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Why no Navagraha in Sri Vishnu Temples?

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Kbji,
You seem to have taken the mantle of "defender" of brahminism or Brahmins.
Can you define what is "brahminism" or who is a "brahmin"? Just because you find fault with your child, you do not become your "child hater". We try to shape our children's views. Similarly if a TB (what ever that means) tries to bring the misguided ways of some community TB's ways, they are not TB haters.
No one appointed you (even if they did), it is just your opinion. Just because you say so, you do not become the Oracle of India, Hindu, or brahmins.

Let us get down from the lofty pedestal and stand on the ground and see the points others are making.

Well said, Prasadji! It looks as if there is some vested interest group functioning within this forum and that it will not allow healthy criticism of whatever that group imagines to be "Brahmanism". Right now the TRP rating seems to be in favour of vaishnavism and not even to general brahmanism.
 
Kbji,
You seem to have taken the mantle of "defender" of brahminism or Brahmins.
Can you define what is "brahminism" or who is a "brahmin"? Just because you find fault with your child, you do not become your "child hater". We try to shape our children's views. Similarly if a TB (what ever that means) tries to bring the misguided ways of some community TB's ways, they are not TB haters.
No one appointed you (even if they did), it is just your opinion. Just because you say so, you do not become the Oracle of India, Hindu, or brahmins.

Let us get down from the lofty pedestal and stand on the ground and see the points others are making.

Prasadji,

Please don't indulge in straw man arguments. It is not at all difficult to turn these very same arguments against you and the so called critics.

Because you guys seem to have taken the mantle of "reformer" of Brahmanism/ brahmins whatever you take them to mean, we cannot put you in a lofty pedestal.

I do not see the difference between tagging someone a Christian or a Muslim to wiggle out an argument from tagging someone a RSS spokesperson or a self boasting orthodox brahmin to do the same.

Just like you defend the right to criticize, I defend the right to defend.

I also see a vested interest group. This group, in the name of criticism, intends to make incendiary remarks against one sect of Brahmins/ Hindus pretending to be belonging to some other sect thereby creating a wedge between Brahmins.

There is nothing wrong in calling it out.

The space is given here to create this wedge. Why can't you give space to call it out?
 
கால பைரவன்;273090 said:
Prasadji,

Please don't indulge in straw man arguments. It is not at all difficult to turn these very same arguments against you and the so called critics.

Because you guys seem to have taken the mantle of "reformer" of Brahmanism/ brahmins whatever you take them to mean, we cannot put you in a lofty pedestal.

I do not see the difference between tagging someone a Christian or a Muslim to wiggle out an argument from tagging someone a RSS spokesperson or a self boasting orthodox brahmin to do the same.

Just like you defend the right to criticize, I defend the right to defend.

I also see a vested interest group. This group, in the name of criticism, intends to make incendiary remarks against one sect of Brahmins/ Hindus pretending to be belonging to some other sect thereby creating a wedge between Brahmins.

There is nothing wrong in calling it out.

The space is given here to create this wedge. Why can't you give space to call it out?

KBji,

Well said, KBji! It looks as if there is some vested interest group functioning within this forum and that it will not allow healthy discussion of whatever that group imagines to be "reforms needed among brahmins". Right now their main target of attack(with an eye on TRP rating) seems to be vaishnavism and not even the reform-needing practices of general brahmanism. LOL.
 
From Sangomji

Right now the TRP rating seems to be in favour of vaishnavism and not even to general brahmanism.

From Vaagmiji

Right now their main target of attack(with an eye on TRP rating) seems to be vaishnavism



What is one to infer from the above 2 contradictory statements .
 
Seems to be an interesting thread with many view points presented.
I wish there was a summary for less intellectual person to understand.

1. How is existence of Vishnu established? Is it just a belief?
2. How does one know Rama and Krishna are his avatars? Is it because some Guru said so?
3. Why should one believe Krishna just because he claims I am god - It is a story after all
4. Why do believers of a God called Vishnu do not allow worship of Ganesha in their temples?

