Why so much animosity??

[prasad1]

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There was a thread started by Mr. Nacchinarkiniyan explaining the Tradition of Smarthas. Some how we seem to rehash the same topics.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11296-smartas-eclectic-hindus.html#post178770

 

[Nara]

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/11296-smartas-eclectic-hindus.html#post178770

I read through this therad, I feel Nachinar has given a biased narration of Smarthaism, which is evident from the fact he gives short shrift to the central idea of Smarthaism, namely, fidelity to Dharmashashthras. He does concede Smarthas "wanted to emphasize the role of the Smiritis/Dharmasasthras", but chides immediately, "this criticism does not take into account the seminal role played by the Smartas in strengthening Hinduism".

The seminal role they played is to inject their poisonous Varna ideology into Hinduism and make it the central aspect of it. Their contribution to Hinduism is the most visible blot on Hinduism, namely Varna system. SVs led by Ramanuja fought against this, but failed in more than one way. They not only failed to make any dent, but the SV tradition itself degenerated into something indistinguishable from Smarthaism with respect to Varna.

Smartha religion is none other than Brahminism. They did not strengthen Hinduism, they ruined it with the Varnashrama dharma doctrine. So what if they are eclectic with respect to the gods they worshiped, they were the very definition of narrow minded hierarchical exclusivity with respect to our fellow humans. Their brand of the eclectic turns the meaning of eclectic on its head.

Given the arc of history bends towards justice, for Hinduism to survive as a religion, smartaism aka Brahmanism must cease to exist.

......

p.s.
I also feel suraju got it wrong, he was confusing Sri Vaishnavam with Vaishnavam in general. The SVs are the most exclusive, for them only Sriman Narayana is supreme godhead, all other gods are demigods to be ignored. Gaudia Vaishnavas celebrate Shiva Rathri, SV's will never do that. Madhwas have no problem worshiping Vinayaka, I think, somebody correct me if I am wrong, SVs will never do that.

 

[Raji Ram]

When the born brahmin parents wish that their children will choose AT LEAST some other born brahmin (language no bar!!)

as 'soul mate' (BTW, who is that???), we are never tired of discussing about the different sub castes and sub sects! World is such!! hwell:

 

[krish44]

I read through this therad, I feel Nachinar has given a biased narration of Smathaism, which is evident from the fact he gives short shrift to the central idea of Smarthaism, namely, fidelity to Dharmashashthras. He does concede Smarthas "wanted to emphasize the role of the Smiritis/Dharmasasthras", but chides immediately, "this criticism does not take into account the seminal role played by the Smartas in strengthening Hinduism".

The seminal role they played is to inject their poisonous Varna ideology into Hinduism and make it the central aspect of it. Their contribution to Hinduism is the most visible blot on Hinduism, namely Varna system. SVs led by Ramanuja fought against this, but failed in more than one way. They not only failed to make any dent, but the SV tradition itself degenerated into something indistinguishable from Smarthaism with respect to Varna.

Smartha religion is none other than Brahminism. They did not strengthen Hinduism, they ruined it with the Varnashrama dharma doctrine. So what if they are eclectic with respect to the gods they worshiped, they were the very definition of narrow minded hierarchical exclusivity with respect to our fellow humans. Their brand of the eclectic turns the meaning of eclectic on its head.

Given the arc of history bends towards justice, for Hinduism to survive as a religion, smartaism aka Brahmanism must cease to exist.

