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What's in "Aarakshan"?: Is Reservation Debate Resuming?

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sangom

Well-known member
Y,

The movie justifies the anti-reservation movement. Hence all these protests and bans despite one High Court clearance.

I feel GOI should either ban the film in accordance with Parliaments views about the need to continue the reservations or, it should revoke the reservations and allow the film; a double-faced strategy is not good.
 
The movie justifies the anti-reservation movement. Hence all these protests and bans despite one High Court clearance.

I feel GOI should either ban the film in accordance with Parliaments views about the need to continue the reservations or, it should revoke the reservations and allow the film; a double-faced strategy is not good.

The debate on reservation is often not an 'aye' or 'nah' debate.

I haven't seen the movie, but based on few reviews that I have read, the movie does not seem to take a clear anti-reservation position. Given that the courts themselves regularly entertain petitions on several aspects of reservation including the quantum of reservation, creamy layer exclusion, economic criterion etc etc, there is no justification to ban the movie. Of course, objectionable portrayals, if any, can be censored and removed.
 
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Nara

Well-known member
....I feel GOI should either ban the film in accordance with Parliaments views about the need to continue the reservations or, it should revoke the reservations and allow the film; a double-faced strategy is not good.
Sangom sir, why must GOI take cognizance of a movie in framing public policy?

Banning movies because we don't agree with a view, or even a majority does not, is a very bad idea. Dismantling government programs based on one movie is also a very bad idea.

In any case, I read that the movie producers have said it is not anti-reservation at all.

Cheers!
 

srinikarthik

New member
All,

I have seen the movie. Though there are some very direct dialogue regarding the caste system, but I for one did not find anything that could cause a ban. The entire movie is based on the educational system that is prevelent in india.

Just wonder why the movie is banned, maybe because of the name.
 
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OP
Y

Yamaka

New member
I have not seen this movie, as yet...but some of the reviews say that it is MORE about the commercialization of education in India than about the Reservation per se.

I object banning movies or books in general... but, again, if the authorities fear for law and order problems because of controversial movies/books, they need to take some action, like removing part of the dialogue or conversation. I guess that's what has happened with this movie, according to the Hindu article cited above.

On Reservation:

My reading is as per the latest census, about 70% of India's population is considered SC plus ST plus OBC, and in most States these groups have reservation of about 55% of the seats (in Govt Colleges). The rest 45% of the seats are given to the 30% of the people who are considered upper class or forward communities. This does not seem to be that discriminatory to me.

But, it appears that lots of the reserved seats go to affluent SC/ST/OBC of the second/third generation kids of these underclass.. This is an implementation problem, which needs to be addressed legislatively or via courts.

It seems in this movie our Super Star AB is advocating FOR the Reservations, but with appropriate safe guards against abuse.

Therefore, this movie should NOT to be banned... this must be screened AS IS without any modifications at least in TN.

Wait & watch.
 
My reading is as per the latest census, about 70% of India's population is considered SC plus ST plus OBC, and in most States these groups have reservation of about 55% of the seats (in Govt Colleges). The rest 45% of the seats are given to the 30% of the people who are considered upper class or forward communities. This does not seem to be that discriminatory to me.

This is a classic misunderstanding. The rest of the seats are NOT GIVEN to upper class or forward communities. The rest of the seats form what is called "open quota" and are filled as per ranking criteria determined by various exams established by respective educational boards. These open quota seats are available to all students irrespective of caste or religion.
 

Nara

Well-known member
....I object banning movies or books in general... but, again, if the authorities fear for law and order problems because of controversial movies/books, they need to take some action, like removing part of the dialogue or conversation.
Y, I agree with most of your analysis, but I simply cannot acquiesce to this. Short of yelling fire in a crowded theater, there is no justification for banning free speech. Law and order problem does not fall in this category, it is just an excuse, an excuse that can be used against anybody who opposes the establishment.

I support the reservation system to the last of my bones, creamy layer and all -- kirumi layer as MK says -- but I cannot but support the free speech rights of those who oppose reservation, not that this movie is about that.

Cheers!
 
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Yamaka

New member
கால பைரவன்;92414 said:
This is a classic misunderstanding. The rest of the seats are NOT GIVEN to upper class or forward communities. The rest of the seats form what is called "open quota" and are filled as per ranking criteria determined by various exams established by respective educational boards. These open quota seats are available to all students irrespective of caste or religion.

