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What's in "Aarakshan"?: Is Reservation Debate Resuming?

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It depends on the eyes and ears of the beholder how each one wishes to "like" it.

HH seems to be perturbed by the fact that I "liked" member Rishikeshan's post. I liked that post because he was not merely lamenting about reservation, but he calls his community members to help each other and help the poor so that they can overcome this obstacle. What is wrong in it? He should be allowed to lament even if in HH's or the majority point of view reservation is just.
 
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KB, say what you will......Brahmins are not the only people who do not get reservations. Other communities also do not get reservations. Call it retribution, selective history, karma, vidhi, politics, anything...but such communities are not going to get reservations. And reservations are not going to go. That's the bottom line.

HH knows my views on reservations. I have not said that it should go. I have only maintained that the system gets fixed and abuse minimized. It is able to stay as is with all its flaws because of a variety of reasons - one being the ardent support to it despite its flaws by members such as HH.
 
கால பைரவன்;97676 said:
one being the ardent support to it despite its flaws by members such as HH.
Silly, silly, KB, you think the views of members here has any traction, you must be more naive than what you seem.

We express our views, Happy, or I, or you. Our views are our views, nothing more. I love TB.com, but I think even Praveen knows that the influence we have on government policy is between nil and zero.

Please, don't let your emotions run away from your rationality.

......
 
I said RS exists with its flaws because of ardent support of members like HH. I did not say it exists because of ardent support expressed in this forum. If Nara thinks that such ardent supporters only exist within the confines of this forum, I do not know what else to do but laugh it away.

PS: I wonder whether Nara calling others silly or naive is becoming a habit!

It looks funny because by commenting such without understanding my post, he ended up exhibiting his own naivete.
 
கால பைரவன்;97675 said:
HH seems to be perturbed by the fact that I "liked" member Rishikeshan's post. I liked that post because he was not merely lamenting about reservation, but he calls his community members to help each other and help the poor so that they can overcome this obstacle. What is wrong in it? He should be allowed to lament even if in HH's or the majority point of view reservation is just.
With due respect, i cannot be bothered about what you like or don't like.

கால பைரவன்;97676 said:
HH knows my views on reservations. I have not said that it should go. I have only maintained that the system gets fixed and abuse minimized. It is able to stay as is with all its flaws because of a variety of reasons - one being the ardent support to it despite its flaws by members such as HH.

கால பைரவன்;97684 said:
I said RS exists with its flaws because of ardent support of members like HH. I did not say it exists because of ardent support expressed in this forum. If Nara thinks that such ardent supporters only exist within the confines of this forum, I do not know what else to do but laugh it away.

PS: I wonder whether Nara calling others silly or naive is becoming a habit!

It looks funny because by commenting such without understanding my post, he ended up exhibiting his own naivete.
Those who want to keep lamenting about the 'flaws' in reservations can keep doing so. And those who benefit from reservations, will keep doing so. No way the former can become a hassle for the latter, no matter how much they try.

I am out of this debate. Unless an other poster comes along..

Best wishes and bye.
 
No way the former can become a hassle for the latter, no matter how much they try.

Some people have managed to hoodwink the public on how this noble idea of reservation is helping the oppressed people, while in reality the system has been hijacked and is still being hijacked by self serving people who, themselves, indulge(d) in such oppression. These people happily dream that nothing can be done about it. They can think whatever they want, but if I were them, I won't be so cocksure. I feel that their machinations will soon be understood and the system will get corrected eventually.
 
கால பைரவன்;97673 said:
The validity of this statement can be considered to transcend time. These type of arguments gives insight into how discrimination and oppressive methods that were in practice could have been justified in any given time period.



There are all sorts of people.

Some people want to forget history.

Some people want to remember history, but only selectively.

Some people want to distort history.

The degree of conscience varies among people. A person who squirms can be considered to have at least a certain degree of conscience. Sadly, that cannot be said of persons who go to all extent possible to hide truths, speak partial truths, distort history - all with the sole purpose of pointing fingers at others and thereby absolving oneself.

Shri Kalabhairavan,

This topic viz., reservation of seats for professional courses and Government jobs, has made its appearance in this Forum many a time. Always the topic is first brought up by some one who is not happy with the reservation idea itself, or at the least, finds fault with the 69% reservation in TN. Then the arguments, both for and against, follow, on very predictable lines till emotions reach a crescendo and leads to innuendos, name calling, and so on. In the case of this present thread there is a significant change - it started from a movie dealing with reservation but has taken the inevitable course to flow ahead, that's all!

