a whole, are not sufficiently mature to know how to bring up their children, they are just as conservative and obstinate as they were 40 or 50 years ago, they do not allow their daughters to love, or even if they do, they consistently oppose icms, they break their relationship in anger, foolishly, only to patch up later on because of the love for the daughter, etc., etc. In short, the even the modicum of wisdom, maturity, knowledge of the ways of the world etc., which the tambrams here might have, was completely overlooked as if only our diaspora members were the unique repositories of such wisdom. My attempt has been only to bring this distortion to the notice of the forum members.

If one will carefully observe, the starter of this thread had stated in his post as under:

"These days I am seeing a huge change in the trend in which the Brahmin girls used to think and act. They are much interested towards NB boys and they want to marry them irrespective of any problems that occur from their parents side.
...
I hope many people would have encountered the same and I just want the thread to have some useful discussion in regards of the following matter

1.How come now a days Brahmin Girls are not interested towards our guys

2.How come these girls are getting courage. On seeing these kind of girls, I am astonished on how our amma, patti, chithi and athai had lead a peaceful life without having much of conflicts and even though they have conflicts how they have digested those. That’s the power of Brahmin women which is getting lost these days."

Instead of concentrating our discussions on the above two aspects, the whole thread of 108 pages and nearly 1100 posts has been centred around allowing the children the freedom to choose their life partner on the basis of romantic love, irrespective of caste and even religion perhaps. Point # 2 above has been cursorily dealt with in a broad statement that all those women of earlier days suffered greatly in their unhappy and possibly loveless married life and that since they had no other go, they put up with the hell that was mostly married life for them. It is unfortunate that we have not had the benefit of the views of more women members except for a few including yourself.

Perhaps it is this overzealous attitude to prescribe the western practices as the remedy for the eastern problem which has been the mistake. I asked a relevant query whether these same parents living abroad would whole-heartedly welcome if their children fell in love with an African-American doing one of those "inglorious" jobs even by the US standards. Shri Kunjuppu answered that if you bring up your children properly and counsel them adequately they will not make such wrong choices. You have to superimpose this with the dictum that "romantic love is blind" and hence caste considerations should not stand in the way (of tambram parents in India). It looks to me like double standards; they who are abroad are justified in having a circle of their own within which only love is desirable, but those who are here in India should not have the freedom to decide what their circle should be.

In conclusion I am reminded of a Malayalam proverb, "kuLippiccu kuLippiccu kunjine kanTilla" meaning because of over-scrubbing the infant itself got dissolved in water! An overdose of promoting "let the heart rule"!!

Sir, this is regarding the underlined lines. I think there are some mistaken assumptions here.

1) First of all, please be assured that there certainly is no "campaign" for ICMs. It just happens to be a matter of fact that Shri Kunjuppu, Sri Raghy and Sri Nara are in their own personal lives willing to accept ICMs. I do not think that merely mentioning their thots and views wud be tantamount to giving an impression as though "the elders here are all in favour of love marriage even if it is ic". Three people (sirs nara, raghy, kunjuppu) do not represent all elders.

2) Plus no one is trying to convey that "parents here, as a whole, are not sufficiently mature to know how to bring up their children".

3) I do not understand why you think the views of sirs nara, kunjuppu, raghy are some sort of a distortion that needs to be "brought to the notice of the forum members".

4) The thread initiator has long gone and is not posting here anymore. I do not understand why now suddenly one needs to concentrate on what the thread initiator said. It wud make sense to discuss what he said if he is participating here now. And this thread had already taken very many deviation and turns since he left.

Wud it be so wrong if some members mentioned that they allowed their children "the freedom to choose their life partner on the basis of romantic love, irrespective of caste and even religion perhaps". Perhaps not this forum members, but there are ppl willing to accept afro-americans in inglorious jobs (this type of talk wud certainly smack of racism to an afro-american reading this).

5) And sir, certainly nowhere has anyone displayed an overzealous attitude to prescribe "western practices" as the remedy for an "eastern problem".

As for your remedy of same caste marriages after choosing partners, it is good and can be tried. But, let me inform you that at least in Kerala, if a girl wants to marry a particular boy, whether brahmin, non-brahmin, Christian - I have not come across Muslim cases so far - it cannot be stopped and she has her way. The rest of the girls are getting married only after they are satisfied with the boy. In these cases also usually there is a gap of at least six months after the 'niscayatamboolam' and marriage. During this period the two people get enough opportunity to talk, and also to meet if both are in India. There are a few cases in which the relationship breaks up also, even for silly reasons like the boy not being familiar with Tamil Cinema music (!), girl not satisfied with the boy's attitudes, etc. I have yet to hear a case of rejection of the girl by the boy. In one case the boy was in US. But from his e-mails the girl somehow felt that he would not be suitable for her and so, subsequent to the betrothal, it was cancelled after taking necessary legal documents on either side. In such a scenario there seems to be no need to further educate the tambram girls here about their rights, whether they may love, etc. The state of affairs is thus very unsatisfactory and our discussions in this thread will, IMO, only encourage girls thinking that love marriage, that too outside the caste is the best thing in the world.

I presume that the conditions in TN are no better.

Sir, this is merely a forum where views are exchanged. No one is trying to educate tambram girls or encourage girls "that love marriage, that too outside the caste is the best thing in the world". For that matter, i hardly see posts by youngsters in this forum (perhaps they have busier lives to lead). Folks who read and post things here all appear to be middle-aged people like me and elderly people like yourself. And even if youngsters read stuff here, they wud not be so foolish to base the decision of their life on forum posts.

