Why are whipping up fear and hysteria?

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

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Why are we whipping up fear and hysteria?

I have been reading up the many threads about conversions to other
religions especially Christianity.

The British ruled India for about 200 years. The colonial rulers were
always followed by Christian missionaries. The British encouraged
conversion. They were always talking about the conversion of the
heathens. They forced the rulers of the Indian states also to give a
favorable treatment to Christians. The missionaries wrote hundreds of
books denigrating Hinduism. You can find some of these forgotten books
in the Internet archives. They give an insight into the society as it
was 100/150 years back.

Hinduism and Hindus were also more vulnerable in those days. The
missionaries used our social system to encourage conversion. For
example in the Namboothiri community in Kerala, only the first son had
the right to get married. The other sons were prohibited from
marrying. The Christians used this to get maximum converts especially
in the Kottayam region from this community. The community woke up and
changed the rules. But by that time the damage was already done and a
large number of Namboothiris had already got converted.

The practice of untouchability was a heaven-sent gift for the
Christians. This more than any other Hindu practice aided conversion.
The British forced the community leaders to give a better status to
the converts. For example a Christian could sit in the Thinnnai of a
Brahmin's house where untouchables were not even allowed to enter the
village. Of course the missionaries were not successful in removing
these prejudices completely and the caste system got absorbed into
Christianity. That is another story.

The biggest weapon in the hands of the British for conversion was
famine relief. Whenever there was a famine, the relief was provide
through the missionaries who used this for conversion.

But how successful were the Christian missionaries? India was a
failure for them. During the colonial rule the Christian missionaries
wiped out all the indigenous religions in Africa, and other places.
But they could not succeed with Hinduism and Islam. The Hindus in
Mogul India had resisted Islam. Compare this with what happened in
Bosnia. The aristocracy in Bosnia during the Ottoman Sultan rule
converted in order to retain control over their lands. But this did
not happen in other neighboring states like Montenegro.

Looking back at the history of India, Hindus have successfully
resisted for centuries the Christianity and Islam in spite of their
being the ruled by Christians and Muslims. It is not the organized
religion which helped them. In fact the organised religion with their
caste and sect based religion never bothered to raise their voice
against Christianity. It is the individual Hindu who resisted
conversion and refused to give up his/her age old traditions/beliefs.

Now we are a free country with a democratically elected government.
Hindus are economically better off than ever before. The ideas of
Hinduism has spread all over the world and has caught on all over the
world especially in U.S.

Why are whipping up this fear? Because the elections are near we find
political parties whipping up old fears to get votes. Let us not be
taken in by this propaganda. We should be vigilant and guard our
traditions without whipping up hysteria.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,

Just because it has been so cannot not be inferred to mean that it would always be so...

The threat of conversion is for real... though we may pride at our resistance for the past number of centuries, the missionaries are subtly and covertly doing their work and are going about with their business as usual... if not this way then the other...

Democracy has not changed anything... it is only a namesake... in reality we are ruled by vested interests... that is why we see groupism all around...

I do not think that anybody is hysterical around here; but are merely crying for our people to remain bound to their native culture by virtue of its inherent goodness... I see nothing wrong in that.

It is time for us to act against these missionary activities... we need a movement - one to unite all the native cultures... and it should be done from the micro to the macro... the various groups should unite within themselves, then amongst them to erase these conversion activities once and for all...

Regards,
Seshadri

 

[tbs]

hi all,
This is beautiful topic to discuss........i like to say.......SOME PRESIDENT
OF AFRICAN NATION MENTIONED ABOUT BRITISHERS....I GUESS KENYAN/
ZIMBAVE.....HE SAID THAT ...BRITISHERS CAME TO AFRICA WITH BIBLE.... THEY HANDED OVER THE BIBLE TO LOCALS AND TOOK LAND FROM
THEM.... this is the reality.......IN INDIA I HEARD THAT.......
SOME VICEROY TOLD ABOUT INDIANS TO THE QUEEN VICTORIA......
INDIA IS VERY DIFFICULT TO CONVERT......BECAUSE HINDUISM IS
VERY DEEP/STRONGHOLD IN INDIA.SO THEY BRAIN THROUGH ENGLISH
EDUCATION............ i heard that SURAT(GUJARAT) IS PROSPEROUS
THAN LONDON.. more GDP than LOndon GDP...........this is history..........
still our mentality not changed much.......but TIME WILL PROPER
ANSWER.....

REGARDS
tbs

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Sri Seshadri,

With all the so called vested interests, it is too far fetched to
believe that we are in worse position than the days of Aurangazeb,
Malik Kafur, Warren Hastings or Lord Curzon. Are we that naive?

Just because the political parties implemented reservations, it does
not mean that there is no Democracy. Most of the people in India
believe (or have been led to believe) that reservations are the
panacea for all ills plaguing the communities. Democracy in India is
thriving. But Democracy has its own drawbacks. Plato had to say quite
a few things about it. The Communists called it the "Tyranny of the
Majority." Indians do seem to prefer dynastic rule. So we have the
Gandhi dynasty, Karunanithi dynasty etc. But with all the drawbacks
Democracy is the only system suited for India.

The missionaries have the zeal to propagate the message of God. This is
considered to be the duty of all Christians. The threat from
Christianity has been there for more than 200 years now. We have
recognized it. What have we done about it? Swami Vivekananda was the
first Hindu leader to recognize the threat and act to counter it.
Remember his Arise and Awake call to all Hindus. He founded the
Ramakrishna Mission for that purpose. His example was followed by
other Hindu teachers/organizations. We now have Sivananda Mission,
Chinmaya mission, and Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan to name a few. Older
organizations like Arya Samaj have also joined in.

These organizations have done yeomen service in countering the
Christian missionaries. The Christina Missionaries are dedicated,
zealous people. They are not afraid of dying for the cause. They have
endured untold hardships in their work. The Christian missionaries
depend on community work for promoting their cause. They organize the
community and strive for the common good. This aspect of their work
was recognized by Swami Vivekananda. He wanted the Hindus to emulate
it. That is why he declared

Service to Humanity is Service to God.

