Who are we?

[KRS]

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SIR - I have some technical problems in updating my postings, due to which some of my views have not been registered.

2. Varnashrama was based not on birth, but on profession. Brahmins were priests,kshatriyas warriors, vaishyas businessmen & shudras labourers. any person could convert from one varna to another varna (read thuglak issue dated 14 03 2007, page nos.448 to 452, 'Hindu Maha samuthiram' by Mr. cho ramaswamy) what happened was that over the years, many persons converted from other varnas to brahminism, and it were these 'new' convert bramins & their descendants who indulged in animal sacrifice and meat eating, whereas orthodox original
bramins avoid even onions & garlic till date,, not to speak of eggs and meat! it was because of this bitter experience that bramins decided not to allow anybody from other varnas to convert to brahminism. the motive of bramins was not hatred of other varnas, but to preserve their distinct identity.

3. Dr. David Frawley, eminent american says Soma is a plant juice with medicinal value.

4. in theravada buddhism, buddha has been mentioned as eating meat! even wikipedia mentions this.

5. it is said muslims are allowed to have 4 wives, because, muslims eat so much of non vegetarian food that, their sexual passion is aroused to uncontrollable limits. so they are allowed to have 4 wives, so that even if three of them get menstrual periods at the same time, there is still one wife left for the husband to satiate his lust. (this is only for joke & fun)

by oversight i have duplicated a couple of postings. i will be careful hereafter.

Dear Sri Naras Ji,

2. You are saying here what I am about to post on 'Varna'. That it is based on 'merit' and 'aptitude' and not on 'birth' as originally conceived by our scriptures.

3. & $. I think we have flogged the topics on Vegetarianism and Soma here and since they are peripheral to the main topic, I agree with Sri Mrifan and Sri Hari and move on.

4. Seriously, the reason Mohammed allowed for multiple wives in that religion was the fact that there were lots of widows during that time, because of constant intercinine clan warfare. Seriously again, may I request you not to bring in discussions about any other religion (even jokingly) in to this thread. Usually such discussions raise passion and at the end, get the focus away from the topic at hand. Hope you would agree.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[silverfox]

Dear KRS:
Thank you for the clarifications; I trust the scholar!

Why is NARAS hell-bent in arguing that Brahmins did not sacrifice or did not eat meat? -- for God's sake, it was long, long, long time ago. Let us move on. Please continue to educate us; I look forward to your postings.

 

[silverfox]

NARAS alias Suresh

KRS is not bashing Jainism or Buddhism whereas you are. Please read our guidelines. If you don't follow the rules, we will delete your posts. And... enough on vegetarianism......

 

[murali]

b_a_i_m,
my remarks on the elephant were off the mark.Couldn't quite grasp the reflections on Lord Anantapadmanabha, but they were thought provoking.I had a discussion on this topic sometime back with my sister.


Nice to see a feminine perspective.

 

[lotus_quartz]

chalte chalte

Bade be abroo hoke tere kooche se nikle hum!

Naras bhaiya, kabhi alwida na kehna...

 

[karthisri]

Sarchchai Vs. Sandai

Pulavargalukkul (Aringnargalukkul) sarchchai varalam sandai varakkoodadhu........

 

[hariharan1972]

Why ?

I am actually peeved as to why we are so emotional on just a point of view....that too about something none of us had any first hand knowledge of

My humble submission that there is nothing called a perfect chronicle of history & points of view would naturally vary on the basis of which account you read & what context you apply......

Instead of moving forward, i am quite disappointed that the discussion gets dragged on a single pov & eventually gets turned on it's head.

In this context let me quote a small anecdote a tamil prof once told my class - on how history is written.

He said : "Imagine a Pallavan Transport Corporation bus meeting with an accident & imagine its name/sign plate rolling off the bus & getting buried in a village field. Say 1000 years hence, it could be "discovered" by some historian & he will come to an "informed conclusion" that Pallavas ruled TN in 1990s. (MK, Amma pls excuse !)

What i have quoted could be an over simplification & certainly not denigrating historians or archaeologists but the point remains that no account of history can be 100% perfect or accurate.

So instead of dwelling too much on a single point, Can we get back to the original subject matter please ?

Also perhaps i would advocate that we show enough tolerance for a certain point of view that we don't subscribe to & not allow emotions to get the better of us.