I request you to please see this: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-attracted-towards-nb-boys-103.html#post58569

And, I for one, will not think that our impressionable youngsters are so dumb as to look to what a few people discuss here, (mostly as an exhibition of our vanity and show-off of our knowledge) than go direct to the internet and other social networking sites.

 

[suresoo]

But I would like to conclude saying that parents do have a say in the affairs of their daughters till they are married and it is not unreasonable if any parent finds that the love of their daughter is not conducive to her future happiness, it is the duty of the daughter to take that opinion with utmost importance, try to convince her parents as to how it will be beneficial for her and then only take the next step, whatever it might be.

AMEN to that!!
I would have etched those words in GOLD, if i knew how to !!

thanks,

 

[sangom]

Sir, as far i can see yes i mentioned that it "may be possible" that anuradha was also forced into an arranged marriage. However, i do not seem to have tried to fit the matter into a pre-conceived mold of forced marriage > divorce > love with some one of (one's) liking. Kindly let me know what was it about my writing that led you to this presumption.

Sir, this is regarding the underlined lines. I think there are some mistaken assumptions here.

1) First of all, please be assured that there certainly is no "campaign" for ICMs. It just happens to be a matter of fact that Shri Kunjuppu, Sri Raghy and Sri Nara are in their own personal lives willing to accept ICMs. I do not think that merely mentioning their thots and views wud be tantamount to giving an impression as though "the elders here are all in favour of love marriage even if it is ic". Three people (sirs nara, raghy, kunjuppu) do not represent all elders.

2) Plus no one is trying to convey that "parents here, as a whole, are not sufficiently mature to know how to bring up their children".

3) I do not understand why you think the views of sirs nara, kunjuppu, raghy are some sort of a distortion that needs to be "brought to the notice of the forum members".

4) The thread initiator has long gone and is not posting here anymore. I do not understand why now suddenly one needs to concentrate on what the thread initiator said. It wud make sense to discuss what he said if he is participating here now. And this thread had already taken very many deviation and turns since he left.

Wud it be so wrong if some members mentioned that they allowed their children "the freedom to choose their life partner on the basis of romantic love, irrespective of caste and even religion perhaps". Perhaps not this forum members, but there are ppl willing to accept afro-americans in inglorious jobs (this type of talk wud certainly smack of racism to an afro-american reading this).

5) And sir, certainly nowhere has anyone displayed an overzealous attitude to prescribe "western practices" as the remedy for an "eastern problem".


Sir, this is merely a forum where views are exchanged. No one is trying to educate tambram girls or encourage girls "that love marriage, that too outside the caste is the best thing in the world". For that matter, i hardly see posts by youngsters in this forum (perhaps they have busier lives to lead). Folks who read and post things here all appear to be middle-aged people like me and elderly people like yourself. And even if youngsters read stuff here, they wud not be so foolish to base the decision of their life on forum posts.

I request you to please see this: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-attracted-towards-nb-boys-103.html#post58569

And, I for one, will not think that our impressionable youngsters are so dumb as to look to what a few people discuss here, (mostly as an exhibition of our vanity and show-off of our knowledge) than go direct to the internet and other social networking sites.

Smt. HH,

As regards the Lakshmi murder case the following post http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-attracted-towards-nb-boys-107.html#post58795 was what I had in view.

"The man (Manoj) was in love with a collegue (Anuradha) who according to some newspaper reports was a divorcee. It may be possible that Anuradha was also forced into an arranged marriage. One cannot force a pati on a woman and expect her to show pativratyam.

And if you see the photos, it is clear that Lakshmi (the murdered wife of Manoj) was good looking: The Hindu : Front Page : Wife pays the price for forced marriage But Manoj cud not feel attracted enough to live with her. Love is bonding and attachment. It is obviously different from lust which can be driven by good looks. ...

Minus the murder part, this case is no different from the case of YSR's daughter Sharmila (a christian) and Anil (a brahmin). Both Sharmila and Anil were in love. Both were married off in arranged marriages to different people. But both could not bring themselves to 'live' with their 'arranged spouse'. Both displayed resistance. Both divorced their arranged-marriage spouse. And finally they married each other. The only prob in this whole story is that Anil became a christian and we know how driven he is to convert people. "

It may kindly be seen that the similarity between Sharmila’s case and Anuradha’s case is stated as both divorced and married because they were former lovers. I felt therefore that you are of the view that Anuradha and Manoj were also former lovers, married to some person against their will, and so it was quite justified for Anuradha not to have shown any pativratyam. Does it not follow the route which I showed as, forced marriage > divorce > love with some one of (one's) liking? If there is any confusion pl. let me know.

I feel it could also have been that for some reason (not necessarily a forced marriage) anuradha started liking manoj and there is nothing to warrant our presuming that the two were in love even before Anuradha’s marriage; the paper I read did not say anything to this effect.

I suppose I have clearly stated that my remarks on the icm topic were based on the overall impression from reading the various posts. I have also said that a strictly legal and minute study might show that no one said anything more than "I am not against inter-caste marriages". With a lot of time and strain it is possible to show that the impression given was different from the above. but it is futile, I think. Anyone going through dispassionately and without any preconceived ideas will also come to the same conclusion as I do. Though you may not be convinced, you might recall that I was also not against icm and in fact preferred icm with local NBs having similar language, compatible customs, etc., to inter-brahmin marriages with other brahmin groups from other states.