We need dedicated people who will work for the welfare of the
community. In the last 150 years India has produced countless such men
who have dedicated themselves to the welfare of their fellow human
beings. This is how we counter the Christian missionaries. Not by
rabble rousing, Not by creating unnecessary fear and hysteria, Not by
attacking churches and missionaries, Not by passing laws banning
conversions.

A small aside. We in India seem to believe that by passing a law we
can change society. Look at the laws against dowry, Child marriage,
atrocities against Dalits and recently against smoking. But have any
of these things disappeared? We still have dowry deaths and the dowry
system is thriving. Child marriages do take place and the atrocities
against Dalits continue unabated.

Running educational institutions, hospitals and orphanages are the
activities which have brought a lot of goodwill and continue to bring
a lot of goodwill for the Christian missionaries. That is why in the
last 60 years Hindu organizations have been in the forefront in
starting schools and hospitals. Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan was started by
K.M. Munshi specifically for the purpose of education. Efforts have
been made by Ramakrishna Mission, Chinmaya Mission, Arya Samaj and a
host of others. You have only look around the city of Chennai to see
the number of Good Hindu schools we have today. Most of these did not
exist at the time of Independence. Hindus have not been that
successful in starting Hospitals. Still hospitals like Sivananda
mission hospital, VHS, Sankara Netralaya have proved that Hindus also
care about their community.

Other than these activities, the most important work is the upliftment
of the rural and tribal communities. Ramakrishna Mission has been doing
excellent service in this. Are you aware that Ramakrishna Mission is
involved in extensive tribal welfare programs in the North Eastern
region. This was started long time back at the specific request of one
of our Congress Prime Ministers. Now they have been joined by people
from other organizations also.

R.S.S has been in the forefront in this kind of work. They have
dedicated volunteers who have proved themselves time and again at the
time of any crisis.

Have a look at Vivekananda Kendra.

http://www.vkendra.org/

Once in year or so they come out with an advertisement calling for
volunteers who are dedicated. They do not promise riches but
satisfaction in having served your country and community. They are
working in the North eastern region also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivekananda_Kendra

What we need is hundreds of such organizations.

The Christian missionaries can not wished away. They will not go away.
In Bengal the Marxists ensured that they were not given extension of
their Visas and deported many of them. But now we have Indian
Christian missionaries who are equally dedicated and in fact are more
aggressive. The only way to counter them is to ensure that we the
Hindus serve the needs of the Poor and Downtrodden members of our
society.

Jai Hind !!!

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,

It is not the mode that is referred to here, rather the intent… we would be naïve if we were to compare acts… hence your comparison is not relevant here.

I said that democracy has not changed anything; it should not be construed to mean that there is no democracy. Democracy has been mis-utilised in India and as a result it would be unfair to say that it is thriving; maybe thriving in a superficial sense but the spirit is lost.

Yes, I agree with you that by caring for the needs of the poor, we could somewhat instil faith in the poor by making them aware of the genuineness of our concerns for them.

But that is only one part – namely of strengthening our fort. We cannot remain contented just by mere defences alone, for there would be a time when defences may not be properly maintained. So we have to have a "poison-pill", which is possible only through an enactment. But one cannot do that by having pseudo-seculars at the helm of affairs.

Hence the emphasis is on unity of hindu groups; if united, we could persuade the party elect to enforce certain regulations against conversions (or to put a blanket ban on conversion).

All parts of the body have to grow proportionately for it to function properly… Similarly, one particular mode of action (namely service or unity) alone would not suffice – we need to be united, to serve the needy, to uphold our culture and tradition, and to stop external threats to remain cohesive as a society.

In one way, I would not condemn the attacks on the churches and missionaries for it is but a instinctive group reaction and the christian missionaries have invited it upon themselves. This is what society is; and when the missionaries are prepared to sweep the gullible "soft targets" off their feet with talks of true faith, happiness, peace, security and equality (of course with the accompanying monetary benefits), they should also accept the other side of the coin.

It is that age of "pagutharivu" politicians who can inaugurate a movie on the apostle thomas, but asks whether Rama is an qualified engineer to build a bridge. And there are people to believe it also. Defend and attack should be the strategy, just not defence alone.

I was an active swayamsevak and have participated in many shakas and some camps in and around coimbatore; it is not enough if we serve – we need political will too (here am talking with particular reference to TN)… one of our active worker (from our area) was murdered by islamic fanatics… and nothing happened; "pagutharivu" politics at work again! Now the zeal is lost and who wants to become the patron? You see that is the reason why I say we have to have a united face – divisive politics is the norm of the day…

Why not a secular India which has abolished all forms of conversions? At least, that would put an end to the missionary actions. Why are hindu groups reluctant to voice this?

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Still hospitals like Sivananda mission hospital, VHS, Sankara Netralaya have proved that Hindus also care about their community.

Shakara Netralaya origins began with a call for service from Sri Mahaperiaval. Am wondering why Dr.S.Badrinath is not mentioned in the list of Iyers in the wiki article in the social service section. He is a truly amazing person. Plus Hindu Mission Hospital, chennai also offers great service.

Sesh-ji,
Why not a secular India which has abolished all forms of conversions? At least, that would put an end to the missionary actions. Why are hindu groups reluctant to voice this?

It just is not possible. It would require being stable, firm and polite at the individual level on a long-term basis. But when it comes to the poor, we have to consider the empty stomach and desolate existance. As long as poverty exists, aggressive-missionaries will take advantage of it.

Then there are people who convert out of sheer faith. Putting a blanket ban wud amount to us being intolerant and would be very unfair to such people who convert for faith. But personally, i do feel at some stage of the other, such people (even after a few generations) will turn back to the hindu faith or keep both - faith in Christ as well as faith in what Sanatan offers.

 

[KRS]

Dear SS Ji,

I find your response to Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji rather cavalier and not consistent with the logic you seem to profess to base your arguments elsewhere.

Even your first statement where you say "It is not the mode that is referred to here, rather the intent… we would be naïve if we were to compare acts… hence your comparison is not relevant here" seems illogical.

Let me explain.

The issue is 'Unity of Hindus'. But then, what are we talking about here? Political unity, Religious unity, Social unity, or Philosophical unity?

Without Social unity, the Political unity can not be had. Religious unity can not be acheived unless we agree to disagree on the Philosophical front. If this is not acheived, then there will be no Social unity.

