A Case for Tamil Archanai தமிழில் அர்ச்சனை செய்வது தவறா ?

[sridharvasudevan]

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Since certain sounds are naturally found (all that is there need not be loud and clear to us always) and have deep effect in nature or cosmic level. People of the past brought them into the first known language to them Sanskrit. Just because they knew Sanskrit only at that time all usage of those sounds became known as Sanskrit also.

So even the stotras, mantras and vedas are not necessarily in a specific language by itself. Just that we are working up sounds that are considered to generate positive energy.

If we do not believe in this then we do not need the recitation process itself. We can as well get into the meditational aspects as spiritual giants have done.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Temples have mushroomed in line with the need for spiritual gratification of geographically grouped individuals... In my homeplace itself, six new temples have been constructed within the last 10 years! The construction of such temples is itself not according to the shasthras! then why worry about archanais...?

Yet, there are traditional temples where rituals are still strictly performed... I assume that the topic is about such temples which are built as per the shasthras...of these, some have their own unique vazhipaattu murai... In Tirupathi, after the morning puja is over... the saathumurai is in tamil...

With the dynasty form of governance being done away.... smaller fiefdoms (call it by any name) have tacitly taken up its position... moreover, there has been much vandalism against the brahmin that he is only too happy to oblige to whatever customs, his saviours may impose... but this does not seem to be applicable to the temples directly under the administration of the mutts...

All along, there has been an influx of both tamil and sanskrit in temples... as is evident from the upholding of the vedas/upanishads as well as the divya prabandhams/thevaram/thiruvachagam...

My query is - why should we induce a change? If at all it were to be so, then it must be with the approval of the acharyas... it should not be just because we think so...

Just because we love our language, does not mean that we have to change the vedic practices... A few digressions does not serve as a precedent to let go of all traditional practices.

This type of thinking is parochial... Why cannot people learn to appreciate archanais in sanskrit? Is anyone stopping them from doing so? Has somebody claimed that sanskrit is the sole property of brahmins?

Where there is pure devotion, language does not matter - so why this question of making a case for tamil archanai?

In my opinion, it does not hold water...

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Just because we love our language, does not mean that we have to change the vedic practices... A few digressions does not serve as a precedent to let go of all traditional practices.

This type of thinking is parochial... Why cannot people learn to appreciate archanais in sanskrit? Is anyone stopping them from doing so? Has somebody claimed that sanskrit is the sole property of brahmins?

Where there is pure devotion, language does not matter - so why this question of making a case for tamil archanai?

In my opinion, it does not hold water...

There is nothing Vedic about temples and archanai since Temples did not exist during the Vedic period. Trying to portray any changes as anti-Vedic is a typical reaction and would not hold water. There is no great tradition involved here.

If the question is one of devotion and language does not matter, why are the Tamil Brahmin community opposed to Tamil Archanai?

Since for ages the Brahmins had prevented the other communities from learning Sanskrit, it is still too closely associated with Brahmins. Only now the other communities are learning Sanskrit.

It is the faith and devotion of the the devotee which leads to the fulfillment of their wishes. The priests and the Archanai are only the instruments.

I have made out a case for the consideration of the members and the general public. This uncalled for and stubborn opposition to Tamil archanai does not benefit the community. Their opposition is not based on any scriptures.

A question may be asked why our Acharyas and Gurus did not oppose this practice of Archanai which is basically purely monetary. The reason is very simple. The common man has belief and faith in this. He believes that by purchasing a archanai ticket, his wishes would be fulfilled. The temples have been constructed by the Kings for the devotees and not for the priests. The devotee is the customer/ultimate consumer.

Even in this case the devotee will decide the language. I do not see opposition to Tamil Archanai from the ordinary devotee. If the devotees had objected the government would have withdrawn the order. If the sale of the archanai tickets has come down to zero, the government would have been bothered. But this has not happened.

When the Travancore Devaswom decided that devotees could wear shirts inside temples in Travancore, the public opposition forced them to withdraw the order.

Any action which leads to the detriment of the community has to be opposed though it may supported by a few diehards.

Opposition to Tamil Archanai is one such action.