But when, as a finding of the Naveena Swayamvarams, and the inputs I got from local tambrams, I found that the icm does not have acceptance at least in a forum like NS, and since I knew that in increasing number of cases the girls are getting away with what they want and there is hardly any way to prevent icms, I felt that it may not be proper to further go on stressing the line that love is great, it should not be stopped, etc. The tone of the many posts here was to go on emphasizing this greatness of "romantic love", how it is a force beyond all human ability to control by reason, why parents should encourage such love marriages even if it is ic, and not obstruct it, etc. Not much was said about the role of the parents, their wisdom and ability to guide their children, etc. That is what I meant by distortion, stressing one part overmuch and virtually neglecting to give credit to the other. That exactly gives the impression which I wrote as "In making a blanket endorsement of pro-love/pro-icm marriages through very many posts here, the overall impression that one (staying in India and knowing the problems, compulsions and other attendant circumstances of the tambram community here) gets is that the parents here, as a whole, are not sufficiently mature to know how to bring up their children, they are just as conservative and obstinate as they were 40 or 50 years ago, they do not allow their daughters to love, or even if they do, they consistently oppose icms, they break their relationship in anger, foolishly, only to patch up later on because of the love for the daughter, etc., etc. In short, the even the modicum of wisdom, maturity, knowledge of the ways of the world etc., which the tambrams here might have, was completely overlooked as if only our diaspora members were the unique repositories of such wisdom. "

If it is still not clear to you i am sorry my command of English is inadequate to further clarify.

My comments which you quote at the end were made in the context of our youngsters trying to know about sex and related aspects, and the question of pre-marital sex etc., which formed (one of) the subject matter of your response to Smt. Visalakshi Ramani. The full portion is as under:

"The topic of this thread viz., "These days I am seeing a huge change in the trend in which the Brahmin girls used to think and act. They are much interested towards NB boys and they want to marry them irrespective of any problems that occur from their parents side.", as stated by the thread starter himself, gives ample logical scope for whatever discussion has taken place about sex, sexuality, emerging sexual norms etc. And, I for one, will not think that our impressionable youngsters are so dumb as to look to what a few people discuss here, (mostly as an exhibition of our vanity and show-off of our knowledge) than go direct to the internet and other social networking sites."

It was because there are ever so many websites catering to those subjects. I did not intend it as a pronouncement to cover every topic under the sun. If one or two sentences are lifted it will be possible to prove a lot of things which were probably never intended by me, since I don't normally view the postings as some legislation which needs extreme carefulness in drafting. Anyway now I am wiser.

As regards your observation “afro-americans in inglorious jobs (this type of talk wud certainly smack of racism to an afro-american reading this” I request you to kindly elucidate how it could smack of racism? I had already mentioned in my earlier concerned post that some jobs like lawn maintenance, garbage removal etc., are, more often than not done by Afro-americans, as you call them. These jobs are not very attractive even to the non Afro-americans I was told. This does not mean that Afro-Americans are doing only such jobs and that they are not there in glorious jobs in US, does it? So where is the question of racism coming here? Why are you so sensitive that some frank discussion here should not be done because some Afro-American looking into this web page will sense racism and slight to him. But have you ever thought how much many of us have written, without any moral qualms, showing the brahmins of old in a very bad light ? Will not some brahmin, who feels an affinity to his lineage, feel similarly? Should we not then avoid any statement which is likely to be taken by some one or the other in some part of the world as a slight to him/her?

Lastly, though the original poster has gone and it is agreed that usually in this forum for threads take their own course, is it not a tacit admission that this thread for quite some time has been about the virtues of love and love marriages, even if it involves icm?

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri sangom sir, greetings!

... Having understood that, I said we cannot have a campaign for "icm based on love" as the best solution, or launch posts which will give the impression that the elders here are all in favour of love marriage even if it is ic and the "heart should rule" etc., without adequately emphasizing at the same time, the role and the right of parents in counselling, objecting, etc., if they find that their daughter's choice is not satisfactory. In making a blanket endorsement of pro-love/pro-icm marriages through very many posts here, the overall impression that one (staying in India and knowing the problems, compulsions and other attendant circumstances of the tambram community here) gets is that the parents here, as a whole, are not sufficiently mature to know how to bring up their children, they are just as conservative and obstinate as they were 40 or 50 years ago, they do not allow their daughters to love, or even if they do, they consistently oppose icms, they break their relationship in anger, foolishly, only to patch up later on because of the love for the daughter, etc., etc. In short, the even the modicum of wisdom, maturity, knowledge of the ways of the world etc., which the tambrams here might have, was completely overlooked as if only our diaspora members were the unique repositories of such wisdom. My attempt has been only to bring this distortion to the notice of the forum members.

Sangom sir, with due respects, what you have presented in the above paragraph is a caricature. You constructed a tall edifice all made out of straw, and in a grand finale, brought this straw man triumphantly crashing down.

When our children make a wrong choice, we all go through anxiety and grief. It does not matter whether the parent is Tambram living in India, Tambram living in the west, African-American, or Caucasian, or Chinese, or Japanese. Similarly it does not matter whether the mate our child chooses is NB, Dalit, African-Amrican, White, Chinese, Korean, or whatever. A bad choice is bad whether the boy is from the same sub-sect of a sub-sect of Brahmins, or, where it happens -- Vaduvoor or Charlotte.

The grief an African-American parent will feel if his/her daughter wishes to marry an unemployed African-American drug-addict is no less than the grief a Tambram parent will feel if their daughter wishes to marry an equally useless vagabond, B or NB. No sane person would advocate that the parents must, even in these cases, blissfully embrace the choice and let the heart rule.

I am sure parents of a highly educated, successful vadama Iyer girl will oppose a boy who is a high school drop out with criminal tendencies and a load of family-unfriendly bad habits, even if he is another Vadama Iyer. Oppose the girls choice for all the valid reasons, try to persuade her, ask for help, I will stand with such a parent to try to extricate that girl from the ways of her heart at that moment. But, even in these cases, confrontational methods to dissuade the girl from the rule of her heart is unlikely to succeed. The situation must be handled with care, like removing fine clothing that has fallen on a thorny bush.