 

[gurumurthyji]

Let the Demolition squad work ... KRS Sir Please continue!!

Sri. KRS sir,

Pranams. This thread is excellent, educative and also the real need of this time for all younger, educated and even intellectuals of Tamil Brahmins. This reminds me of a great personality with whom I had the greatest opportunity to work in the seventies for some social and cultural cause. It is he, who made me think about me, my society and my nation and beyond.

All of us are now just like the 5/6 blind persons looking at an elephant. What else could be the real reason for you to write now except giving the big picture and uniting all of us ? I request my friends of these columns to have patience and listen. The heaven is not going to fall by this kind of frank and open discussion in this thread.

KRS Sir, We are all along used to hearing such abuses by our distracters. Creating issues out of non issue and diverting thereby the attention of real readers from the main topic is also nothing new. This is always the art of our demolition squad who always fights wearing masks and have no truth to offer in support. More so your thread appears to have terrified them. Please continue Sir.

GURUMURTHYJI

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Naras Ji,

Why such an anger? I am not saying in anyway that vegetarianism is not the preferred and prescribed diet in our religion. By saying that in very ancient times, long, long time ago, our fore-fore fathers might have eaten meat does not in anyway diminish the Brahminical way of life today, nor does it raise any questions about our fore fathers. Societies advance with lessons learned from living. So did the societies that lived before ours.

I hope I can add something in this thread, with a perspective that may be different from some of you. And I can also learn. That is the intent. I am in no way doing this to hurt some one's feelings. Words and ideas need not be read and thought about, if one thinks that one does not want to let them in to one's realm.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[goundamani]

The answer for the question "Who is a Brahmin" if pursued spiritually will give different results to different persons, because spirituality is individualistic and personal..

The definition given by the moderators "he who helps his community is a brahmin" is pragmatic and it suits for the purposes of this forum,viz. to help needy poor brahmins.This definition in no way hinders a person's spiritual search for answer to the question "who is a brahmin".

In fact for spiritual people to exist,house holders should also exist.Idealists could exist only if pragmatists exist to protect them.Both idealists and pragmatists should compliment each other.This forum fulfills the pragmatists job.

I feel sorry about Sri.Suresh. I sincerely request that he should comeback (and stop posting about non-vegetarians, sathyaraaja, haasaa and so on) and channel his energies and enthusiasam towards the betterment of the society.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Kolhu ka Bail

A commonly used metaphor in Hindi is "Kolhu Ka Bail" and is used to denote a person who is incapable of making a fresh start even if opportunity presents itself. It is said that the Bail (ox) used for pressing oil in traditional oil mills (kolhu) continues to go round and round even if freed from the kolhu (oil press).

This is the state of todays tambrams (sorry, no offense intended).

My submission to this august gathering is that time has come when tambrams start tangential thinking, trying out new vistas etc. Harping on old formula which worked 1000 yr back is not effective any more. The public has become more enlightened and is not buying the USP s of tambrams or for that matter other varieties of brams.

Some of the activities that could be considered include formation of all india association of brahmins, leading a second rennaissance in Hinduism (the first round was initiated by the Shankaracharyas and Vaishnava/Bhakti movement). - rewriting some of the texts (dealing with stratification of society), editing and revising some other texts deleting objectionable and sensitive/derogatory content, racist stories (like eklavya losing thumb for no fault of his) and other texts, giving hindu scriptures a more appealing, just and human face etc. The more enlighetned members may throw light on how this can be done.

The answer for the question "Who is a Brahmin" if pursued spiritually will give different results to different persons, because spirituality is individualistic and personal..

The definition given by the moderators "he who helps his community is a brahmin" is pragmatic and it suits for the purposes of this forum,viz. to help needy poor brahmins.This definition in no way hinders a person's spiritual search for answer to the question "who is a brahmin".

In fact for spiritual people to exist,house holders should also exist.Idealists could exist only if pragmatists exist to protect them.Both idealists and pragmatists should compliment each other.This forum fulfills the pragmatists job.

I feel sorry about Sri.Suresh. I sincerely request that he should comeback (and stop posting about non-vegetarians, sathyaraaja, haasaa and so on) and channel his energies and enthusiasam towards the betterment of the society.

