A Case for Tamil Archanai தமிழில் அர்ச்சனை செய்வது தவறா ?

[malgova.mango]

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krs

you mis-read that. he say tamil as pisacha bhasha. sanskrit as deva bhasha.

ravi,

tamil is also a divine language, we have kamban, arunagirinathar etc..

sanskrit and tamizh both belongs to the people of tamizh country.

most of the words in tamizh are derived from sanskrit and we revere both.

if one can accomodate english in our land , why not sanskrit.

since you are a bhakta , you will understand what I'm saying.

many shiva bhaktals sung hymns in sanskrit in awe about the LORD.

 

[ravivararo]

It is true that Tholkappiyar and Agathiyar are Brahmins. Agathiyar (who was the uncle of Ravana and Surpanakha (Kula vilakku) and his sishya Tolkappiyar had codified Tamil grammar only. As at that time Sanskrit did not exist, these brahmins did not codified grammar for sanskrit but they codified Tamil grammar alone.

I'm a chozia, my native is Tanjore and we didn't migrate from North. We are natives of Tamil Nadu.

We believe we live there since Tholkappiar times.

Some Brahmins do come from North - that doesn't mean Tamil Country is devoid of Brahmins before their arrival. Tamil Country is Arya Bhoomi since Anjaneya days.

Rishi Agasthiyar was tutoring many Brahmins in his Ashrama during Ramayana days.
Tholkappiyar is a Brahmin.

My Chittappa is a research scholar, teacher and I can scan and produce his research material authentically quoting from various texts that Brahmins existed in Tamil Desam from time immemorial.

So in all times Sanskrit also is with them - there is no historic evidence suggesting all the things come from the NORTH - there may be some influence from the North - that's all.

In Tamil Country the use of Sanskrit is prevalent since time immemorial and temple worship as prescribed in AAGAMAS is also prevalent from time immemorial.

The Fact the Vyagrapathar worshipped Lord and chanted many hymns in Sanskrit on His Lord in Tilla vanam confirms the existence of Sanskrit and Vedic culture from time immemorial.

this "before the advent of Brahmins.... " doesn't hold any water.

So live and let live, this is what we are asking.

............................

"Temple is for Bhakta" is agreed if only Bhaktas are defined as worshipper of the Lord.

First one should know about one thing then they can negate or define it - that is the order of understanding.

See if one doesn't know what is all about Brinjal, if someother one asks this fellow what is Brinjal ? - if one is HONEST then he'll say I don't know what you are talking about. isn't it?

Now , please think and tell can anyone say GOD exists - honestly one should say one don't know - because the recognition of what GOD is doesn't take place.

Then how can one comment existence of GOD is dependent on BHAKTA? GOD doesn't exist in vaccum. etc...

Infact Nirgunam is another term for vaccum ...
..............................................................................................

No one is denying individual worship , they can pray,propitiate and do whatever they want AND can have Dharshan and say prayer in any known language.

You can invoke his names in Tamil and do namaskarams that's perfectly ok.

But you can't force the traditional people doing upacharams to the LORD for generation after generation since time immemorial - to do in your style.
just because you don't like their style.
This is arrogance.. where is Bhakti here. Only your agambhavam is there.
There is no SARANAM.
You are playing a EGO game in the name of devotee.

If you so desire, please build your own temple , invoke the Lord and do whatever you please. No one is harmed in that way.

 

[malgova.mango]

ravi,

did you know Sage Agasthiyar sung hymns in Sanskrit in awe about our LORD.

did you know our Temple architecture is unique and have no relevance to the North.

did you know the music and dance is also unique to TAMIL land only.

did you know in India there is a place for culture with various degree of refinements existed from time immemorial (ie from kattuvasi - nagariga) if you got to koddagu naadu (ooty) they don't speak tamil , they speak kodagu bashai...does that mean they are not natives of tamil land.

If i speak both tamizh and sanskrit - am i not a tamizhan?

O common don't be fooled by politicians they stroke the complexes of people to gain everything. that's how politics works (didn't you see the the satyaraj film (can't remember the name) where they used the technique of jathi sandai to cover the real issue.) the same thing is happening.

kannula manna thoovara vellai....

 

[ravivararo]

<<If i speak both tamizh and sanskrit - am i not a tamizhan?>>

i could speak Tamil, Telugu and English, I am not a Tamilian since my mother tongue is Telugu... My grandma tongue (?) could be Tamil, as ethnically i am dravidian.