 

[s007bala]

re

SV

>> Is it only to appease anyone's ambitions to look good in public eye or an aethist's eye? Or just because we have prove as someone who accepts change even if it has no rhyme or reason?<<

In TN,its out of fear from Kazhagams goons.So,we yielded to their warped mentality and accomadated Tamil in archanais.In UP again,there is anti-brahmin sentiment.The bottom line is,brahmins are perceived as advicers or rulers of hearts of people.Since brahminism is propagated thru birth,at least the popular notion thus far,people want to break this stranglehold.And when brahmins allow others to interfere in their practices either thru force,coercion or whatever methods deployed-then it spreads to other parts.Its all about how brahmins were/are being perceived by their actions,lead to very many situations.Sab time time ka baath hai!!

Take the Hare Krishna movement here in the USA.While HDG Srila Prabhupada was a 'bengali brahmin',he trained people to adapt & adopt a set of procedures,which will identify them as a society.Today,how many gurus of this gaudiya sampradaya,holding the title of guru,are brahmins by birth?Is it by chance,or sheer coincidence,that we see,a particular varna of people,acting as jagath gurus?of various mandirs in the world?

Tamil Brahmins have undergone Stockholm Syndrome.Its a known fact,that in TN,tamil brahmins were/are terrorised by Kazhagam goons.That is why our religions itself was hijacked and branded as 'hinduism' and its followers 'hindus'.

The british christians and islamic mughals were/are right on the dot,to target brahmins and that is exactly what Kazhagams,and other such allied forces are measuring a new thought wave.Tamil archanais are just wonderful as they are and some prolly prefer to do it in samskritam,as our forefathers did.Kazhagams see samskritam as the father of hindi language.Therefore,want to scuttle away samskritam,lest hindi becomes the 'only national language' of India.

sb

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Was it the general public who formed a movement for tamil archanais???? Nay, it is a thought-process which has its seeds in anti-brahmin minds...

I have made out a case for the consideration of the members and the general public. This uncalled for and stubborn opposition to Tamil archanai does not benefit the community. Their opposition is not based on any scriptures.

Why is the opposition being termed as being detrimental? Your posts strongly suggest that...

Just as we have hindi as the major language in india, sanskrit is the major language for pujas... in that one may see a uniformity throughout india... localizing it is not necessary... and neither is any public demand for the same...

A question may be asked why our Acharyas and Gurus did not oppose this practice of Archanai which is basically purely monetary. The reason is very simple. The common man has belief and faith in this. He believes that by purchasing a archanai ticket, his wishes would be fulfilled. The temples have been constructed by the Kings for the devotees and not for the priests. The devotee is the customer/ultimate consumer

If the priest falters, then the dosham is only on him... for the devotee, the archanai is for his mental satisfaction.... if he needs personal attention, he can very well perform archanai in his house... yes, the temples were constructed for the public, but with certain policies... where is the need to change it?

Since for ages the Brahmins had prevented the other communities from learning Sanskrit, it is still too closely associated with Brahmins. Only now the other communities are learning Sanskrit

Please do not distort facts to suit your cause... there were other communities who were well versed in sanskrit... in fact, even today, there is a village in AP or Karnataka (I dont remember exactly) where the entire set speaks only in sanskrit! Probably brahmins were (are) the only ones who were diligent in practising it since it was ordained for them...

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Please do not distort facts to suit your cause... there were other communities who were well versed in sanskrit... in fact, even today, there is a village in AP or Karnataka (I dont remember exactly) where the entire set speaks only in sanskrit! Probably brahmins were (are) the only ones who were diligent in practising it since it was ordained for them...

Please name one or two communities which learnt Sanskrit. The village in Karnataka which is the only village in India where Sanskrit is spoken is populated by Sankhethi Brahmins, Tamil Brahmins who migrated to Karnataka from Senkottah which was then part of Travancore.

The history of the Bhakthi movement in India reveals that one of the major factors was the frustration of the people at the neglect of the regional languages in Hindu religion.

It is shocking that this issue should arise in the land where the Bhakthi movement was born.

I will write about the Bhakthi movement and how Hinduism is alive today because of it.

Whether the public wanted it or not is not known. The public could not have done anything even if they wanted. May be the government is more in tune with the public opinion than the Tamil Brahmins who oppose it.