......

p.s.
I also feel suraju got it wrong, he was confusing Sri Vaishnavam with Vaishnavam in general. The SVs are the most exclusive, for them only Sriman Narayana is supreme godhead, all other gods are demigods to be ignored. Gaudia Vaishnavas celebrate Shiva Rathri, SV's will never do that. Madhwas have no problem worshiping Vinayaka, I think, somebody correct me if I am wrong, SVs will never do that.

liked yr post . yr view that both smartha and Sv s promoted the varnashrama doctrine and made a heirarchical exclusivity with respect to other castes for brahmins appears correct. Brahmins have not been able to get over this for several centuries and continue to stick to it.But I believe that hinduism will survive and prosper inspite of this as it is still a very liberal religion if one comparse with islam and christianity where there is very little room for deviants and are rigid

 

[krish44]

When the born brahmin parents wish that their children will choose AT LEAST some other born brahmin (language no bar!!)

as 'soul mate' (BTW, who is that???), we are never tired of discussing about the different sub castes and sub sects! World is such!! hwell:

inspite of all modern day pressures TB parents still would like to remain exclusive and consider other brahmin communities only irrespective of state and language differences. Though they do not like this when confronted with such a choice, they console themself that it could have been worse.however their first choice is invariably same subsect and subcaste. IMO it might take another century and perhaps our grand children will have a slightly wider choice to exercise in selection of their mates

 

[renuka]

kasmalam endral samskithil yenna artham . tamililum sollalam neenga

Dear Krish ji,

In the Bhagavad Geeta after Arjuna goes on giving excuses right from not being able to fight with his own blood/relatives/gurus/archaryas right up to Varnasanskar etc..then Lord Krishna tells him off:

TEXT 2​

sri-bhagavan uvaca
kutas tva kasmalam idam
visame samupasthitam
anarya-justam asvargyam
akirti-karam arjuna​

SYNONYMS​

sri-bhagavan uvaca--the Supreme Personality of Godhead said;kutah--wherefrom; tva--unto you; kasmalam--dirtiness; idam--this lamentation; visame--in this hour of crisis; samupasthitam--arrived;anarya--persons who do not know the value of life; justam--practiced by; asvargyam--that which does not lead to higher planets; akirti--infamy; karam--the cause of; arjuna--O Arjuna.

TRANSLATION​

The Supreme Person [Bhagavan] said: My dear Arjuna, how have these impurities come upon you? They are not at all befitting a man who knows the progressive values of life. They do not lead to higher planets, but to infamy.

Ok next is Madras Bhasai..taken from Wikipedia:


[TABLE="class: wikitable, width: 75%"]
[TR]
[TD]Kasmalam(கஸ்மாலம்)[/TD]
[TD]Dirty[/TD]
[TD]Derived from the Sanskrit word "Kasmalam" meaning dirty, discardable[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



The meaning is same for both Sanskrit and Tamil but in Tamil when we want to fight we raise the voice tone and say "DAI KASMALAM"

 

[Raji Ram]

.... IMO it might take another century and perhaps our grand children will have a slightly wider choice to exercise in selection of their mates

Dear Sir,

One century! Brahmin parents have started accepting 'global choices' long back.

And the mother of the groom / bride usually says: 'nammaLavAkooda ippadi nallavALA irukka mAttA!'

 

[krish44]

Ok next is Madras Bhasai..taken from Wikipedia:


[TABLE="class: wikitable, width: 75%"]
[TR]
[TD]Kasmalam(கஸ்மாலம்)[/TD]
[TD]Dirty[/TD]
[TD]Derived from the Sanskrit word "Kasmalam" meaning dirty, discardable[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



The meaning is same for both Sanskrit and Tamil but in Tamil when we want to fight we raise the voice tone and say "DAI KASMALAM"[/QUOTE]
I have to acknowledge. you have researched the topic. I have to humbly accept your mastery over sanskrit and wonder at the speed at which you pulled out this sloka from Bhagwad Gita. I added to my knowledge today. Thanks

 

[renuka]

]
I have to acknowledge. you have researched the topic. I have to humbly accept your mastery over sanskrit and wonder at the speed at which you pulled out this sloka from Bhagwad Gita. I added to my knowledge today. Thanks

Dear Krish ji,

I have read Bhagavad Geeta a couple of times... therefore many verses stick to memory....but you see some verses stick to our mind forever like that verse I quoted..would anyone forget a verse that has a word like Kasmalam? Cos you start to wonder in what tone Lord Krishna would have admonished Arjuna!LOL

 

[subashviyer]

Oops he did it again!
Ash you are one crazy guy!

