what is Tamil Brahmin "CULTURE"?

[Raji Ram]

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Only change in the title is going to be old wine in new bottle!

The degrading the caste will still be there, with a new title. hwell:

 

[palindrome]

Shri KRS,


I mentioned about Brahmin Genes in terms of "basal lineage" (genetic). It is commonly understood that the behavioral, thinking, learning, inclinations, habit etc..etc. patterns are related to genes. Even if a Brahmin orphan boy is adopted by a Muslim Man and brought up as a Muslim, one can see his genetic qualities in some way or other.

Ah well, am reminded of the usual pet beliefs that (1) Brahmins had an exclusive descent (wondering who the first Brahmin was) (2) Brahmins are Devas, hence pure, divine, (whilst the rest are asuras and evil). (3) Brahmins are sattvik (there's even sattvik genes joke coming out of here) :doh:

Source Wikipedia..

Lineage (genetic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basal lineage

In genetics a basal lineage is a genetic lineage that connects a variant allele (type) possessed by a more common ancestor that evolves into two descendant variants possessed by a branch ancestor. An example of a basal lineage is the lineage between mitochondrial 'Eve' and L0 or L1. Basal lineages may have types that are no longer represented in the extant population, only being defined by derivative types such as CRS for L1

What has basal lineage got to do with whatever you imagine to be Brahmin exclusivity of genes?

I am glad that you feel so pathetic about me and restricted yourself from bringing this up so as to not to expose me as an idiot among other intellectual members.

No Ravi, please do not misunderstand. Sometimes unknowingly we make all sorts of comments. That's ok. But to be stuck on preconceived ideas and pass it off on genetics is not a good idea. For all you know, some people out there not only formed an opinion about Brahmins based on your post (and let me assure you its not a good one), but it also asks for one to become giggling matter. Please take care.

 

[C RAVI]

ravi,

i believe otherwise.

in two generations, people who have had no history of education in their lineage, in tamil nadu, are giving the other communities a good run for their money. just look at the profile of some of those high mark achievers in state board exams. across the board representation.

many of the soviet scientists of the previous era, had lineage, of peasantry, much like our own scheduled castes - ie tied to the land, as serfs and servants, and no education. they got preferential treatment post the russian revolution, and their sons, and daughters ended generals and scientists...all within one generation.

i think, a good education, training, motiviation and inclination goes a long way to success. i dont think genes has anything to do with it.

all that is wikipedia is not true. it is a reference point, and that is all.

How come selective wikipedia info is true and selectively not?


What can be changed and achieved by learning and practice is a different matter. And I do know how the changes impacts the human species, either for advancement or degradation.

In the same line only I was telling that learning and practicing a different culture would exhaust the Brahmin culture. And TB people who relish the culture would not find any validity in mocking on its culture and devaluing the very culture as zilch.

That's why I said, the collectively acquired cultural qualities/tendencies/inclination of TB genes is what our culture is and it has its uniqueness and specialties and would ever remain so as long as there is collective efforts towards retaining it.

But, I got to know that making such a Gene reference I had made myself a zilch in comparison to all other intellectual members with strong scientific/biological knowledge.

And I sincerely thank Shri.KRS who kept silent until Mr.Biswa found my stupidity in my post referring to Genes, only to make sure that my stupidity is not exposed. I am touched with his love towards me.

 

[amala]

I tend to quote Wikipedia a lot as its the easiest info to get. But Wikipedia is not at all the authority or at least not the sole authority for important stuff. It is after all open source and anyone can make entries. So some info may not be verified and even be incorrect.

 

[palindrome]

K Sir and Amala, What Ravi quoted about Basal lineage is right. But am wondering what connection does that have with stuff he imagines (ie, Brahmin exclusivity with genes determining behavioral, thinking, learning, inclinations, habit etc..etc. patterns).

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The same genetic theory and mtDNA studies have been quoted before right in this forum to justify dravidianist racial hatemongering against brahmins. I wonder why no one expressed any indignation then?!

