Will this be a solution to Caste Divide Indian Society ?

[auh]

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I remember reading in the daily thanthi that an icm couple (bg-nbb) got gold ( coin or whatever) awarded by karunanidhi... Just to point out that such measures have been tried...

 

[biswa]

I never claimed political rights in what I wrote. It is a VISA !!! I have said that a few times now. It is a VISA (NOT A PASSPORT) referred to in India by many including at Immigraiton counters as Dual citizenship VISA. It is also known as OCI visa (Overseas CITZEN of India VISA).

You have to pay Indian income tax also if you stay more than 6 months in India .. Laws of India apply to a person first in India if one has OCI visa but the same is not true for a PIO (person of Indian Orgina ) card holder.

There was no question about who can write what provided they have internet access - why state the obvious...

So let us be clear, you are not an Indian citizen, you are not even an NRI. You are a foreigner of Indian origin, just like Ms. Renuka or many other people in the forum. So no special criticism rights for anybody.

Indian laws have nothing to do with PIO or OCI. If anybody commits a murder in India, he/she will be tried by the Indian courts regardless of visa status or duration of stay.

 

[renuka]

Dear TKS ji,

I was wondering last night..that when you are actually Captain America yet you play the role of Dwarapala of India?

You know when I fly to India I am asked to fill up disembarkation forms..I am sure you also would yaar..becos you are NOT a citizen of India!

You remember in that thread where some TB girl was asking about her marriage with a Karunaseer guy? Remember at one stage Vaagmi ji asked everyone to shut up becos he said those from abroad dont really know fully about the culture in India?

I shut up for almost 12 hours because Vaagmi ji had a point!

He is an Indian citizen..he followed his orthodox culture..so he feels he knows it better than others who had left the country.

So now my dear..You are Captain America and I am a Malaysian Citizen..so that does not give either one of us the right to act like Jaya or Vijaya Dwarapala of India.

So you see I am not targeting Indians or India or PIO or any specific community..I am merely stating my opinion as a person who is also genetically Indian.

I hope I am clear Captain America!

 

[tks]

So let us be clear, you are not an Indian citizen, you are not even an NRI. You are a foreigner of Indian origin, just like Ms. Renuka or many other people in the forum. So no special criticism rights for anybody.

Indian laws have nothing to do with PIO or OCI. If anybody commits a murder in India, he/she will be tried by the Indian courts regardless of visa status or duration of stay.

My comments have nothing to do with my status.. but on the merits of what is presented in a post.
I dont think in this forum there is any difference based on our citizenship status as disclosed by us. If one does not disclose anything that does not mean anything either.

Criticizing that all people of Indian race have caste mentality is a put down since here caste term is used in a derogatory meaning in this context . Though Dr Renu is welcome to hold her opinion and it is really not that significant I just wanted to voice my objection to such a gross generalization.

One can be from Timabaktu to point that out. There is no special privileges needed. One does not have to be citizen of any country to point that out.

Again you are and have been stating the obvious.

Indian visa is not applicable to Indian citizens. Please read up on the rules of OCI visa holders in terms of how laws are interpreted and applied unlike visa holders of India in other categories.

Again the whole visa discussion is a distraction to my critique.. I just answered a question about loyalty. I come across many "Indians" that are ready to put down own family, ancestry, and their country of origin. I wanted to respond if I see anything like those statement here.

Most country citizens are allowed to apply for OCI visa. It is like a green card in USA since one can go and come back anytime and stay as long as one wants in India. Many people looked forward to applying for that visa because of many of early applicants felt more connected to India as our country of our origin. USA allows dual citizenship but India does not.

There are many who are willing to bash India and if I see over generalizations here I will speak up (if I have the time to waste)

 

[renuka]

Criticizing that all people of Indian race have caste mentality is a put down since here caste term is used in a derogatory meaning in this context . Though Dr Renu is welcome to hold her opinion and it is really not that significant I just wanted to voice my objection to such a gross generalization.