In the end, if our efforts are unsuccessful, this is the time to take a long view, to suppress the extreme anguish and grief we surely will feel, and show love and support, the kind of love and support I am talking about is something like, we are not happy with your decision, but we will support you and will be there for you if and when you need us. If her heart went for a truly despicable character, she will surely need our help sooner or later, and we must be within a stone's throw to cushion her fall and make her whole again. She, as well as us, deserves this gift of pure love.

In summary, what we liberals are suggesting, cajoling, pleading -- not demanding, deriding, judging -- is for parents who unfortunately find themselves in this situation to not expect for an absolute power of veto -- under no circumstance heart must be allowed rule sans parental approval --, that is all. IMO, caste by itself is a flimsy reason to oppose love marriage.

About the sway we liberals have had in this thread distorting reality, I must say, I have not seen a single posting addressed to an youngster to go out there and fall in love -- but first ascertain that it is NB you are falling in love with -- and then, come what may, go for it, love must triumph even if it means pushing your parents off a cliff. Further, whatever we have been arguing for has not gone unopposed. If anything, the push back has been quite intense and often irrational. Lot of people have contributed to this thread. It has gone through lots of twists and turns. Reading through the thread, it must be self-evident that we liberals have not had a free reign indoctrinating the young people.

best regards ....

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

....As regards your observation “afro-americans in inglorious jobs (this type of talk wud certainly smack of racism to an afro-american reading this” I request you to kindly elucidate how it could smack of racism?

Dear Shri Sangom sir, please forgive me, but I also felt the way Happy did, "inglorious job" was sufficient to make your point. When the phrase "African-American" was added it brought race into the picture.

I am not saying racism played a part in it when you used that phrase. How racism is perceived and responded to is often fashioned by the culture.The phrase in question, coming from a White person here will definitely be a racist remark, but coming from an Indian it is not. In my college days in Coimbatore, we used the "n" word to refer to blacks, thinking that "black" is not a good word to say, again conditioned by culture. Horror of horrors, when I came to U.S. I realized what a nasty word the "n" word is and that the word "black" is what Blacks themselves prefer.

BTW, please permit me to share this funny and interesting true story, narrated by Professor Ogeltree when he was interviewed by Amy Goodman of Democracy Now. This is about a prominent judge who was black. I give below the story from the transcripts of the interview.

The most interesting one is not about police. It’s a friend of mine, Prince Chambliss, in Tennessee. And I put these in there because it’s not just profiling by police. But Prince Chambliss was cutting his grass in Memphis, in a very prominent neighborhood, and an elderly white woman drove by, saw him in his khakis and an old sports tee shirt cutting grass, and the elderly white woman said, “Hey, you, how much you charge to cut the grass?” And Prince turned around, without missing a beat, and said, “I don’t charge to cut the grass, but I get to sleep with the lady of the house.” That woman hit the gas and pulled off as quick as she could. Now, it’s in the book to see if she’s learned the lesson, because his point was, as Carl Rowan has said before, assumptions are made about people based on race, and this litany of cases is making us all think about what we need to do going forward.
​

For the entire fascinating and interesting interview, click here.

Cheers!

 

[suresoo]

Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

sures,
being on the cusp of my supposedly golden years (am 60 now) i am perforce to visit this comment of yours a bit in detail.
sir, i presume from your post, that you are in your 30s or less.

You are a very experienced man and its quite evident from the various reference points you quote in your writings. As you guessed, I’m in early 30 and experimenting ideas hoping it turns out good in the long run.

now i ask you, is it fair, to ask your mom or dad, 60+ in years, to do do your nightwatch? if these are present in the house, our tradition demands that they get up and take over. if not, atleast they will not sleep. their conscience will not allow it.
…………….

The System that can work well in India is
Grand Parents teach kids the good values and provide support to relieve the pressures on son’s/daughter’s with grooming the young. son’s/daughter’s help/support ‘Old aged’ parents when they need us the most. Its mutual sharing of help when our loved ones are in need. By this there is no need for nannies and ‘Old Aged Homes’.


When it comes to us, ‘the diaspora’ yes we have the selfish gene. We call our parents when in need and cannot physically support them when they are in need. Which makes some of us think, we should pack and leave. But the comforts of life blind us. We can discuss in this forum how the diaspora can be more responsible.


But when a daughter gets married to the boy in western country. She packs and leaves the home she had ‘ruled’ for 20+ years. This troubles the girl and her parents a lot and they wait for first opportunity to get together. Two, our parents do enjoy the comforts of the ‘new world’ they are experiencing, the intent is not to get nannies.

sures, i am speaking from experience. you are still young enough to express what 'should'. to me the reality is 'what is' & 'what was'. the saddest words in any language is 'what could have been'. through my posts here, if i could avoid 'what could have been', atleast to one single individual, i would consider all my efforts worthwhile.

I realize the unfair advantages people take (be it m-i-l on d-i-l or young couple on wife’s parents etc).
Sir, I believe the few evils of ‘what is’ should be replaced by ‘what should’. Rather than dump the values ship we are on and jump to the western ship hoping it will take us to ‘Utopia’!!

thanks,

 

[sangom]

Dear Kunjuppu Sir,



You are a very experienced man and its quite evident from the various reference points you quote in your writings. As you guessed, I’m in early 30 and experimenting ideas hoping it turns out good in the long run.



The System that can work well in India is
Grand Parents teach kids the good values and provide support to relieve the pressures on son’s/daughter’s with grooming the young. son’s/daughter’s help/support ‘Old aged’ parents when they need us the most. Its mutual sharing of help when our loved ones are in need. By this there is no need for nannies and ‘Old Aged Homes’.