Fine, I see your point.

My wife says that many times, not enough SC/ST/OBC applicants/aspirants apply for the 55% of the seats, and these 'vacant' seats are added to the Open Quota.

Is this true?

If these Reserved people have too much demand, then how many are competing in the Open Quota?

Do you have the data?

Given a chance, how will YOU reform the Reservation system in the Govt Colleges?

Cheers.
 
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Yamaka

New member
Y, I agree with most of your analysis, but I simply cannot acquiesce to this. Short of yelling fire in a crowded theater, there is no justification for banning free speech. Law and order problem does not fall in this category, it is just an excuse, an excuse that can be used against anybody who opposes the establishment.

I support the reservation system to the last of my bones, creamy layer and all -- kirumi layer as MK says -- but I cannot but support the free speech rights of those who oppose reservation, not that this movie is about that.

Cheers!

Dear Nara:

I hear you.

When most countries banned "Satanic Versus" by Salmon Rushdie, I opposed the ban vehemently... but when someone tried to publish a lampooned caricature of Prophet Muhammed, I said "We need caution".

I support Anna Hazare's Hunger Strike against Corruption in India... but I say, "Do it without creating a mayhem as Ramdev did at Ramlila grounds where there was fire and likelihood of massive loss of lives"

For we love our Freedom and the sanctity of lives!

Cheers.
 
My wife says that many times, not enough SC/ST/OBC applicants/aspirants apply for the 55% of the seats, and these 'vacant' seats are added to the Open Quota.

Is this true?

I mentioned earlier that the debate on reservation is often not a simple 'aye' or 'nah' debate.

Your wife is making a pretty generic statement that is known to be false in many cases.

For example, in TN, more than 80% of seats in open quota are cornered by communities classified as OBC. What does it say about the classification? And this is not a recent phenomenon. This has been the case for past several years, as pointed out in Voice council vs State of TN case that came to supreme court back in 1996!

Yamaka said:
But, it appears that lots of the reserved seats go to affluent SC/ST/OBC of the second/third generation kids of these underclass.. This is an implementation problem, which needs to be addressed legislatively or via courts.

Around the same time frame in the mid 90's, the supreme court ordered exclusion of creamy layer from job reservations in TN. TN govt has not implemented it until this date. The dravidian parties do not believe in rule of law. So, you see, the problem cannot be addressed via courts.

In TN and in many other states, reservation is not about social justice. The classification is adhoc and purely done according to the whims and fancies of politicians. It is a discriminatory system and serves as a fine example of - to borrow your words - "tyranny of majority".
 

tbs

Well-known member
hi
whole aarakshan issue just for vote bank....even govt is ready to give reservation for muslims and christian.....except everybody wants

aarakshan.......reservation policy had some meanings...the meena caste.....in rajasthan under reservation category.....they are

multi millioners now....still under reserved category....maximum second /third generations are either IAS/IPS officers under

reservation quota....aarakshan meaningless in present day......still in democracy....we need votes....so its vote bank for

politicians...........


regards
tbs
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Fine, I see your point.

My wife says that many times, not enough SC/ST/OBC applicants/aspirants apply for the 55% of the seats, and these 'vacant' seats are added to the Open Quota.

Is this true?
This issue was also covered in the movie Aarakshan. In that movie they show a Pandit boy missing out on admission because a SC/ST student qualified under open quota -- this made one seat lesser in the open quota (this means if a SC/ST student qualifies under open quota, and if there are no takers in the SC/ST quota, then the SC/SC quota seats will go unfilled, but will not be given to other candidates).

If these Reserved people have too much demand, then how many are competing in the Open Quota?

Do you have the data?
Here is a list of the so-called forward castes by state -- Forward caste - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Looks like 'forward castes' in south is very less (27% in Karnataka, 28.7% in Andhra, 12% in Tamilnadu and 26% in Kerala). Considering that am now thinking reserved seats may actually be less..

Given a chance, how will YOU reform the Reservation system in the Govt Colleges?
Nice Q Yamaka. Everyone shd ask this to themselves. I liked the movie Aarakshan very much. The movie seems to convey that remedial free classes for the poorer sections may do the trick and make them capable of competing at an equitable platform. However, everyone knows the prejudice faced by self-declared 'dalits'.