Dear Captain America,

When others write something(especially me)....its gross generalization..then you yourself use words that others have hatred in their post..that is not even generalization but a persecution complex!LOL

So you see Captain..the world sees everything the way they want to see it.

You see it your way..I see it my way..if you have a problem with that..take the highway!LOL

 

[renuka]

In this world.. almost everyone sings this song!

My Way

And now, the end is near,
And so I face the final curtain.
My friends, I'll say it clear;
I'll state my case of which I'm certain.

I've lived a life that's full -
I've travelled each and every highway.
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Regrets? I've had a few,
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each charted course -
Each careful step along the byway,
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew,
When I bit off more than I could chew,
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall
And did it my way.

I've loved, I've laughed and cried,
I've had my fill - my share of losing.
But now, as tears subside,
I find it all so amusing.

To think I did all that,
And may I say, not in a shy way -
Oh no. Oh no, not me.
I did it my way.

For what is a man? What has he got?
If not himself - Then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way.

Yes, it was my way.

 

[krish44]

It is irritating to find people of indian origin in other countries holding citizenship of these countries counselling indians about right and wrong and developing

mightier and holier than thou attitude .

we are the least bothered what whether they are PCI or OCI or anything else

People of modern india know what they want and how to function to meet their needs without lectures from abroad .vaagmi ji was right in stating his views in unambiguous words

these foreign citizen of indian origin can choose some other forum to discuss their citizen ship status

they are the rootless indian race who remember india in their old age when their off springs do not want them and think india should accomodate them as a matter of right

India is a generous country . It takes care of the old unwanted indian race from any part of the world . It might also arrange special planes to get them back if they are

thrown out of their country of citizenship.

 

[renuka]

Dear Krish ji,

I think I need to coin a new term..Indians without Borders.

Because that it will clear all doubts that no one is finding fault with India..as a genetic Indian we just simply discuss what plagues Indians all over the world becos the average Indian is very much the same no matter which part of the world he is.

Problems of intercaste marriage is also seen in Malaysia.

I know many of my friends who did not end up marrying their boyfriends/girlfriends becos one was Mudaliyar and the either was a Gounder.


Just to add..some of us here have no contact with anyone in India.
We have been so long in Msia that we have no idea who are even our relatives in India.
We only know the village of origin and nothing more.

 

[P.J.]

The idea of posting my op is to suggest that Inter caste marriage between upper caste Hindus with other castes so that the Society becomes more homogeneous and many unmarried eligible bachelors from upper caste find suitable brides from other sections; other divisions in the name of reservations, job quota etc etc may POSSIBLY come down in due course.

 

[renuka]

The idea of posting my op is to suggest that Inter caste marriage between upper caste Hindus with other castes so that the Society becomes more homogeneous and many unmarried eligible bachelors from upper caste find suitable brides from other sections; other divisions in the name of reservations, job quota etc etc may POSSIBLY come down in due course.

Dear PJ sir,

I was reading some parts of Manu Smriti yesterday where it addresses specific code of conduct and duties for all Varnas and including Mixed castes.
Even a child who is born from a Brahmin father and a Kshatriya mother is not considered a Brahmin but considered a mixed caste.

So this Varna mixing and mixed caste phenomenon has been around for a long long time even in the days of Manu.

So mixing of any kind is not going to make anything homogenous.

Divisions of a new kind will crop up for personal and political interests.

 

[krish44]

Dear renukaji

Many of indian origin have left india more than 50 years back and they have an image of india as it was that many years back

India has largely changed

so when some people settled in faraway lands in US and canada talk about what is ailing the indian race in india and go into advisory mode , it turns many of us off

they preferred to be second class citizen of these countries putting up with white supremacy without murmur and give lectures on indian caste system deriding indians in

india.

they interpret hindu religion as they see fit and they want that identity when their children cut across race and intermingle ,marry and produce a mixed race.

they hunger in old age to return to india and run for the security of our old age homes putting a strain on national resources

I wish like you have done,others are also totally committed citizen of the country which has given them citizenship .they can try at the same time take the good points of

hindu religion for retention and following and rejecting those which do not relate to modern living .