When it comes to us, ‘the diaspora’ yes we have the selfish gene. We call our parents when in need and cannot physically support them when they are in need. Which makes some of us think, we should pack and leave. But the comforts of life blind us. We can discuss in this forum how the diaspora can be more responsible.


But when a daughter gets married to the boy in western country. She packs and leaves the home she had ‘ruled’ for 20+ years. This troubles the girl and her parents a lot and they wait for first opportunity to get together. Two, our parents do enjoy the comforts of the ‘new world’ they are experiencing, the intent is not to get nannies.




I realize the unfair advantages people take (be it m-i-l on d-i-l or young couple on wife’s parents etc).
Sir, I believe the few evils of ‘what is’ should be replaced by ‘what should’. Rather than dump the values ship we are on and jump to the western ship hoping it will take us to ‘Utopia’!!

thanks,

Shri sures,


I appreciate your awareness of what is possible and, perhaps, more suitable, for the Indian ethos, although you are living abroad.

 

[hoover]

once pandoras box is opened, you are just a helpless human being before all those evil which our forefathers kept in, using the wisdom, traditions, codes of marriages and so on. when you say icm is acceptable, there is no liberty to say no or defence against inter religious and inter recial marriage. if someones one daughter or sister did icm, he should keep himself mentally prepared for irm or ircm of other daughter or sister.

 

[Raghy]

Thanks raghy.

I am not so sure whether my children confide everything with us, try as much as my wife and I do. it is a continuous effort from the day of birth, and increasingly challenging in their teen years.

We both are aware of the need of the confidence of the children, but they hold all the trumps. Also, we are both, after all product of strict tambram households of 50 thrus 70s. some of those nasty values still clings to us, inspite of conscious effort to cleanse it or to avoid passing it on to the next generation.

When the kids reach their wrong side of twenties, there is an effort, I feel from them to turn back to a full circle, the relationship shifting to friend & later reverse parent child.

Still, at all stages, we have found that we seldom know when love gestates. All we can suspect is that something is happening – maybe a wee bit more singing, skipping or restlessness. When the ultimate is presented to us, it is a ‘fait accompli’. We have to take it or leave it.

This is the trickiest and (for the parents) the most stressful situation. Here we have an individual, who probably knows more about us, we know nothing about the other, prepared to meet us and above all could not care less whether we approved or not but outwardly on the best of behaviour (atleast for the first while).

In instances not to our liking, all we can hope, is that this too will pass. Fortunately I live in a culture, where calling off a relationship is as much important as yesterday’s printed news. So we keep hoping that the next choice would be something that we like.

The worst heartbreak for us, is that we like the paramour. Get close to the family. And then the bomb drops, that the young ones have called it off. it is on such occasions that I am reminded of that sad phrase, ‘what it could have been’.

Thank you.

Sri. Kunjuppu Sir,

Greetings. My children don't confide everything with us either. Our son let's us know informations on the 'need to know basis' only. Our daughter is a bit better; atleast she 'tells' us before she does something. Both children seem to know about us throughly, while we haven't a clue about them. You are right, it is scary. I am glad both of the children are very confident. But there is one thing we don't seem to notice - Our life style, the knowledge that the parents would not divorce even if they fight every single day:boxing:. We the parents were instrumental for them to develop the confidence by just being there for them when they needed us.

The reality is, the youngsters have their own mind. In the western society, they are taught well in the school to look after themselves. We as the parents are left to sit back and enjoy watching their developments; of course, they have no problem accepting any help from us, as long as 'no strings attached!'.

But to my surprise, I observed my sister-in-laws daughters too enjoy the same kind of freedom in India. I met two young ladies (university students), and both young ladies displayed exactly similar confidence like my own daughter. So, i suppose, it may not be east or west; it may be just parenting, I suppose.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

AMEN to that!!
I would have etched those words in GOLD, if i knew how to !!

thanks,

Shri Sures,

Thanks once again for this support, that too from abroad.

 

[kunjuppu]

S...
But to my surprise, I observed my sister-in-laws daughters too enjoy the same kind of freedom in India. I met two young ladies (university students), and both young ladies displayed exactly similar confidence like my own daughter. So, i suppose, it may not be east or west; it may be just parenting, I suppose.

Cheers!

raghy,

all my neices nephews of the extended family now in the various stages of the 20s, appear to have many freedoms that folks of my generation could never dream about.

my witching hour was 6 pm, rain or shine, school or holi - days. those rules are a joke now. both the boys and girls, get a scooty and are mobile, and though not flashily dressed, they do dress well, and not necessarily expensive.

the girls by and large stick to salwar, and i was told that you could get a decent cotton one for rs 200 or so. (where idly costs about rs 25.

my children are able to commune and relate to their indian relatives almost instantaneously, thanks to internet, facebook and ofcourse email. canada or the usa is not so exotic like it was when i was young.

all in all, a reflection of the shrinking world. the world i think has changed for the better. india of today is 1000 times better than india of 60s, 70s,.

 

[suresoo]

Sangom Sir,

I appreciate your awareness of what is possible and, perhaps, more suitable, for the Indian ethos, although you are living abroad.

We are one of the recent migrants. We have a significant TB (and Indian) population here and most of our practices are similar to ones in TN.
IMO, migrants from the 70s and 80s might not have had that luxury and easily adapted to western thinking.

thanks,

 

[suresoo]

Dear HH,

To "arrange love marriage" the best way (to me) is to put boys and girls of the same caste into a big hall and get them to interact with each other. Parents please stay aside and do not influence their choice in any manner. Because a parent really has no role in the "actual" or biological mate-selection process.