It has become a feature nowadays to gang up against anyone who has something positive to write about brahmins or brahmin culture. It is quite sad!

 

[palindrome]

Ravi, I make an open offer to you. Please order your Comprehensive Genome (Comprehensive Ancestral Tests) here.Then please send me a PM with your bank details. I shall reimburse the cost. Then let us discuss your results openly on this forum. Hope that will help dispel some doubts you have.

 

[palindrome]

The same genetic theory and mtDNA studies have been quoted before right in this forum to justify dravidianist racial hatemongering against brahmins. I wonder why no one expressed any indignation then?!

Please produce the relevant posts.

It has become a feature nowadays to gang up against anyone who has something positive to write about brahmins or brahmin culture. It is quite sad!

Positive means positive. Not something based on falsity.

 

[C RAVI]

The same genetic theory and mtDNA studies have been quoted before right in this forum to justify dravidianist racial hatemongering against brahmins. I wonder why no one expressed any indignation then?!

It has become a feature nowadays to gang up against anyone who has something positive to write about brahmins or brahmin culture. It is quite sad!

YES!! And say that he/she is ashamed by the stupidity of a fellow member who was wrongly assumed as a learned member. LOL!!

 

[prasad1]

It has become a feature nowadays to gang up against anyone who has something positive to write about brahmins or brahmin culture. It is quite sad!

Mr. Bhirawan,
This Victim mentality does you no justice. insensitive and ignorant Statements can not be defended by saying that there were other stupid comments which were not challenged.

I too have opposed BB in the past, and will oppose again if I see it.

One can not accept totally wrong statement just because it was made by a brahmin.

 

[palindrome]

YES!! And say that he/she is ashamed by the stupidity of a fellow member who was wrongly assumed as a learned member. LOL!!

Ravi my offer to you in post # 82 stands valid for as long as you want. Let me know your decision. Additionally, am expecting an answer for this question: What has basal lineage got to do with stuff you imagine (ie, Brahmin exclusivity with genes determining "behavioral, thinking, learning, inclinations, habit etc..etc. patterns").

 

[kunjuppu]

How come selective wikipedia info is true and selectively not?


What can be changed and achieved by learning and practice is a different matter. And I do know how the changes impacts the human species, either for advancement or degradation.

In the same line only I was telling that learning and practicing a different culture would exhaust the Brahmin culture. And TB people who relish the culture would not find any validity in mocking on its culture and devaluing the very culture as zilch.

That's why I said, the collectively acquired cultural qualities/tendencies/inclination of TB genes is what our culture is and it has its uniqueness and specialties and would ever remain so as long as there is collective efforts towards retaining it.

But, I got to know that making such a Gene reference I had made myself a zilch in comparison to all other intellectual members with strong scientific/biological knowledge.

And I sincerely thank Shri.KRS who kept silent until Mr.Biswa found my stupidity in my post referring to Genes, only to make sure that my stupidity is not exposed. I am touched with his love towards me.

dear ravi,

anyone can update wikipedia. i have done so myself. it is a great combined human effort to spread knowledge, and i am every grateful to folks like assange, for thinking up this medium. that it is all free is the icing on the cake.

but barring the most scientifically proved theories, most of human knowledge contains a bias, if not degrees of outright ignorance (i mean the innocent interpretation of this word here). so while wiki gives us instantly some information, and we are better for it, we should treat the same with a grain of salt.

wiki is a good starting point, and sufficient for most of our day to day references. something which encylopaedia brittanica did in the past 2 centuries, but with much more authority. but nowadays even brittanica is free, but not as extensive or uptodate in topics like wiki. ok?

i think, only reason i had fire in my belly, is the theory of inherited genes coming from you..you are after all among the creme de la creme here take it from me. you, most often, enunciate a pov pretty good.

i know you would understand the forces of change and how they are moving so strong in our community. it is the same with other communities, and in many, it has caused murders, on a large scale too, if you look at pakistan, iran or iraq, where a daily death of 100s is no news at all, these days.