 

[mrifan]

Avatarams

Dear Mr. Suresh (NARAS),

I realized early on that it was you in another avatar. The following gave it away:

* Username in all caps
* Username containing N and S.
* Beginning each post with "Sir - ", a style used by many when writing a letter to an editor of an Indian newspaper.
* Same style of prose with interspersed caps and exclamation marks at the end.
* Picking up the same topics where you left off with your other username (N.SURESH).

I must admit I had a small doubt at the beginning because you were not quoting your own posts like in the past

I think unity, rather than dissension among us is more important, and to have a civil debate. After all, I am sure all of us Brahmanas here share the goal of uplifting our community, and safeguarding our heritage. Let us put aside any acrimony and stick to original sources as much as possible, and not leave in a huff.

SIR - Mr.SILVER FOX ALIAS RANGANATHA! KRS IS bashing brahmnism which i am not. it is his posts which should be banned, not mine. what i entered are not my views but proofs and evidences from scriptures which nail the lies of your 'scholarly' members that bramins ate meat. pls. ask your 'scholarly' members to read 'THE WORLD OF FATWAS' By Dr. arun shourie , in which quotations from quran which say prophet mohammed mentioning that 'women are commodities for men to enjoy' are published. WILL YOUR 'SCHOLARLY' MEMBERS HAVE THE COURAGE TO WRITE ABOUT QURAN OR BIBLE?

 

[silverfox]

Dear NARAS alias SURESH:
Look, as you know, this is the most democratic forum you could see and I am all for free-speech. KRS is just giving us a glimpse of historical facts - so what if the brahmins ate meat 2500 years ago? Let us look at the present-day world. Who knows that you and I were really the true descendants of pure brahmins? Thousands of years have gone by and noone for sure can prove it. You have a closed mind and you dont want to hear the truth.

KRS was merely suggesting that we don't need to bash other religions in this forum for no reason. We WILL write about Quaran or Bible if the occasion called for it. But to bash those religions without provoked is not in good taste; it is just not Brahminical.

I am sorry to see you go; I was merely mentioning that you keep on harping on a single agenda that members get tired of. I suggest that you visit the website of 'Viduthalai' and fight it out our friend 'viduthalaikaruppu':horn:

mrifan: Good one! You omitted one more item - his pet peeve on vegetarianism - that Indian Constitution mandates all of us to be vegetarians!!!!
Come on, Suresh, er.... Naras... be a sport and stay with us! You did provide some real good insights on the politics of Tamil Nadu DMK!

Take care
Ranganathan (SILVER FOX)

SIR - Mr.SILVER FOX ALIAS RANGANATHA! KRS IS bashing brahmnism which i am not. it is his posts which should be banned, not mine. what i entered are not my views but proofs and evidences from scriptures which nail the lies of your 'scholarly' members that bramins ate meat. pls. ask your 'scholarly' members to read 'THE WORLD OF FATWAS' By Dr. arun shourie , in which quotations from quran which say prophet mohammed mentioning that 'women are commodities for men to enjoy' are published. WILL YOUR 'SCHOLARLY' MEMBERS HAVE THE COURAGE TO WRITE ABOUT QURAN OR BIBLE?

the vedas have been there for centures in this country, even before they were written as texts. nobody knows when vedas originated. they are that old.

if bramins are meat eaters, then how did untouchability originate? even mahatma gandhi , more educated than your 'scholarly' members has said that bramins were always pure vegetarians, and it was because of this that they considered non bramins who consume meat as untouchable. (EDHU HINDU DHARMAM BY MAHATMA GANDHI).

even buddhists do not follow buddhism, whereas your 'scholarly' members are 'discovering' that brahminism was inspired by buddhism! all religions which originated in india -brahmnism, non brahminism, buddhism, sikhism & jainism - all are vegetarian religions. the only difference is that whereas brahminism is a pure vegetarian religion, other indian religions allow eating meat of animals which die a natural death.

There is no need for you to ban me, because i will never come back to this disappointing and discouraging forum again in any form. Good bye once for all to you and to all of your 'scholarly' members! but before going let me say one thing- the present day bramins may be drunkards, meat eaters, smokers and everything. but bramin forefathers & ancestors were pure vegetarians, who will not touch even onions & garlic. to brand such holy & noble persons as meat eaters only shows the lowly levels to which this forum has descended. persons like me ,naturally have no place in this forum. the sooner this forum is closed, the better for all, otherwise it will lead to lot of bitterness & heartburn amongst many bramins for whom vegetarinism is not just a choice, but a religion by itself.
GOOD BYE! SATYAMEVA JAYATE!!
THANK YOU FOR TOLERATING ME SO FAR. SORRY FOR THE TROUBLE. WISHING YOU ALL THE BEST IN FUTURE. BUT PLS. DO NOT DEFAME OUR FOREFATHERS AND ANCESTORS IN ANY WAY.