This is not the first time that the Sanskrit vs Tamil issue has come. The SriVaishnavas did face this issue. Since I do not know much about it, I am not able to post about it.

Too late to post any more.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

The original question you posed has not been addressed. There seems to be some emotional attachment to Sanskrit by some and so the question you have posed was taken to be prejudicial in favour of using Tamil.

I have often thought about the same issue.

In my mind, reading what Maha Periaval has said about Sanskrit as well as reading about the sound effects of a Manthra in that language affirms the fact that Sanskrit is a unique language structured to provide 'effects' through it's words and sounds.

I have not come across such a claim for Tamil. While it is a beautiful language, no one claims that it's 'sounds' create the same effect as Sanskrit. But it did contribute to the Bhakthi movement.

So the issue is which language should be preferred in our temples.

Being a simpleton, my answer is that both should be treated with same respect. Because what matters is fulfilling a Bhaktha's preference. Each temple then should allow for the Archakas who know both languages and slokas. And options for any Bhakthas to pray in any language by himself/herself without an intermediary should also be an option. One can always institute rules if the latter option is chosen.

We also need to make sure that our 'Tamil' brethren who view Sanskrit as an 'alien' language understand that knowing that language in no way diminish Tamil. And Sanskrit is indeed a 'mother' language of the Tamils. I think this is what is lost today.

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

Reg language, one yogi had said sounds have no language. Like Lam which is moolamantra for mooladhara is just a sound. But when that same Lam becomes associated with lam+bo+da+ra+ya or lambodaraya for ganesha, it may be considered as part of a language. But which language? Since lambodaraya in any language wud still mean the same.

At the same time, am wondering if there wud be any prob in converting something in a namavali like Om Govindaya Namaha into any other language. Om and Govinda is the same in any language. And namaha ? Maybe can use Potri, but in such case wud it still mean the same?

Like Seshji said, true, temples have not been contructed as per agamic principles in the current times; and a bhakta in his desire for what-he-thinks as 'proximity with the lord' turns around many things to his advantage, but all those are the ways of a bhakta.

Like i cannot change my mum who will never accpet a non-brahmin for a priest. To her, one needs to be born a brahmin as well live like one, so she wud prefer someone doing an archanai on her behalf. Same way she cannot change me for the yoga school that i follow. Both of us have our place under the sun. God, i suppose will accept all ways of a bhakta, despite his language abilities or inabilites, shortcomings, turning murai around, etc, as long as he pursues things that do not bring upon any form of harm on anyone. However, having it done the right way wud be great as well.

 

[sridharvasudevan]

Dear KRS, Bala and Seshadri,

I would like to show my appreciations to you all for looking at this from an unbiased outlook. Each of you have looked at it from a different perspective, introspecting thoughts shared earlier in this thread.

In effect what I could summarize was that we have no reason to do away with a tradition founded by great sages.

Also, however changes might have happened with times over hundreds of years, it might have been to bring more people into temples with belief God for a spiritual goal.

When there has been only a great increase in crowd/devotees in our temples in what ever language the archanai or any other rituals are performed, then there is no need to make further changes right?

Also, even if we take places where native language is used for archanai, how many devotees have taken the effort to listen or learn what is being chanted?

It is like saying even we Brahmins would have all performed the Sandhyavandhana properly as per guideline laid to us only if it was in Tamil.

As I can see "changes" to rituals, practices, traditions which cater to ease of people rather than the purpose of visit to temple - spiritual goals, has time and again led to further discounts being sought. Here discounts are only eroding away any little cultural heritage left in places of worship.


Nacchinarkiniyan,

>>This uncalled for and stubborn opposition to Tamil archanai does not benefit the community. Their opposition is not based on any scriptures.<<

Again saying this as opposition and putting it in bold does not say why it needs to be changed in the first place. Again why do you talk about benefit to the community? We are talking about a place of worship where in your words it is about pleasing God. In my words it is about reaching out to God.

Either way how are you saying this when people haven't learnt the tamil verses even though it has been in practice in various places, how are they going to please God just because the gurukal recites it in Tamil? If you or anyone who wants it in tamil, then it is your freedom to recite it in tamil either loud or within your mind right? Why ask someone who does his duty, to change himself when your claim is also not in the scriptures anyway?