It appears that there is no conclusion to this thread that is easily understood
 
From Sangomji



From Vaagmiji





What is one to infer from the above 2 contradictory statements .

Comprehension involves several stages. You are in the first stage called the pratama pratyaksham. You need to think, ruminate, compare, see patterns etc and then comprehension will dawn on you. LOL. Even Chaos theory says there are strange attractors which are not visible and hence not comprehended at first look.

TB forum has some threads which are just chaos. LOL.
 
When I am unable to marshal arguments to counter a member on points he has presented here, I do the next best thing. Brand him, typecast him add a tag and then put him in a pigeon hole and declare to the world at large that here is a specimen from the distant past in a pigeon hole. LOL.

Well said Sir. The intellectual dishonesty in this thread is shocking. People who apparently have not even read a book - still used its name to concoct stories against a faith.
 
The person waxed eloquent that some verses of the Gita were edited by *somebody* in *some period* since they were inconvenient and antagonistic to the *Krishna Cult*. That person who claimed he had a copy - however - is as yet unable to produce a single verse to support his claim - except probably trying to boost the sales of some book. Healthy criticism bah! Vested interest group bah!
 
Hmm, this looks like your standard "belief question". Good one though.

Seems to be an interesting thread with many view points presented.
I wish there was a summary for less intellectual person to understand.

1. How is existence of Vishnu established? Is it just a belief?
2. How does one know Rama and Krishna are his avatars? Is it because some Guru said so?
3. Why should one believe Krishna just because he claims I am god - It is a story after all
4. Why do believers of a God called Vishnu do not allow worship of Ganesha in their temples?

It appears that there is no conclusion to this thread that is easily understood
 
Vaishnavas believe that bhagwan's different avataras (being 10 of them) represent the different planets in their tattwa, and thus worshiping a certain avatara innately pleases/pacifies the graha that is denoted by that avatara. Here is the list:

1. Matsyavatara : Ketu
2. Koormavatara: Saturn
3. Varahavatara : Rahu
4. Narasimhavatara: Mars
5. Vamanavatara: Jupiter
6. Parasuramavatara: Venus
7. Ramavatara: Sun
8. Krishnavatara: Moon
9. Kalki avatara: Mercury

Even Swami Vedanta Desikan has rendered his Sri Dashavatara Stotram on this basis. It is said that those who know their respective dasha/bhukti, if they choose the 2 devatas (avataras) responsible for controlling those planets as per the list given above, and recite their respective slokas 28 times each for 48 days, will enjoy relief from troublesome planetary periods.

So given the above understanding, since the avataras themselves represent and control these planets, no external worship of the planets themselves is practiced in Vaishnavam?

Thanks.
 
2. How does one know Rama and Krishna are his avatars? Is it because some Guru said so?

There is this incidence stated about the appearence of Sri Krishnavatara. As you may know, Sri Krishna's parents Devaki and Vasudeva were in the prison at the time of Sri Krishna's birth. It is said that Sri Vishnu appeared before Devaki and Vasudeva and announced that he was going to be the 8th child to grow in the womb of Devaki. Owing to the power of the lord, Devaki and Vasudeva were made to forget this incident. When Sri Krishna was born, he was born with 4 arms. Upon the request of Devaki the Supreme Lord turned Himself into an ordinary child. This shows that Sri Vishnu is Sri Krishna.

1782001_1117221931644505_8692572089428792429_n.jpg
 
Well said Sir. The intellectual dishonesty in this thread is shocking. People who apparently have not even read a book - still used its name to concoct stories against a faith.
krn sir,

I would rather consider it as a small slip. Sangomji usually writes after some homework. Intellectual dishonesty is too strong a term. I would prefer to point out the failing and move on. Just my drishti kone. No intention to lecture to you.
 
Well Sir I am not a Vaishnava. But I believe that no faith or religion deserves disrespect anywhere (and especially so in this forum) as religions arise to fulfill some historical need / purpose. That said - I am out of this.
 
I cant help wondering how come Vasudeva and Devaki were held captive but somehow Vasudeva managed to have another wife and father Balarama.

