Why?

[pannvalan]

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1. Ilango Adigal in Silappathikaram and Kambar in Ramayanam use this word 'aravam'
to mean osai (sound). In fact, different kinds of sounds and the specific names
for each of them basing on their source are described. 'Aravam' is one among
them. ('Osai' in old Tamil literature was 'Odhai'. 'Odhuthal' is recital in another context.).

2. 'Ravam' is a Sanskrit word and when prefixed by 'a' it conveys the just opposite
meaning. In the 'Murali Rava Mohana Ganam', mellifluous and enchanting music
flowing out of Kannan's flute is referred to.

3. The Tamil word 'Aram' means 'Dharmam'. It has no connection here.

4. Yes, the word 'aravam' denotes snake also in Tamil, because of the hissing sound
it makes.

 

[happyhindu]

Very interesting...

So aravam can be :

1) Of IE origin or of dravidian origin (perhaps proto-dravidian then ??)
2) Noise: of an army, if of dravidian origin.
3) Noise: generally, if of IE origin.
4) Sound (osai): related to music, if of dravidian origin.
5) Snake: if of dravidian origin (naga folk ?)

So, there are 3 pointers to dravidian origin as against only 1 of IE origin...if anyone comes across more possibilites, please do post....

Someone suggested that the term came to be used during the Chola expansions towards the north of the tamil lands. It might make sense (?)...

Brahmins are referred to as dangerous than snakes by DK people. May be aravam also conveys this meaning when referred in a derogatory sense?

Nope. Aravam is not used to refer to brahmins, it is used to refer to the tamil language. So the context of usage does not apply here....

Sometimes it is a wonder how DK comes up with such hate stuff...wonder what does that make them then..

 

[vanavil]

I meant the meaning like 'dangerous like snake' to whoever they referred to in derogatory sense. The DK & brahmin is only an example. I don't actually know what the word means in telugu or whom it is referred to in derogatory sense by telugu people, as I don't know telugu.

 

[s007bala]

Why blame Telegus alone.If you go to WEst Bengal,Maharashtra,Union Territories,UP...etc this kind of terming every s.indian as madrasi,madru.....used to exist when i was growing and i also used to retaliate by calling machair joale,paiyyanji,bharabhajay,bania....rofl....so its part of every culture like how we have blacks,whites,paleskin,nigger....etc

sb

 

[malgova.mango]

anna - lol nna enna na
same for rofl

 

[s007bala]

LOL Laugh Out Loud

ROFL Roll Over Fall Laughing

sb

 

[s007bala]

re

Brahminism is purely SPIRITUAL, Above all languages & political barriers. Adi Sankaraachaarya was from Kerala. Swaami Madhusudana saraswathi was from Bengal.
Sureswaraachaarya was from M P. & so on. Kaanchi Mahaa Swaami's mother tounge was Kannada. Do we not accept them in our Guru parampara & give them respect ?
There is not even a single Aachaarya from Tamil Brahmin community in Sringeri lineage.Are
we making any charges for that?Pl. do not fall in line with petty things like selfish politicians. Brahmins 've contributed much to all da vernacular languages in India.
R.DEVARAJAN

I think Jagath Guru Shri Jayendra Saraswathi Of Kanchi,is of a Tamizh origin.Maybe even Dayananda Saraswathi in Chennai is also Tamizh Origin....maybe there are others too.....I agree Brahmins of India,USA,Europe...etc have been and is contributing for the welfare of the world....

On Thursday, the 8th. of September, 1887, in the early hours of the morning, when the star Bharani was in the ascendant was born a boy-child in the village of Pattamadai on the bank of the river Tamraparani in South India. Sri P.S. Vengu Iyer, a revenue officer and a great Siva Bhakta (devotee of Lord Siva), and Srimati Parvati Ammal, an equally great god-fearing lady, were the fortunate parents of this child. The happy couple christened this last and third son of theirs Kuppuswamy.
http://www.dlshq.org/saints/siva.htm


sb

 

[[email protected]]

To All: S007 Bala, You are right HH Jayendra r is the one and only Tamil Brahmin of the Sankara Mutts.Rest others from other Brahmin community.More over the only reson he was draged into court. S.R.K.