indians in india are also doing the same . they are unable to take sermons from those in foreign land and try giving sermons to indians here

 

[tks]

It is irritating to find people of indian origin in other countries holding citizenship of these countries counselling indians about right and wrong and developing

mightier and holier than thou attitude .

we are the least bothered what whether they are PCI or OCI or anything else

People of modern india know what they want and how to function to meet their needs without lectures from abroad .vaagmi ji was right in stating his views in unambiguous words

these foreign citizen of indian origin can choose some other forum to discuss their citizen ship status

they are the rootless indian race who remember india in their old age when their off springs do not want them and think india should accomodate them as a matter of right

India is a generous country . It takes care of the old unwanted indian race from any part of the world . It might also arrange special planes to get them back if they are

thrown out of their country of citizenship.

Mr Chameleon

I usually skip over your posts but I ended up reading this by mistake and hence responding.

This is a global forum - as was mentioned by someone all one needs is access to internet to be a member of this forum.

You have specialized in making ignorant and narrow minded comments which is why I normally skip over your posts. With few others you have earned other reputations like the title bestowed on you.


Please grow up ..

 

[krish44]

Mr Chameleon

I usually skip over your posts but I ended up reading this by mistake and hence responding.

This is a global forum - as was mentioned by someone all one needs is access to internet to be a member of this forum.

You have specialized in making ignorant and narrow minded comments which is why I normally skip over your posts. With few others you have earned other reputations like the title bestowed on you.


Please grow up ..

thank you sir
pl skip my posts .

Have I forced you to read them?

you have made the mistake of not only reading but responding also which could be a bigger mistake'

the term global does not give anyone the right to bestow title on others .

I can think of of a dozen titles which will fit likes of you

but decency prevents me from doing so .

we are indians from india . the real indians .

we are not semi westernised indians suffering from hallucinations about their own wisdom

 

[tks]

thank you sir
pl skip my posts .

Have I forced you to read them?

you have made the mistake of not only reading but responding also which could be a bigger mistake'

the term global does not give anyone the right to bestow title on others .

I can think of of a dozen titles which will fit likes of you

but decency prevents me from doing so .

we are indians from india . the real indians .

we are not semi westernised indians suffering from hallucinations about their own wisdom

A clarification : . That title was not from me .. It was earned from another member in another thread.. I was merely pointing that out.

Not reading or responding further on this

 

[sarang]

Some suggestions:
1. Don't use the word 'caste'. It has a negative connotation and negative vibrations; it is an unwelcome import from the whites - I believe, portugese. Instead use the correct and native terms - varna, jati, kulam.
2. Accept the diversity. Diversity per se is not bad; it exists everywhere. Uniformity is not necessary for unity. Our ancestors lived in harmony and glorified their jatis without in anyway afflicting the social structure. At the village level jati was a powerful unifying entity offering security and comfort to all jatis. It provided social security, religious practices freedom and shared load.
3. Even brahmins despite so misrepresented vedic education, had to finally end up doing all jobs - cooks to ministers to conducting yagams and unchavrutti. All were not in equal status as far as education, vocation and wealth are concerned. So is the case with other varnas too. Members from all jatis served the king in various levels, fought in wars and involved in trade and skill based activities.
4. I believe jati-kula system will not go unless majority of population become muslims or christians. There are enough people in all jatis who are proud of their heritage and lineage to sustain the group.
5. Inter jati marriage is not a serious problem in the long run provided the couple have a healthy respect for the religion and traditions. This is not a new phenomenon, and sub grouping or regrouping has happened in the past too.
6. Inter religious more dangerous and disruptive to us, because we are more tolerant but the converse is not true. The boy or the girl is forced to change to the abrahamic faith for the relationship to work.

 

[krish44]

a clarification : . That title was not from me .. It was earned from another member in another thread.. I was merely pointing that out.

Not reading or responding further on this

a big thanks

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear PJ sir,

I was reading some parts of Manu Smriti yesterday where it addresses specific code of conduct and duties for all Varnas and including Mixed castes.
Even a child who is born from a Brahmin father and a Kshatriya mother is not considered a Brahmin but considered a mixed caste.