How did Vasudeva manage to escape and father another child tru another wife?

Also when they knew that Kamsa will kill their children..why did they go on and on having children only to watch them get killed?

I know contraceptives were not present then but celibacy can be an option in this case so that no child dies in the hands of Kamsa.

Why didnt Vasu and Devaki think on these lines? I dont know?? Any idea??
 
I cant help wondering how come Vasudeva and Devaki were held captive but somehow Vasudeva managed to have another wife and father Balarama.

How did Vasudeva manage to escape and father another child tru another wife?

Also when they knew that Kamsa will kill their children..why did they go on and on having children only to watch them get killed?

I know contraceptives were not present then but celibacy can be an option in this case so that no child dies in the hands of Kamsa.

Why didnt Vasu and Devaki think on these lines? I dont know?? Any idea??
Simple. When Kandharpa shoots his flower arrows every one is defenceless. Science calls it the tyranny of chemicals. LOL.
 
Simple. When Kandharpa shoots his flower arrows every one is defenceless. Science calls it the tyranny of chemicals. LOL.

Agreed..that is why only One can subdue Kandarpa.

Kama Dahana Karunakara Lingam
Tat Pranaami Sada Shiva Lingam.
 
I cant help wondering how come Vasudeva and Devaki were held captive but somehow Vasudeva managed to have another wife and father Balarama.

How did Vasudeva manage to escape and father another child tru another wife?

Also when they knew that Kamsa will kill their children..why did they go on and on having children only to watch them get killed?

I know contraceptives were not present then but celibacy can be an option in this case so that no child dies in the hands of Kamsa.

Why didnt Vasu and Devaki think on these lines? I dont know?? Any idea??

We (Hindus) are poor forecasters. Our ancestors were no exception. They would have thought that India, in particular, and world, at large, will remain same even after thousands of years. Unfortunately, it is not so. Hence, those Hindu believers, who want logical explanation for some queries, are being looked down either as rationalists or non-Hindus. This situation will definitely change after the advent of Social Medias, which is a welcoming sign.

Critical analysis will only strengthen the religion.
 
Well said Sir. The intellectual dishonesty in this thread is shocking. People who apparently have not even read a book - still used its name to concoct stories against a faith.

The person waxed eloquent that some verses of the Gita were edited by *somebody* in *some period* since they were inconvenient and antagonistic to the *Krishna Cult*. That person who claimed he had a copy - however - is as yet unable to produce a single verse to support his claim - except probably trying to boost the sales of some book. Healthy criticism bah! Vested interest group bah!

Shri KRN ji,

I have not run away, I am here only. As I said earlier, typing is difficult for me and that is the main reason for my inability to post the 45 verses in question here. I have no interest in promoting the book or its sales, but I thought that since you appeared to be very much conversant with almost the entire Sanskrit literature, and since you said you were posting from a smartphone, etc., it may not be difficult for you to buy a copy of that book (Rs. 350/=) and make use of all the info. available in it.

That was when I found you quoting that verse from M. Bh. wrongly in the Vaikuntha thread and thought that either your knowledge of sanskrit is shallow, like myself, or that you lack the metrical sense to realize that one Maatra was missing in that verse quoted in the post. I do not honestly think that I had argued that the BG was edited just to remove any anti-krishna material; if you can point out such post or posts of mine, I shall be very thankful. Anyway, I do not believe that our scriptures are some kind of sacrosanct things and that they are in any way different from the literary works of any later writer/poet/dramatist—from Bhasa to our current generation including Jeyamohan. I do believe therefore that all our scriptures including our vedas (whose accuracy was sought to be maintained by the "vikruti" readings, including the Jata parayanams, could have been altered, at some time or another.

In respect of BG all that I wanted to say was that the eliminaion of 45 verses could not have been without purpose; what that purpose is, I did not say - that is what I think at least. I wrote, "Hence, it is very plausible that 45 verses had been 'edited out' for some reason or the other during the course of time."