Perhaps your son / daughter may even fall in "love" and will decide to marry in a few days. It is also possible that they want to "spend more time" with a specific someone. Please do not discourage them from meeting and getting to know the other person. Ofcourse parents can put barriers, ex: a couple is not allowed to meet at a secluded place alone. Here we are encouraging attachment which comes from getting to know each other, and not lust. These gathering can be on a weekly basis, to let the youngsters get to know each other better over a period of time. You can call it a "youth-meet" with games and some refreshments. And you can also bring in teenagers (kids from about 15 onwards ? ).

Please note that your child may break-up with the love-interest, and move on to someone else. It is also possible that your child may go on in a circle undecided. All this is a natural process of growing up. As a parent please be prepared to accept whatever decision your son / daughter makes. And i should think, that this process will certainly increase same-caste marriages.

Finally, as Larry Young says, Love emerges from a "cocktail of ancient neuropeptides and neurotransmitters". It is crucial to the propagation of the species. And it is equally crucial to raising a peaceful household.

If you have not realized, most western countries follow similar method.
For example In US, Girls start dating in early teens under controlled environment, start romantic relationship with/without parents knowledge, live together and marry.

But if look at the statistics,

"In US, One fifth of first marriages end within 5 years and one third end within 10 years. First marriages of teenagers disrupt faster than the first marriages of women who were ages 20 years and older at marriage."

"About one-third of girls in the United States get pregnant before age 20."
Teen Pregnancy/child birth is a growing concern in US, The Girl has to spend 3 years of her study life taking care of the child mostly as single mother. And most of them don't pursue further education after this period.

"One out of every two children in the United States will live in a single-parent family at some time before they reach age 18. According the United States Census Bureau, in 2002 about 20 million children lived in a household with only their mother or their father. This is more than one-fourth of all children in the United States."

Even in a developed country like US, such a model is a failure.

BTW, age 15+ is very crucial in India. Children spend countless hours studying hoping to get the college they dream.

I really hope some people will decide to "arrange love marriages"

I think people in India should give some deep thought before practicing the above method !!

thanks,

 

[happyhindu]

Smt. HH,

As regards the Lakshmi murder case the following post Brahmin Girls Marrying (Attracted towards) NB Boys was what I had in view.

"The man (Manoj) was in love with a collegue (Anuradha) who according to some newspaper reports was a divorcee. It may be possible that Anuradha was also forced into an arranged marriage. One cannot force a pati on a woman and expect her to show pativratyam.

And if you see the photos, it is clear that Lakshmi (the murdered wife of Manoj) was good looking: The Hindu : Front Page : Wife pays the price for forced marriage But Manoj cud not feel attracted enough to live with her. Love is bonding and attachment. It is obviously different from lust which can be driven by good looks. ...

Minus the murder part, this case is no different from the case of YSR's daughter Sharmila (a christian) and Anil (a brahmin). Both Sharmila and Anil were in love. Both were married off in arranged marriages to different people. But both could not bring themselves to 'live' with their 'arranged spouse'. Both displayed resistance. Both divorced their arranged-marriage spouse. And finally they married each other. The only prob in this whole story is that Anil became a christian and we know how driven he is to convert people. "

It may kindly be seen that the similarity between Sharmila’s case and Anuradha’s case is stated as both divorced and married because they were former lovers. I felt therefore that you are of the view that Anuradha and Manoj were also former lovers, married to some person against their will, and so it was quite justified for Anuradha not to have shown any pativratyam. Does it not follow the route which I showed as, forced marriage > divorce > love with some one of (one's) liking? If there is any confusion pl. let me know.

I feel it could also have been that for some reason (not necessarily a forced marriage) anuradha started liking manoj and there is nothing to warrant our presuming that the two were in love even before Anuradha’s marriage; the paper I read did not say anything to this effect.

Sir, this murder case with all background details was featured extensively in one tamil magazine (kumudam i think). This was the hot gossip at that time for techies in bangalore (including my folks). Was told that Manoj (an Iyengar) was in love with Anuradha (a Reddy). Families on both sides did not accept the match due to caste difference. Anuradha was married off (dunno if she was forced to do so but looks likely that she might have been forced into an arranged marriage). But she kept in touch with Manoj. Finally, Manoj-Anuradha decided to chuck their parents and society and marry each other (after Anuradha divorced her arranged-marriage spouse). This led to very bitter squabbles and Manoj was forced by his parents to marry Lakshmi. But by this time Anuradha’s divorce was almost settled. Am not sure what can be blamed in this – fate, parents, love, etc…but no one cud imagine that Manoj cud actually murder Lakshmi.

Keeping that gossip matter in mind, i correlated the case with that of Sharmila-Anil. Perhaps I was wrong drawing out comparing between those 2 cases. If Manoj-Anuradha were so keen to marry each other, i feel they should have been just as bold earlier also. There was no necessity for Anuradha or Manoj to allow themselves into an arranged marriage…..the loss here is for Lakshmi’s parents…cannot imagine what Lakshmi’s parents wud be going thru after losing their daughter.

I suppose I have clearly stated that my remarks on the icm topic were based on the overall impression from reading the various posts. I have also said that a strictly legal and minute study might show that no one said anything more than "I am not against inter-caste marriages". With a lot of time and strain it is possible to show that the impression given was different from the above. but it is futile, I think. Anyone going through dispassionately and without any preconceived ideas will also come to the same conclusion as I do.

Sir, it is equally possible that it is a presumption, to think that anyone going thru things dispassionately, will come to the same conclusions as yourself.

Though you may not be convinced, you might recall that I was also not against icm and in fact preferred icm with local NBs having similar language, compatible customs, etc., to inter-brahmin marriages with other brahmin groups from other states.