For example, I am still hearing some Hindus supporting the Varna system and thereby supporting the current Jathi system on philosophical grounds. This stance will never lead to the Social unity, because about 75% of our fellow Hindus believe today that the upward Jathis from their own are not valid(the downward Jathis are a different issue!). We can talk about the 'dravidian' philosophy and the spurious effect of DK on our lives in TN till we are blue in our face - but the fact remains that the TN Brahmin community is viewed today by a majority of TN folks as an irrelevant bunch who do not have any say in their affairs and more importantly, who are not allowed to have any say in their affairs.

It is not a very simple task to unite the 'Hindus'. Only by creating the organizations that Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji cites, we even have a small chance to acheive the results for a majority's participation in the democracy.

But, all in all, I totally agree with Sri Naachi. Democracy is the perfect system for India. Democracy demands, expects and above all adjusts without violence.

Regards,
KRS

Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,

It is not the mode that is referred to here, rather the intent… we would be naïve if we were to compare acts… hence your comparison is not relevant here.

I said that democracy has not changed anything; it should not be construed to mean that there is no democracy. Democracy has been mis-utilised in India and as a result it would be unfair to say that it is thriving; maybe thriving in a superficial sense but the spirit is lost.

Yes, I agree with you that by caring for the needs of the poor, we could somewhat instil faith in the poor by making them aware of the genuineness of our concerns for them.

But that is only one part – namely of strengthening our fort. We cannot remain contented just by mere defences alone, for there would be a time when defences may not be properly maintained. So we have to have a "poison-pill", which is possible only through an enactment. But one cannot do that by having pseudo-seculars at the helm of affairs.

Hence the emphasis is on unity of hindu groups; if united, we could persuade the party elect to enforce certain regulations against conversions (or to put a blanket ban on conversion).

All parts of the body have to grow proportionately for it to function properly… Similarly, one particular mode of action (namely service or unity) alone would not suffice – we need to be united, to serve the needy, to uphold our culture and tradition, and to stop external threats to remain cohesive as a society.

In one way, I would not condemn the attacks on the churches and missionaries for it is but a instinctive group reaction and the christian missionaries have invited it upon themselves. This is what society is; and when the missionaries are prepared to sweep the gullible "soft targets" off their feet with talks of true faith, happiness, peace, security and equality (of course with the accompanying monetary benefits), they should also accept the other side of the coin.

It is that age of "pagutharivu" politicians who can inaugurate a movie on the apostle thomas, but asks whether Rama is an qualified engineer to build a bridge. And there are people to believe it also. Defend and attack should be the strategy, just not defence alone.

I was an active swayamsevak and have participated in many shakas and some camps in and around coimbatore; it is not enough if we serve – we need political will too (here am talking with particular reference to TN)… one of our active worker (from our area) was murdered by islamic fanatics… and nothing happened; "pagutharivu" politics at work again! Now the zeal is lost and who wants to become the patron? You see that is the reason why I say we have to have a united face – divisive politics is the norm of the day…

Why not a secular India which has abolished all forms of conversions? At least, that would put an end to the missionary actions. Why are hindu groups reluctant to voice this?

Regards

 

[tbs]

hi all,
we have to be more aggrresive activities in the grass roots of society.
IF WE CAN PROVIDE ROTI./KAPDA/ AUR MAKKAN TO EVERY PART OF
THE COMMUNITY.... then we can success in community....i am
aware of north eastern states........they are called seven sisters....
only in arunachal pradesh/manipur hindu missionaries are doing welll.
special thanks to sri ramakrishna mission/ hare krishna movement
(ISKCON) ...all other tribal states are occupied by christian miisionaries.
WE HAVE TO PROVIDE MEDICAL/EDUCATIONAL/ECNOMICAL FACILITIES
AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO OUR COMMUNITIES.then we may succed
from christian/muslim conversions.



REGARDS
tbs

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Dear SS Ji,

Dear KRS ji,

I find your response to Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji rather cavalier and not consistent with the logic you seem to profess to base your arguments elsewhere.

I do not know in what sense you have understood my post; we are speaking over a forum and the literals may not always be understood in the original sense in which the poster intended... So, a humble request - It would be better if you could get an explanation of the intent before colouring a post with your adjectives...

Again what is not consistent to you may be consistent to me.


Even your first statement where you say "It is not the mode that is referred to here, rather the intent… we would be naïve if we were to compare acts… hence your comparison is not relevant here" seems illogical.

???? Logic is but a state of perception; if you refute my logic, please explain your stance. Simply pasting my statement and stating that it is illogical seems rather crude.

Here am trying to convey that though personalities, the method of oppression, etc might have changed, the basic intent of the other religions remains the same.

Let me explain.

The issue is 'Unity of Hindus'. But then, what are we talking about here? Political unity, Religious unity, Social unity, or Philosophical unity?

Of course when you say "hindus", the broad uniting base is religion!! That is implicit.

When filtered down, I am talking about cultural unity... so while there may be differences in philosophies, political preferences & social setup, the linking element is religion...

Without Social unity, the Political unity can not be had. Religious unity can not be acheived unless we agree to disagree on the Philosophical front. If this is not acheived, then there will be no Social unity.

I disagree with this statement; to attain a major goal, minor goals would be ignored by the people until the objective is attained... It is like all Indians bonding together when India is attacked; but in peaceful times, we tend to quarrel amongst us. So, the concept of unity itself is a floating one - we need a outsider to keep us united.

For example, I am still hearing some Hindus supporting the Varna system and thereby supporting the current Jathi system on philosophical grounds. This stance will never lead to the Social unity, because about 75% of our fellow Hindus believe today that the upward Jathis from their own are not valid(the downward Jathis are a different issue!). We can talk about the 'dravidian' philosophy and the spurious effect of DK on our lives in TN till we are blue in our face - but the fact remains that the TN Brahmin community is viewed today by a majority of TN folks as an irrelevant bunch who do not have any say in their affairs and more importantly, who are not allowed to have any say in their affairs.

No comments

It is not a very simple task to unite the 'Hindus'. Only by creating the organizations that Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji cites, we even have a small chance to acheive the results for a majority's participation in the democracy.

Yes, agreed. My point further adds on to it that we simply cannot be complacent by creating organizations... people would just enjoy the benefits and ignore the values... that is how it would turn into! So unless there is a blanket ban on conversions, the other measures would not be to much effect...