 

[mrifan]

Very important task

This is a very important task which must be tackled sooner rather than later. The current RSS/VHP/Sankara Matths must organize a sammelan, with the end result being a formal repudiation of many later interpolations which made their way into the Vedas based on then prevailing power structures and social strictures. A new commentary must be written, and placed for adoption before all Hindu sects and castes.

There is an enormous wealth of wisdom contained in the Vedas, including philosophical debates into the nature of man, the Universe, and Dharma, which are timeless expositions of the greatness of our ancient thinkers, much more advanced than any contemporary civilization at that time. This should be preserved, while formally discarding the other anachronistic elements, which make no sense to adhere to today.

The aim should be to unite Vedic coreligionists (Hindus) of all castes so that no caste is considered higher or lower, and yet allows the freedom to each group to believe in their own rituals and style of worship. I think the Vedic religion pioneered the very modern concepts of tolerance, self-enquiry, introspection and devotion, right from its origins, similar to what the Greeks did with their original contributions to modern political science and democracy.

Some of the activities that could be considered include formation of all india association of brahmins, leading a second rennaissance in Hinduism (the first round was initiated by the Shankaracharyas and Vaishnava/Bhakti movement). - rewriting some of the texts (dealing with stratification of society), editing and revising some other texts deleting objectionable and sensitive/derogatory content, racist stories (like eklavya losing thumb for no fault of his) and other texts, giving hindu scriptures a more appealing, just and human face etc. The more enlighetned members may throw light on how this can be done.

 

[KRS]

Second Posting

So, What is Dharma?

Dhr is the Sanskrit root that this word comes from, with the meaning 'something that holds'. So 'Dharma' is God's law that holds His creation together. This is what makes the world to function in a harmonious manner. I f you go against this law, you are courting disaster. For example, this is the law that tells a lamb not lie with a hungry lion. This is the law that motivates a Ravi Verma to paint and not do something else. This what makes the horse to run and Drona to fight.

So then how does this Dharma apply to each classification? A Brahmin has to look out for the spiritual and material well being of the society, a Shatria needs to pretect and administer Justice, a Vaishya needs to increase the material well being of the society and a Shudra needs to do the manual chores.

So, then who is a Brahmin? What does the Universal Law of Dharma expect him to be? If painting is the Dharma for a painter with God given talents, what is a Brahmin's talent to express?

I will finish with a beautiful story of Satyakama in Chandokya Upanishad, son of Jabala (who can at leat be termed as a loose woman) in today's terms.

"Once, Satyakama, the son of Jabala, asked his mother, 'I want to live as a brahmacari. Which gotra do I belong to?' Jabala answered, 'My son, I do not know which gotra you belong to; in my youth I served as a maidservant in various places and at that time begot you as my son. Therefore I don't know which gotra you belong to. My name is Jabala and your name is Satyakama. Therefore you should say that your name is Satyakama Jabala.' Thereafter Satyakama Jabala approached Haridrumata Gautama and said, 'I wish to live with you as a brahmacari.' Gautama replied, 'O gentle one, which gotra do you belong to?' Satyakama replied, ' I do not know which gotra I belong to. I askd my mother and she said, 'I begot you as my son when I was wandering in my youth as a maidservant. Therefore I do not know which dynasty you belong to. My name is Jabala and your name is Satyakama. So I am called Satyakama Jabala.'Gautama then said to him, 'My dear son, no one other than a brahmana can speak such truth that you have spoken. Therefore you are a brahmana, and I accept you. O gentle one, go and bring wood for sacrifice.' Jabala replied, 'I am going right now to bring wood.' Gautama said, 'Never divert from the truth.'

This is a seminal text for the Brahmins, because Dharma and Truth are one and the same.