compared to that, india has accepted changes more gracefully so far, though the future is far from certain.

i still think many tambrams live in a well. they think so highly of themselves, that they have ignored, to their peril, the social movements and forces, especially those that impact them. had they given some attention to it, and some thought as to how to encounter it effectively, they probably would have come up with lesss virulent and less vitriolic alternative to periyar.

that there has to be a change in society hierarchy is a must - malayalis thanks to narayana guru, did it, with higher regard for hinduism, and their own ezhavas displaced the namboodri/nair power base very smoothly and without rancour.

today in tamil nadu, the nascent movement is tamil nationalism. TN denies the dravidian parties, dravidianism and peiyar - pointing out to their non tamil antecedents. its appeal is to the 'original' tamil tribes - ie dalits, nadars, vanniars and some groups of gounders. they look far behind to the sangam age for identity of true tamilians - and in this, being andhanars works in our favour.

it is a question mark as to how big TN will get, but they get funding from the erstwhile tamil tigers, who are also pissed off with the dravidian parties.tamil nadu may be moving in for turbulent times, particularly if we continue to have idiotic leadership in delhi - and i see no change from that happening, whether it be congress or bjp.

we as a community, upto now, have been comfortably, at a family level, taking care of ourselves, and most of us, moving up in the world. whether we continue to behave this way, or think more inclusive - i dont know.

take care..

 

[kunjuppu]

The same genetic theory and mtDNA studies have been quoted before right in this forum to justify dravidianist racial hatemongering against brahmins. I wonder why no one expressed any indignation then?!

It has become a feature nowadays to gang up against anyone who has something positive to write about brahmins or brahmin culture. It is quite sad!

bhairavan,

i think we may want to tone down our sensitivity. calling someone BB or such, does not behoove well to a civilized conversation and discussion. when hysteria replaces logic, how can two people, that too in a written medium, manage to communicate effectively?

the net result is one shutting up. the losers are both here and the victim happens to shared knowledge.

there is no such thing as 100% falsity (or 100% truth) with some exceptions. rare ones at that too.

critcism per se is not attack. it is a different view of looking at things. have you not heard the story of the two knights almost killing each other over the colour of the shield, which happened to be blue on one side and red on the other; each knight insisting that the colour he saw alone was the true colour. so is most of what we discuss.

one only has to bring his great grandfather into today's world and check out his familiarity with today's lifestyle and gadgets. he imay be happy that you have retained some semblance of his rituals - but will definitely be disappointed at many changes.

he notices your daughter freely moving around during her menstruating days. i think he will forever be in the showers, to remove the anaachaarams, that he has to witness, touch and feel.

one look at your fridge, and see the leftovers saved to be consumed the next day. in 1961, when myaunt's neighbour 'borrowed' my aunt's fridge, to store leftover thayirsaadham and such, after a party, my family went bezerk. they did not have the courage to refuse, but after the neighbour removed her stuff the next day, my grandmother, dropped a dollop of cowdung in a pail of water, and cleaned the fridge try telling such stories to your grand children and check out their response.

consider any comment on culture or brahmin heritage as a curiosity of one, to be examined, challenged and above all answered with dignity and respect. not blind name callings. we paappaans should know better.

thank you.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

You can waken up a sleeping man. It is futile to waken up somebody who is pretending to be asleep. It is futile again to compel a blind to see. Culture is a community's shadow. In the glamour of lights above head it may not be visible. Just tilt the lights the lengthening shadow can be seen. If at any age before it had not impacted, it is unlikely the culture will accompany you to the grave.