But, all in all, I totally agree with Sri Naachi. Democracy is the perfect system for India. Democracy demands, expects and above all adjusts without violence.

The point here is not about whether we should have a democracy or dictatorship, rather about the means to stop conversion...

Regards,
KRS

Regards,
Seshadri

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Sri Seshadri,

In one way, I would not condemn the attacks on the churches and
missionaries for it is but a instinctive group reaction and the
Christian missionaries have invited it upon themselves. This is what
society is; and when the missionaries are prepared to sweep the
gullible "soft targets" off their feet with talks of true faith,
happiness, peace, security and equality (of course with the
accompanying monetary benefits), they should also accept the other
side of the coin.

I am surprised that you can condone mob violence directed against
innocent Christians. Did they deserve to die because they became
Christians? Hinduism does not believe in violence. Such violent acts
only bring shame and dishonor to Hinduism and India. The Missionaries
are always prepared to lay down their lives. You might have read
stories of Missionaries being eaten by the cannibal tribes of Africa.
The Christian father who was burned earlier in Orissa did not come to
India for money. He came to preach the message of God. Missionaries
worship martyrs. So the threat of violence will not deter the
Missionaries from their doing what they believe to be God's work. All
violent acts are shameful and any violence against other religions
will only bring shame on the Hindus. According to CNN reports a number
of Hindus were also killed in Orissa and temples razed. Of course our
press conveniently omits such happenings.

I am not a member of the R.S.S. Though I do appreciate their work in
many fields I do not subscribe to their ideology. The only
organizations I have some connection are the Sri Ramakrishna Math and
Sankara Math. Even here I do not concur with many views of these
organizations.

Now about the law for banning conversions. Such a law would be against
the fundamental rights enshrined in our constitution. Even if BJP
comes to power with an absolute majority (highly unlikely) they will
not pass such a law which would be thrown out by the courts. The
erstwhile Soviet Union had banned all religious activities and
implemented the ban ruthlessly for a long time. But did it eliminate
Christianity or Islam? No. Let us learn from history. You can not
tackle the Christian Missionaries by passing laws.

Again why are we attacking Christianity? Hinduism accepts all
religions as valid paths. Hinduism is a religion where all good ideas
are accepted. We have in the last 200 years borrowed a number of good
ideas form Christianity. The Christians in India have taken a lot of
ideas from the Hindus. I know of Christian priests who know the
Bhagavad Gita well enough to quote from it in their Congregational
lectures.

So please let us stop this hate campaign which does not do us proud.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,

I am surprised that you can condone mob violence directed against
innocent Christians. Did they deserve to die because they became
Christians? Hinduism does not believe in violence. Such violent acts
only bring shame and dishonor to Hinduism and India. The Missionaries
are always prepared to lay down their lives. You might have read
stories of Missionaries being eaten by the cannibal tribes of Africa.
The Christian father who was burned earlier in Orissa did not come to
India for money. He came to preach the message of God. Missionaries
worship martyrs. So the threat of violence will not deter the
Missionaries from their doing what they believe to be God's work. All
violent acts are shameful and any violence against other religions
will only bring shame on the Hindus. According to CNN reports a number
of Hindus were also killed in Orissa and temples razed. Of course our
press conveniently omits such happenings.

I do not agree with you - the violence is a reaction which is inherent of the activities of the missionaries. I am not saying that I would appreciate it, but I would not also condemn it.

I will not comment on whether they deserved to die because of their faith...

I am not a member of the R.S.S. Though I do appreciate their work in
many fields I do not subscribe to their ideology. The only
organizations I have some connection are the Sri Ramakrishna Math and
Sankara Math. Even here I do not concur with many views of these
organizations.

No comments.

Now about the law for banning conversions. Such a law would be against
the fundamental rights enshrined in our constitution. Even if BJP
comes to power with an absolute majority (highly unlikely) they will
not pass such a law which would be thrown out by the courts. The
erstwhile Soviet Union had banned all religious activities and
implemented the ban ruthlessly for a long time. But did it eliminate
Christianity or Islam? No. Let us learn from history. You can not
tackle the Christian Missionaries by passing laws.

Different views... I cannot comment on this...

Again why are we attacking Christianity? Hinduism accepts all
religions as valid paths. Hinduism is a religion where all good ideas
are accepted. We have in the last 200 years borrowed a number of good
ideas form Christianity. The Christians in India have taken a lot of
ideas from the Hindus. I know of Christian priests who know the
Bhagavad Gita well enough to quote from it in their Congregational
lectures.

So please let us stop this hate campaign which does not do us proud.

When attacked, one has to retaliate and it may be so that some of the recourse may not be to everyone's liking... but it is so...

Just to say that I would not spread hate, I cannot become Mr goody goody and simply rely on the goodness of beings to live and let live...

One has to be aggressive when the hour demands it... but please do not intrepret it to "take up arms or to brandish clubs and smash the living daylights out of the missionaries".

 

[hariharan1972]

Nacchinarkiniyan sir,

Welcome back after a hiatus.

I read your posts under this thread with interest as also that of KRS ji and Mr Sesh.

My perspectives on this issue are as under :

a) Let me first assure you sir, that there is no 'real' mass hysteria. Today as we live in the era of 24 x 7 news coverage, issues do seem larger than life. I hope you are not classifying a few threads in this forum and elsewhere as 'mass hysteria'.

What has effectively happened, according to me, is that the 'sheen' of service of the missionaries has been washed away. And to this end, the multiple threads / discussion are but a small step in discovering the truth about the Missionaries.

b) I have no hesitation in joining you in denouncing the violence that was unleashed in Orissa. Nothing can be more wrong in adopting a condescending attitude only because the perpetrators 'belonged' to the same religion as we do. (I am purpotedly saying 'belonged' because once they set out to do what they did, they ceased to belong to Hinduism)

c) Sir, Hindus today feel they are between a rock and a hard place. On one side is the fact that the religion is largely unstructured and has no ‘one authority’ to decide on what is right and what isn’t. And on another side is a form of Governance which thrives on a form of secularism that is highly partisan and inimical to the interests of Hinduism. So the ‘hysteria’ is not only about saving Hinduism but also the ‘harvested souls’ who are not better off in their adopted (forced to adopt ?) religion.

d) Here I wish to take refuge under ‘Bhaarathiyar’ . Bhaaraathiyar was unequivocal in deriding the caste system but he was equally, if not more, convinced that the weaknesses in the system cannot be exploited and turned into a potent weapon.