Brihadharanyaka Upanishad says:

" Verily, that which is Dharma is truth.
Therefore they say of a man who speaks truth, 'He speaks the Dharma,'
or of a man who speaks the Dharma, 'He speaks the Truth.'
Verily, both these things are the same."
(Brh. Upanishad, 1.4.14) (2)

This is a very important point to grasp. Because Sanatana Dharma means that our's is a 'Truthful' religion and because the Brahmins are the guardians of this Truth, this instance clarifies the basic nature of a Brahmin.

We will go in to other qualities that makes a Brahmin in our next posting.


Pranams,
KRS


"

 

[KRS]

Dear Silverfox Ji,

I appreciate your support. But, I agree with Sri Naran Ji (Sri N. Suresh Ji) on one of his points. I am not a scholor! Like many of us, I am trying to figure out 'who am i?' (not the famous question asked by the great sage, Ramana), and try to understand the status of my community (Brahmin) today and understand how to help.

We are our own worst enemies, because, in my opinion we do not listen to other ideas and some of us have such a rigid explanations of who we should be. We also forget at times that 97% of Tamilians are our own kith and kin.

But, meanwhile, the unfortunate in our community suffer. I know your aim was to help these folks. I am hoping to add some knowledge as to how to do this in a way that is a win-win for everyone, while preserving our orthodoxy that some of us believe in. We need to be united.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Gurumurthy Ji,

Thank you for your encouragement and understanding. I never had a formal Guru, but I adopted Maharishi Ramana as my Guru some 10 years ago.

So, I have a resonance with your name. I will continue.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[NARAS]

SIR - IMHO, out of sight means out of mind. so it is very important for bramins to go regularly to temples, attend orthodox functions of fellow bramins, participate in orthodox rituals, hear mantras and see various rites being performed so that you keep in touch with our culture & pass it on to our next generation, which is our duty, just like our forefathers and ancestors have passed on their knowledge to us.

a wife falls at the feet of her husband. sons & daughters prostrate before parents. youngsters prostrate before elders. does this mean those who prostrate are inferior and those who bless them are superior. actually it is not only respect for the post of husband, parent or elder, but also to remind them in a way that you must behave in accordance with the respect that has been accorded for your post.

there was a time when people of any varna could convert themselves to other varnas. so it is possible that many bramins too could have converted to other varnas. may be this is the reason why so many sages, seers and reformers have advocated closer relationship between bramins & non bramins.!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri N. Suresh Ji Sir,

As I have already proclaimed, I am NOT a scholor. On top of that I do not claim to be an expert on our scriptures either.

But, I have an abiding interest in our religion and philosophy, because, culturally I was raised as a Hindu. So, naturally, I am trying to make sense of my religion, because I have lived in the west for almost 38 years.

But, let me ask you a very basic question. From the Vedas to Sri Vivekananda, pronouncements have been made that Hinduism is Sanatana Dharma in the sense that the religion dictates one's PERSONAL relationship with his GOD without a third party interfering, like all the Abrahamic religions do. So, if you agree with this, how can you ever look down on those Hindus who eat meat? Is this any of one's business? If we take this logic further, just because Manu Smrithi at some place forbids a widow to remarry and dictates that she should shave her head, and if she remarries, she is not a Hindu anymore?

Let me, just for this exercise, cite some Abrahamic religions. Christ apparently said that the path to his Father was ONLY through him. Muhammad also defined the infidels, meaning that he knew his Bhakthas to be following God's edicts and anyone outside of his God's following are not God's children. But again, these religions are only about 2000 years old and as Maha Periaval of Kanchi said, it does not stand to logic and reason that a God who is portrayed as 'loving and merciful' would have waited all the yugas since the inception of the Universe to show the way.

So, it seems to me that a person on his / her own individual inclination decides his / her path to Moksha. Is this not the ultimate goal? Our religion is great because, based on the mind level and inclination you have it gives you the opportunity to attain the eternal bliss through various Yogas. It is often said that in Kali Yuga, one needs to just say the name of Rama to attain Moksha.

This is why, I am intrigued why you want to readily judge other people just because they eat meat! Their relationship with their Ishwara(personal God) is between them, and how does it affect you in any manner?

I just do not understand.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[NARAS]

Dear Sri N. Suresh Ji Sir,

As I have already proclaimed, I am NOT a scholor. On top of that I do not claim to be an expert on our scriptures either.