 

[kunjuppu]

You can waken up a sleeping man. It is futile to waken up somebody who is pretending to be asleep. It is futile again to compel a blind to see. Culture is a community's shadow. In the glamour of lights above head it may not be visible. Just tilt the lights the lengthening shadow can be seen. If at any age before it had not impacted, it is unlikely the culture will accompany you to the grave.

very euphemistic and comprehensive statements. it can apply to everybody with every viewpoint here.

good one for self analysis and self criticism. hope to see more of it here, particularly from 'traditional' folks... people are not abandoning practices for no reason whatsoever. even the most ardent of traditionalist, i bet, has given up, some of customs of his own dad.

i dont know if is futile to compel a blind to see, but i bet, if a blind could see, he certainly would. for sight is a gift, denied to the blind. no? or am i missing something here?

 

[Jaykay767]

Quote Originally Posted by Jaykay767 View Post

South Brahmins have a very strong kinship across Tamil, Kannada, Telugu & Malayalam. Num of people inter marry & preserve the culture. They all share the same genes & people of the same genetic group come together (this was also substantiated by a recent research where people of the same genetic group come together).

Would love to see the research paper;

If any Tamil Bram is staying in Karnataka, Kerala or Andhra, you will find all / most of his friends only Brahmins, Simailar look at Kannada Bram in Chennai, or Telugu Bram in Bangalore – almost all of their friends will be Brahmins.

Sir,I think you are being wishful and not factual.Brahmins have many NB friends who outnumber their Brahmin friends and I mean friends and not acquaintances.

[JK] – you are not only wishful, but carried away. Have you lived in South ?? Have you observed that South Brahmins have more NB friends than B friends? South Brahmins are very close & have been intermarrying & preserving the culture for long. you are probably commenting on how North Indian Brahmins have more NB friends, not applicable to South Brams.

Similarly most of the Boston Brahmins are all south Brams, you will find this across many countries/places.

Are you sure? IIRC this term had nothing to do with Indian Brahmins as such.It was an expression that denoted privilege which certain protestant families enjoyed in the New England area.

[JK] – No need to state the obvious on how the Boston Brahmin term originates. Lets focus on substance not on semantics !

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Ravi Ji,

First of all, let me be clear. I have never put you down in this Forum. I have always stated that you are not like any other people who claim to be orthodox here, you are genuine. I think I know where you are coming from, and I don't have anything but respect for that.

But it seems to me, of late, you are subscribing to this idea of an exclusive club called 'TBs'. Even this, I do not mind, but then you have started making this identity issue, against some liberal voices here. Instead of defending and promoting your view point, somehow you have transformed to a person defending an ideology and not even considering an opposite view on an intellectual basis.

No one can justify any behavior or culture on genes. Even your citation, though valid, does not prove your claim.

As you know, I am not in the business of hurting anyone wittingly, let alone you. Sorry, if I have done that.

Regards,
KRS

Shri KRS,


I mentioned about Brahmin Genes in terms of "basal lineage" (genetic). It is commonly understood that the behavioral, thinking, learning, inclinations, habit etc..etc. patterns are related to genes. Even if a Brahmin orphan boy is adopted by a Muslim Man and brought up as a Muslim, one can see his genetic qualities in some way or other.


--------------------------------
Source Wikipedia..

Lineage (genetic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basal lineage

In genetics a basal lineage is a genetic lineage that connects a variant allele (type) possessed by a more common ancestor that evolves into two descendant variants possessed by a branch ancestor. An example of a basal lineage is the lineage between mitochondrial 'Eve' and L0 or L1. Basal lineages may have types that are no longer represented in the extant population, only being defined by derivative types such as CRS for L1

--------------------------------

I am glad that you feel so pathetic about me and restricted yourself from bringing this up so as to not to expose me as an idiot among other intellectual members.

Thank you.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

This Victim mentality does you no justice. insensitive and ignorant Statements can not be defended by saying that there were other stupid comments which were not challenged.

My opinion is that, this "sensitivity" criteria is being applied selectively in this forum.

While I agree it is anybody's choice to voice opinion or refrain from saying anything in any given matter, what is wrong in pointing out the hypocrisy therein?

One can not accept totally wrong statement just because it was made by a brahmin.