 

[seenuh]

I joined very recently and the questions asked by Sri Nachinaarkiniyan (may I refer to you Sir as NK for the sake of convenience ?) are very relevant indeed. Especially for those living in Tamilnadu. As the earlier writers pointed out this issue needs a lot of dispassionate introspection.
Tamil brahmins have a very hoary past, which seems to have been forgotten by the bulk of them during the last four centuries or so. One of the most illustrious Tamil brahmins who lived in the 7th century GCE is Tirugnanasambandar of Sirkazhi, one of the four Saints of Saivism and a pioneer of Bhakti movement. How many Tamil brahmins of today even know his name I wonder. How many among the present day Tamil brahmins will even recognize the original Nachinaarkiniyar and Parimelazhagar, the great commentators of Tamil classics, among their ancestors? I know in my childhood (I am 80 now) my relatives sneering at Tamil as "Sudra baashai", and during my school days most brahmin boys will take Sanskrit as their second language, precisely for this reason (and also one could score marks more easily in Sanskrit, but non-brahmin boys did not do so).
We have by such practices and ethos alienated ourselves from Tamil and the speakers of Tamil. This one reason.
Secondly the British actively promoted antibrahminism as part of their divide and rule policy, for the simple reason that Brahmins looked down on the Mlechhas even working as their subordinates and many intellectuals were Brahmins.
Thirdly, the dominant Vellala community was competing with brahmins for positions under the British and brahmins were their main rivals in that rat race.
I can write more if anybody is interested.
Seenuh

 

[kunjuppu]

seenuh,

welcome to the forum.

it is with great regret that i state that nacchinarkiniyan does not participate in this forum anymore, thanks to some rowdy and unsavoury elements who consistently annoyed him.

we hope with increased and active moderation, none of our members in good standing will have to withdraw. i will personally give anything to have nacchi back here.

YES PLEASE, continue the discussion on this topic.

i am 100% with you, that many of the problems of TBs have been brought upon by themselves through their neanderthal attitudes.

we made the job for external forces, whether it be the british or other tamil groups, through our arrogance and refusal to look at the realities of life.

we wish to hear more from you.

thank you.

 

[RVR]

Dear Sri Seenuh ji,

Personally I have studied Tamil as a language upto college level. All my college mates from TB community studied Tamil at the college level. Presently also I am very much interested in analysing Saiva Panniru Thirumurai, Nalayira Divya Prabandham, Kamba Ramayanam, Thiruppugazh and have full collections at my home. Even in this website, lot of people are showing interest in learning Tamil Literature relating to Hindu religion.

Among vaishnavites, a sect of TB vaishnavites have accepted Nalayira Divya Prabandham as Tamil Vedham.

May be the present generation of students due to English medium education at school levels or studying other languages outside Tamilnadu may have limitations in learning the Tamil Literature. However it is the duty of the parents to impart the knowledge of Tamil Literature.

I earnestly feel Tamil and TB could not be separated.


Divide and rule policy was not only practiced by British but by our present day politicians also. I am one generation junior to you. Our generation faced these problems in education and employment and is being continued now also. We have learnt to live with this problem.

Now there is competition from several other communities as compared to one other community during your period. One thing our community people are avoiding Govt jobs as well as public sector jobs. Infact the younger generation is migrating globally for post graduate level education and employment. Even for undergraduate level education, people have started migrating to other countries and states.

Let us not bother about people who create problems for us. Let us move forward. The younger generation is much more vibrant and dynamic than probably most of us.

 

[seenuh]

Thank you Sreemankall Kunjuppu and Venkataramani.
The original Why? posed by Sri Nachinaarkiniyan raised the issue of why Brahmin baiting was/is so much more virulent in Tamil Nadu than in other places. We seem to have two identities, one as brahmins and the second as Tamils. I was trying to point out that we alienated ourselves from Tamils because , as a community, repudiated Tamil as our heritage and language. Prof. MN Srinivas, one of our pioneer sociologists (incidentally of Tamil brahmin ancestry migrated to Karnataka about three generations earlier)
propounded the concept of Sanskritization as a feature of caste mobility, a ritually and socilly "lower " caste on attaining economic power becoming more like brahmins in their customs and rituals (eg. adopting varadakshinai instead of bride price). Tamil brahmins seem to have elevated themselves by further "sanskritizing" by alienating themselves from Tamil (except possibly to read Ananda Vikatan and Kalki). Tamizh thaatha Sri UV Swaminatha Iyer in his autobiography describes how people (brahmins) condoled when he decided to study Tamil under a non-brahmin teacher the great Maha Vidwan Meenakshisundaram Pillai.
The conflict between Brahmins and others is age old as exemplified by many stories in our puranas and history. Tamil Brahmin's alienation from Tamil , I think, is far more recent although it is probably a century or two old if not more. English medium education and globalization of domicile of Tamil brahmins has further increased the distance between them and their mother tongue. I therefore do not envisage any improvement in the situation, until posssibly even others become strangers to Tamil.
Happily, I do not expect to be alive to witness that 'development'.