Why do you talk about this not being based on scriptures when your own postings have said the current archanai is an excerpt from a larger Sanskrit tri kala puja? If it is not already based on scriptures, then why do you want to bring in a further change which is also not based on scriptures?

Finally, don't we talk to a baby in words that sound sweet and send positive vibes to the child though it has no meaning at all in our native language? Kuzhandaiyum deivamum gunathal onru allavaa? Some words have no meaning by positive vibes. People of yester years have understood that certain sequences of such words pronounced in a certain way provide a certain positive effect on nature. Nature being God helps the devotee in turn.

In your own version from earlier postings the namavali is a sequence of names of God. Does anyone knowing any human language disagree that proper nouns need not be translated at all? So grammatically it does not hold good. Don't we see many native tamilians bearing a rather non-indian touch in their first or last names? Also, proper nouns need not have a meaning too right

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

KRS, HH and Seshadri

Thank you for posts. I am not able to respond immediately because I am busy preparing a document for a competition for children on Hinduism. So give me some time. I will get back.

 

[s007bala]

re

>>This discussion is not about whether the government has the authority to dictate Hindu practices and whether they are right in doing so. These are the points discussed threadbare in many forums. So no politics in this discussion and rants about government interference in temple affairs. We have all been through that.<<

The very basis of change today in TN,is becoz of Kazhagam interference.When Mahaswamigal was in charge of Kanchi Matam,tamizh itself was incorporated by H H Jayendrar Sarswathi.I believe H H Vijayendrar Sarswathi is giving equal emphasis for telegu,unlike Mahaswamigal despite born in Kannada Brahmin family,never initiated Kannada,as the language of importance,but Samskritam.

>>Here I would like to discuss the following.

1. The practice of Archanai in Tamil Nadu temples. Is the practice as per the Sasthras? How the practice has been modified due to popular demand.<<

Its definitely not thru sashtras,that archanais are being performed in Tamizh.The practice has got modified becoz of govt interference.

>>2. Whether there is any bar on doing Archanai in Tamil or for that matter in languages other than sanskrit.<<

There is definitely a goondaism involved by Kazhagams,to prevent Samskritam,as the chosen language of devas from whom vedas came to us (D E V A S is V E D A S ) from which Deva Nagari script became popular.This is lost paradise of India.

>>3. Is it a new practice? History of Tamil Archanai among the Brahmins.<<

Its not a new practice.This is as ancient as the records indicate about Sangam Tamizh.Prior to record,Tamizh existed thru oral transmission,though significantly different from the tamizh of today.

>>I am making out a case for the Brahmins to approve the practice of performing Arcchanai in Tamil in temples. Again it is a point to be discussed whether all the Tamil Brahmins are against it?<<

There is wonderful bhakthi evolved when sung in any language for me.Whether Samskritam,Tamizh,Telegu,Kannada,Malayalam,English,.........etcIt all depends upon the person rendering the rendition.I do not know abcd of carnatic music,but when i listen to M S Subbulakshmi,i am transported to a realm of ecstacy of divineness,hitherto unknown to my consciousness.The legend MSS has sung in almost all languages.Similiarly,i am reminded of the gurukkal in Raja Rajeshwari Temple in Mysore Road,Bangalore,India-when he used to sing extempore,the devi darshinam had a meaning beyond comprehension.He used to sing in Tamizh.Long live Tiruchi Swamigal Long Live Gurukkals.


sb

P.S. Samskritam is the language of the priestly personality of people from the Indian sub-continent.When temple owners or committee,start insisting on language other than samskritam,then its a downer for the priestly class.Only Samskritam should be used in temples,at least in USA.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The case for Archanai in tamil.

1. There is no bar for Tamil or any other language being used for Namavali in the Sasthras.

2. Namavali is not mantras. Namavali by its very name means a garland of names. I had given the reference to the Vishnu Sahasranama book by LIFCO. This is a book accepted by even the most orthodox of Brahmins.

3. Tamil has the great tradition of devotional and also Agamic/Tantrik literature. I forgot to mention the great "Thirumandiram". It covers the entire gamut of Hindu practices. Thirumandiram, Thevaram and Nalayira Thivya Prabhandam. Other than Sanskrit Tamil is the only language which has such a diverse devotional literature.

