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Unity of NRI because of Religion

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Nara#49
Have you seen a mirror.
You calling someone else prejudiced, that is funny.
You are a senior member with your set if friends on this site does not make you an authority.

I admit I am not even 10% TM, I do not believe in any birth based social order. My being born a brahmin is not my fault. You hold that to walk over all brahmin.

Americans had slaves, White american had prejudice (some still do). Ask a White american whether he feels guilty for the past discrimination? So where the blame lies. Did I or Kalyan use it to suppress you, if you are honest, we did not attack you. Why are you going personally against Kalyan with a vengeance.

You have double standards. I do not know who did what to or your ancestors but to go against an individual just because he was born in social order is wrong, and that is prejudice.

I have gone back to your other post and Mr Kalyan makes a compelling
argument.


By the way my original post had nothing to do with caste system.
 
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கால பைரவன்;99666 said:
... If the criticism is against caste system, why is the term "brahminism" used so profusely and the term "casteism" seldom (or never) used?
Brahminism is the granddaddy of casteism. Take away brahminism, casteism is a dead horse.
 
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Have you seen a mirror. You calling someone else prejudiced, that is funny.
I am glad I gave you some moment of levity. I do see myself in the mirror at least once a day and I am quite satisfied with what looks back at me, thank you very much.

From what you have written so far I gather you have never lived in India. If this is so, I have to say I am surprised with your post directed at me, but I suppose that is my problem to deal with, not yours.

Best wishes to you ....
 
What I have understood from my visits abroad is that the Indian Origin People have a soft corner for India. But the Indians by birth having settled there , want to preserve the tradition at any cost come what may. But this results in some absurdities. In a Vishnu temple abroad, I have seen pujas and vratham being conducted even before the actual day of the festival on a weekend. If the day approaching the festival day is okay, then why only that day any day in the year is good enough. This to me, seems to be, to force oneself to believe that one is following the sampradayams.

The NRI's heart is in India. But he thinks he needs to bring up his child there. Here I have a question? Do you think India has given you values to make you a good person? If India is good enough for you, why cannot it be good enough for your children?

If you think India is good enough for you and you dont want to consider any other country as a better country, then you should come back to India , and slog it out. Things are difficult here, I admit and I myself have had to deal with many challenges in India and there are many like me. At the end of the day, I am happy. I may not be so ritualistic as many people here. But I am happy. I can have my samosas in any road side shop without asking everytime what it contains. I can come home and have my thayir sadham and smell the same flowers -malli, jathi , the same earth which I have been smelling since childhood. Nothing has happened to the next generation. They feel like Indians, they dont have conflict situations on what culture to follow. Intercaste marriages happen but with less friction than inter-racial marriages.This is one way. In India itself there is a region to region difference. But the adaptation is easy. Going to Dakshineshwar Kali temple for tambrams in Calcutta is no less fulfilling than a visit to Mangadu amman temple near Chennai. Children are not confused. This is one way of life.

The other end people come to reconcile with differences in USA. They settle there and mingle with local culture. They bring aspects of that culture home and are willing to let their children adapt to whatever comes their way and what interests them as per local culture. They have made peace. This is another way.

The third is people who think Indian culture is needed and superior to western culture but think that the country that produced that culture is not enough for their or their children's prospects. So how is that going to work? How will the children wholeheartedly like India? Typical statements like "India is a dirty country"by these young kids of their proud parents put me off. Because I consider that I am part of the dirtiness and it is my inability that I have not made India sufficiently clean. I dont see that as apart from me. I think same thing applies to people settled abroad but who have come from India. But how do you expect your children to accept that. Will they have the guts to walk the streets of Benares? Most certainly No.

It is here I want to say, that the decision to stay abroad was your choice, Your rituals are all based on circumstances in India. Rivers ,mountains, seasons, sky everything is captured from India. For a next generation settled in USA all this is meaningless. They are not to blame. You are also probably not to blame. You may not have been the director of that company had you been in India. USA has given you that. Accept that gracefully. Your children play with american friends , most of whom are not Indians. If they dont socialize with them, they will become socially problematic individuals.

If they have to socialize with their kids, they will pick up their way of thinking and questioning. How then can you impose your way of life on them. Mangalasutra for instance is being questioned by liberals in India. But if a child is american it is funny and incompatible with their way of life. Another example is asking them to believe the legends all based in India. All gods have their incarnation only in India nowhere else.How do you expect the children to buy that? How can hinduism survive in this way. Some parents focus on the greater context of upanishads and vedanta. But this is not sufficient. A proud american needs american rishis or saints. Does he or can he connect to saint and sages whose language , culture and location is far removed from theirs especially in the future generations?