I think the clincher is when Bhaarathiyar wrote : “Aayiram undu ingu jaadhi, enil anniyar vandhu pugal enna needhi”

While I agree with you that the Hindus did not pay heed to the various savants who exhorted them to abolish the caste system and bring to an end the religious deprivation of the masses, the missionaries ploy of using it to cause the exodus from Hinduism cannot be exonerated.

There have been numerous articles on how the missionaries go about their ‘noble task’. Financial incentives apart, the scale of network that the missionaries have built has assumed scaring proportions. There is a detailed investigation report that Tehelka (of the arms deal scam fame) has unearthed which I will try to post later.

Not only the promised financial incentives are never provided, the caste based ostracization has not ceased for the dalits. What has effectively happened with the dalits embracing Christianity is the creation of a new sub-class of oppressed section called as the ‘Dalit Christians’

e) I think there are roughly about 3 types of conversions

1. Someone who genuinely believes that Christianity is better than Hinduism or identifies with Christianity more than he does with Hinduism. I call him an “self-informed convert”

2. There is this second type in which those who are in the periphery of the Hindu system and were never cared for by those in the upper echelons of the Hindu social order, embrace Christianity. Harsh it may sound but Hinduism, rather Hindus ‘deserve’ to lose them. As you rightly say the mitigation for this type can come only thru increased philanthropic activities and more importantly conveying a message that they are being cared for.

3. The third type of conversion is the forced or induced conversion. The inducement may not always be in the form of monetary gains but also propaganda about following a faith that will only lead the followers to darkness.

The pamphlets distributed in parts of Karnataka, vilifying Hindu gods are some of the ‘methods’ deployed by the missionaries to wean Hindus from their faith. Sadly the political system is too weak-kneed to take any action.

While it is easy to advocate restraint and infact the Hindus have demonstrated restraint the longest in memory, I hope sir, you would appreciate that it is not that easy to keep hot-heads in check all the time.

f) In summary I would say that there is no whipping of mass hysteria but Christianity is called into question more than ever before. The manifestation of this may come across as hysteria to you but it is perhaps the venting of a growing public sentiment that Hindus and Hinduism cannot be taken for granted for ever. Not in these times atleast.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

The need of the hour...

1. During my childhood days, in the convent in which I studied, initially there was a mass service which the "nuns" would take us to... I cannot term that as compulsory/mandatory induction, but being kids, we would not oppose elders esp. the nun-teachers... (some were esp brutal in handling kids). This lays the groundwork in the sub-conscious for future conversion thrusts.
2. It was the time when I was doing my matric - a preacher came to the class and extolled about the virtues of the "true saviour". Then, among other things we were asked to write about all our "sins", even those innermost secrets (along with our names), on a scrap of paper and hand it over to him. He said that he would entrust them to the saviour and ask for forgiveness on all our behalf. And amazingly, those sinners would see a change in their attitude etc... It was later learnt that he had used to blackmail some of the students into conversion.
3. During my days as an active swayamsevak, we went into another area to establish a shaka... it was primarily to enlighten the neglected about the virtues of our culture. The area where we went was dominated by christians.... we could not even practise our daily routine on a common ground! We were surrounded by the christian folk and had a long discussion/argument (have to say that we went prepared expecting the worst)... It was a face to face standoff and finally, we just did a short exercise and then cleared the space! There were no more sessions after that! It is not that we were afraid, but even the hindus who were there did not voice out - that was the concern.
4. Near to the college in which I studied there was (still is I suppose) a makeshift prayer room (supposedly) for the small muslim populace there... One night (during our NSS program), we were just chattering away, laughing and passing by... suddenly 5 or 6 people (muslims) emerged and asked us to maintain silence as they were praying... we made a hasty retreat. It was needless as the "prayer-room" was adjacent to the NH and there was enough traffic to disturb them otherwise even without our little indulgence...
5. We had an active participant who was really doing good work in the slums and there was a positive feedback to his efforts. This was construed as an anti-muslim effort by the jihadis and four people hacked him up as he was returning alone from his daily routine visit to a hilltop temple.
6. There are no great donations for the RSS Karyalayams; but there are people who have vowed their life for the sake of our culture (pure brahmacharis) and are sincere, well-educated and relentless in their ideals. My heart goes out to them. Alas, the majority of the hindu community tend to isolate themselves from RSS, as they see a probably extremist tag being attached to them.
7. Akhanda Bharat is one of the main ideals of RSS, but I feel that it has considerably mellowed down over the years partly due to the impracticability of the idea itself and partly due to suppression arising out of the political drama in our country.
8. Many christian doctors and healthcare institutions hand over free copies of the bible and other christian-related paraphernalia (in the local language); there would just be a table indicating that they are free take-aways... many do take this, maybe out of sheer curiosity, but I feel this also dents the psyche to incline favourably to the "saviour".
9. Being tolerant is a virtue - I agree, but it has its limits. There are situations where aggression is required. The biggest disadvantage is that there is no political will to back us. For this our community has to gather themselves and organize its efforts. The results may not be immediate, but there will be...
10. Repeated portrayals of hindus (esp brahmins) in a bad light in the cinema world has definitely had its impact. The vedas and other scriptures are purely seen as a handiwork of vested brahmins. Thus the negation of vedas and associated rituals is inherently seen as a rise against the brahmin superiority.
11. Not satisfied with their actions alone, several passages from our scriptures and epics are selected to portray obscene and chauvinistic intents. The plethora of translated versions of our scriptures by various authors highly aid them in their intent. And that no hindu body questions these pervert translations is another motivating factor!
12. This July, while I was on my way to the airport here... the driver of the taxi engaged me in causal conversation. He is a malayalee muslim... and he knew that I was a brahmin on hearing my name. He started about the atrocities of brahmins in kerala - it seems that, in earlier times, brahmins even prevented lower-caste womenfold from covering their bosom!? Then he started his version of Ramayana (probably learnt from a madarasa translation) where Rama is said to have cut of the bosom of Surpanakai! He is absolutely fanatic about it... no amount of logical explanation could be reasoned out with him.