 

[RVR]

Sri Seenuh Ji,

TB should learn Tamil very much. Personally I don't know Sanskrit and I don't feel ashamed about it. However my interest in Tamil was always there throughout my career.

I would like to recollect an incident involving Sathguru Seshadri Swamigal (SS)and Vallimalai Sachidandha Swamigal (VS). VS was a cook in Mysore palace. His native place is Palani and he is a TB. He never learnt Music or Tamil in a formal way. Once during a festival at Palani, he listened to some tribal women (Kurathi) singing Tiruppugazh. VS got enlightened and started singing Tiruppugazh with his own music compositions. He has told subsequently that it is because his devotion to Lord Muruga he was able to master Tiruppugazh.

He met SS at Tiruvannamalai where Baghavan Ramana Maharishi also stayed. SS invoked few slokas in Sanskrit and VS explained him with equivalent Tiruppugazh songs. At the end of the conversation SS told VS that Tiruppugazh is his Mantra and adviced him to practice it only.

Ramana Maharishi has composed `Arunachala mani mala' in Tamil only

When we get so much of treasure in our mother tongue, we should encourage our youngsters to master the mother tongue

 

[[email protected]]

To Seenuh and Rv sirs, Tamiz Brahmnarkal and Tamiz erundum prikamudeyatha sonthamkal. It is compulsary that every TB younger generation should learn Tamil and their parents took inititation and march farward. s.r.k.

 

[KRS]

Guys,

Let us cool it. Let us go past this 'Tamil is great' jingoism. Yes, Tamil is a great language. Yes, if you live in TN, Tamil is a must to communicate with others.

But that is where it stops. Let me ask you all, the Tamil stalwarts (by the way, I am quite conversant with Tamil), one thing. Why is that a lot of modern words like 'computer', 'TV', 'DVD" etc., do not have any recognizable Tamil counterparts?

Let us be reasonable. The issue with the Dravidian politica parties is not that we do not think that Tamil is a great language. It is much more than that.

Regards,
KRS

 

[RVR]

Why is that a lot of modern words like 'computer', 'TV', 'DVD" etc., do not have any recognizable Tamil counterparts?

Sri KRS JI

Computer - Ganini கணிணி
TV -Tholai Katchi தொலைக்காட்சி
DVD = No idea

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

When I joined the forum I had said I would ask some questions which would make us think.

Right so you feel its up to you to educate us.

These questions concern the entire Tamil Brahmin community

First question:

1. Tamil Brahmins have an identity problem in the sense that the other Tamilians are reluctant to accept them as Tamilians.

Thank DMK for that.

Some vague reasoning given is the claim of the Brahmins to have migrated from North India.

Because there is truth to it.

( there is absolutely no historical data) This claim is made by almost all the South Indian Brahmins.

It is an oral tradition passed down by our ancestors. Our Fathers originated from North West India - Pakistan.

If you look at the Bengali Brahmins most of them claim to be from Kanyakubja or Kannuj in Uttar Pradesh.

West Bengal is in East India.

They have historical records about the migration. Most of them came during the Sena period. The Senas were South Indian Brahmins who ruled Bengal through the 11th and 12th centuries.

They even have a sub sect called Daksinatyas who have historical records to prove that they are South Indian in origin. Their religious practices are typically Smarta. They send their children to the Vedic schools in Tamil Nadu for learning Vedas.

Bengali Brahmins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All these Brahmins are accepted as Bengali.

I have not lived in Bengal or spoken to non-Brahmin Bengalis about this. So I cannot affirm that.

Then why are we not accepted as Tamilians?

Thank DMK for that.

We can not blame the political parties alone for this. During the December katcheris many a time I have wondered why only Telugu songs are being sung?

Is'nt Telugu also "Dravidian"?

Many of our Carnatic musicians seem to avoid singing in Tamil.

What evidence do you have to prove this claim?

But as a community are we committed to our Mother Tongue in general?