Sir, there is nothing for me to be convinced. Am neither looking to be convinced nor looking to convince anyone. I already mentioned earlier, that in front of youngsters these days, middle-aged people like me feel like some outdated ancient relic. We can only discuss our views here. And I request again, kindly do not consider this discussion as something that requires either of us to change our views please.

But when, as a finding of the Naveena Swayamvarams, and the inputs I got from local tambrams, I found that the icm does not have acceptance at least in a forum like NS, and since I knew that in increasing number of cases the girls are getting away with what they want and there is hardly any way to prevent icms, I felt that it may not be proper to further go on stressing the line that love is great, it should not be stopped, etc. The tone of the many posts here was to go on emphasizing this greatness of "romantic love", how it is a force beyond all human ability to control by reason, why parents should encourage such love marriages even if it is ic, and not obstruct it, etc. Not much was said about the role of the parents, their wisdom and ability to guide their children, etc. That is what I meant by distortion, stressing one part overmuch and virtually neglecting to give credit to the other. That exactly gives the impression which I wrote as "In making a blanket endorsement of pro-love/pro-icm marriages through very many posts here, the overall impression that one (staying in India and knowing the problems, compulsions and other attendant circumstances of the tambram community here) gets is that the parents here, as a whole, are not sufficiently mature to know how to bring up their children, they are just as conservative and obstinate as they were 40 or 50 years ago, they do not allow their daughters to love, or even if they do, they consistently oppose icms, they break their relationship in anger, foolishly, only to patch up later on because of the love for the daughter, etc., etc. In short, the even the modicum of wisdom, maturity, knowledge of the ways of the world etc., which the tambrams here might have, was completely overlooked as if only our diaspora members were the unique repositories of such wisdom. "

If it is still not clear to you i am sorry my command of English is inadequate to further clarify.

Sir, i have nothing to do with the naveena swayamvarams. And this discussion is not about NS.

And sir, no one here stressed that love is great or, love should not be stopped or, emphasized “greatness of romantic love"…And certainly nobody said that parents should encourage love marriages if it is IC.

My comments which you quote at the end were made in the context of our youngsters trying to know about sex and related aspects, and the question of pre-marital sex etc., which formed (one of) the subject matter of your response to Smt. Visalakshi Ramani. The full portion is as under:

"The topic of this thread viz., "These days I am seeing a huge change in the trend in which the Brahmin girls used to think and act. They are much interested towards NB boys and they want to marry them irrespective of any problems that occur from their parents side.", as stated by the thread starter himself, gives ample logical scope for whatever discussion has taken place about sex, sexuality, emerging sexual norms etc. And, I for one, will not think that our impressionable youngsters are so dumb as to look to what a few people discuss here, (mostly as an exhibition of our vanity and show-off of our knowledge) than go direct to the internet and other social networking sites."

It was because there are ever so many websites catering to those subjects. I did not intend it as a pronouncement to cover every topic under the sun. If one or two sentences are lifted it will be possible to prove a lot of things which were probably never intended by me, since I don't normally view the postings as some legislation which needs extreme carefulness in drafting. Anyway now I am wiser.

Sir, this coming from you does hurt. You seem to be implying that i lifted one or two sentences in a way that was not intended by you.

I (re)entered this discussion bcoz Smt Visalakshi Ramani thot that pre-marital, extra-marital, same-sex stuff is due to the western influence. And I thot it better to remind her that it is all there in our own scriptures. Moreover she mentioned something which I suspect she may have not followed herself – that is, conjugal bliss only for the sole purpose of procreating good citizens. Which is why I wrote post # 1018: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-attracted-towards-nb-boys-102.html#post58560 -- and included the last para lest she think I was out to influence young minds.

And unfortunately, for me what followed in your reply, remains the way you had written it: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-attracted-towards-nb-boys-103.html#post58566

As regards your observation “afro-americans in inglorious jobs (this type of talk wud certainly smack of racism to an afro-american reading this” I request you to kindly elucidate how it could smack of racism? I had already mentioned in my earlier concerned post that some jobs like lawn maintenance, garbage removal etc., are, more often than not done by Afro-americans, as you call them. These jobs are not very attractive even to the non Afro-americans I was told. This does not mean that Afro-Americans are doing only such jobs and that they are not there in glorious jobs in US, does it? So where is the question of racism coming here? Why are you so sensitive that some frank discussion here should not be done because some Afro-American looking into this web page will sense racism and slight to him. But have you ever thought how much many of us have written, without any moral qualms, showing the brahmins of old in a very bad light ? Will not some brahmin, who feels an affinity to his lineage, feel similarly? Should we not then avoid any statement which is likely to be taken by some one or the other in some part of the world as a slight to him/her?

Sir, racism is different from our scriptures. Am not sure what is it that makes you think anyone here has shown brahmins of old in very bad light. And am rather surprised that you mention about affinity to lineages. A section from mom’s side is vashista gotra. If I say that vashista was born from urvashi and varuna, should it be taken as a slight to my mother? And am not saying something on my own that is not there in the shastras. Similarly, should people of raghukula gotra take offence if I say that Vishal was born from Ikshvaku and apsara Alambhusha ? Sir, I do agree that elderly ppl may tend to take such things seriously. However, am sure all of us can do without the ‘piraippu ahankaram’. There are also some people who think that pandavas were born from power of mantras. However, going by tribal versions of mahabharat IMO they were born of sex. But just bcoz i mention their conjugal origin, should people who feel affinity to their lineage from kurus or pandus feel that it is a slight to him / her? Am sorry sir, even if anyone feels a slight, i suppose it may lead to self-discovery when they try to look into themselves why they feel slight…

Lastly, though the original poster has gone and it is agreed that usually in this forum for threads take their own course, is it not a tacit admission that this thread for quite some time has been about the virtues of love and love marriages, even if it involves icm?