So this Varna mixing and mixed caste phenomenon has been around for a long long time even in the days of Manu.

So mixing of any kind is not going to make anything homogenous.

Divisions of a new kind will crop up for personal and political interests.

Doctor,

"Mixing of any kind is not going to make anything homogenous".
Varnasrama and Manu smrithi have no relevance in today's world. In my view Caste as a Social division will continue, though it has lost its religious relevance. Creator or his creation has not shown homogeneity in creation.
Divisions will always be there. Ultimately economic disparity will decide on Caste !


Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[renuka]

Divisions will always be there. Ultimately economic disparity will decide on Caste !


Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

Well said sir.

 

[krish44]

I understand some castes other than brahmins eg mudaliars etc are treated as forward caste

matter of time , intermediate castes[ politically and econamically as a consequence] may use their economic power to intermix with forwards to a big extent reducing if not obliterating the caste barriers.

most TN brahmin families I understand have at least one female member marrying other castes due to various reasons.

in couple of generations we will have a sizeable number crossing caste barriers and many will be forward caste only.

it is only dalits and very economic backward that have to face caste prejudices and think of conversion to other religion to escape discrimination

 

[Brahmanyan]

Will this be a solution to Caste Divide Indian Society ?

Well said sir.

Doctor,
Further to my earlier post I wish to add a few lines.
Caste is social division based on the work pursued by the individual of a group, a form of division of labour based on work in the modern parlance It was relevant when learning a trade was confined to the Caste, when the father parted his knowledge to his offspring due to economic considerations. It is my understanding that Caste was further sub-division of Varnasrama (a form of structured Social Order) . From the epics we find intermixing of Varna was not uncommon. whereas in the cloistered social group intermixing of caste is not that easy or common. It is our experience that unbridled intermixing of Castes have created friction in the society. However, the Dharma Sastras which are basically religious/legal codes based on the social requirement of a particular period of time to maintain equilibrium among the people living in a society, have given legitimacy for intermixing of castes.

When I think dispassionately on the issue, I don't find any thing wrong in Caste system, which is natural phenomena in the orderly social system. Otherwise this would not have sustained for thousands of years. But, Inequality among the Castes like forward and backward is wrong. But this also has its limitations in practice due to economic considerations.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[sarang]

I disagree. When was manusmriti relevant in day to day life or in the polity? Not for a very long time or when the islamic and english invasion happened. One cannot find a single instance in real life or literature, religious or secular, which substantiates the punishments 'quoted from mausmriti'. But there is enough reference to show that the islamic rulers and missionary christians saw brahmins as the stumbling block to be neutralized if the country's backbone is to be broken. Caste is a confusing perhaps derogatory term; kula and jati will remain as the basic structure of sanatana dharma; each jati has unique traditions, unique gods for worship and rituals. Dry vedanta may appeal to super intelligent or the egoists, but all those practicing folk will respect and value their kulam and jati. Dharampal's essays and books may help one to understand the popularity and universality of education in the early british rule days.

Jati discrimination, jati appeasement, jati reservation for education and jobs create heartburn and disturbance. Even in the recent kalvettu found in tirunelveli on the election of village panchayat, members were from all sections of community but with stringent qualifications on honesty. Only in case of brahmins, vedadhyaana was compulsory. Brahmins were in other vocations too.

There have been several upheavals in the past, which forced brahmins to migrate, hide their identity, change their sampradayams and customs. It is a different wind today - chasing money, position and comforts. Transformation, yes; but no extinction. There is enough interest, devotion and perseverance in preservation and furtherance.

Doctor,

"Mixing of any kind is not going to make anything homogenous".
Varnasrama and Manu smrithi have no relevance in today's world. In my view Caste as a Social division will continue, though it has lost its religious relevance. Creator or his creation has not shown homogeneity in creation.
Divisions will always be there. Ultimately economic disparity will decide on Caste !


Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[renuka]

Dry vedanta may appeal to super intelligent or the egoists, but all those practicing folk will respect and value their kulam and jati.