IMO, the youth for equality would have done better (and achieved their objective of removing caste-based reservations) IF they had agitated and asked for equality in hindu religion. Hopefully they will be motivated enough to do that in future.

One question everyone should ask is -- why do we allow students to get admission under management quota (donation seats) but are opposed to caste-based reservations ??

Looks like those who study under management quotas are usually forward-caste students who do not get caste-based reservations. Such students are infact incompetent rejects who failed to score above the cut-off and hence resorted to donation seats (management quota).

We tolerate incompetent students studying under management quotas (donation seats) but we are opposed to caste-based reservations. Why??

Yamaka, the movie Aarakshan is a must watch - i suggest you please try to see it. Wish Prakash Jha had not deleted some dialog stuff. The urban youth who know nothing about old occupations, erstwhile discrimination would come to their senses.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
கால பைரவன்;92572 said:
For example, in TN, more than 80% of seats in open quota are cornered by communities classified as OBC. What does it say about the classification? And this is not a recent phenomenon. This has been the case for past several years, as pointed out in Voice council vs State of TN case that came to supreme court back in 1996!
Interesting point. May i know some details like --
1) which are the communities classified as OBC which cornered 80% of open seats in say the year 2006 or say in the year 2010 ?
2) since when has such cornering been happening? I request you to produce some details from the Voice Council vs State of TN on this issue please.

Around the same time frame in the mid 90's, the supreme court ordered exclusion of creamy layer from job reservations in TN. TN govt has not implemented it until this date. The dravidian parties do not believe in rule of law. So, you see, the problem cannot be addressed via courts.

In TN and in many other states, reservation is not about social justice. The classification is adhoc and purely done according to the whims and fancies of politicians. It is a discriminatory system and serves as a fine example of - to borrow your words - "tyranny of majority".
Another interesting point. We had already discussed in this forum about reservations. Shri Nara had also written to an academician whose email he reproduced in this forum. The academician had also felt that steps were still less and more needs to be done.

To say that the "classification" for reservations "is adhoc and done on the whims and fancies of politicians" is far from the truth. Suggestions for reservations are taken into consideration by the government after instituting a commission (like mandal commission) and goes thru certain processes before being implemented.

Politicians may interfere with things for vote-bank politics but they cannot overlook demands of the public , do something totally different against people's wishes, or do things without peoples' support. The same holds true for corruption also. Corruption in government exists because people support(ed) it (for so long)...
 
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Iyyarooraan

Well-known member
Aarakshan!

In Mumbai city proper there are a few minority-run schools who are not filling up the minority quota but are willing to sell those seats. The organization of Minority Commission is busy to strengthen itself!!
 

B.Krishnamurthy

Active member
Reference Post No.13 above.
It is not factually correct to state that only incompetent forward caste students opt for management quota seats.
The present system of counselling does not allow a student to get into a college of his/her choice or the course of their choice.This privilege is available to very few meritorious students who come in the top order.
Really competent students from forward,BC/OBC/ST/SC candidates resort to this practice of trying for a seat in the course of their choice and to study in the college of their choice through the management Quota.
The system has been ably evolved by Political pundits to ensure that parents take loans just to satisfy the ambition of their wards.

PS:- there are more than 50,000 seats remaining unfilled under counselling Sytem in this current year in all the Engg colleges in Tamilnadu as per reports in Newspapapers.Then why incompetent students from forward communities have not taken this opportunity to study in Engg college.
2.The artcle 'Quantity vs Quality' in Today's paper " The Hindu" under Editorial/opinion is also worth reading.
 
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B.Krishnamurthy

Active member
Reference post no.15 above.
The speech of retired Supreme court Judge Shri.Thomas in Kerala presiding as a Chief Guest in RSS Function in the presence of
the top leader of RSS shri.Bhagvat in the first week of August,2011 is really historic.He has commented about
'Secularism' and minority education institutions.The speech is worth reading.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Krishnamurthy sir, i moved out of the education scene in india long ago. My comments were based on what i saw in the movie Aarakshan.

In that movie they show Amitabh Bachchan being talked into admitting a student (prateik babbar) who scored just around 50 % into an undergraduate degree course of his choice in a private college.