But sir, why should there be “tacit admission” for that. It is there for everyone to see. Am not sure why you felt it was about the “virtues of love and love marriage”. Everyone expressed their own opinions, that’s all. And this thread did spill into what cud have been spin-offs into new threads.

Sir, you are far-far too senior to me. I hold you as one of my gurus and mentors. If I have said anything wrong, or anything that is not perceived to be in good sense, i kindly request you to forgive me...tejasvinavaditamastu, ma vidvishavahai.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear HH,


If you have not realized, most western countries follow similar method.
For example In US, Girls start dating in early teens under controlled environment, start romantic relationship with/without parents knowledge, live together and marry.

But if look at the statistics,

"In US, One fifth of first marriages end within 5 years and one third end within 10 years. First marriages of teenagers disrupt faster than the first marriages of women who were ages 20 years and older at marriage."

"About one-third of girls in the United States get pregnant before age 20."
Teen Pregnancy/child birth is a growing concern in US, The Girl has to spend 3 years of her study life taking care of the child mostly as single mother. And most of them don't pursue further education after this period.

"One out of every two children in the United States will live in a single-parent family at some time before they reach age 18. According the United States Census Bureau, in 2002 about 20 million children lived in a household with only their mother or their father. This is more than one-fourth of all children in the United States."

Even in a developed country like US, such a model is a failure.

BTW, age 15+ is very crucial in India. Children spend countless hours studying hoping to get the college they dream.


I think people in India should give some deep thought before practicing the above method !!

thanks,

Dear Suresoo,

Please see my post to Shri Sangom. I already mentioned the point of not allowing folks to meet in secluded places..Was only saying why not provide a venue where youngsters meet and get to know each other, in a manner that would help promote attachment thru understanding and bonding (and not lust, which can be reserved for later)..i felt that it wud help boost same caste marriages...

Anyways, it was only a suggestion though...

Regards.

 

[sangom]

Sir, this murder case with all background details was featured extensively in one tamil magazine (kumudam i think). This was the hot gossip at that time for techies in bangalore (including my folks). Was told that Manoj (an Iyengar) was in love with Anuradha (a Reddy). Families on both sides did not accept the match due to caste difference. Anuradha was married off (dunno if she was forced to do so but looks likely that she might have been forced into an arranged marriage). But she kept in touch with Manoj. Finally, Manoj-Anuradha decided to chuck their parents and society and marry each other (after Anuradha divorced her arranged-marriage spouse). This led to very bitter squabbles and Manoj was forced by his parents to marry Lakshmi. But by this time Anuradha’s divorce was almost settled. Am not sure what can be blamed in this – fate, parents, love, etc…but no one cud imagine that Manoj cud actually murder Lakshmi.

Keeping that gossip matter in mind, i correlated the case with that of Sharmila-Anil. Perhaps I was wrong drawing out comparing between those 2 cases. If Manoj-Anuradha were so keen to marry each other, i feel they should have been just as bold earlier also. There was no necessity for Anuradha or Manoj to allow themselves into an arranged marriage…..the loss here is for Lakshmi’s parents…cannot imagine what Lakshmi’s parents wud be going thru after losing their daughter.

...

...tejasvinavaditamastu, ma vidvishavahai.

Smt HappyHindu,

I do not have the energy for entering into further protracted posts. So I am making this as brief as I can.

Re. the murder case, if you have news that the two were former lovers then I stand corrected. But I wrote from what was available here.

On other points, yes if it is all left to each one's view point and we only state our points of view, how is it that we don't stop with just putting in our views but insist in rebutting the opposite pov and also call it a discussion? It is too difficult for me to grasp.

As for my statement that I did not expect sentences to be quoted out of context, I still feel that my original statement was in regard to sex and your citing was in regard to love and icm. In my view these are not one and the same. But if you feel what you did was correct, I have no quarrel about it. I only said that before I write in future I will be more careful to ensure that such omnibus sentences do not creep in due to oversight. I did not blame you.

Finally, if you feel that I will have any "vidvesha", then I think you have judged me wrongly.

Wishing you all the best,

 

[happyhindu]

Smt HappyHindu,

I do not have the energy for entering into further protracted posts. So I am making this as brief as I can.

Re. the murder case, if you have news that the two were former lovers then I stand corrected. But I wrote from what was available here.

On other points, yes if it is all left to each one's view point and we only state our points of view, how is it that we don't stop with just putting in our views but insist in rebutting the opposite pov and also call it a discussion? It is too difficult for me to grasp.

As for my statement that I did not expect sentences to be quoted out of context, I still feel that my original statement was in regard to sex and your citing was in regard to love and icm. In my view these are not one and the same. But if you feel what you did was correct, I have no quarrel about it. I only said that before I write in future I will be more careful to ensure that such omnibus sentences do not creep in due to oversight. I did not blame you.

Finally, if you feel that I will have any "vidvesha", then I think you have judged me wrongly.

Wishing you all the best,

Dear Sir,

If we do what you call as 'rebuttal", it would have to be after some in-depth background study, if it were some sort of a debate.

However, when we do not do in-depth background study and basically just exchange views over 2-3 papers, i hope we can call that a discussion.

Sir, i have a small correction reg the line underlined. My citing was not in regard or either love nor ICM at that point (post # 1023): http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...-attracted-towards-nb-boys-103.html#post58569 Later my discussion was on the biochemistry of lust and attachment (or love) only and not about ICMs. It was sri raghy, sri nara and sri kunjuppu who gave their opinions regarding ICMs.

Regards.