:bump2:

ravi,

did you know Sage Agasthiyar sung hymns in Sanskrit in awe about our LORD.

did you know our Temple architecture is unique and have no relevance to the North.

did you know the music and dance is also unique to TAMIL land only.

did you know in India there is a place for culture with various degree of refinements existed from time immemorial (ie from kattuvasi - nagariga) if you got to koddagu naadu (ooty) they don't speak tamil , they speak kodagu bashai...does that mean they are not natives of tamil land.

If i speak both tamizh and sanskrit - am i not a tamizhan?

O common don't be fooled by politicians they stroke the complexes of people to gain everything. that's how politics works (didn't you see the the satyaraj film (can't remember the name) where they used the technique of jathi sandai to cover the real issue.) the same thing is happening.

kannula manna thoovara vellai....

 

[palindrome]

i could speak Tamil, Telugu and English, I am not a Tamilian since my mother tongue is Telugu... My grandma tongue (?) could be Tamil, as ethnically i am dravidian.

ethnically, you are an indian following the aryan dravidian culture if you are from the southern lands.

 

[ravivararo]

You are aware that Tamil language is basis to all south indian languages. so anybody speaking telugu or malayalam are not prevented from ruling us having settled in Tamilnadu centuries ago and who does not know (speak, read & write) Telugu, Malayalam and Kannada, speaking tamil, having fighted against imposition of Hindi in Tamil Nadu.

You please visit all the states in India and then let us speak on these aspects. Read the history of Chozha Kings and then you will understand the relationship between the Chozhas and then rulers of Andhra Pradesh.

Thank god like minded peoples are not in USA otherwise the Obama as President of America would have been nightmare. :whip:

ravi vararo


Rajaji=Tamizh Brahmanan
Anna Dorai=Tamizhan( Charavakkan)
Kamarajar=Tamizhan Nadar
EVR=Naturalised Tamizhan from Kannadigan Naicurse
MGR=Naturalised Tamizhan from Malayalee Sri-Lankan Nair
MUKA=Naturalised Tamizhan from Telengu Vellalar Ambattan
JJ=Naturalised Tamizhacchi from Kannadiagan Iyengar Brahmancchi
Captain=Naturalised Tamizhan from Telengu Naidu
Ramadoss=Naturalised Tamizhan
Stalin=Naturalised Tamizhan from MUKA'S lineage
Maran=Naturalised Tamizhan from MUKA's relations
........etc

Except for Kamarajar,Anna Dorai,Rajaji rest are from outside of TN ie non-tamizh nadu origination...and have been ruling the tamizh's now.So,who are the 'komalis' & 'koothalis' or ' emaali' ?=Tamizhs.

Aryan & Dravidian words were introduced from 1747 to divide Indian-subcontinent.'Muttals' are still chirping about this despite the 'british white english christians' have left the shores of indian-subcontinent to proxies, who continue to harp the same like them!Samskritam is used by priestly personality traits aka brahmanas for worship as per sampradayam.So,kill brahmanas is the answere thought out by kazhagams.

Kazhagam is breaking this tradition in the name of Tamizh,so that they can rule their 'punnakku' idealogy!!like 'paisaschas'.TN needs some exorcist to drive away the demons & devils out,looks like 'yahway-jesus-allah' are starting to do their 'tandavam' by driving away the Kazhagams or maybe from 'chotani karai temple' the namboothris have to be called?

The beauty is,MGR changed the style of Tamizh writing style to a different one while he ruled but not Malayalam style of wrting which was his mother tongue=illicha wayan tamzhan .:dance:

sb

 

[ravivararo]

My Nationality is Indian. My ethnic is Dravidian. My Mother Tongue is Telugu.

ethnically, you are an indian following the aryan dravidian culture if you are from the southern lands.

 

[palindrome]

My Nationality is Indian. My ethnic is Dravidian. My Mother Tongue is Telugu.

What about an indian as a US national? Your nationality is Indian if you hold an Indian passport.

You are ethnically an Indian. Therefore you are an aryan.

Your mother tongue can be tamil, telugu, malayalam, kannada, tulu or any dravidian lingusitic group. A linguistic group is not the same as an ethnic group.

And if you are from southern india then you are from the dravida aryan culture.