Dear all, there is more danger than meets the eye... it is all not so sweet and intellectual out there; philosophical reasoning does not always work. Once we step out, the harsh realities would make us wish that we never had...

We have to deal with such situations. We have to extend the reach of the noble intent of our scriptures to the grassroot level.

We can take the initiative by at least helping our community and by reaching out. We should be as a group and see to it that the problems in our community are solved. We have to instil courage and faith in our youth. We have to break this carapace of self-indulgence; only then would our community flourish.

I base these on my personal experiences and hence as a first step, urge our brahmin brethren to unite. Problems like conversions, inter-religious marriages etc would lessen as we gain in courage and confidence by our very actions!

Awake, arise and act...

Regards,
Seshadri

 

[kunjuppu]

Saul Alinsky, a radical with a realist bent once wrote, "Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people."

i quote this as a spatially very distant observation of mine, to this rather steamy tempest in the teapot that is our forum.

tbs, sesh, i see in your postings, atleast in my view ( which may be completely offbase) a sense of despair and urgency - that the universe that you so cherish is fading fast, if not self destructing.

whatever consolation that i wish to give you, i understand, will insuffice. so i will disdain from any such effort.

i wish to say, that with each day, the universe unfolds itself to yet another aspect. fears build phantoms, which are more frightful than the original cause of the fears.

not to worry.

back to saul alinsky: when i personalize our tamil brahmin community in the context of tamil nadu, how true it is. i think, even when move on to become ghosts, we will haunt the psyche that is tamil nadu, for so pervading is our presence, real or imagined.

personally, i think, every other caste in tamil nadu, wants to be like us. in this context, has come up an urge to education, upward mobility, and above all, albeit, somewhat discretely, to adopt our own three 'C's - convenience , cash and comfort as our life defining mores.

in this somewhat complex situation, we find yet again and again, posters, confusing their identiy - brahmin, hindu, quota bound, tradition bound, sloka unbound ... and what not..

what is important, in my view, is to remember, is to understand oneself, and find that centre point of one's emotional and spirtual centre of gravity - ie where everything around one makes sense.

i see, in your postings, this eager endeavour, to find your spot of comfort, in this fast everchanging world.

deliberately, i have withheld from comments on many a postings of tbs or sesh, for it is but a fascinating movie to watch - their journeys through these postings to discover an oasis of comfort within this ocean of knowledge that we all define as our Hinduism.

God Bless.

 

[happyhindu]

My views. Since we are all products of our circumstance, these wud be mine, i suppose:

During my childhood days, in the convent in which I studied, initially there was a mass service which the "nuns" would take us to... I cannot term that as compulsory/mandatory induction, but being kids, we would not oppose elders esp. the nun-teachers... (some were esp brutal in handling kids). This lays the groundwork in the sub-conscious for future conversion thrusts.

The convent in which i studied for about 5 years, also had a mass everyday. Dunno if it was complusary. It was fun being out of class. The nuns were never strict. On the whole, it was fun.

It was the time when I was doing my matric - a preacher came to the class and extolled about the virtues of the "true saviour". Then, among other things we were asked to write about all our "sins"....later learnt that he had used to blackmail some of the students into conversion.

We always had preachers who wud extoll the virtues of being a 'good christian' but none were ever asked to convert.

There are no great donations for the RSS Karyalayams; but there are people who have vowed their life for the sake of our culture (pure brahmacharis) and are sincere, well-educated and relentless in their ideals. My heart goes out to them. Alas, the majority of the hindu community tend to isolate themselves from RSS, as they see a probably extremist tag being attached to them.

Someone i know is still an RSS member. A gentle soul, i have yet to see him raise his voice or lose his temper (its an other matter tht he still cannot find a girlfriend because he does not have a macho image). I wud think that a good many RSS guys are indeed dedicated workers. Unfortunately it is a few aggressive ones amongst them, esp the leaders i might suppose, that bring the organization a negative image of unwarranted extremism. One wishes that such higher-ups wud try and get a more realistic picture and liken to the gentler side of them while dealing with issues such as conversion. I certainly do not want Christianity to disappear from India. I wish all of them exist and live in peace. All that i ask is not to demean the hindu faith and twist it around, just to promote christianity.


Many christian doctors and healthcare institutions hand over free copies of the bible and other christian-related paraphernalia (in the local language); there would just be a table indicating that they are free take-aways... many do take this, maybe out of sheer curiosity, but I feel this also dents the psyche to incline favourably to the "saviour".

Never heard of this. I suppose a christian doctor wud not really be bothered if someone wants to place bibles on his table for someone else who wants to pick them up for free from the same table. I do not think anyone develops the will to convert just by reading the bible. Someone told me that if one were a true-christian in one birth, he wud have the feelings to convert to live in the same love of faith (brought over vasanas) in the current birth. We should therefore not interfere with those who want to convert for faith.

Being tolerant is a virtue - I agree, but it has its limits. There are situations where aggression is required. The biggest disadvantage is that there is no political will to back us. For this our community has to gather themselves and organize its efforts. The results may not be immediate, but there will be...

Aggression has never reaped rewards. The ones who are aggressive currently will be remembered in future for having been agressive. I do not think hindus want to be remembered as such.

Repeated portrayals of hindus (esp brahmins) in a bad light in the cinema world has definitely had its impact.

Why look at movies that portray brahmins in a bad light, why not look at those that portray them in a good light as well, though fewer in number. On the whole cinema is just entertainment, nothing more, nothing less. No sensible person wud ever base anything on a movie of all things in the world.

The vedas and other scriptures are purely seen as a handiwork of vested brahmins. Thus the negation of vedas and associated rituals is inherently seen as a rise against the brahmin superiority.

This is where the need to develop various organizations as Sri Nacchinarkiniyanji said arises. The imperative part is to dispel notions that seek to create a seperation b/w the hindus and the brahmins; and to make it known that there is no such thing as a 'vested' brahmin at all.