Friends, on the face of it, it appears non-sense, do you know 'Y...kalai' is so important for some to roll on that for getting rid off some sin. One place in Karnataka it is happening and some people make cue and cry.

By the by, forget about animosity between Iyer and Iyengar. Do you remember the poor elephant at Kancheepuram was without its facial Nama for 7 or 8 months untill the judgement came as for 6 months It should have Vadakalai Naama (U Naama) for first six months and next six months Thenkalai Naama (Y Nama)

 

[krish44]

Dear Sir,

One century! Brahmin parents have started accepting 'global choices' long back.

And the mother of the groom / bride usually says: 'nammaLavAkooda ippadi nallavALA irukka mAttA!'

Madam, Second generation tamils and others brought up in US or europe have gone for local matches abroad since they would not be able to accept anyone else. here it is only other brahmins or some NBs who are grudgingly accepted

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear Sir,

One century! Brahmin parentshave started accepting 'global choices' long back.

And the mother of the groom /bride usually says: 'nammaLavAkooda ippadi nallavALA irukka mAttA!'

Hi RR,

All these are mostly (99%) short lived!!. Talk to them in a few years they will be crying – “namba pasangalaye kalayana pannirkalam – ida yado kattingde thindadi ippa divorce pannindu vitula okangthi rukka”

As I said earlier, after the hippy generation, whites have mostly gone back to being evangelicals !!

Cheers,

 

[sravna]

Hi RR,

All these are mostly (99%) short lived!!. Talk to them in a few years they will be crying – “namba pasangalaye kalayana pannirkalam – ida yado kattingde thindadi ippa divorce pannindu vitula okangthi rukka”

As I said earlier, after the hippy generation, whites have mostly gone back to being evangelicals !!

Cheers,

Well said.

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi RR,

Everybody's true avataram will be known only when they are tested in a crisis !!. while most of us Brahmins have huge egos, you can be rest assured, they will almost always do the right thing in a crisis.

Generations of family traditions, rituals, vedic studies, following the path of Dharmam has its effect on all of us.

So many people forget all this when they see a person who is putting up a nice smile & talking to them nicely. But after the marriage, when they see the viswa-rupam, reality will come crashing !!

Cheers,

 

[sravna]

Hi RR,

Everybody's true avataram will be known only when they are tested in a crisis !!. while most of us Brahmins have huge egos, you can be rest assured, they will almost always do the right thing in a crisis.

Generations of family traditions, rituals, vedic studies, following the path of Dharmam has its effect on all of us.

So many people forget all this when they see a person who is putting up a nice smile & talking to them nicely. But after the marriage, when they see the viswa-rupam, reality will come crashing !!

Cheers,

Dear Shri Jaykay,

That is a very good point. One's true character is known only when under intense pressure. The fact you are able to handle intense pressure means you are wise. Analytical intelligence reacts badly to a crisis situation because it tries to plan its way out of the problem. Such an algorithmic approach is usually limited by the nature of a plan because in each and every step you make assumptions which may or may not work. But someone with the same extent of wisdom, instantly grasps and understands the situation in its totality and invariably acts with much greater success.

In my view the unique feature of brahmins is wisdom. So it would be degrading themselves if they allow themselves to be swayed by the western view of what intelligence is and look down upon our own past achievements made possible by formidable intuitive abilities.

 

[krish44]

success rates of marriages between almost equally educated and financially well placed entities is not high.irrespective of caste ,religion.
since interdependence is much lesser due to economic independance of both entities, what can hold it together is high amount of compromises and give and take . With pressures of families of couple and hectic worklife it is a miracle that many marriages survive. You have to be a superbeing with analytical,algorithmic and intuitive intelligence of both boy and the girl as sravna suggests. If the boy and girl know each other for a few years before marriage,it might be usefull.If families keep a safe distance from couple ,they may find it easier to work things out. aAnother suggestion is that both should not hold high pressure at the same time. alternately they can play second fiddle to each other. marriage counselling both pre and post is fast becoming a requirement when one sees the alarming rise in court cases for separation in tamilnadu . I wonder where we are heading

 

[Jaykay767]

First off, you cannot have 2 leaders in any situation. In the earlier past, roles & leadership were clear – the man worked to get the money for the household & the lady looked after the house. Each made the decision in their respective areas with some areas of consultation. Compromise was the way to go & was also strongly encouraged.