Sanskrit is our Father tongue. We can learn Tamil and have it as our secondary or first language from elementary to high school. The more languages the better our linguistic skills are.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

Clearly you are not a Brahmin. I do not see the purpose for such questions. But I will take the effort to respond to these "questions" to set the record straight.

Tamil Brahmins are accused of dominating the society and practicing casteism.

All Brahmins are accussed for that, nothing new.

The state which had the worst form of untouchability was Kerala.

You did your homework by reading Jewkipedia articles. I'm impressed.

The Kerala Brahmins considered even other Brahmins as untouchables.

Oh they do, do they?

Let's now push the ball back to the Brahmins by showing how one of them considers the other lower. That will teach them a lesson for considering dalits as "untouchables".

The Kerala Brahmins were feudal landlords who owned more lands than the Tamil Brahmins ever did.

With the help of Nairs, Malayalee equivalents of Naickers. Our fair skinned grey eyed High Caste buddy Periyar's relatives.

They also claim to be Aryans from North India.

I've never heard of Brahmins claiming to be "Aryans".

But the anti Brahmin movement which was founded by a Malayali had no effect there. The Brahmins are held in respect there even now.

Why is it ?

Nice one, lets ask Brahmins how they maintain their reverence so that we can figure out how to smear mud on them.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

reinvent our profile and how we project ourselves for this century.

Hello "kunjuppu". A very descent username you have. I'm sure "kunjuppu" is the first thing that comes to the mind of a Brahmin as an internet alias.

How we are to lead our lives, have been set to us(I'm referring to Brahmins ofcourse) by our Father, Brahman, in the Manusmriti.

How we need to project ourselves, is to remain as the decent and righteous people we have always been in this increasingly immoral world.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

It is also the place where Babasaheb Ambedkar started his movement.

No Brahmin refers to that dalit, as "Babasaheb".

Though the political system has seen struggle between Brahmins and others

Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are not "others". They are part of the Aryan twice born periphery.

Nice trying to plant anti-Brahmin sentiments amongst High Caste Kshatriyas and Vaishyas who were the ones that cause ill treatment towards dalits and shudras.

there is no anti-Brahmin feeling in Maharashtra like we have in Tamil Nadu.

That's why many Iyers and Iyengars have decided to move there instead.

Why is there a general anti-Brahmin feeling in Tamil Nadu?

Thank your DMK for that.

In most of the cities we have a Maharashtra Nivas, Malayali Samaj, and Bengali association

State the cities and what is a "maharashtra nivas" and "malayali samaj"?

where all the Maharashtrians, Malaylis, and Bengalis gather irrespective of caste.

Integration propoganda.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

I guess in this world if you hav a good propaganda machinery even a terror organization can thrive.

Oh believe me I'm feeling alot of that.

If you dont speak out good people would look like betrayers and traitors.

Brahmins need to speak up for our survival. We have always made sure our voices are loud and clear.

I get that from my Father.

Its our duty to uphold the values and remove the misinformation.

All praises to our Father, Brahman. We are his servants.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

I am neither as learned in our scriptures

What is that supposed to mean? Brahmins who don't know the scriptures.

Am I missing something here?

2. My lawyer uncle who took care of myself and my family after my father's untimely death was quite orthodox. But he had very good relations with our neighbors, who were both muslim and christian. In fact, he employed the neighboring Christian doctor to dliver my sisters first born, right there in our home. I still remember the day, during his son's marriage, he angrily left the wedding dinner when he saw this doctor seated a distance apart from him!

How old were you when your father died?

3. I used to have a cousin who was fairer than anyone else I have seen. But I thought her other features were not attractive.

Skin colour changes easily due to group selection. Facial structure is the slowest to evolve/change.

The Brahmin is distinguished by his sharper features not by his skin colour.

I don't know what is the real reason why TBs are not liked in their own homeland (Swamy Vivekananda Ji has said that the Tamilians are no different from the so called Northeners and carry the same Hindu genetics).

Define "Hindu genetics", is it something that one acquires when following Hindu spiritual philosophy?

the true mission of Brahminhood?

And whats that?

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

The Tamil Brahmins are called Tamil Brahmins because their mother tongue is Tamil.

"Tamil Brahmin" is an umbrella term that brackets all Brahmins in the Tamil majority speaking region.

Brahmins expanded from Ancient Indus Valley Civilization to other parts of the subcontinent. We are addressed by names given to us by populations that have arrived prior to us in the region we settled in.

We are first Tamils and then only Brahmins.

I am a Brahmin. I see only other Brahmins as my kinsmen foremost.