4. Tamil has been used for worship in Vaishnava temples for centuries. This fact alone is sufficient to prove that Tamil can be used in temple worship. Ramanujacharya laid down the rules of worship in Tirupathi. It includes reciting Tamil Pasurams.

5. Though there may not have a movement, there has been always a feeling among the devotees in Tamil Nadu that the Archanai could be done in Tamil. The devotee does not come in personal touch with the other aspects of worship. But here he is personally involved. I have had this discussion with many of my friends in Tamil Nadu while visiting temples. No demand for such a change was made by any one out of respect for the priests.

Regarding the objections raised.

Somehow this has been always been portrayed as Tamil vs Sanskrit. Is it really so? Tamil devotional literature have had no problem in taking ideas and terms from Sanskrit Sasthras. You will find in Thirumandiram Sanskrit terms and Bheeja mantras being used. The Tharaka mantra for all Saivites is Om Namah Sivayah.

Tamil devotional literature evolved to satisfy the needs of the community. They are neither anti-Brahminical nor anti-Sanskrit as many on both sides of the fence would like to portray. in fact many of the posts here continue that perception.

The Brahmins of the older generation were well versed in Sanskrit and Tamil. To be pro Tamil (பச்சைத் தமிழன்) does not mean you are anti-Sanskrit.

This is a strange attitude which has developed among the Brahmins of Tamil Nadu. All Non_brahmins hate Sanskrit. Who gave you that idea? The non-brahmin Adheenams controlled all the important and old temples in Tamil Nadu. The devotees were mostly non- Brahmins. The Chettiars renovated all the Tamil Nadu temples. If the tradition of the Tamil Nadu temples have been maintained so far, a large portion of the credit should rightfully go to the non-Brahmins.

Today they are supporting Veda Pathasalas and the Sanskrit Samsthan involved in propagation of Sanskrit.

Please see this news. They have a Veda Pathasala in Rajapalayam. It is a center for Sanskrit now.

http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/lf/2002/02/01/stories/2002020100550200.htm

Anti_ Brahminism is different from anti_Sanskrit.

One of the small temples in a poor area of Numgambakkam was rebuilt about 10 years back. They had pucca Kumbhabhishekam with Veda aghosham for three days. There are no brahmin devotees of this temple.

Why are we echoing the propaganda of the anti_Brahmin groups?

And the main grouse over so many decades of the Saiva Siddhanta followers have been the refusal of the Smartas to accept Agama Sasthras.

And then does giving a choice in language to the devotee break any tradition? The Archana tradition itself is against all Sasthras. It is similar to the panda system of the north Indian temple. Gross commercialization of religion. Efforts to eliminate the panda system has failed in many places because the devotees wanted it. Similarly the Archanai syastem wil continue because 1. The devotees want it. 2. It is the major source of income for the temples.

The community may not change its views. But individual can. Next time when there is a a discussion with a friend about this, tell him that you are in favour of it. Try it and see. And you can tell him that there are Tamil Brahmins like me who do favour Tamil Archanai.

 

[s007bala]

The case for Archanai in tamil.

1. There is no bar for Tamil or any other language being used for Namavali in the Sasthras.

2. Namavali is not mantras. Namavali by its very name means a garland of names. I had given the reference to the Vishnu Sahasranama book by LIFCO. This is a book accepted by even the most orthodox of Brahmins.

3. Tamil has the great tradition of devotional and also Agamic/Tantrik literature. I forgot to mention the great "Thirumandiram". It covers the entire gamut of Hindu practices. Thirumandiram, Thevaram and Nalayira Thivya Prabhandam. Other than Sanskrit Tamil is the only language which has such a diverse devotional literature.

4. Tamil has been used for worship in Vaishnava temples for centuries. This fact alone is sufficient to prove that Tamil can be used in temple worship. Ramanujacharya laid down the rules of worship in Tirupathi. It includes reciting Tamil Pasurams.

5. Though there may not have a movement, there has been always a feeling among the devotees in Tamil Nadu that the Archanai could be done in Tamil. The devotee does not come in personal touch with the other aspects of worship. But here he is personally involved. I have had this discussion with many of my friends in Tamil Nadu while visiting temples. No demand for such a change was made by any one out of respect for the priests.