The solution is there at hand. Take from the local culture, local gods and rebuild your culture. Have your hindu pantheon. But hug your brothers - the Red Indians and dont make them a parayar in your temple. Install their gods in your temple. You will then create a hindu religion rooted in America. Have your vedas, upanishads and other stuff. Have them. But be prepared to witness newer versions of them coming out and in tune with American thinking.

The Indian way of orthodoxy is not possible to be there forever in America. Either localize your customs or be prepared for rebels in your family
 
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Very sensible observation in your post#54.
We were related to Mr. Subbudu, the music critique, and your name sake. His writings were funny.

Your article is very practical and well written, and has the seal of approval from Mr. sangom .

Like you said, people here have adapted to the existing conditions and depending on the congregation. Unlike in India, we still have to cater to the paying community. I would not say everyone is happy with the changes, but we compromise. If you visit temples, in the north India, they are different than in South India, The Amernath temple is different, The Orisa Temples are different.
Similarly In USA there is tremendous variations. There is temple in Portland, built by a Hindu organisation, with all our moorties, but in addition has Jain, guru nanak, and mary with Jesus. I would not call it traditional, on the other hand there is Rangnath Temple in NY where Women not allowed in Kitchen and other areas (but allows a black non-hindu to supply, and clean the same areas).

Practices evolve, even mother nature gets it wrong sometimes. There is nothing wrong in adapting changes. And you rightly said that we, and our way of life will perish, if we do not adapt.

Thanks again.
 
Dear subbudu

Re your post #54, a few comments…this from my own experience, and not sure if generalization would be appropriate.

It is only natural that we have ‘soft corner’ for india, the country of our birth and tradition. Most of us left india in the belief that economic and lifetime opportunities is better abroad, and I think, a large majority would agree on that.

No matter, how much we may feel alienated outside of india, and this alienation is entirely dependent on each person’s attitudes towards his new land, we have to accept, that day to day living, particularly in the west, is hassle free compared to india. Most of us came from middle class, and hence used to good schools and medical care in india, except you find that the same care abroad is standardized, and one need not ‘pull strings’ or search for a ‘good’ doctor. Atleast this has been my experience in Canada.

When it comes to the children, india and china, are probably the only two countries, where the land, nation, culture, and race, all put together are uniquely unique. Each with its own ancient culture, sense of pride of the past and (currently) a feeling that the future is once again turning in their favour.

Still, our children are Canadians, Americans or Australians or wherever they happen to be born and brought up. Their parents have to take great care, not to impose transplanted values, some of which may be in direct contradiction to the new country of choice – particularly family social values. ABCD is a term applied to those kids who grow up not knowing which is right, ie one set of values at home, another outside. They end without a sense of belonging here or there. definitely not a healthy growing up, and the parents are mostly to blame.

Very soon, after leaving india, folks lose their Indian survival skills. No matter how much we love india, it takes a different set of skillsets to survive and get things done in india. Things exactly do not go according to the rules and per paper. I am not talking about bribes or influence peddling – just the normal processes, bureacracies and intricate laws. My children cannot survive in india, let alone myself. One of my friends’ daughters spent 6 months on assignment – initially excited, and at the end vowing never again work in india, but only tourist. Her reasons are several, right from disrespect for women to many things, which when I heard, I put it to cultural differences.

One of the many complaints that I get from recent students, is the inability to relate to their brown counterparts, born and brought up in Canada. what they don’t understand is that even though folks look like Indians, they are culturally quite different, and do not necessarily have the same values. Or the need to stick with brown people just because they are brown skinned. My own children would probably gravitate towards Canadians in any international get together, irrespective of the race of the person. Same goes with Americans, I have noticed.

Again, due to a basically non interference culture which leaves you alone, folks in the west, I think, have no hesitation in dropping off activities which they feel is cumbersome or has no meaning anymore. This is specially applicable to tambrams because in india, our life is so centred on rituals – amavasaya, shraddham, tharpanams and what not. Even without realizing, there is a culture mixing, which we ourselves do not realize, except when someone recently from india, points it out, or when we go to india, and observe how much we have changed – not only practice wise but also value wise. There is nothing right or wrong I believe. It just is.