The Bengalis, Malayalis, Maharashtrians, Telugus, Kannadigas are first Bengalis, Malayalis, Maharashtrians, Telugus, Kannadigas and then only their caste.

For the sake of convinience.

I sometimes wonder whether the Tamil Brahmins have placed their Brahminhood before being a Tamilian.

All Brahmins place their Brahminhood before the dialect of the region they live in.

I am a Brahmin because of my Father. I am his seed. My Father gave me his surname. All praises to my Father.

Once you move out of Tamil Nadu you are classified as Tamilian whatever may be your caste.

People are always associated with the regions of their birth place.
South African Whites are known as South Africans. Australian Whites are known as Australian. That does'nt change the fact that they are all Whites and trace their origins ultimately back to Europe.

Tamil is the oldest spoken living language in the world.

Is there evidence?

I took part in the old anti-Hindi agitation ( I was on leave from a college in North India) and took a caning by the police too.

South Indian Brahmins are known for their preference towards Hindi.

We may not agree with the so called Tamil culture enunciated by some groups. But that does not make a difference.

Most of Tamil "culture" is that of Brahmins.

In Singapore, the Singaporean government emphasizes on the understanding of the culture of the 3 major races; Chinese, Malay and Tamil.

Much of the Tamil "culture" that is taught under the co cirricular activities of the students is Brahmin culture.

Culture of a region is often that of the High Society.

The first thing we have to accept and emphasize that we are Tamils first and then only Brahmins.

Integration propoganda.

Fact is you do not speak any other language and very few are conversant with Sanskrit which is not spoken anywhere.

Sanskrit is the language of my Father. All praises to my Father.

Today we the South Indians dominate India.

Sure okay.

Who wants to be called a North Indian? The cow belt states have contributed only ignorance, poverty, and backwardness to the country.

Anti-North Indian.

Unfortunately they hold the political power.

I thought you just said South Indians dominate India?

So if we want acceptance we have to unequivocally state to everyone that we are Tamilians first and then only anything else.

Integration propoganda.

Am I on the right forum?

 

[pannvalan]

I have asked several people the same question what was nagging me in my youth.

"Why only Telugu kirtanas and Sanskrit varnams are sung in medai kacheris in Tamilnadu?"

The responses I got were varied, amazing and confounding; Some of them are:

1. There are not as many kirthanas or varnams in Tamil, as compared to Telugu.

2. In Tamil, most of the sentences end with 'mei ezhuthu' (l,m,n etc.), whereas in
Telugu, it is not the case. (the ending is usually with 'u', 'ru' and 'lu'). For elaboration or elongation of a particular line or piece, thus Telugu is more amenable.

3. Telugu is a better language for music, rather than Tamil (what a sweeping statement!).

4. Tamil does not contain rich vocabulary.

5. For many situations or contexts or emotions, apt words are only in Sanskrit (not even in Telugu).

6. There are only a few vaggeyakaras (lyricists-cum-composers) in Tamil.

But, I refuted each of them, with fitting reply and reasoning.

Yes, we ourselves are not aware of the richness of our language, its hoary past and its beauty and majesty. Then, what to talk of others?

 

[sathya71]

Hello nacchinarkiniyan,

Really nice questions,

Have you read a book "thamizhaga anthanar varalaru". I jsut bought this book and reading now. It shows lot of examples how the brahmins were served the tamil society. Also explaining the false philosophy of the Arya-dravida and how the brahmins are well respected and associate with other communities in tamilnadu.

Yesterday in dinamalar I noticed an research of jeans in various communities from different states proved that there is no invasion of aryans in India and all the jeans are indeanous only. this will turn the history in right path.

The British made this separation strategy and the politicians stick with that to make the people fools and enjoying their lives.

Remember the Brahmins had major part in Indian history in shaping the society and its time to restart that work. First we have to shape us as somehow we are the responsible for the current situation.

Sathya

Second Question:

Tamil Brahmins are accused of dominating the society and practicing casteism.

The state which had the worst form of untouchability was Kerala. The Kerala Brahmins considered even other Brahmins as untouchables. This is accepted by them. The Kerala Brahmins were feudal landlords who owned more lands than the Tamil Brahmins ever did. They learnt the Vedas and still practice Mimansa rigorously. They also claim to be Aryans from North India.

But the anti Brahmin movement which was founded by a Malayali had no effect there. The Brahmins are held in respect there even now.

Why is it ?