I do agree its not factually correct to state that "only" incompetent "forward caste students" opt for management quota seats. However it remains true that students can choose college / course of choice if they score good marks (high above cut off). Those who do not score that high do not get to choose their college / course of choice.

Sir, only those who cannot get thru such a system end up seeking donation seats. Which would in a way make them some sort of incompetant rejects when compared against those who are able to get into a college/course of their choice.

This ofcourse applies to OBC / MBC / SC / ST, etc (all those reserved categories) also. In each reserved-category, students who are poor scorers do not get to choose college / course of choice and end up seeking donation seats.

As regards your last para, looks like these days in other places (like delhi) also students are giving engineering a miss, and instead going for subjects like economics, humanities, banking, accountancy, etc...
 
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Interesting point. May i know some details like --
1) which are the communities classified as OBC which cornered 80% of open seats in say the year 2006 or say in the year 2010 ?
2) since when has such cornering been happening? I request you to produce some details from the Voice Council vs State of TN on this issue please.

In this case, Counsel for voice questioned the move behind reserving a very high percentage of seats (69%, 50% for OBC), higher than the 50% ceiling recommended by the supreme court, given the fact that students from OBC communities (data presented for years 1994 to 1996) were already cornering a significant percentage of seats in open quota. This particular case did not go into dis-aggregation of quota utilization.

To say that the "classification" for reservations "is adhoc and done on the whims and fancies of politicians" is far from the truth. Suggestions for reservations are taken into consideration by the government after instituting a commission (like mandal commission) and goes thru certain processes before being implemented.

It is your observation that is far from the truth. Just because a commission was constituted, it does not mean that its recommendations were always followed. Consider the fate of Sattanathan commission and Ambashankar commission, which gathered dis-aggregation of quota utilization in the 70's and mid 80's. Both of them found out that a handful of OBC communities (out of more than 200) cornered 75 to 80% quota seats and recommended removal of creamy layer. Successive TN govts simply ignored these recommendations. Because these data cause much irritation to the govt, it simply stopped appointing these commissions. 25 years have lapsed since the appointment of last commission. The same is true for other states.

The classification of OBC was solely left to the discretion of the state govts. These govts neither follow requirements identified by Mandal commission nor do they follow supreme court directives.

Politicians may interfere with things for vote-bank politics but they cannot overlook demands of the public , do something totally different against people's wishes, or do things without peoples' support.

The reality is that the politicians control data available to the public and hence they control public perception and consequently public opinion. It works for them because people will do anything that gets them exclusive benefits. That is why I said this is akin to "tyranny of majority".
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
கால பைரவன்;92854 said:
In this case, Counsel for voice questioned the move behind reserving a very high percentage of seats (69%, 50% for OBC), higher than the 50% ceiling recommended by the supreme court, given the fact that students from OBC communities (data presented for years 1994 to 1996) were already cornering a significant percentage of seats in open quota. This particular case did not go into dis-aggregation of quota utilization.
Thankyou for the info.

As regards the "cornering" (shouldn't the word be "qualifying"?) would like to know, if those who qualified under open quota are indeed classified in the government lists as OBC or not (since "OBC" is a indirect word used for 'Shudras').

As you must be aware not all such 'shudras' come under BC / OBC / MBC, etc categories. There are 'Shudras' who unfortunately come under 'forward caste' category also. So when you say OBCs "cornering" seats, who are these "OBCs"?

Instead of setting a 50% blanket ceiling, shouldn't the Supreme Court take into consideration that the number of Forward Castes vary in different states ? In Tamil Nadu, the number of Forward Castes seem very less indeed. If that be the case, is it not reasonable to allocate a greater proportion of seats to low castes?

It is your observation that is far from the truth. Just because a commission was constituted, it does not mean that its recommendations were always followed. Consider the fate of Sattanathan commission and Ambashankar commission, which gathered dis-aggregation of quota utilization in the 70's and mid 80's. Both of them found out that a handful of OBC communities (out of more than 200) cornered 75 to 80% quota seats and recommended removal of creamy layer. Successive TN govts simply ignored these recommendations. Because these data cause much irritation to the govt, it simply stopped appointing these commissions. 25 years have lapsed since the appointment of last commission. The same is true for other states.
When you say "adhoc" and "whims and fancies" of politicians, i suppose perhaps you had just the creamy layer in mind (??). I agree there is unequal development of backward classes, the creamy layer benefits more while the benefits percolate to the needy very slowly. I also remember Sattanathan commission. It used to be talked about by the supporters of Youth for Equality (YFE). I used to be a vociferous supporter of YFE (a couple of known people were involved in self-immolation bids also - against the mandal commission though back then it was not a formal organization of YFE).