Vedanta is not dry...if one has tears of Bhakti when reading it..it is moist like dew drops on a rose petal.

The problem is Vedanta actually crumbles false believes held on ever so tightly in the name of Jati and Kulam.

So when truth is staring at one's face, throats of those who cant digest it gets dry and they run for water to quench their thirst.

 

[Vaagmi]

I dont have dual citizenship.I am Msian citizen.My loyalty is ONLY to Malaysia even though genetically I am of Indian origin.To India I am a tourist...that is what my Visa says..Tourist Visa!

As a Indian by race I have noticed that no matter where an Indian is..they usually still adhere to caste.

Organizing people by caste in ancient India was a master stroke of a solution to social problems in those times. It was, as a social engineering solution, far ahead of its times too. It is not equivalent to the totem pole of a medieval African tribe (and what our tamil movies try to make it out with its muthal mariyathais, thevar makans, chinna gounder stupid gounders etc., etc.,). Those who understand castes can live with it peacefully. Those who can not understand will be using it to sell hatred and make money or reap other political advantages. There is another group which is arm-chair revolutionary intellectuals who, in their homogenising frenzy, lose sight of the beauty of heterogeneity and the advantages that go with it. LOL.

 

[renuka]

Organizing people by caste in ancient India was a master stroke of a solution to social problems in those times. It was, as a social engineering solution, far ahead of its times too. It is not equivalent to the totem pole of a medieval African tribe (and what our tamil movies try to make it out with its muthal mariyathais, thevar makans, chinna gounder stupid gounders etc., etc.,). Those who understand castes can live with it peacefully. Those who can not understand will be using it to sell hatred and make money or reap other political advantages. There is another group which is arm-chair revolutionary intellectuals who, in their homogenising frenzy, lose sight of the beauty of heterogeneity and the advantages that go with it. LOL.

where were you?? you missed the citizenship,PIO Visa, dual citizenship drama!LOL

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear TKS ji,

I was wondering last night..that when you are actually Captain America yet you play the role of Dwarapala of India?

You know when I fly to India I am asked to fill up disembarkation forms..I am sure you also would yaar..becos you are NOT a citizen of India!

You remember in that thread where some TB girl was asking about her marriage with a Karunaseer guy? Remember at one stage Vaagmi ji asked everyone to shut up becos he said those from abroad dont really know fully about the culture in India?

I shut up for almost 12 hours because Vaagmi ji had a point!

He is an Indian citizen..he followed his orthodox culture..so he feels he knows it better than others who had left the country.

So now my dear..You are Captain America and I am a Malaysian Citizen..so that does not give either one of us the right to act like Jaya or Vijaya Dwarapala of India.

So you see I am not targeting Indians or India or PIO or any specific community..I am merely stating my opinion as a person who is also genetically Indian.

I hope I am clear Captain America!

Renukaji,

1. As you have brought in what I said, I add this:

I asked to shut up only in the context of offering free advice to a girl about an important development in her life. i am glad that you understood that and stopped advising because your background and value system are different from that of the TB background and value system.

2. I do not know what the 12 hours voluntary shutting down means. The 12 hours. Was it too much? LOL. And the Orthodox culture. Orthodox means different things to different people. If I say I am a TB gentleman who wears three piece suit while attending conferences, do not sport a tuft, do not wear a naamam while on work/business, speaks English as good as an American, speaks Hindi as good as a UP bhaiyaji, watches x-rated movies occasionally etc., you may still call me orthodox and invent a new word "mentally orthodox" because of the views I hold. Please understand that the revolutionary views today become orthodox in no time and that is the beauty and tragedy wrought by the alchemist called time. Where is the "dictatorship of the proletariat" today? Think about that.

3. Or is it that the point that I had and that you saw vanished in the 12 hour time? LOL.

4. My dear Renumma, caste system is beautiful, beneficial to the society and meaningful for administration and development of the society as long as it is not worn by people on sleeves and superiority-inferiority binary logic is not brought in. Hope you would appreciate this view point.LOL.