Your retort is directed to the wrong person because your view is my view too.

It is the "self-styled" critiques, who seek special treatment, by claiming brahmin lineage, in the name of "soul-searching" and "self-criticisms"!

 

[C RAVI]

My opinion is that, this "sensitivity" criteria is being applied selectively in this forum.

While I agree it is anybody's choice to voice opinion or refrain from saying anything in any given matter, what is wrong in pointing out the hypocrisy therein?




Your retort is directed to the wrong person because your view is my view too.

It is the "self-styled" critiques, who seek special treatment, by claiming brahmin lineage, in the name of "soul-searching" and "self-criticisms"!

Shri KB,

How ever your try to point out the hypocrisy of the "self-styled" critiques in the name of "soul-searching" and "self-criticisms", your efforts would do no justice to you when you are dealing with agitated minds.

The agitated and confused minds are some how brilliant in its own dogma to establish validity in all the wiki info under the sun that they reproduce and invalidity in the same wiki info at the drop of a hat that the opposite camp reproduces to counter in the same style and fashion of those agitated minds.

 

[palindrome]

The agitated and confused minds are some how brilliant in its own dogma to establish validity in all the wiki info under the sun that they reproduce and invalidity in the same wiki info at the drop of a hat that the opposite camp reproduces to counter in the same style and fashion of those agitated minds.

What's the issue with wiki? Why no answer to post # 86?

 

[prasad1]

My opinion is that, this "sensitivity" criteria is being applied selectively in this forum.

While I agree it is anybody's choice to voice opinion or refrain from saying anything in any given matter, what is wrong in pointing out the hypocrisy therein?




Your retort is directed to the wrong person because your view is my view too.

It is the "self-styled" critiques, who seek special treatment, by claiming brahmin lineage, in the name of "soul-searching" and "self-criticisms"!

Sir,
There was no retort, just a statement.
I am sorry if you feel offended, it was not intentional.

 

[C RAVI]

What's the issue with wiki? Why no answer to post # 86?

I reserve my right to share my knowledge further in detail, where and how I deem fit!!

I know that you are the only person who accepted the existence of Basel Lineage BUT could not accept its relevance with the genetic influece towards practices,habits, behavior, thinking, learning, inclinations, habit etc..etc. patterns. Believe me, it is not that I am not interested to answer your question. I decide on my own as where should I share my knowledge, how and when.

 

[palindrome]

I reserve my right to share my knowledge further in detail, where and how I deem fit!!

I know that you are the only person who accepted the existence of Basel Lineage BUT could not accept its relevance with the genetic influece towards practices,habits, behavior, thinking, learning, inclinations, habit etc..etc. patterns. Believe me, it is not that I am not interested to answer your question. I decide on my own as where should I share my knowledge, how and when.

Oh no, please do not twist it. You are not sharing any knowledge. You just need to answer whether you accept my offer or not (Cmon not everyone gets such a comprehensive test for free, its a lottery offer, consider it your lucky day). And yeah, please do not twist the lineage point too. Question is not about "accepting" basal lineage (oh please go ask a geneticist what it is in scientific terms). I asked about your assumption wrt "Brahmin exclusivity" with regard to genes in practices,habits, behavior, thinking, learning, inclinations, habit etc..etc. patterns.

 

[prasad1]

Culture is learned, it is not genetic or inherited. Social Scientists through time have successfully proven that we learn behaviors that become part of who we are. In Communication Between Cultures it is said "Culture is the collective programming of the mind which distinguishes the members of one category of people from another." Quite simply this says that teaching with repetition (programming) can help differentiate (distinguish) between different types of people. With culture being a learned behavior it is easy to see how the increase of Mexican immigrants into California has affected both their culture and that of California.

 

[biswa]

Yup exactly. That is exactly how Indians get Americanized in the US, Telugus get Tamilized in TN, Tamilians get Bollywoodized in Mumbai etc. That is how humans learn and adapt to their surroundings. A frozen genome is no good.