 

[s007bala]

ravi vararo

>>You are aware that Tamil language is basis to all south indian languages. so anybody speaking telugu or malayalam are not prevented from ruling us having settled in Tamilnadu centuries ago and who does not know (speak, read & write) Telugu, Malayalam and Kannada, speaking tamil, having fighted against imposition of Hindi in Tamil Nadu.

Tamizh is not the basis for Telengu or Kannadam,maybe Malayalam & Tamizh have greater linguistic commonality,but again are very distinct.So,all the South Indian bashai are unique.As for as ruling goes,India has been ruled by so many groups,that there is no single entity we can single out.India is a 'pacchadi' community with 'kicchadi' rulers & citizens.

As for as hindi goes,its a devanagari script which is dereived from samskritam,which our kazhagam leaders get a itch at the excretory place,and makes them go mad,if they are not already.

As far you,there are a ton of telngu mother tongue people living in TN from time immemorial,who speak telengu at home and tamizh outside with extreme ease.Which is a good thing.But the telengus if they go to andhra,the speech is again very different from what telengu they speak at chennai ( guelte tamizh ).

You please visit all the states in India and then let us speak on these aspects. Read the history of Chozha Kings and then you will understand the relationship between the Chozhas and then rulers of Andhra Pradesh.
Thank god like minded peoples are not in USA otherwise the Obama as President of America would have been nightmare.

It was to make you understand the unity in diversity,despite you being a guelte but welcomed to stay in chennai amongst chennaiwasi..As far as USA is concerned,its no different from any place in the world,but people use common-sense more often than not,instead of getting bogged down emotionally and have their thongs all tied up in frenzy.

sb

 

[ravivararo]

Whether it is America or Swarga or Naraka or in holy Tamil Nadu, I am not chameleon (/Pachondi/odakkaay/Onan/ondhi) to change/hide my identity merely because of Varna/colour System. I am always Indian nationale, dravidian person, Teluguvaadu. 700 years ago, We came from Telangana, Andhra and living and eating in Tamil Nadu. Never we are the Drohi's to Tamil Nadu/Tamil/Tamilians. We almost ignored to speak our mother tongue Telugu and speaking only Tamil, (grand mother tongue?). :tape:. I could not claim that i am Tamilian, merely because i am speaking Tamil language, when my mother tongue is Telugu. To some people, it is really hard to find out what is their mother tongue.

if the varna is the major issue, then Black colour brahmin and Red colour Paraiyar have to be blamed for becaming out caste for the reason of Varnashrama ullanghana.

What about an indian as a US national? Your nationality is Indian if you hold an Indian passport.

You are ethnically an Indian. Therefore you are an aryan.

Your mother tongue can be tamil, telugu, malayalam, kannada, tulu or any dravidian lingusitic group. A linguistic group is not the same as an ethnic group.

And if you are from southern india then you are from the dravida aryan culture.

 

[palindrome]

Tamizh is not the basis for Telengu or Kannadam,maybe Malayalam & Tamizh have greater linguistic commonality,but again are very distinct.So,all the South Indian bashai are unique.

There you go again. Please explain why you think Tamil not the basis for telugu or kannada ?

 

[ravivararo]

<<As far you,there are a ton of telngu mother tongue people living in TN from time immemorial,who speak telengu at home and tamizh outside with extreme ease.Which is a good thing.But the telengus if they go to andhra,the speech is again very different from what telengu they speak at chennai ( guelte tamizh ).>>

True I am such a gulte. But i know both Telugu of Tamil Nadu (Telungu/Vadugu) and the Telugu of Andhra (Andhramu). We could learn both kinds of Telugu. To the gulties (Telungu/Vadugu) of Tamil Nadu , Telugu/andhramu is unnecessary as they are living in Tamil Nadu (while in rome, we the gulties behave as romanians) and we need not live in andhra. Tamil Nadu is our Dravidian mother land. we have our own language:hungry:.

ravi vararo



Tamizh is not the basis for Telengu or Kannadam,maybe Malayalam & Tamizh have greater linguistic commonality,but again are very distinct.So,all the South Indian bashai are unique.As for as ruling goes,India has been ruled by so many groups,that there is no single entity we can single out.India is a 'pacchadi' community with 'kicchadi' rulers & citizens.

As for as hindi goes,its a devanagari script which is dereived from samskritam,which our kazhagam leaders get a itch at the excretory place,and makes them go mad,if they are not already.