I have found, especially in the 80s and 90s, a tendency of those in india or Singapore, to mock at those who move to the west. At the drop of the hat, accusations used to fling, of being ‘westernized’, whatever that means. Mostly it was on some imagined value or wrongdoing, and nothing to do with reality. Fortunately, with many many folks have sons daughters in the west, this type of plaint has dropped, if not entirely stopped.

Sometime ago, I came across an Indian guy with the name sundaram. Atleast that is what I thought, an Indian. It so happened that he knew not a word of tamil. He was from Indonesia, several generations, doing business and dealing mostly with hindus or s’pore or Malaysia or fiji for wedding purposes. It can happen the same here in Canada. you might have a white looking Krishnan or raman, in a few generations – only the name might reveal the distance ancestrage..everything else uniquely Canadian or American or wherever the ancestor chose to settle.

Thank you.
 
One of the many complaints that I get from recent students, is the inability to relate to their brown counterparts, born and brought up in Canada. what they don’t understand is that even though folks look like Indians, they are culturally quite different, and do not necessarily have the same values. Or the need to stick with brown people just because they are brown skinned. My own children would probably gravitate towards Canadians in any international get together, irrespective of the race of the person. Same goes with Americans, I have noticed.

I know this is to Subuddu Sir but I would like to comment if i may being 3rd generation PIO, and not even NRI. I have observed that with North American relatives that by 2nd generation and many times even the 1st they are completely Americanised/Canadianised. It think in a way the culture there is so overwhelmingly strong that if you don't adapt asap you lose out in many ways.

Not so here in Britian. In fact i think Britain is very unique for a western country where even 3rd generation British Asians are still so "subcontinent-ish". Many even worse than their parent (and not in a good way). Perhaps it is due to the socio-economic class they had come from (bucolic to put it politely) or perhaps because they have the critical mass in Britian since the 60s and there was absolutely no reason to integrate, let alone assimilate.

Having said that I feel we are lucky in SE Asia to still be able to maintain a "semblance" of Indian culture and language (our unique version of course) despite many of us there being 3rd or 4th/5th generation PIOs. One of the reason is our geographical location ie near India unlike North America, another reason perhaps similar Asian cultures.

I also notice the better the socioeconomic status/education/job the quicker the cultural vanish for most people. I am aware of exceptions however. But i wonder does it always have to be mutually exclusive? Can't one have it both?
 
hi
i feel the 2nd or 3rd generation of trinidad/guyana//fiji/mauritious.....the same thing going to be happen for ABCD......guyaneese/trinidad
always start with "SITARAM" .....like vanakkam....they try to follow indian tradition/cultures with name too....but the language/

food locally influenced......the brown skin is the main reason to keep indian culture.....there grandparents were mainly from BIHAR/UP

settled during colonial period........my 2 cents....

regards
tbs
 
Wonderful post#56 kunjuppu. I could agree more.
You said 'Sometime ago, I came across an Indian guy with the name sundaram'. I came across a white American in Houston with name Markandaya. He was from Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami ashram. He was very learned, and moves mostly in expat Indian circle. Both of them volunteer at the temple.
 
"The Indian way of orthodoxy is not possible to be there forever in America. Either localize your customs or be prepared for rebels in [COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]your [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][/COLOR][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]family[/FONT][/COLOR]"- post 54.

In the US, already the revolt has started between orthodox parents and the children born here. I am not seeing any first generation American born kids anxious to go to Temple or Mosque!

I am afraid most of these Religious Godly centers will go bankrupt in about 30 years, when all the immgrants leave the scene and fresh immigrants trickle down to a minimum.
Wait & watch.
[/FONT]
 
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"The Indian way of orthodoxy is not possible to be there forever in America. Either localize your customs or be prepared for rebels in [COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]your [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][/COLOR][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]family[/FONT][/COLOR]"- post 54.

In the US, already the revolt has started between orthodox parents and the children born here. I am not seeing any first generation American born kids anxious to go to Temple or Mosque!

I am afraid most of these Religious Godly centers will go bankrupt in about 30 years, when all the immgrants leave the scene and fresh immigrants trickle down to a minimum.
Wait & watch.
[/FONT]
hi y sir,
every year there is conference called HINDU MANDIR IN USA conducted by american VHP and other local hindu temples...

i attended once....last year it held in houston , tx............i think this year in cincinnati , OH....i got invitation too....so bankruptsy

may be due to greedy /jealousy temple authorites....still many white americans are visiting temples...many white young american

kids are learning hinduism in sunday balavihar programmes....hinduism will survive in this great country USA WITHOUT ANY DOUBT...