I am a person living outside TN and have, therefore, not been personally affected by the shortcomings of the reservation system in TN for professional courses. But I am very close to TN, with many relatives living in the border districts like KK, Tirunelveli and also in Chennai. I find none of them is very much exercised by the reservation business. Not that they are all huge moneybags or that their kids are absolutely brilliant prodigies. But while some of the kids secure admission to professional colleges which are within their capacity as regards fees and expenditure, others easily branch off to C.A., M.B.A., ICWA and so on and get settled in life reasonably well. What I want to convey is that for the ordinary tabra family, the professional courses - engineering and medical - do not seem to be the only way to survive.

Even granting that the whole reservation system is a noxious one, and that the TN version extremely pernicious (I do not subscribe to this view), we all know that the 27% reservation for OBCs has the approval of the Supreme Court and that the determination of Socially and Educationally Backward Classes (SEBC) is done not solely based on caste and hence, the identification of SEBCs does not violate Article 15(1) of the Constitution, according to Supreme Court.

Under such circumstances, don't you think it is simply futile to go on grumbling about the reservations? We now have the supreme Government enforcing a certain measure which it feels is for social welfare in the country. This is very identical to the brahmin suzerainty which was obtaining earlier and which decreed certain privileges to the higher castes and, at the same time, debarred effectively all social intercourse between those who are today designated as SCs, STs, OBCs, etc., and that rule prevailed. The people who were disadvantaged by the previous dispensation did not complain or raise their voice for centuries (if not millennia) and here we are, grumbling to the very best of our ability after just 60 or so years of a social welfare measure which the government considers good for the country as a whole and is not ready to withdraw.

You say "A person who squirms can be considered to have at least a certain degree of conscience. Sadly, that cannot be said of persons who go to all extent possible to hide truths, speak partial truths, distort history - all with the sole purpose of pointing fingers at others and thereby absolving oneself." If, as you say, the person who squirms does so because of conscience, don't you think the same conscience has to be conceded to the makers of our Constitution, the judges of the Supreme Court who have approved the Reservation system and those people in this forum who hold views with which you are not comfortable? In the olden days of brahmin suzerainty it was rather easy for the brahmins to pronounce decrees of the type now expressed by you above, relating conscience with some particular pov and so on, but today it will be difficult for us brahmins to enforce any dictum of that type; all persons have their conscience and that has to be conceded even if their views and/or actions are not at all to our liking.

Last, I have a small doubt; please do not get offended. Are you by any chance, a non-brahmin beneficiary of reservations, who is interested in assessing the arguments for and against the continuance of the reservation system? I get this doubt because of your moniker which is rather strange in this Forum, and also the manner of your posts which appear to be one of instigating people to plead in favour of continuance of the reservation system.
 
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Even when the court wanted to know how long 'reservation' will continue, there was no answer from the government and the beneficiaries. Even they who have benefited, have good paying jobs and economically and politically successful (and powerful) do not want to get out of their backward status. Mayawati is still a poor dalit oppressed by manuvadis.

This will not change till a political party includes it in its manifesto and gets a two third majority and changes the constitution.

There are many minority institutions (for e.g. engineering and medical colleges in chennai under telugu minority status) which can convert minority quota to management quota when minority seats are not filled. This is one route; there may be others.

Tambrams must help deserving tambram boys and girls in cash and kind to overcome obstacles in admissions and studies.
 
Shri Kalabhairavan,

Another voluminous post addressing me but makes incorrect assumptions about my views and position regarding reservation system and largely tries to answer questions that were not even raised by me.

That reservation has not affected brahmins is a statement with no proof. Even if it were to be true, it is a convenient way to divert this argument. There is a saying that goes like this - "Adversity, if it doesn't kill you, brings the best out of you." People who are pushed against the wall may try that much harder. But it does not alter the very nature of the situation - that it is adverse. Reservation based on caste is adverse to the castes that are discriminated against. No amount of eloquent writing can change this basic fact.

The supreme court's position with regards to reservation to SEBC is cited. However, the same supreme court's directives regarding the 50% ceiling and creamy layer exclusion are conveniently ignored. In any case, my stand is not (was never) against providing reservation to this class -SEBC. My charge is that guidelines are not being followed in identifying and classifying this class and in implementing this reservation. That is the crux of the problem.