Sir, i suppose we must remember how the whole scene of reservations developed. In this we cannot overlook 'caste-fights' of the colonial period. There are some colonial writers who express surprise that a "ritually low caste" like reddies could be land owners.

Unfortunately, it was brahmins who got to decide who is low caste or not. Everyone wanted to be "forward-caste" then, but brahmins kept going to courts to prove them as "low castes". So as "low castes", what other way could they have, to get a foothold in government jobs, except by seeking reservations ?

Also sir, after states were reorganized in 1956, a government order was issued that all castes are categorized as backward except brahmins. But this got squashed by some high courts in some places (like in karnataka).

Then came the GO order in 1959 that all castes except brahmins, baniyas, kshatriyas, kayasthas were to be considered "backward". This too got squashed in some states like karnataka. Then various states instituted their own commissions to identify socially and educationally backward people.

I suppose it would be right for each state to implement quotas as per the population and situations of the state.

The classification of OBC was solely left to the discretion of the state govts. These govts neither follow requirements identified by Mandal commission nor do they follow supreme court directives.
Nothing wrong with that...

The reality is that the politicians control data available to the public and hence they control public perception and consequently public opinion. It works for them because people will do anything that gets them exclusive benefits. That is why I said this is akin to "tyranny of majority".
Atleast now there is Right to Information (RTI) Act...but then census data is free....

Regards
 
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As regards the "cornering" (shouldn't the word be "qualifying"?) would like to know, if those who qualified under open quota are indeed classified in the government lists as OBC or not (since "OBC" is a indirect word used for 'Shudras').

As you must be aware not all such 'shudras' come under BC / OBC / MBC, etc categories. There are 'Shudras' who unfortunately come under 'forward caste' category also. So when you say OBCs "cornering" seats, who are these "OBCs"?

You are mixing up different terms here. When I use the term OBC, I ONLY refer to communities that are classified as other backward classes. Your confusion stems from the fact that you assume BC to be backward castes, while in fact, it is backward classes. One need not be even a hindu to be OBC. For example, in Kerala, almost all muslims are classified OBC. In Tamil Nadu, most christians and muslims are classified as OBC.

Instead of setting a 50% blanket ceiling, shouldn't the Supreme Court take into consideration that the number of Forward Castes vary in different states ? In Tamil Nadu, the number of Forward Castes seem very less indeed. If that be the case, is it not reasonable to allocate a greater proportion of seats to low castes?

:)

Once again, you are confusing backward caste with backward class. It is the govt that says percentage of OBCs is high. Truth is otherwise, as revealed by the large percentage of seats cornered by communities that are classified as OBC in open quota
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
கால பைரவன்;92862 said:
You are mixing up different terms here. When I use the term OBC, I ONLY refer to communities that are classified as other backward classes. Your confusion stems from the fact that you assume BC to be backward castes, while in fact, it is backward classes. One need not be even a hindu to be OBC. For example, in Kerala, almost all muslims are classified OBC. In Tamil Nadu, most christians and muslims are classified as OBC.

Once again, you are confusing backward caste with backward class. It is the govt that says percentage of OBCs is high. Truth is otherwise, as revealed by the large percentage of seats cornered by communities that are classified as OBC in open quota
Thankyou for clarifying you are referring to those groups which are indeed classified as Backward in government lists (and not using the term "OBC" to refer to 'Shudras' under Forward category).

Well, (in some circles) the term Backward "Class" is an indirect term to refer to the Shudra "Class", i suppose.

Yes sir, am quite aware one does not need to be a hindu to be categorized "Backward".

If OBCs are qualifying (getting so many seats as you say) under open quota it only means the OBCs are more competitive than Forward Castes (FCs) i suppose.

Maybe the scenario of OBCs qualifying under Open category is somewhat unpalatable to some who beleive in caste-superiority perhaps. That is, to people who cannot imagine that in open competition under open category, OBCs are getting more seats than the FCs.