MAY BE A MODIFIED VERSION.....my 2 cents...

regards
tbs
 
Dear subbudu

Re your post #54, a few comments…this from my own experience, and not sure if generalization would be appropriate.

It is only natural that we have ‘soft corner’ for india, the country of our birth and tradition. Most of us left india in the belief that economic and lifetime opportunities is better abroad, and I think, a large majority would agree on that.

No matter, how much we may feel alienated outside of india, and this alienation is entirely dependent on each person’s attitudes towards his new land, we have to accept, that day to day living, particularly in the west, is hassle free compared to india. Most of us came from middle class, and hence used to good schools and medical care in india, except you find that the same care abroad is standardized, and one need not ‘pull strings’ or search for a ‘good’ doctor. Atleast this has been my experience in Canada.

When it comes to the children, india and china, are probably the only two countries, where the land, nation, culture, and race, all put together are uniquely unique. Each with its own ancient culture, sense of pride of the past and (currently) a feeling that the future is once again turning in their favour.

Still, our children are Canadians, Americans or Australians or wherever they happen to be born and brought up. Their parents have to take great care, not to impose transplanted values, some of which may be in direct contradiction to the new country of choice – particularly family social values. ABCD is a term applied to those kids who grow up not knowing which is right, ie one set of values at home, another outside. They end without a sense of belonging here or there. definitely not a healthy growing up, and the parents are mostly to blame.

Very soon, after leaving india, folks lose their Indian survival skills. No matter how much we love india, it takes a different set of skillsets to survive and get things done in india. Things exactly do not go according to the rules and per paper. I am not talking about bribes or influence peddling – just the normal processes, bureacracies and intricate laws. My children cannot survive in india, let alone myself. One of my friends’ daughters spent 6 months on assignment – initially excited, and at the end vowing never again work in india, but only tourist. Her reasons are several, right from disrespect for women to many things, which when I heard, I put it to cultural differences.

One of the many complaints that I get from recent students, is the inability to relate to their brown counterparts, born and brought up in Canada. what they don’t understand is that even though folks look like Indians, they are culturally quite different, and do not necessarily have the same values. Or the need to stick with brown people just because they are brown skinned. My own children would probably gravitate towards Canadians in any international get together, irrespective of the race of the person. Same goes with Americans, I have noticed.

Again, due to a basically non interference culture which leaves you alone, folks in the west, I think, have no hesitation in dropping off activities which they feel is cumbersome or has no meaning anymore. This is specially applicable to tambrams because in india, our life is so centred on rituals – amavasaya, shraddham, tharpanams and what not. Even without realizing, there is a culture mixing, which we ourselves do not realize, except when someone recently from india, points it out, or when we go to india, and observe how much we have changed – not only practice wise but also value wise. There is nothing right or wrong I believe. It just is.

I have found, especially in the 80s and 90s, a tendency of those in india or Singapore, to mock at those who move to the west. At the drop of the hat, accusations used to fling, of being ‘westernized’, whatever that means. Mostly it was on some imagined value or wrongdoing, and nothing to do with reality. Fortunately, with many many folks have sons daughters in the west, this type of plaint has dropped, if not entirely stopped.

Sometime ago, I came across an Indian guy with the name sundaram. Atleast that is what I thought, an Indian. It so happened that he knew not a word of tamil. He was from Indonesia, several generations, doing business and dealing mostly with hindus or s’pore or Malaysia or fiji for wedding purposes. It can happen the same here in Canada. you might have a white looking Krishnan or raman, in a few generations – only the name might reveal the distance ancestrage..everything else uniquely Canadian or American or wherever the ancestor chose to settle.

Thank you.

Dear Kunjuppu,

I do not question your or many others decision to immigrate and stay in America. It is a perspective I would say and decision to voluntarily /involuntarily adopt a way of life. I do not even question the decision of Indians in USA to build temples and start traditional activities there. However having said that my post was to make a point that we cannot entertain a half hearted notion of superiority. It is India which is the source of Indian culture. You cannot stay away from India and adopt USA for citizenship, yet claim that Indian Culture is in a way better than the culture of others in America. I know a lot of youngsters are cosmopolitan and have no hesitation mingling with people of all races. This is going to be the way forward.