Talking of intellectual dishonesty, one of my collegemates took up Sanskrit, to become a very well-known sanskrit scholar later on. Though an ignoramus in sanskrit myself, I thus came to know about Sastri, Bhasa's works, etc. I also know that even now those 15 plays are not accepted as Bhasa's works by many scholars including some from Kerala itself. When, in such circumstances, you made an obfuscating statement like "After over 2 millennia Bhasa¡®s works are found preserved intact (Quotations by later dramatists found matching) in Kerala in the remote South - despite those works not following any of the later rules of dramaturgy.This shows the level of accurate transmission and preservation of ancient texts in the South. Editions if locally made would have been caught out.", I realized that it would be impossible to carry on any honest discussion with you, because you seem to consider your opponent as a fool and that you can go on making any kind of statement in order to defend your orthodox views. (Lying for God's sake!)

That was when I thought it best to follow the saying xxxx கண்டால் தூர விலகு, even though I had earlier appreciated you "Shri KRN ji, you are very learned and it is a pleasure interacting with you." Hope I have clarified my position.
 
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Sir
You said you have a copy of the book and I asked you to post here a sample of the verses - Not the whole 45. Thats all you have to do.

Books critiquing the Gita are printed by the sackful. You said these verses prove the below assertion of yours. Why do you ask me to blindly believe your assertion and spend Rs 350 buying a book?

Heres ur assertion and why I spent time arguing with you.

“Some how this Bhagavadgita was introduced, at some stage, into the lengthy M. Bh. with a view to launching the folk-hero Krishna into superhuman status, viz., the viswarupam episode so as to help the objectives of spreading krishna worship which was fast gaining popularity even with the higher castes. Harivamsam and bhagavatam, the two seminal texts of Krishna-cult were also rolled out to bolster krishna's avatar status. And then some people might have critically gone through the Gita and edited out those slokas which were"inconvenient" or antagonistic to theemerging philosophies.“
 
Sir
I never claimed any Sanskrit scholarship for myself. I didnt notice that one matra was missing in the sloka I quoted - until now. Yes I am using a smartphone for posting.

I did learn Sanskrit in school and Bhasa¡®s plays were part of the curriculum. To my knowledge these plays are accepted are Bhasa¡®s. Thats why I asked you to state your reasons for disputing them. Why dont you come out with proof for your assertions and fiction? Elsewhere you have been making statements like *ideas like Prapatti in our ithihasas have led to the downfall of the country*. Which again you never proved nor replied to the counterexamples I gave.
 
Bhasa‘s plays like Swapnavasavadattam Dutavakyam and Madhyamavyayogam have been part of Kerala text books for several decades.
 
Sri Sangom Sir
Thank you for the appreciation. As I have been slow in acknowledging it please accept my apologies. I do appreciate your erudition and seniority and mentioned it earlier in this thread itself. If my words have hurt you I apologise. I dont belong to any vested interest group here as you seem to indicate... nor am I against anyone. All I know of the people posting here is from what read in the past 2-3 Weeks.


I believe spirituality transcends time. I dont agree with the view that *anything in the Vedas* is more spiritual or right-er while anything in the puranas or MBH should by default be *less right* or polluted or leads to our downfall. I do admire the works for their literary beauty as well. Its just that when you make assertions without proof I dont have much value addition. Hope you cant deny that I tried my best in giving good counter examples at least a few of which might have added value.
 
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Sir
You said you have a copy of the book and I asked you to post here a sample of the verses - Not the whole 45. Thats all you have to do.

Books critiquing the Gita are printed by the sackful. You said these verses prove the below assertion of yours. Why do you ask me to blindly believe your assertion and spend Rs 350 buying a book?

Heres ur assertion and why I spent time arguing with you.