I have written earlier that most people, both supporters and opponents of the system tend to attack extreme positions. Sangom, unfortunately, is doing the same.
 
Last, I have a small doubt; please do not get offended. Are you by any chance, a non-brahmin beneficiary of reservations, who is interested in assessing the arguments for and against the continuance of the reservation system? I get this doubt because of your moniker which is rather strange in this Forum, and also the manner of your posts which appear to be one of instigating people to plead in favour of continuance of the reservation system.

Sangom characterizing me as an instigator or a member with vested interest does not offend me.

If anything, that part of his post reveals more about him than me; that he is interested in the caste of a member posting here more than his views. There is another member, Kunjuppu, who was also interested in my personal life more than anything else.

Their outlook is casteist even though they would claim that they are caste-less. Strange!
 
கால பைரவன்;97883 said:
Sangom characterizing me as an instigator or a member with vested interest does not offend me.

If anything, that part of his post reveals more about him than me; that he is interested in the caste of a member posting here more than his views. There is another member, Kunjuppu, who was also interested in my personal life more than anything else.

Their outlook is casteist even though they would claim that they are caste-less. Strange!

KB,

thank you for your kind reference.

i forget, i am remiss, for not remembering my curiosty about your caste and furthermore your religious background. you please refer to that post of mine. thanks.

why the obfuscation

right from sangom, nara, happy hindu, yamaka, dr karthikeyan - all these folks, have no problem identifying their nomeclature identity.

i have repeatedly and repeatedly, exclaimed exposed what i poorvajanmam is.

so, when sangom asks about your antecedents, your failure to answer his query, but to deflect towards me, sort of makes me suspect, that you are a Quisling. someone who does not wish tambrams or this forum well.. sapr?

unlike so many folks who sign on here to a basically open innocent forum, and abuse it.

why dont you answer the same query. let us hear how you are defining your avatar here. ..

thank you.
 
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dear KB,

thank you for your kind reference.

i forget, i am remiss, for not remembering my curiosty about your caste and furthermore your religious background. you please refer to that post of mine. thanks.

why the obfuscation

right from sangom, nara, happy hindu, yamaka, dr karthikeyan - all these folks, have no problem identifying their nomeclature identity.

i have repeatedly and repeatedly, exclaimed exposed what i poorvajanmam is.

so, when sangom asks about your antecedents, your failure to answer his query, but to deflect towards me, sort of makes me suspect, that you are a Quisling. .. that of the traits of so many folks who sign on here to a basically open innocent forum, and abuse it.

i call you an abuser, of the worst kind. kindly disprove me.

i wish to be disproved. ofcourse. folks of your ilk will not take up this challenge. because you sir, are the worst of the amoeba that populate this earth.

why dont you answer the same query. let us hear how you are defining your avatar here. ..

thank you.

You can call me anything you want.

I am not going to respond in kind.

As far as me abusing this forum is concerned, let the forum moderators decide whether this charge is true or not!

My point is why the very same members who wish that this forum remains a general forum open to all members and not be restricted to members of a particular caste or religion are worried about the antecedents of other members at all. It is very strange.
 
கால பைரவன்;97888 said:
You can call me anything you want.

I am not going to respond in kind.

As far as me abusing this forum is concerned, let the forum moderators decide whether this charge is true or not!

My point is why the very same members who wish that this forum remains a general forum open to all members and not be restricted to members of a particular caste or religion are worried about the antecedents of other members at all. It is very strange.

KB,

i have been in this forum a few years. every once in a while, there comes a rascal or trouble maker - usually he wears the garb of ardent devoted fanatic of brahmins, and starts to abuse long standing reformist minded members. usually, in this type of call, the members who are more traditionally inclined, have unwittingly jumped into his bandwagon, only to be fooled by his charlatanism.

.. and we have had folks like sapr333 a christian evangelist, with no love for hindus, under the garb of a 'well wisher' very subtly divided us.

many of your postings border on the first kind of quislings, and for all i care, you can make up any i.d. or history and post it here. or avoid it altogether like your current behaviour.

i think, it is only fair to caution other members, that i think, you are not what you seem to be here. unless ofcourse, we have a long standing member here who can vouch for you. in which case, i will tender my unconditional apologies. ok?
 
Any person who reads this forum can see who is the abuser here.