As for the second sentence, please also consider there are several people who do not negate the vedas or rituals as any rise against brahmin superiority. They wud consider a brahmin just different in function, that's all, not more, not less. Neither is there any desire in them to be like a brahmin simply coz such people might not be kind that are interested in rituals - this is esp true of my generation of my parents and grandparents who seem to have discarded practically everything followed until the immediate preceding generation - simply coz they felt they have more interesting things in life to pursue. I wud think this is typical of what we can call as a 'generation gap' - each generation seeks to go out into the world and live whatever wud be 'modern' for its times (btw on the light side, my father considers me more old-fashioned than him). This automatically does not make them as people who are negating the vedas and associated rituals at all -- they are just having fun in life that's all. Infact, in old age with all responsibilties done with (or resigned to the fact that they will never be completed), i see many of them wanting to do something as part of socially oriented things.


Not satisfied with their actions alone, several passages from our scriptures and epics are selected to portray obscene and chauvinistic intents... no hindu body questions these pervert translations is another motivating factor!

I agree with you. It pains me as well that several passages from the hindu scriptures are completely turned around so horribly and propagated like that by vested interests. The more hindu organizations we have, the more we will be able to deal with it well.

This July, while I was on my way to the airport here... the driver of the taxi engaged me in causal conversation. He is a malayalee muslim... no amount of logical explanation could be reasoned out with him.

Such people are everywhere. Once two ladies turned up at my door with a church pamphlet. They had printed Kali on the pamphlet and were hell bent on convincing me that hindus were devil worshippers and that i shd be 'saved'. They had their own version of what is kala (time), the current (kali-yuga) that we live in and so on. But over the years i have realized that even some politically-oriented 'dravida' people might get convinced, but never a zealot who is mired in what they call as 'light' and what we call as 'ignorance'...

Regards.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Just my reflections on happyhindu's views:

Aggression has never reaped rewards. The ones who are aggressive currently will be remembered in future for having been agressive. I do not think hindus want to be remembered as such.

? I do not agree... there are times where aggression is necessary. We are all aware of the nuances of the practical world and assuming that aggression would never reap rewards is like assuming the state of a "perfect competition" (in economics)... Again, aggression need not be construed to mean only the physical...

Why look at movies that portray brahmins in a bad light, why not look at those that portray them in a good light as well, though fewer in number. On the whole cinema is just entertainment, nothing more, nothing less. No sensible person wud ever base anything on a movie of all things in the world.

It is not about me that the issue is about... rather the masses where the reach of the screen is tremendous.

The vedas and other scriptures are purely seen as a handiwork of vested brahmins. Thus the negation of vedas and associated rituals is inherently seen as a rise against the brahmin superiority.

This is where the need to develop various organizations as Sri Nacchinarkiniyanji said arises. The imperative part is to dispel notions that seek to create a seperation b/w the hindus and the brahmins; and to make it known that there is no such thing as a 'vested' brahmin at all.

You can refer my earlier post on this view. No comments.

As for the second sentence, please also consider there are several people who do not negate the vedas or rituals as any rise against brahmin superiority. ...i see many of them wanting to do something as part of socially oriented things.

I am talking about those whose intentions are to negate and whose numbers are sufficiently large to make an impression. My intent of the post is totally different from what you have meant in your reply!!! I am talking about the Harijans, the OBCs the BCs and the SC/STs... There have been mass conversions to buddhism by people just to scorn the idea of the caste-hierarchy (amongst others)

Not satisfied with their actions alone, several passages from our scriptures and epics are selected to portray obscene and chauvinistic intents... no hindu body questions these pervert translations is another motivating factor!

I agree with you. It pains me as well that several passages from the hindu scriptures are completely turned around so horribly and propagated like that by vested interests. The more hindu organizations we have, the more we will be able to deal with it well.

Am afraid, that it is not the number which alone counts but the support of the community and the WILL to do it... Organsations can be started at one's whims and fancies (it just needs the formalities to be completed)... how it evolves later is the crucial part...

This July, while I was on my way to the airport here... the driver of the taxi engaged me in causal conversation. He is a malayalee muslim... no amount of logical explanation could be reasoned out with him.

Such people are everywhere. Once two ladies turned up at my door with a church pamphlet. ... zealot who is mired in what they call as 'light' and what we call as 'ignorance'...

Again, it is not about "me"; there are people who can be easily brainwashed by this logic... this is the way that the missionaries/madarasas are resorting to, to erode the native culture...

happyhindu, you seem to point out the other view of things and am glad for that; it is not that it evades my thought, but that tendency sometimes overrides the intent of the post!

I think no hindu would mind living in a multi cultural society whether it be christians or muslism... my impetus is to stem the "conversion" activities...

Christianity is known for its ability to destroy cultures and that is evident from history... and hence the necessity to ban conversions...

Regards

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

1. This July, while I was on my way to the airport here... the driver of the taxi engaged me in causal conversation. He is a malayalee muslim... and he knew that I was a brahmin on hearing my name. He started about the atrocities of brahmins in kerala - it seems that, in earlier times, brahmins even prevented lower-caste womenfold from covering their bosom!? Then he started his version of Ramayana (probably learnt from a madarasa translation) where Rama is said to have cut of the bosom of Surpanakai! He is absolutely fanatic about it... no amount of logical explanation could be reasoned out with him.

Regards,
Seshadri

Sorry, Seshadri. He is right. The agitation of the Nadar women in Kerala is one of those shameful episodes. Though it affected women of all the lower castes, the Nadars took it up and succeeded with the active support of the Christian missionaries.

As per the original Valmiki Ramayana Lakshmana is supposed to have cut Parimala's (Surpanaka is a nickname and derogatory) breasts. Kamban and Tulasi changed it.

Both these instances are often quoted by the feminists when they talk about the status of women in India of old.

Do you know that there were/are communities in Tamil Nadu where the women are prohibited from wearing a blouse. How long did we deny the female infanticide in Salem district which still continues?

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Sorry, Seshadri. He is right. The agitation of the Nadar women in Kerala is one of those shameful episodes. Though it affected women of all the lower castes, the Nadars took it up and succeeded with the active support of the Christian missionaries.

As per the original Valmiki Ramayana Lakshmana is supposed to have cut Parimala's (Surpanaka is a nickname and derogatory) breasts. Kamban and Tulasi changed it.

Both these instances are often quoted by the feminists when they talk about the status of women in India of old.