“Some how this Bhagavadgita was introduced, at some stage, into the lengthy M. Bh. with a view to launching the folk-hero Krishna into superhuman status, viz., the viswarupam episode so as to help the objectives of spreading krishna worship which was fast gaining popularity even with the higher castes. Harivamsam and bhagavatam, the two seminal texts of Krishna-cult were also rolled out to bolster krishna's avatar status. And then some people might have critically gone through the Gita and edited out those slokas which were"inconvenient" or antagonistic to theemerging philosophies.“

Shri KRN Sir,

I said "inconvenient or antagonistic to the emerging philosophies. What I had in mind was the post-upanishadic developments like Vaishnavam, Bhakti, etc., which did not synchronize with the advaitic viewpoint of the veda/s and upanishads and not opinions against the vaishnava or krishna cults. Does it not follow that it would have been foolish to create any anti-krishna, anti-vaishnavism or anti-bhakti cult message out of the BG which had already formed part of M.Bh. which was a pro-krishna, pro-bhakti itihasa although it does not project krishna as the divine but as a human prince?

I can still type out a few slokas everyday, out of the 45 omitted slokas, but having seen and having had to read your verbal attacks, I don't think it will be any use discussing further.
 
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Sir
I never claimed any Sanskrit scholarship for myself. I didnt notice that one matra was missing in the sloka I quoted - until now. Yes I am using a smartphone for posting.

I did learn Sanskrit in school and Bhasa¡®s plays were part of the curriculum. To my knowledge these plays are accepted are Bhasa¡®s. Thats why I asked you to state your reasons for disputing them. Why dont you come out with proof for your assertions and fiction? Elsewhere you have been making statements like *ideas like Prapatti in our ithihasas have led to the downfall of the country*. Which again you never proved nor replied to the counterexamples I gave.

Sir,

I don't know whether you studied in Kerala school/s. As you may know, the 15 plays found out by Shastri from two persons (not one) written in old Malayalam script and in palm leafs, the mss dated as some 200 or at best 300 years old, were used by the Chakyars for their Koodiyaattam performances. Since the plays were printed and published under the royal authority of the then reigning king Moolam Thirunal Rama Varma, who was a very autocratic ruler, there was no question of anyone within Travancore state expressing any view or opinion against the plays being original works of Bhasa only!

However English and even Indian scholars like V.S. Sukthankar, and even Pisharoti, Kunhan Raja etc., had doubts as to whether these were original Bhasa's works or some later adaptation for the limited purpose of Koodiyaattam. And, as I said, when there is not even one complete drama of Bhasa, universally acclaimed to be Bhasa's original work, how can it be said that all these 15 plays are as written by Bhasa only and that the ancient indian accuracy in transmission was so perfect that all these works travelled from central india to a remote village of Kerala, after more than 2000 years from Bhasa's time without even an error in comma or word?

Now, coming to Prapatti, itihasas etc., you had, on very similar lines made references to Lalitaditya Muktapida (8th. century) of the Kashmir's Karkotaka dynasty. When the bhakti cult itself started spreading at around this time, do you think it is like an atom bomb to make its presence felt within seconds over such a vast territory as from old Tamil Land to the north-western end of Kashmir? Either you think you can prove your point by such irrelevant propositions or else you consider the opposite party as an ignoramus. That was why I distanced myself.

When we talk about items like bhakti cult etc., it goes without saying that some period of time, a few centuries, will be required for it to spread and subdue the minds of the people irrevocably. If you look at the spread of Advaita, Visishtadvaita, etc., philosophies, you will find that neither Shankra nor Ramanuja could convert the whole lot of people as followers in one day, weeks, months, years, etc., and that it was a slow process. Hope this point is clear.
 
Sir
As you asked - I have reproduced your earlier statements wherein you said some slokas are missing.from the present version of the Gita and the reason you ascribed to the so-called editing. Whether or not to post a sample from the 45 here is your decision.

I dont want to enter into another verbal joust but I cant help asking. Have you ever read the MBH fully. It is simply a huge assortment of philosophies - often mutually contradictory - and the story part is very thin - and the part occupied by Krishna is much thinner. If there is one Vishnu Sahasranama in it that we know of - by the same token there are TWO siva sahasranamas in it. There is hardly any mention of Krishnas adolescence in it - what to say about the rest pf your message. To learn about Krishnas adolescence you need to look into Harivamsam and the puranas. But then you would still keep inventing your fictional accounts.
 
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