I had mentioned earlier in another thread that there are some members who treat this forum as their personal fiefdom. Posts in this thread are proofs.

Neither is this forum "innocent" as being claimed (hate-mongering directed against brahmins is carefully constructed here), nor are the self-styled reformists, holy cows. Just like they have the freedom to criticize others, they themselves and their arguments are subject to criticism. Arguing that they are beyond any criticism because they are long standing members is pathetic to say the least. If these long standing members want special privileges and exclusive rights with which they intend to stamp on johnny-come-lately members, they can petition the forum moderators or admin. They may get it because the moderators seem to be very kind to them.

As far as this forum is concerned, I am an independent person. There is no need for anybody to vouch for me. And I am not looking for anyone's approval, least from folks like Kunjuppu.
 
Dear Friends,
I have read a few write-ups written above. Let us consider the fact that as Brahmins, we are all decent, educated well settled, in life. the author of this Forum , has given the liberty o ffits members to initiate topics and post their opinions and all others express their views and all the opinions lead to some final decision and thus, we a get enlightened,. You all would agree that we are all interested in the over all uplift of our lot. so, it becomes our duty to write anything only towards this goal & please, do resist using words that is not helpful to any one,let alone , to the intended purpose.
Let us progress the right direction.

A. Srinivasan(rishikesan)
 
கால பைரவன்;98071 said:
Any person who reads this forum can see who is the abuser here.

I had mentioned earlier in another thread that there are some members who treat this forum as their personal fiefdom. Posts in this thread are proofs.

Neither is this forum "innocent" as being claimed (hate-mongering directed against brahmins is carefully constructed here), nor are the self-styled reformists, holy cows. Just like they have the freedom to criticize others, they themselves and their arguments are subject to criticism. Arguing that they are beyond any criticism because they are long standing members is pathetic to say the least. If these long standing members want special privileges and exclusive rights with which they intend to stamp on johnny-come-lately members, they can petition the forum moderators or admin. They may get it because the moderators seem to be very kind to them.

As far as this forum is concerned, I am an independent person. There is no need for anybody to vouch for me. And I am not looking for anyone's approval, least from folks like Kunjuppu.

KB - You dont need anyone to vouch for you. However I do want to acknowledge and appreciate the dignity with which you have always managed to deal with vile comments directed at you while still making your points. Regards
 
Mayawati and her mentor kanshi ram wanted the whole country ruled by dalits. Ram was sure that dalit vote consolidation will catapult them to delhi in a decade. Mayawati has now realised that without the support of upper castes and manuvadis, her rule even in her home state is doubtful. She is another politician exploiting her own kith and kin to hang on to power and make money.


After Muslims, UP chief minister and BSP supremo Mayawati has demanded reservations in government jobs and educational institutes for poor upper castes on financial grounds.

Mayawati writes to PM, demands for upper caste quota - The Times of India
 
Sangom,

I am a person living outside TN and have, therefore, not been personally affected by the shortcomings of the reservation system in TN for professional courses. But I am very close to TN, with many relatives living in the border districts like KK, Tirunelveli and also in Chennai. I find none of them is very much exercised by the reservation business. Not that they are all huge moneybags or that their kids are absolutely brilliant prodigies. But while some of the kids secure admission to professional colleges which are within their capacity as regards fees and expenditure, others easily branch off to C.A., M.B.A., ICWA and so on and get settled in life reasonably well. What I want to convey is that for the ordinary tabra
[FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]family[/FONT][/FONT], the professional courses - engineering and medical - do not seem to be the only way to survive.


You have given enough material for the acid secretion of the brahmin bashers to reach a level when the intestines are completely eaten away by the acid.Lol!
 
Shri Kala Bhairavan,

I am with you and any one would be who could know how politically manupulated reservation systems have hindered the future prospects of many Brahmin and other forward Caste people. Brahmins are the most effected.

Many tend to consider their own family and extended family relatives to determine how Brahmins are not bothered of the reservation systems and that all the brahmins community people are successfully making their own way out for better and are prospering.


Many tend to deney the fact that 1000s of everage and above average Brahmin boys of low and middle class family [who give priority for women (their sisters/daughters) empowerment by all the ways and means (that indeed we boys have accepted as the must, graciously for her future security as a girl)] have been seriously affected without professional education. All these boys in this highly competitive envirnment are having a big question mark in their life, right from better career prospects upto their marriage.