But am not really surprised. I know of a few people who manage to fake sub-caste and get a fake BC certificate, but they score so very well that they finally have no use for such caste certificates (they end up qualifying under open category, though not all have got college / course of choice).

Regards.
 
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[B said:
கால பைரவன்[/B]]The classification of OBC was solely left to the discretion of the state govts. These govts neither follow requirements identified by Mandal commission nor do they follow supreme court directives.
Nothing wrong with that...

I strongly disagree. Reservation to OBCs cannot be provided solely based on caste. It is unconstitutional. The beneficiaries have to be socially and educationally backward. Mandal commission identified eleven criteria (including economic backwardness). The public have the right to know on what basis a community is classified as backward. Sadly, neither does the govt follow a standard procedure nor does it apply recommendations of its own commissions.

Atleast now there is Right to Information (RTI) Act...but then census data is free....

A govt that is interested in social justice would make this data automatically available to the public. Instead, it goes to great lengths to hide this data. That tells a lot about its intent.

If OBCs are qualifying (getting so many seats as you say) under open quota it only means the OBCs are more competitive than Forward Castes (FCs) i suppose.

That is, if a community or few communities classified as FC dominate, it would be considered "oppression", whereas if communities classified as OBC dominate, it would be called "competitiveness". I sense a bit of hypocrisy here. The truth is, for the really backward, it does not make a difference.

Maybe the scenario of OBCs qualifying under Open category is somewhat unpalatable to some who beleive in caste-superiority perhaps. That is, to people who cannot imagine that in open competition under open category, OBCs are getting more seats than the FCs.

People of all hues and colors exist. That cannot be cited to justify a discriminatory system.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
கால பைரவன்;93059 said:
I strongly disagree.
I do agree with you sir. But what can be done now? Any suggestions?

Unfortunately it remains a fact that caste was the criterion to judge social backwardness in the colonial period.

A "ritually low" group was considered to be "socially low". I have no idea how and why did 'brahmins' of the colonial period present such a fait accompli to judge groups of people in courts set up by englishmen.

To me personally it feel maybe colonial period 'brahmins' wanted social power to self-promote themselves and demote others as much as possible, perhaps in the wish that they always find favors and jobs in the colonial government (or perhaps they found under colonial rule they could popularize the concept of smrithis and varnas, and go around assigning varnas to everybody. The general population was foolish in their part, because they ran after varna labels while even cooking up tall origin theories).

Anyways such claims had a derimental effect. We are faced with numerous records of people adopting practices which came to be dubbed "brahmanical practices" (such as donning the sacred thread). And yet they were not accepted as dvijas by courts. The case of the Kayasthas of Bengal (who were repetedly judged by the calcutta high court as shudras) is the most intriguing case to me (bcoz kayasthas elsewhere were returned as brahmins or kshatriyas). In the Bengali Kayastha case there was no blood shed (like in the case of Komatis versus Niyogis). It was simply a fight of wits, with each group doing everything in its capacity to be decided in their favor.

Reservation to OBCs cannot be provided solely based on caste.
Here you are using the term OBC to refer to 'shudras'?

It is unconstitutional. The beneficiaries have to be socially and educationally backward. Mandal commission identified eleven criteria (including economic backwardness). The public have the right to know on what basis a community is classified as backward. Sadly, neither does the govt follow a standard procedure nor does it apply recommendations of its own commissions.

A govt that is interested in social justice would make this data automatically available to the public. Instead, it goes to great lengths to hide this data. That tells a lot about its intent.
No sir you are mistaken. Communities are indeed considered socially backward based on certain reasons. Various commission reports are available on the net. You can look up Nara sir's old posts on this also.

That is, if a community or few communities classified as FC dominate, it would be considered "oppression", whereas if communities classified as OBC dominate, it would be called "competitiveness". I sense a bit of hypocrisy here. The truth is, for the really backward, it does not make a difference.
I suppose that's relative, depending on where we come from (??)

People of all hues and colors exist. That cannot be cited to justify a discriminatory system.
I very much agree caste-based reservations are discriminatory. IMO we need to address this problem from within the hindu religion. But then, proactive steps of inclusiveness are looked down upon as 'anti-brahmin' by orthodox people. So what other options are left? Please put yourself in the shoes of a dalit, someone who is continuoulsy shamed for his caste. Then please tell me what options are possible..

Regards.
 
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