Tamilians should worship in Tamil,is a nice idealogy.That is how majority should feel,as that is the mother tongue.But in a country like India,just imagine,the number of languages.So,Samskritam should be the standard for all Hindus worldwide.Then the target audience is bigger.Certainly Tamils can do whatever they want.

Regarding the objections raised.

Somehow this has been always been portrayed as Tamil vs Sanskrit. Is it really so? Tamil devotional literature have had no problem in taking ideas and terms from Sanskrit Sasthras. You will find in Thirumandiram Sanskrit terms and Bheeja mantras being used. The Tharaka mantra for all Saivites is Om Namah Sivayah.

All the more reason Samskritam should be the standard language for priestly personality traits people to use.

Tamil devotional literature evolved to satisfy the needs of the community. They are neither anti-Brahminical nor anti-Sanskrit as many on both sides of the fence would like to portray. in fact many of the posts here continue that perception.

You are definitely entitled to your perception,as there are others with differing perception.

The Brahmins of the older generation were well versed in Sanskrit and Tamil. To be pro Tamil (பச்சைத் தமிழன்) does not mean you are anti-Sanskrit.

Correct.

This is a strange attitude which has developed among the Brahmins of Tamil Nadu. All Non_brahmins hate Sanskrit. Who gave you that idea? The non-brahmin Adheenams controlled all the important and old temples in Tamil Nadu. The devotees were mostly non- Brahmins. The Chettiars renovated all the Tamil Nadu temples. If the tradition of the Tamil Nadu temples have been maintained so far, a large portion of the credit should rightfully go to the non-Brahmins.

The non-brahmins preferred brahmins as priests,so the tradition continued.Even if temples are not built,a brahmin will have his own stahlam to worship and pray for humanity,as that is his/her dharma .

Today they are supporting Veda Pathasalas and the Sanskrit Samsthan involved in propagation of Sanskrit.

Please see this news. They have a Veda Pathasala in Rajapalayam. It is a center for Sanskrit now.

http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/lf/2002/02/01/stories/2002020100550200.htm

Anti_ Brahminism is different from anti_Sanskrit.

Becoz of brahmins,samskritam is still alive.That is why we are hated by Kazhagams,at least in TN.We continue the tradition even without written records thru a mental process,owing to samskritam,isn't it?Now non-brahmins have initiated steps to preserve the diverse cultural integrity of bharatham.The perception of present day rulers of India is,Brahmins are custodians of Samskritam from time immemorial,therefore to hate one is to automatically hate other...

One of the small temples in a poor area of Numgambakkam was rebuilt about 10 years back. They had pucca Kumbhabhishekam with Veda aghosham for three days. There are no brahmin devotees of this temple.

Very nice non-brahmin community.Very good.

Why are we echoing the propaganda of the anti_Brahmin groups?

huh?

And the main grouse over so many decades of the Saiva Siddhanta followers have been the refusal of the Smartas to accept Agama Sasthras.

Difference of opinion to control have existed time immemorial.

And then does giving a choice in language to the devotee break any tradition? The Archana tradition itself is against all Sasthras. It is similar to the panda system of the north Indian temple. Gross commercialization of religion. Efforts to eliminate the panda system has failed in many places because the devotees wanted it. Similarly the Archanai syastem wil continue because 1. The devotees want it. 2. It is the major source of income for the temples.

Temples are a diplomatic way of serving peoples need of bhakthi plus a nice way of bringing social activity for groups to network.Fund raising is part of the collective system.Sanathana Dharma flourishes becoz of this concept.

The community may not change its views. But individual can. Next time when there is a a discussion with a friend about this, tell him that you are in favour of it. Try it and see. And you can tell him that there are Tamil Brahmins like me who do favour Tamil Archanai.

I am quiet positive changes are part of our nature,either on individual basis or collectively (gumboloda govindaa).When we discuss,why we should talk about your particular views?Do we know you in this forum,on a personal basis,to quote you?FRankly,you are more like some of my non-brahmins friends,from chidambaram temple committee.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

A request to the visitors to this forum

This discussion has seen a record number of views. That means lot of people are interested. But the posters are very few whose views are already known.