In a multicultural family trying to impose hindu-only symbols will be very difficult and not acceptable to the youngsters. There are two gaps that the children share from their Indian Parents.
a) They are brought up in America not India, hence there is a cultural gap between parent and child
b) The generation gap as we call it

I dont think Saidevo's view that the non hindu son and daughter in law should completely adopt all hindu symbols is feasible. It calls for a lot of childhood level grooming much of it does not work even among Indian children. How would it work for foreigners. So the better solution to adopt an inclusive culture and hindu culture would have the power to absorb. Whether it is Red-Indian deities or any other tribal god, or a greek god, or christ,I dont know which part of america has which segment , but there is nothing wrong in having a place for them within our temples and also a space for them in our hearts. How much easier it would be for western son in laws and daughter in laws to mingle with a localized hindu culture, They would not be adopting anything foreign and though idol worship may still be difficult for hard-core protestants it may be no more difficult for them to adjust as in a marriage with a catholic partner. Some people will shudder at my mention of christ. But rest assured a pagan place with so many idols will keep any die hard protestant away. So they do not have to worry about evangelization.

When we do these things, it sets an example for the american culture from a larger perspective. It is way above what any protestant would ever have done or a catholic would ever have done. If they have to compete with the hindus the only way is to bring hindu gods and prayers in their churches as it is, not doctor their gods. If I make christ look like nataraja it is Nataraja not christ. This can have a positive effect on hinduism and other religions. Having a place for red Indian gods is I am sure going to be a winner Idea even though such worshippers may have dwindled. Let others copy the hindus , what will remain will be just a global faith which is good for us all and no cultural frictions of inter-religion marriage in NA.
 
I know this is to Subuddu Sir but I would like to comment if i may being 3rd generation PIO, and not even NRI. I have observed that with North American relatives that by 2nd generation and many times even the 1st they are completely Americanised/Canadianised. It think in a way the culture there is so overwhelmingly strong that if you don't adapt asap you lose out in many ways.

Not so here in Britian. In fact i think Britain is very unique for a western country where even 3rd generation British Asians are still so "subcontinent-ish". Many even worse than their parent (and not in a good way). Perhaps it is due to the socio-economic class they had come from (bucolic to put it politely) or perhaps because they have the critical mass in Britian since the 60s and there was absolutely no reason to integrate, let alone assimilate.

Having said that I feel we are lucky in SE Asia to still be able to maintain a "semblance" of Indian culture and language (our unique version of course) despite many of us there being 3rd or 4th/5th generation PIOs. One of the reason is our geographical location ie near India unlike North America, another reason perhaps similar Asian cultures.

I also notice the better the socioeconomic status/education/job the quicker the cultural vanish for most people. I am aware of exceptions however. But i wonder does it always have to be mutually exclusive? Can't one have it both?

There can be I think no excuse for not mingling. We must mingle with the locals keeping their sensitivity in mind even if it means make adjustments to our religion. The best example of adaptation I think is the thai-brahmins who have mingled well with the local communities and have now recieved an official go ahead from their cultural head to marry any one of their choice. Hinduism in Indonesia also probably grew up that way through this multicultural adapatation. This I think is largely an inevitability perhaps and we will be hearing of an american style hinduism. But I would rather have it that be more inclusive and a bridge between all religions rather than suffering due to exclusion and protestant like attitude( which breeds fanaticism) .
 
I know this is to Subuddu Sir but I would like to comment if i may being 3rd generation PIO, and not even NRI. I have observed that with North American relatives that by 2nd generation and many times even the 1st they are completely Americanised/Canadianised. It think in a way the culture there is so overwhelmingly strong that if you don't adapt asap you lose out in many ways.

Not so here in Britian. In fact i think Britain is very unique for a western country where even 3rd generation British Asians are still so "subcontinent-ish". Many even worse than their parent (and not in a good way). Perhaps it is due to the socio-economic class they had come from (bucolic to put it politely) or perhaps because they have the critical mass in Britian since the 60s and there was absolutely no reason to integrate, let alone assimilate.

Having said that I feel we are lucky in SE Asia to still be able to maintain a "semblance" of Indian culture and language (our unique version of course) despite many of us there being 3rd or 4th/5th generation PIOs. One of the reason is our geographical location ie near India unlike North America, another reason perhaps similar Asian cultures.