In my social circle for the last 15 years, many NB Forward caste people who all are too subjected to the sufferings of reservation systems are accepting the ground reality of Brahmin sutdent's (boys/girls) as the group at the most receiving end.

I don't understand why in this present secular India, influenced by globalized competitive environment, some tend to ignore the gravity of the negative impact, this unscrupulous political tactics of reservation systems, based on caste is posing on the growth of India. And in personal level how this reservation systems are continuing to spoil the life of many bright students of not so well to do families.


AFA I am concerned, the reservations in Government jobs and educational institutions should be purly on basic merit cut off and financial standing, in this present India/globalized environment.


 
Framers of our constitution wanted reservation to be adopted only for 50 years, roughly three generations. Reservation net is widening trapping and suffocating the original depressed castes/groups.

Positive approach of expanding infrastructure and facilities is not even discussed.

Shri Kala Bhairavan,

AFA I am concerned, the reservations in Government jobs and educational institutions should be purly on basic merit cut off and financial standing, in this present India/globalized environment.

 
Series on Slavery: Part 6

In series on slavery - part 4 (post 144) I touched upon the reasons why the british thot it appropriate to take caste-based census. In this post we shall deal with various court cases and varna fights.

Ambedkar lists the criteria used by the courts in pronouncements regarding Varnas, classified in two categories (1949:165):
1) Ritual: Sacred thread, ceremony of Upanayana, performance of homa, use of a caste name, and following customs.
2) Consciousness: 'General repute' of a caste, (self-) consciousness of a community, acceptance of that consciousness by other caste.

According to Bharat Jhunjhunwala* the latter criteria (point 2) is indicative that varna of a community was quite flexible. Things merely depended on how one community perceived another. Apparently point (1) could always be adopted by any community. Which is why we see so many sanskritisation attempts by various communities.

Since courts recognised the use of caste name, hence there were numerous attempts by various communities to change their name into something better. Examples: (1) Bengali Chandalas changed their name to Namasudra in 1911 and later in 1921 asked to be known as "Namasudra Brahmin". (2) Chasi Khaibarta in Bengal and eastern Bihar changed their name to "Mahisya" in 1921, in order to distinguish themselves from the Jalia Khaibarta, and later in 1931 asked to be listed as Kshatriya (Imtiaz Ahmad, 1971).

Even if anyone protested (like vellalas against nadars) the court would take cognisance in allocating varna only if points (1) and (2) were provable.

There were strict legal requirements for proving customs follwoed by any community in courts (refer to William Mccormack in The Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Volumes 93-94).

So, what becomes apparent is that brahmins alone were in the position to testify and dispense both points (1) and (2) for any given community.

Marc Galanter**, among others, showed castes were recognised as judicial entities in British India with the power to sue and be sued, and the administration of Hindu Personal Law involved the courts in assigning places to actual castes in the four-fold varna system. So varna allocation was indeed important, a matter of social prestige and pride, and part of the Hindu Personal Law at that time.

Census operations collected caste data, and so people used it as an occasion to improve their position in the social hierarchy by assuming high sounding names, and advancing claims to a position higher than that usually assigned to them in the social scale.

In the words of Ghurye,

"Various ambitious castes quickly perceived the chances of raising their status. They invited conferences of their members and formed council to take steps to see that their status was recorded in the way they thought was honourable to them. Others that could not but resent this ’stealthy’ procedure to advance, equally began to controvert their claims. Thus a campaign of mutual recriminations was set on foot. The leaders of all but the highest castes frankly looked upon the census as an opportunity for pressing for obtaining some recognition of social claims which were denied by persons of castes higher than their own."

Now the whole question is why did the British accept the Varna model as a point of class and status and Hindu Personal Law? This is a point i shall not deal with. However, it has been noted by some writers that british following the varna model tended to solidify and make more rigid, caste hierarchy and in some areas at least, Brahmin influence and power (Imtiaz Ahmad, 1971).

We shall see court cases of a sample number of castes across India. Please note there are numerous papers on various court cases. I will be dealing with specific cases only. In the course of the posts i will also be mentioning notes on the origins of various castes. Those who want to know about a specific caste or a spefic court case, please ask for it.

...to be contd.

Ref:
*Bharat Jhunjunwala. Varna vyavastha: governance through caste system, Rawat Publications, 1999, p.102.
**Marc Galanter, "Law and Caste in Modern India", Asian Survey 3 (11), 1963, pp. 544-59.
 
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