As far you,there are a ton of telngu mother tongue people living in TN from time immemorial,who speak telengu at home and tamizh outside with extreme ease.Which is a good thing.But the telengus if they go to andhra,the speech is again very different from what telengu they speak at chennai ( guelte tamizh ).



It was to make you understand the unity in diversity,despite you being a guelte but welcomed to stay in chennai amongst chennaiwasi..As far as USA is concerned,its no different from any place in the world,but people use common-sense more often than not,instead of getting bogged down emotionally and have their thongs all tied up in frenzy.

sb

 

[s007bala]

re

There you go again. Please explain why you think Tamil not the basis for telugu or kannada ?

telegu and kannada scripts are similiar just like cousins unlike tamizh scripts.

sb

 

[s007bala]

ravi vararo

>>True I am such a gulte. But i know both Telugu of Tamil Nadu (Telungu/Vadugu) and the Telugu of Andhra (Andhramu). We could learn both kinds of Telugu. To the gulties (Telungu/Vadugu) of Tamil Nadu , Telugu/andhramu is unnecessary as they are living in Tamil Nadu (while in rome, we the gulties behave as romanians) and we need not live in andhra. Tamil Nadu is our Dravidian mother land. we have our own language<<

Sure you have to learn Tamizh otherwise Kazhagams will kick your bums too,and its a question of survival.How do you think i learnt five indian languages?becoz the first thing one does is learn the local language,as then you are accepted as one amongst the local people!Simple.Guelte's speak telengu which proper andhras will scowl & howl,but then languages undergo transformations like how EVR kannadam underwent a change compared to karnataka kannada!

sb

 

[palindrome]

telegu and kannada scripts are similiar just like cousins unlike tamizh scripts.

sb

what abt brahmi script...

 

[ravivararo]

i dont care about Kazhagam or whomsoever it may be. Urudhiyai Udaippadhu Urudhi is my policy. Thats all.

Learning a language is different thing. but having one's own language is must. We have our own language.

ravi vararo



Sure you have to learn Tamizh otherwise Kazhagams will kick your bums too,and its a question of survival.How do you think i learnt five indian languages?becoz the first thing one does is learn the local language,as then you are accepted as one amongst the local people!Simple.Guelte's speak telengu which proper andhras will scowl & howl,but then languages undergo transformations like how EVR kannadam underwent a change compared to karnataka kannada!

sb

 

[palindrome]

Whether it is America or Swarga or Naraka or in holy Tamil Nadu, I am not chameleon (/Pachondi/odakkaay/Onan/ondhi) to change/hide my identity merely because of Varna/colour System. I am always Indian nationale, dravidian person, Teluguvaadu. 700 years ago, We came from Telangana, Andhra and living and eating in Tamil Nadu. Never we are the Drohi's to Tamil Nadu/Tamil/Tamilians. We almost ignored to speak our mother tongue Telugu and speaking only Tamil, (grand mother tongue?). :tape:. I could not claim that i am Tamilian, merely because i am speaking Tamil language, when my mother tongue is Telugu. To some people, it is really hard to find out what is their mother tongue.

if the varna is the major issue, then Black colour brahmin and Red colour Paraiyar have to be blamed for becaming out caste for the reason of Varnashrama ullanghana.

dunno what exactly is your problem though i doubt if you are a telugu vaadu at all. i think you are a kazhagam vaadu.

and btw, the word varna has atleast 10 meanings in sanskrit. And don't blame only one group for any varna ullanghana of the caste kind. Everyone had a role in making it happen.

 

[ravivararo]

dunno what exactly is your problem though i doubt if you are a telugu vaadu at all. i think you are a kazhagam vaadu.

and btw, the word varna has atleast 10 meanings in sanskrit. And don't blame only one group for any varna ullanghana of the caste kind. Everyone had a role in making it happen.

Then what is the meaning of Varna in Skt. I could bring certificate to show that i am Teluguvaadu, unlike some people who are unable to do so.