I also notice the better the socioeconomic status/education/job the quicker the cultural vanish for most people. I am aware of exceptions however. But i wonder does it always have to be mutually exclusive? Can't one have it both?

Smt. Amala and other members,


What I write below may not be palatable to many but I request that you consider my views impartially.

When person A from one country (India, say) goes in search of better livelihood to country B (say US, Canada, UK, Germany, etc.) the untarnished truth is that he is in the position of a beggar who pleads for some job/ livelihood opportunity in that new country, which will give him some good wages or returns as compared to what he could have got in A.

Since the people back in country A look at the person enjoying a much higher standard of income and luxurious life in the new country and so look up to the migrant as some specially lucky or blessed person, many NRIs/PIOs and others have taken this superiority for granted. But their superiority stops with their Indian counterparts only and does not extend to any of the citizens of the adopted country. For the latter, the immigrant continues to be an immigrant.

Governments confer citizenship to children born to the original immigrants and also provides all facilities on par with the original citizens' children. The immigrants also may secure citizenship status eventually. But, imo, despite all these things happening "yooyam yooyam vayam vayam" (Thou art thou and we are we.) will normally apply between the original residents (citizens) and the new-comers. Hence the new-comers have to make all their best possible efforts to integrate with the natives culturally and in all other ways of life. It is relevant to mention in this context that the Iyers of Travancore celebrate Onam, Vishu, Tiruvathira along with the Keralites (natives) and some 50 years ago we did not even know anything about Diwali !

Since the democratic governments of advanced countries permit a large amount of freedom for immigrant groups, it may be alright to have our religion, temples and what not but everything should be in harmony with the native atmosphere and not as some protruding entity to mark our individuality, separateness, etc. It was in this sense that I read Shri Kunjuppu's (?) suggestions for integrating the red indian gods into our temples and building our temples on the models of churches.

Immigrant communities will always be looked upon as separate and, in times of national distress, the divide may become deeper. Those who have been most unintegrating will be most despised, I feel.

Once again my aim is not to find fault with anyone or any group but to express my well-considered views. While you are at Rome, do as the Romans do, is not that the old adage?
 
We all are immigrant here on this earth. To predict doom and gloom on others children only shows very myopic view, based on half knowledge, of a pessimist.

The dung beetle only smell because it stays in dung. The vast majority of people do not live that way. The vast majority of prosperous NRI have so good here that the culturally bankrupt people can not appreciate. Even in India depending on the mood of the local politician, you have to have a subservient role. It is probably better for the people who are so defeated to stay home and dissolve in their own tears. The world does not need to wallow in your sorrow.
Majority of Indians, and people of Indian decent will succeed. They adapt and make the best of the opportunities. Contrary to the stories told here in TB, People of Indian origin maintain their version of the culture. Even in America after 200 years, Greek American, Italian American, Irish American, etc maintain their tradition. Jewish American thrive, Cuban American strongly influence Florida. If you do not have your distinct presence with your friends (unlike TB it seems) you can not make a political statement in a True democracy.

An ignorant person who knows that he is ignorant can be educated. but an Ignorant person who thinks he knows it all is beyond help.
So be miserable or happy in your ignorance.
 
...Whether it is Red-Indian deities or any other tribal god, or a greek god, or christ,I dont know which part of america has which segment ,


.... It was in this sense that I read Shri Kunjuppu's (?) suggestions for integrating the red indian gods into our temples and building our temples on the models of churches.
Sirs, "Red-Indian" is considered derogatory, I request you not to use that term. They don't like to be called "Indian" as well, but that term is so well ingrained it is hard to change. The term they prefer is "natives" or "native Americans".


Immigrant communities will always be looked upon as separate and, in times of national distress, the divide may become deeper. Those who have been most unintegrating will be most despised, I feel.
Having lived in the U.S. for more than 30 years I have a fairly good feel for the people and culture. Some of the views expressed here seem completely at odds with my experience.

We were all economic migrants, attracted by opportunity to make money. In an earlier generation people went north, in my generation they started venturing out even further. Like those who went north in the 50s and 60s, those of us who migrated out of India had to compete with the locals for everything and nothing was given to us just because we were so pitiful. If we had the qualification and experience we were able to beat out the so called "locals", otherwise not. Some of the these Indian immigrants were able to rise up in corporate ladder to the top positions, some are well respected physicians, venture capitalists, new-technology start-ups, lawyers arguing cases in the Supreme Court, why even successful politicians rising to the level of Governors of states.