Please join the forum and post your views. More posters will make the discussion interesting and worthwhile.

So let us know. May be in a few words. But please let us know your views/opinions.

Thank you.

 

[kunjuppu]

nacchi,

i am with you all the way.

you say it so well, that i just nod my head in assent.

whenever i go to chennai, i ask the priest to say my prayers in tamil. it appears to be accepted there.

whenever i go to my home temple in toronto, i wish i could get the guts to request for tamil prayers. next time i am going to try.

 

[s007bala]

kunjuppu

>>whenever i go to my home temple in toronto, i wish i could get the guts to request for tamil prayers. next time i am going to try. <<

i though toronto was populated with srilankan tamils who have built temples...not sure whether you have south indian run tamil temples there though...

sb

 

[sridharvasudevan]

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji,

The original question you posed has not been addressed. There seems to be some emotional attachment to Sanskrit by some and so the question you have posed was taken to be prejudicial in favour of using Tamil.

I have often thought about the same issue.

In my mind, reading what Maha Periaval has said about Sanskrit as well as reading about the sound effects of a Manthra in that language affirms the fact that Sanskrit is a unique language structured to provide 'effects' through it's words and sounds.

I have not come across such a claim for Tamil. While it is a beautiful language, no one claims that it's 'sounds' create the same effect as Sanskrit. But it did contribute to the Bhakthi movement.

So the issue is which language should be preferred in our temples.

Being a simpleton, my answer is that both should be treated with same respect. Because what matters is fulfilling a Bhaktha's preference. Each temple then should allow for the Archakas who know both languages and slokas. And options for any Bhakthas to pray in any language by himself/herself without an intermediary should also be an option. One can always institute rules if the latter option is chosen.

We also need to make sure that our 'Tamil' brethren who view Sanskrit as an 'alien' language understand that knowing that language in no way diminish Tamil. And Sanskrit is indeed a 'mother' language of the Tamils. I think this is what is lost today.

Regards,
KRS

Happy to note these were the similar lines of thinking I have been trying to convey in my previous posts on this thread. Yours summarizes and provides a balanced view of both sides. Good to see such postings.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The surprising fact is that Tamil has been used for worship for a long time now. The name for Krishna which is often used by Tamilians is Kannan. கண்ணன் I do not think the Hare Krishna people would like this. Then we have Murugan முருகன் who is called by some as Tamil Kadavul. We all know that Murugan, Subramania and Skandha are the same god. Skandha Purana traces his origin. Kumara Sambhava the play by Kalidasa is about his birth. Murugan is also called Velan. வேலன்.

The SriVaishnavas have evolved a special form of Tamil to denote the terms of worship. Worship is called Sevai. சேவை Vishnu is always called Perumal. Sthudhi is called Pasuram. பாசுரம் They have Tamil terms for almost all things relating to worship like Mahanaivedya. Does it make SriVaishnavas anti-Vedic or anti-Sanskrit?

http://www.ramanuja.org/temples.html

The Smartas of the southern districts always refer to Skandha as Murugan and Velan. வெற்றிவடி வேலனுக்கு அரோஹரா Verri Vadi Velanukku Arohara. வேல்! வேல்! வெற்றிவேல்! Vel Vel Verri Vel is the chanting for Kavadi.

Some people were talking about imposition by the the government. The rulers have always imposed their preference. The Kings were tyrants. Can you imagine how the Saivites would have felt when a Vaishnavite Nayak King constructed the Givindaraja Perumal temple inside the Chidambaram temple in 1639 A.D. At least now this is a democratically elected government which is supposed to represent the people.

I would request SriVaishnava members to post their practices of praying in Tamil and also those sweet Tamil terms like ஆராவமுதன், சாத்தவமுது. Thanks.