 

[s007bala]

re

what abt brahmi script...

what about it?just like pali script!!

sb

 

[s007bala]

>>and btw, the word varna has atleast 10 meanings in sanskrit. And don't blame only one group for any varna ullanghana of the caste kind. Everyone had a role in making it happen. <<

best comment,p.....

sb

 

[s007bala]

>>Urudhiyai Udaippadhu Urudhi is my policy<<

adu policy alla,adu mudha nambikkai?

sb

 

[s007bala]

1) sbala: <<I think Nacchinarkiniyan correctly wrote in one of the threads i think,about Saiva Siddhanthams Sampradayams,portrayals of brahmins, as notherners settling in TN.But then Tamizhs themselves apart from brahmins, are settlers from Africa,is my response to Kazhagams cruel joke on brahmins in TN.>>

The Kazhagams are undoubtedly cruel. But I do not understand tamilans, apart from the brahmins mentioned above.

palindrome

The scriptures says that its only,brhamanas personality traits,kshtariya personality traits,vaishya personality traits,shudra personality traits and goes to define who is a brahamana,kshatriya,vaishya,shudra=in my understanding.Here we agree i think.
Tamizhs are those people who initially migrated from Africa and settled in TN and invented a bashai called Tamizh which underwent a lots of changes over yugams.To say that,brahmins are settlers from northern india=rogues stand.
To say Samskritam was imported from Northern India=rogues stand.As i know that Samskritam bashai was invented for the purpose of worship,intellectual,meta-physical attainments by Tamizhs themselves who are originally from Africa.
Just like today we have computer languages like c,c++,Oracle,Unix,...............etc samskritam was used by brahmana personality trait people for worship just like how tamizh too was used for worship by brahmanas.But samskritam teachers and students were less in number therefore brahmanas had an edge in competing,and could make a living comfortably.
sb

 

[suvarchas]

HH,

As I said earlier let us keep politics out of this. I am aware that the non-brahmins are also opposed to it. But the political parties make it out that only Brahmins are opposing it. The reason why it is happening only in Tamil Nadu is not because of politics. Tamil has been an integral part of Hinduism in Tamil Nadu. You do not have the equivalent of Thevaram and Nalayira Divyaprabhandam in other languages. They are older than many of the Puranas.

The Tamil Brahmins have a very old history of praying in Tamil. We are proud of that. It is the Nayanmars of Tamil Nadu ( Brahmin Nayanmars were there) who started the Bhakthi movement in Hinduism.

Even The great Chola king called Raja raja cholan calls as his eyes both Tamil and sanskrit as revealed in some epigraphy as mentioned by Mahasvamigal of Kanchi.Sekkizhar and other tamil savants or even the saivaite saints never tried to meddle with rituials in vogue because the temple belong to not just Tamils but to entire Hindus in Bharath

 

[pannvalan]

One language need not be at the cost of another.

One language need not be pitted against another.

No language shall be belittled, even if provoked.

One's mother tongue is the best language.

God knows all languages and favours none.

Age of one language, copious and diverse literature in that and its adaptability
to changing times decide preference for that language and also its destiny.

Finally, any language shall not be accessible only to a privileged few. If that happens, it can never earn the goodwill of the common masses.

 

[suvarchas]

One language need not be at the cost of another.

One language need not be pitted against another.

No language shall be belittled, even if provoked.

One's mother tongue is the best language.

God knows all languages and favours none.

Age of one language, copious and diverse literature in that and its adaptability
to changing times decide preference for that language and also its destiny.

Finally, any language shall not be accessible only to a privileged few. If that happens, it can never earn the goodwill of the common masses.

I agree with what you wrote subject to the following.
1.No language is against the other.Kazhag zealots create an illusion that other languages are out to gobble tamil and that they are the saviours which to say the least is humourous

2.Tamil has seen thousands of years without any help from Kazhagams

3.Actually Sri Krishna,Arjuna were members of the Tamil sangam in Madurai

4.When it comes to rituals there are certain rules to be followed which has been in vogue for centuries.This cannot be altered to the whims and fancies of everybody.Hindu temples in TN belong to Hindus all over India and not just Tamils.As stated by Shri Mahaperiyava can we make our own post box aesthetically designed and post letters in it?Will it ever reach the destination?So when rituals are done,it has to follow certain traditions

5.The erroneous impression of every secular individual is that rules can be altered as we alter the constitution to our own whims and fancies

6.Mantras have an intonation effect when even Tolkappiar agreed and stated he is drawing grammar rules only for the physical sounds which are biound by grammar.

7.Lastly when people do not have faith in one system or mode of worship,they are free not to participate or quit form the same.They do not have the right to insist that what they feel is right is to be followed.This is where Gandhi and other leaders erred in acting like a super Rishis which paved way for everybody to think that anything can be altered.