Do you know that there were/are communities in Tamil Nadu where the women are prohibited from wearing a blouse. How long did we deny the female infanticide in Salem district which still continues?

My eyes are wide open now...!!!!

Is it possible for you please give me some authentic references.... meanwhile I shall also try to look up...

The news about the kerala episode is new to me.... but that valmiki ramayana part is totally unbelievable... I read that Lakshmana cut off the nose of Surpanakai...

I would definitely check this out...

Thanks Shri Nacchinarkiniyan

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,

saa tu shuurpaNakhaa naama dashagriivasya rakSasaH |
bhaginii raamam aasaadya dadarsha tridasha upamam || 3-17-6

6. rakSasaH dasha griivasya bhaginii= demon, ten, faced one’s [Ravana’s,] sister; shuurpaNakhaa naama= Shuurpanakha, named; saa tu= she, but; tridasha upamam= paradisiacal being, who is like; raamam aasaadya= Rama, on reaching; dadarsha= she saw him.

She is but the sister of ten-faced demon Ravana, Shuurpanakha by her name and she has seen him on reaching the paradisiacal being like Rama. [3-17-6]

iti uk{}to lakshmaNaH tasyaaH kruddho raamasya pashyataH |
uddhR^itya khaDgam cicCheda karNa naasam mahaabalaH || 3-18-21

21. iti uktaH mahaabalaH lakshmaNaH= thus, said, great-mighty, Lakshmana; kruddhaH= infuriated; raamasya pashyataH= while Rama, is seeing; uddhR^itya khaDgam= taking up [drawing,] sword; tasyaaH karNa naasam cicCheda= her, ears, nose, chopped off.

Thus said to that mighty Lakshmana he infuriately drew sword and chopped off her ears and nose before the very eyes of Rama. [3-18-21]

Link: http://www.valmikiramayan.net/aranya/sarga18/aranya_18_frame.htm

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Seshadri,

Do you think that they are going to post the original which has been condemned by feminists in numerous articles? This is a sanitized version. I quoted information from academic seminars where we were not discussing Hinduism at all, but about the status of women.

Tell me even then how do you justify this attack on a woman? Molestation we call it and punishable under Indian Penal Code.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Dealing with missionaries

The way we have been dealing with missionaries tends to antagonize the entire Christian population. Missionaries are not popular even among the Christians. They are considered freaks and a relic of the past. By their close association with the Colonial invasions, they have become unpopular. Search around on the net and you will find a number of sites by Christians denouncing their activities much more strongly than any Hindu.

The best way of dealing with the Christian Missionaries is to educate the public about what they are doing and what is wrong with their tactics. We do not identify the entire Hindu community with the Hindu extremists. Ordinary Hindus are absolutely horrified at the activities of the Hindu extremists. The same holds good in Islam also. The Christian missioneries are the Christian extremists and their tactics should be exposed.

But this can not be done by people who are closely associated with Hindu political/religious organizations. But if for example a Swamiji of the Ramakrishna or Chinmaya order writes an expose, it will swing the public opinion. It could be also done by others who are connected to organizations which are known to work for upliftment of the Dalits and Tribals.

Get half a dozen articles like that and the Missionary's goose will be cooked.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Seshadri,

Do you think that they are going to post the original which has been condemned by feminists in numerous articles? This is a sanitized version. I quoted information from academic seminars where we were not discussing Hinduism at all, but about the status of women.

Tell me even then how do you justify this attack on a woman? Molestation we call it and punishable under Indian Penal Code.

Shri Nacchi,

I think we are all on unequal grounds when comparing the acts of then with the laws and morals of today... hence I restrain myself from commenting on this.

But, when we talk about the "hideousness" of the act against Surpanakai, we have also to remember what she had impressed on the "Raghus"... that she would gobble up Sita etc etc...

Of course, I would strongly condemn such an act if it were done in our times... whatever be the cause.

Having said that, there are pearls of wisdom to be learned and practised from the epics; then I see no other reason than to malign the mind of the hindu against his belief, that these questions crop up.

Then again, there is the eternal question of genuineness... who determines what the authentic source is? It is a vicious circle which can only breed antagonism, distrust and a sense of despair.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Seshadri,

Valmiki wrote an epic about an ideal King Rama. He described him as equal to Vishnu. Later writers like Kamban and Tulsidas made him into a God. The Seeta Apaharanam episode in Valmiki Ramayana was changed by Kamban to suit the social norms of his day. The Surpanaha episode has racial overtones also. But then it is what was the norm in the days when Valmiki lived. Leave it at that. I checked up the site. The Seeta apaharanam episode is slightly different from other versions. Ramayana is the oldest Indian epic and there are so many versions even in Sanskrit.

As long as we do not take our Puranas and epics literally as factual history we will have no problem.

The epics and Puranas were written to bring to the common man the pearls of wisdom of the Hindu religion. They also tell us something about the social norms of the day when they were written.

The old writers had a habit of referring to a person by their physical apperance or qualities. Many a time the real name is forgotten. We know Indrajit. But how many of us know that that was his title and his real name was Meganatha.

 

[Seshadri Subramaniam]

Yes Shri Nacchi, I agree with you...

Aside:

BTW, I have read and heard several versions of Ramayana... one in which Ravana uproots the whole paranasalai... one in which he drags her by the hair... one in which he physically abducts her... and, given the number of versions and translations, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more different portrayals of the apaharan...

Meghanathan is the real name.. yes... am aware of that too... and if am not exaggarating, then whoever has read the Ramayana completely would know that too..

And Rajaji's version of Ramayana exalts him as "Purushottam" Ram... the ideal .... but not as God...

 

[malgova.mango]

HA...HA....HA....

I had a hearty laugh ....

Please stop humoring me , I can't take it anymore...

Huhhh...

Is Lakshmana dealing with women? - I thought Lakshmana swami dealing with demoness.

Another joke...

Itihasaas are not to be taken literally ... the very meaning of "ITI HASA" is thus it happened . So Itihasa is a misnomer..

Ha ha ha.....

There are many version available in sanskrit .....

May be but Valmiki's is one and only one..

We should not antagonize Christians.... What a sensitivity.

The solution is simple, just with half a dozen article - the problem is solved - What an ingenunity .... Now what the chapter is closed. Love and Peace restored.

Sarve Janas Sukino Bhavantu.