Today with equal rights, both want to take the lead in all situations leading to the breakdown of marriages. If people marry within, the num of issues will be lesser since they will follow the same religion,culture, etc.. but if they marry outside, everything becomes an issue. Compromise is strictly discouraged by all the parties & hence every issue becomes an ego problem.

Ultimately it is all about team work, someone has to lead & the other should follow. same person need not lead all the time, & vice versa but clear understanding is a must !

 

[krish44]

First off, you cannot have 2 leaders in any situation. In the earlier past, roles & leadership were clear – the man worked to get the money for the household & the lady looked after the house. Each made the decision in their respective areas with some areas of consultation. Compromise was the way to go & was also strongly encouraged.

Today with equal rights, both want to take the lead in all situations leading to the breakdown of marriages. If people marry within, the num of issues will be lesser since they will follow the same religion,culture, etc.. but if they marry outside, everything becomes an issue. Compromise is strictly discouraged by all the parties & hence every issue becomes an ego problem.

Ultimately it is all about team work, someone has to lead & the other should follow. same person need not lead all the time, & vice versa but clear understanding is a must !

I agree with you that the role in marriage in past with man providing the economic means and lady managing the home was very clear. since family was joint with elders there was a back up and counselling mechanism for marriages to remain intact. even in soured marriages ,couple continued for no one wanted to rock the boat and life outside marriage was unthinkable. however in such marriages many girls got a bad deal than men due to economic dependence on man. of course we are talking of middle class homes . In very poor class and certain other categories of workers such as house maids,cooks ,agriculture labour,construction workers etc ladies were and are also wage earners due to which ladies could call the shots and get rid of alcoholic husbands and remarried if there was a need.
With girls getting educated and holding high academic credentials in addition to high paid jobs bettering many boys, management of marriage has become more complex. The new assertive girls in high paid jobs are demanding role changes at home ,not ready to undertake menial domestic work or child rearing alone. They would also like to decide who should stay with them [whose parents] . They would like to have a say in priorities in spending money and right to support their parents. some in a perverse way would like to have a veto power incase boy wants to support his side of family.Most boys ae not able to measure up to these demands on them. Girls do not mind walking out of marriage and are not prepared to put up with any more abuses. Religion,caste,culture etc are issues .but marriages do not breakdown on that.

 

[Raji Ram]

..... Religion,caste,culture etc are issues .but marriages do not breakdown on that.

​That is what I too observe!

 

[vgane]

Dear Sir,

One century! Brahmin parents have started accepting 'global choices' long back.

And the mother of the groom / bride usually says: 'nammaLavAkooda ippadi nallavALA irukka mAttA!'

There is a competition of sorts among communities....Unfortunately we are loosing our community guys..What started as a trickle 5 decades back is galloping in leaps and bounds and our community is steadily losing the the identity

Are we willing to sit and watch as we loose our identity as Brahmins one or two centuries down the lane..If our response is a resounding yes, then let us accept all the global choices..On the other hand if we feel that our youngsters are running amok let us take action now..Let us not equivocate on this

How do we maintain our identity in the global world is the question that need to grapple with

The mami who says 'nammaLavAkooda ippadi nallavALA irukka mAttA!'
does not have an alternate...She is saying this only because of varathu Gowravam..Tickle her in privacy..She will let go her ego and rant that "Ippadi pannithale" ...Our community is without choices..In the name of modernity we are accepting all that comes our way!

Are we loosing our power of thinking and the power of wisdom?