But, I have an abiding interest in our religion and philosophy, because, culturally I was raised as a Hindu. So, naturally, I am trying to make sense of my religion, because I have lived in the west for almost 38 years.

But, let me ask you a very basic question. From the Vedas to Sri Vivekananda, pronouncements have been made that Hinduism is Sanatana Dharma in the sense that the religion dictates one's PERSONAL relationship with his GOD without a third party interfering, like all the Abrahamic religions do. So, if you agree with this, how can you ever look down on those Hindus who eat meat? Is this any of one's business? If we take this logic further, just because Manu Smrithi at some place forbids a widow to remarry and dictates that she should shave her head, and if she remarries, she is not a Hindu anymore?

Let me, just for this exercise, cite some Abrahamic religions. Christ apparently said that the path to his Father was ONLY through him. Muhammad also defined the infidels, meaning that he knew his Bhakthas to be following God's edicts and anyone outside of his God's following are not God's children. But again, these religions are only about 2000 years old and as Maha Periaval of Kanchi said, it does not stand to logic and reason that a God who is portrayed as 'loving and merciful' would have waited all the yugas since the inception of the Universe to show the way.

So, it seems to me that a person on his / her own individual inclination decides his / her path to Moksha. Is this not the ultimate goal? Our religion is great because, based on the mind level and inclination you have it gives you the opportunity to attain the eternal bliss through various Yogas. It is often said that in Kali Yuga, one needs to just say the name of Rama to attain Moksha.

This is why, I am intrigued why you want to readily judge other people just because they eat meat! Their relationship with their Ishwara(personal God) is between them, and how does it affect you in any manner?

I just do not understand.

Pranams,
KRS

Sir - You may certainly be a scholar in many other matters, but in this thread IMHO, atleast so far your scholarly genius has not come out, though the adminstrator of this forum has already proclaimed you as a scholar, ironically for showing bramins in extremely poor light!

by your logic, even drinking, smoking, gambling, horse racing,betting, womanising can be justified. the views i entered about vegeteranism are not my personal views, but only compilations of opinions found in many orthodox scriptures. even mahatma gandhi has said that ' civility of a country can be judge by the way it treats animals'. i think you are inferring scriptures in a wrong way. in scriptures, those who eat meat, drink, gamble, womanise are all shown as being punished and suffering in life (like yudhistira for e.g. who gambled using his wife as a pawn). let me give you an example sir. imagine a person committing a murder. but after that he surrenders to police, apologises for his crime, assures that he has repented and fully co-operates with police & judiciary in all way during the case hearing. based on these behaviourial pattern the judge gives him 7 years imprisonment. if somebody were to say 'the judge has said that if you are willing to remain in jail for 7 years ,you can commit murders!' will it be a correct inference?
in this very thread, on page no.10, posting no.59, you have said that manu smrithi is not considered sacred as upanishads. so what manu smrithi has said about widows is not compulsory for anybody.
will any muslim in the world accept idol worship? will a non vegetarian be allowed in jainism? then why should bramins be ashamed or apologetic about the fact that we have always been pure vegetarians? even indian constitution and law mandate indian governments & people to stop killing or injuring unprovoking animals. but these provisions have not been implemented in letter and spirit.
again my question is if meat eating is justified, then you can justify so many similar evils like drinking, gambling, homosexuality, betting,smoking, womanising etc., when i am saying 'vegetarian' i am referring to a person who does not have any of above habits (although smoking is not legally banned in any part of world). as an elderly bramin i expect you to bless and support my views. IMHO, meat eating is the mother of all evils. that is why perhaps, our forefathers & ancestors were so severe on meat eating. how can i be different from them? after all, it is the same blood and genes which is in my body also!
many of the above views have already been entered by me many times, but since you have asked me these questions i had to repeat them friend!

 

[murali]

i am not able to understand what suresh sir and krs sir are debating.

There is a "vachanam"-PORANDATTU PERUMAIYA UDAPIRANTHANTA CHOLLARA MADIRI

suresh sir,
most if not all here are vegetarians.

KRS sir,
Antha kallathula ennavena pannirukattum,for ages now we have been vegetarians.

 

[rxrajamo]

Dear Shri.Murali

Shri.Suresh seems to believe that any one who is not a vegetarian is not a Hindu and he is also bent upon calling Hinduism as Brahminism. Of course, he is totally entitiled to his view. But the problem comes when he insists that others endorse his view.