 

[tbs]

Sri N-ji,

For the benefit of NBs or those who wud require an archanai to be performed by a priest, please can you guide if we can ask the priest to perform archanai in a certain murai. What should we tell the priest so that he can understand that we need it to be performed in the right way? I don't think ppl like my mum know more than a few slokams / stotrams.

hi all,
i think the whole archanai language problem only in tamil nadu... not anywhere in the world... GOD needs bhakthi......God knows all
languages.....these problem in TN created against TB and Sanskrit..
other than nothing.........even in mosques they follow arabic/
and churches still follows latin/greek languages.....in mosques/
churches nobody has guts to interefere.........only tamil brahmins
are ..ILICHA VAYAN......so it is granted...

regards
tbs

 

[happyhindu]

Can you imagine how the Saivites would have felt when a Vaishnavite Nayak King constructed the Givindaraja Perumal temple inside the Chidambaram temple in 1639 A.D.

Sir,

I think the Govindaraja Perumal shrine was already existing ages before those
nayaks. This is a very nice article on Thiru Chithrakoodam: http://www.divyadesamonline.com/hindu/temples/chidambaram/chitrakoodam-temple.asp

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

This is a point of dispute. I have seen the site earlier. Then it is a historical fact that temples for Vishnu were erected in every Saivite temple during the period of Krishna Devaraya and later the Nayaks who were all Vaishnavites. There is hardly any Siva temple in Tamil Nadu which does not have a Vaishnavite shrine. This is all history. I made this statement only to show how the Kings imposed their preferences on the people.

I quote from the site

Though there are lots of difference of Opinions between the Shaivities and Vaishnavities dating back from the period of Alwars, atleast let us unite together to stop these meaningless fights and accept the unity between the lords.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Sri N-ji,

For the benefit of NBs or those who wud require an archanai to be performed by a priest, please can you guide if we can ask the priest to perform archanai in a certain murai. What should we tell the priest so that he can understand that we need it to be performed in the right way? I don't think ppl like my mum know more than a few slokams / stotrams.

HH,

The priests of our temples who are very sincere are often unhappy that the devotee is more interested in the Sankalpa and not the Namavali. He would be very happy to do a Namavali either in Sanskrit or in Tamil loudly so that you can also hear it.

It is easier to get the attention of the priest in a smaller temple where there are not many devotees. The system of Archanai is not as per the scripture, but the Bhakthas have faith in it. Faith is all that is important in worship.

The panda system in north Indian temples is notorious for harassing the devotees. Anyone who has visited the Lord Jagannath temple at Puri would remember the pandas. Similarly you can not even break a coconut in Rameswaram without paying the pandaram. They are there in Thiruchendur also. But these systems will continue to exist as long as people have faith in it.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

I think the views of sb are fairly unbiased on this issue... and I agree with his latest post.

There is no great public demand... seems like people are interested in creating an artificial demand for tamil archanais.

If one goes to any other state, one would not be able to appreciate or understand the archanais if everyone follows this logic.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The other states do not face this problem because

1. None of the other languages have any Ancient scriptures like Thiru Mandiram, Nalayira Divya Prabhandam and Thevaram. They do not have a tradition of worshipping in their languages unlike the Tamilians.

2. Tamil is an ancient language and now even die hard academics in north/east India accept that it is as old a language as Sanskrit.

3. It is Tamil Nadu which started the Bhakthi movement which spread to the rest of India. This is now accepted by all academics.

3. All other languages have greater affinity to Sanskrit than Tamil.

So We the Tamils are justifiably proud of our ancient and great tradition and culture.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

The other states do not face this problem because

1. None of the other languages have any Ancient scriptures like Thiru Mandiram, Nalayira Divya Prabhandam and Thevaram. They do not have a tradition of worshipping in their languages unlike the Tamilians.

2. Tamil is an ancient language and now even die hard academics in north/east India accept that it is as old a language as Sanskrit.

3. It is Tamil Nadu which started the Bhakthi movement which spread to the rest of India. This is now accepted by all academics.

3. All other languages have greater affinity to Sanskrit than Tamil.

So We the Tamils are justifiably proud of our ancient and great tradition and culture.

Every one will take pride in his mother tongue... and along with it comes his own justifications...

Our culture includes both tamil and sanskrit - by dividing into finer segments, we are only helping to establish parochial views... tamil and sanskrit already co-exist in many of the temples... but explicitly making a law that archanais should only be made in tamil seems somewhat a prejudiced view and not in the interests of the culture but only to express resentment against sanskrit...

Whatever traditions a particular temple has been following - the same should be continued. If at all, the gurus of our community should establish common practices based on the agamams...