 

[sravna]

There is a competition of sorts among communities....Unfortunately we are loosing our community guys..What started as a trickle 5 decades back is galloping in leaps and bounds and our community is steadily losing the the identity

Are we willing to sit and watch as we loose our identity as Brahmins one or two centuries down the lane..If our response is a resounding yes, then let us accept all the global choices..On the other hand if we feel that our youngsters are running amok let us take action now..Let us not equivocate on this

How do we maintain our identity in the global world is the question that need to grapple with

The mami who says 'nammaLavAkooda ippadi nallavALA irukka mAttA!'
does not have an alternate...She is saying this only because of varathu Gowravam..Tickle her in privacy..She will let go her ego and rant that "Ippadi pannithale" ...Our community is without choices..In the name of modernity we are accepting all that comes our way!

Are we loosing our power of thinking and the power of wisdom?

Dear Shri Vgane,

First it was the girls, then the boys and now the elders. But I am sure things will get better again as the ability to thrive anytime following good values is in the genes. I am of the view that the basic nature will not change , it is just the extreme pressures of time that is causing the effect of change. I am optimistic that this is a passing phase.

 

[krish44]

Dear Shri Vgane,

First it was the girls, then the boys and now the elders. But I am sure things will get better again as the ability to thrive anytime following good values is in the genes. I am of the view that the basic nature will not change , it is just the extreme pressures of time that is causing the effect of change. I am optimistic that this is a passing phase.

No one can stop change or protect our boys from the onslaught of new independent educated girls.now we have got art498 anti dowry law and anti molestation blll against married ladies abuse.
When joint family broke down to nuclear family with parents and kids alone 20-30 yrs back everyone clapped. Now couples only and no parents under the same roof. Boy and girl will decide whether they will live together on their agreed terms or call it quits.Live in relationships are not far away. Some are doing it with or without the knowledge of parents. Vgane and Sravna do not entertain hopes .TB guys have a bleak future . TB guys have no protection of caste and they have to fight on their merits to get TB girls. No reservation of TB girls for them.LOL

 

[sravna]

No one can stop change or protect our boys from the onslaught of new independent educated girls.now we have got art498 anti dowry law and anti molestation blll against married ladies abuse.
When joint family broke down to nuclear family with parents and kids alone 20-30 yrs back everyone clapped. Now couples only and no parents under the same roof. Boy and girl will decide whether they will live together on their agreed terms or call it quits.Live in relationships are not far away. Some are doing it with or without the knowledge of parents. Vgane and Sravna do not entertain hopes .TB guys have a bleak future . TB guys have no protection of caste and they have to fight on their merits to get TB girls. No reservation of TB girls for them.LOL

Dear Shri Krish44,

My view is that all the above are only aberrations and all such nonsense as live in relationships cannot last long. I am not just hopeful but sure that the Indian values will start prevailing again and may well start appealing to others and be adopted by them

 

[krish44]

Dear Shri Krish44,

My view is that all the above are only aberrations and all such nonsense as live in relationships cannot last long. I am not just hopeful but sure that the Indian values will start prevailing again and may well start appealing to others and be adopted by them

DEar Sri SV It might be a blind hope. all changes are here to stay . Elder citizens can start planning for their independent living without their children and learn to become self sufficient.They can join forums like Tamil Brahmins Forum - Brahmins World and increase their faith in Almighty as other components of happiness namely children ,friends and jobs are going to vanish for them in twilight years. TB boys can stick to their indian values and stay single

 

[vgane]

DEar Sri SV It might be a blind hope. all changes are here to stay . Elder citizens can start planning for their independent living without their children and learn to become self sufficient.They can join forums like Tamil Brahmins Forum - Brahmins World and increase their faith in Almighty as other components of happiness namely children ,friends and jobs are going to vanish for them in twilight years. TB boys can stick to their indian values and stay single

Dear Sri Krish,

I can understand your anguish...Even in Tamil Nadu, the most orthodox families are giving up to their wayward ways of their children...Interbreeding is now a fact of life....