Shri.KRS is simply trying to point to Shri.Suresh not to judge others by his standards. As Shri.KRS pointed out, who are we to judge others ?

As Mathew said [SIZE=-1]"Nolite iudicare ut non iudicemini" [/SIZE]meaning "[SIZE=-1]Judge not, that ye be not judged"[/SIZE].

Ramki

PS:On a lighter note, now that I have quoted Mathew, does this make me a non-hindu ? )

i am not able to understand what suresh sir and krs sir are debating.

There is a "vachanam"-PORANDATTU PERUMAIYA UDAPIRANTHANTA CHOLLARA MADIRI

suresh sir,
most if not all here are vegetarians.

KRS sir,
Antha kallathula ennavena pannirukattum,for ages now we have been vegetarians.

 

[NARAS]

Dear Shri.Murali

Shri.Suresh seems to believe that any one who is not a vegetarian is not a Hindu and he is also bent upon calling Hinduism as Brahminism. Of course, he is totally entitiled to his view. But the problem comes when he insists that others endorse his view.

Shri.KRS is simply trying to point to Shri.Suresh not to judge others by his standards. As Shri.KRS pointed out, who are we to judge others ?

As Mathew said [SIZE=-1]"Nolite iudicare ut non iudicemini" [/SIZE]meaning "[SIZE=-1]Judge not, that ye be not judged"[/SIZE].

Ramki

PS:On a lighter note, now that I have quoted Mathew, does this make me a non-hindu ? )

sir - what you are saying as my 'standards' are actually 'standards' mentioned in scriptures. i again maintain that iam only quoting scriptures and the views i have mentioned are not my personal, but those you can find in scriptures, those which belong to various eminent people over the centuries.

but i can understand the predicament of bramins in today' s world in emphasisng vegeteranism. because in india,and in most of the world, i suspect a very high, brute majority are non vegeterains, and bramins feel isolated . but does that mean we should turn apologetic to the extent that wemust say 'bramins were also meat eaters once?' why are you all forcing me to accept something which the whole world knows is 100% false?

i will give you one small example friend. we all know that that aryan invasion theory is a myth, a falsehood propagated by british to divide the indians and rule india. but this theory has been 'accepted' as truth all over the world and all over india, so much so that textbooks prescribed by all state govts. in india, central govts. in india and many other parts of the world, mention this aryan invasion , potraying bramins as foreigners who invaded india. some apologists even among bramins could easily argue that 'aryan invasion theory is true. let us accept that. there is nothing wrong in that. after all , it is something which took place many years ago. if we try to harp that bramins were not foreigners, we may have to face displeasure of non bramins. since we are in a minority, let us accept the view of majority, even if there are doubts about that'

BTW, i would like to know from all of you what you think about this aryan invasion theory. is it true or false? i personally, see a lot of parallels between aryan invasion theory & the view that 'bramins were meat eaters once'. both of these are lies propagated by 'rationalists' to defame bramins. in particular i would like to know what Mr. KRS thinks about this aryan invasion.

that apart, the world population itself in those days must have been very low indeed. and except in a few handful places, in most of the places, bramins were in a miniscule minority. there was no need for anybody of any religion to eat meat because, due to low population, vegeterain food itself was sufficient. it was only as population increased, that humans , that too non bramins must have turned to meat eating. thus there is no basis for the 'rationalist' propaganda that bramins ate meat in those days.
BTW, i also gather that the main reason why widows shave off their heads is because with their fully grown hair, they will look attractive to other men,and to avoid public glare (DHRISTI as they say in tamil) they do that. i understand this is probably why parents even shave off the head of their children ,so that they look less attractive, so as they do not attract DHRISTI.

Again i repeatedly mention that i do not have any standards of my own. i only follow the standards set by our bramin forefathers, hindu ancestors & founding fathers of indian constitution.

 

[hariharan1972]

Few Questions on Dharma

KRS Sir,

Before the thread digresses too much to the effect that we start asking ourselves "Where are we ?" instead of "Who are we ?", let me shoot some Qs on your second posting.

Sir,

a) You have mentioned that there is a dharma attached to each varna. Is this mandatory ? (shall i use group instead of varna ?)

b) Secondly, if a person belonging to a certain group, fails to uphold the dharma relating to his group, does he get 'disqualified' to continue ?

c) What happens, if for example, a brahmin is desirous of say warfare ? Is their flexibility to do what he wants ? does that mean that he has to lose his right to continue in his group & move to the relevant group ?

d) Critically, how does the lowest group raise above ? Or is it consigned to do the manual chores for ever ? Is the group "prohibited" from say acquiring knowledge or wealth ?

e) Does the allocation of roles represent the esteem in which god holds these groups ?

f) For a minute, if i am part of a KKK group, can i argue that in the allocation of dharma, there is an "implicit" meaning that the lowest group does all the hardwork & the other groups can sit back & enjoy the fruits of labour ? Is this the intent ? Is there no emphasis on everyone having to do "hardwork", meaning "physical labour" ? Doesn't it represent "oppression" then ?

 

[KRS]

Dear Silverfox Ji,

I will take your advice. And move on. Thank you.

Dear Sri Hari Ji,

You pose some excellent questions. Let me try to answer them to the best of my abilities.

a) Varna is a gross social classification. It came in to being at a time when the society was agrarian (or before). During those times, only four functions for the society were operative and functioned along the lines of the four fold classifications, in the respective communities. All the societies around the globe were organized in this manner, because this was a very logical.way to organize. One has to remember that during these times, what started as a system of meritocricy quickly evolved in to Varna by birth. I do not think this started with any malicious intent. But rather for the father in each family, who took pride in his avocation, wanting the same for his boys. (Sorry, I am leaving out the girls here, as back when, the jobs were filled mostly by men with a few notable exceptions. But a Brahmin must do the 'Brahminica' dharma, a Kshatria must do his Dharma and so on. But there are exceptions to this rule, like Vishwamithra, Drona and so on who crossed the Varna divide. But it is very important to remember that these were not ordinary folks. They were on the top of the 'meritocracy' scale with whatever they did. They excelled. So the society had to allow them to cross over and admire their skills. Imagine you were born in to an ordinary Brahmin household, where they put you through almost 30 years of training and you hated it and you fpund yourself not very skilled in other worldly arts either (as the Brahmins were required to know and teach others), what would you have done? You did not cross over.

b) There are only stories of success in our scriptures. I wonder about those Brahmins whose memory power might not have been as good and whose retentive power might not have been that great. You just kept your mouth shut and toiled. Is this bad? I do not know. We have to evaulate each society on their own living times. One can not apply today's ethics and morality to yesterday's living.

c) Again, if you are on the top of the chart, no one could stop you. But if you were not, I am sure there would have been ostracization from one's own community. We have to remember that the problem between Jatis is a recent one. For centuries, everyone belonging to a different Jati was content and happy to belong to the respective Jati. Again, two points of note. Jatis came about from Varnas, because the society became more complex. For example, Brahmins split in to Iyers and Iyengars on the basis of the need for two different Brahmins who knew the two different philosophies and did the rites prescribed for each community. Secondly, the Jatis worked well till India started to get industrialized by the British. The Industrial Revolution in Europe also demolished the 'caste' society there, but with one important differentiation. We will talk about this in our future posting.

d) The paradigm has changed since the invention of the locomotive and the formation of industrialized cities. But, in India, we are only slowly recognizing this change. We will delve in to why this is so? This is the crux of this thread.

e) God created the universe for his 'leela'. And give or take the differences in a few different philosophies, one is part of Him or atleast His most important creation. As long as one is classified as a human being, how can He not love him as He loves everyone else. Because every religion teaches us that we are ALL His children. Again, Varna is governed by Dharma only as for us one's God given aptitude goes. Everything else is man made. We will go in to this also in detail.

f) There is a saying in the west that 'Noblesse Oblige', meaning the privileged ones have the most burden to contribute back to the society. In my second posting, I mentioned that sacrifice is the core of our religion. A Brahmin's whole life is to sacrifice for the well being of others. Only the Shudras were not required to observe and sacrifice. All other Varnas then were created to support the Shudras. They were the ones who were born without any apparent God given gifts (all other Varnas had gifts). Our Seers recognized then that a society can not survive unless their weakest amongst were taken care of. How do I know this? We will quote several Vedic passages. 'Oppression' is a strong word. I would say that 'ignorance' is keeping us from helping our brethren who find themselves in this unfortunate situation (be it a poor member of any Varna).

Sorry for this long posting.

Pranams,
KRS