So, by and large, I don't think the Indian immigrants are made to feel second-class in anyway.

Also, we must realize U.S. is not a cultural monolith. The days of cultural melting pot is long gone. It is considered more like a quilt. Four out of 50 states are already majority non-white. The majority of babies born in the U.S. is already non-white. Within a generation U.S. as a whole will turn majority non-white.

Another aspect of American culture belies the feeling that "most unintegrating will be most despised" and that is individual freedom. In my experience, this culture allows sufficient space to observe as much of individual separateness as one wishes as long as it does not interfere with the job he/she is supposed to perform or be disruptive to others.

Also, integration of Christian iconography in Hindu temples in the U.S. will not promote "integration". Christians will see this as lack of conviction on the part of Hindus.

Cheers!
 
Sangom, subbudu,

I see a disconnect between the reality of usa/Canada & your perception of it. I am more with nara re the structure of these societies.

In my view, both are post Christian secular societies. Ofcourse there are lots of churches, but most mainline ones like catholics or protestants are lucky if they can get enough congregation for one or two services a week. That too, with sparsely populated pews. The one branch of Christianity that is on the rise, is the evangelical type, which depends solely on the crowd pulling power of a single guy, and it is usually a single church, meant to enrich the said minister.

So, by and large, folks live on their own terms. If you want to belief that is ok. if you don’t want to believe, that too is ok. this tolerance and non interference, are the best part of living in north America. Canada is even more non bothersome, to the extent, that in our recent census, our race or religion was not even asked.

My children feel 100% Canadian. They do no think of themselves as hyphenated, and in Canada, politics fashioned after the british system, the control of a party is enough to get you the prime minister or premier (chief minister) job. A Punjabi sikh has already got this job in british Columbia, which once was the most racist of Canadian provinces. Over 100 years ago, a ship koma gata maru, carrying sikh immigrants was turned away back to india, just because the locals did not want coloured people.

But things have changed from night to day. today, it is realistic to aspire and achieve in north America, due in part, a tolerant attitude of the whites, a low birth rate of the whites which means the society needs immigrants to kept the engines of economy running, the only immigrants available are from non white countries.

Also, with the rise of china and india, the stock of the local Chinese and Indians have gone up. No longer are these looked upon as beggars from poverty stricken societies (that is now reserved for Somalia) but folks from countries with solid economic and brain power.

Admittedly, the biggest challenge for an immigrant is to find a job. In times of plenty, one can pick and choose. Also it depends on the fields of expertise. Once you get a job, you are even with the local, as many Indians have found out. But a BA in English, science or literature, is not enough get any job, and these usually end up driving taxi cabs or security guards. As one Pakistani cab driver, told my visiting friend, even as a cab driver in Toronto, he had a good living, than a clerk in govt service in Islamabad.

Again, due to the casteless society, an immigrant’s son or daughter, can easily fit into mainstream without effort, as most people have immigrant relatives, whether it be from England, Russia or Lebanon.

In Canada, the Indians, srilankans, muslims etc have reached a critical mass. No longer the children are forced or desire to look to the old countries for brides or grooms. Or even look outside their own community. Hindu Indians, irrespective of what states or languages their parents adhered, marry freely, without caste barriers. So too intermarry with Sikhs. Inter racial marriages to Chinese and whites happen, though not in that many numbers.

All in all, quite fluid, and I am unable to hazard a guess, as to what my third generation descendent will look like or what his/her feelings towards india or tamil Brahmin community will be. Maybe he/she would not have even heard of the latter? Who knows!!
 
My two-cents on this -

1. I favor complete integration of people both at home and outside: I want Bs and TBs fully integrate with NBs, thus opting for ICM and IRM. Likewise, I want my children to marry anyone they love irrespective of religion, culture and original nationality of the parents in the US.

2. If Religion has any value, it has to promote tolerance and peaceful co-existence of ALL peoples. The sense of "My Religion is the best" will invariably lead to conflict and mayhem. And it's happening right now before us.

Religion as an expression of past culture and historical legacy has some resonance in me; but I totally object to and reject Religion as a Means of Reaching Moksha (Freedom)!

Cheers.
 
Originally quoted by Kunjuppu All in all, quite fluid, and I am unable to hazard a guess, as to what my third generation descendent will look like or what his/her feelings towards india or tamil Brahmin community will be. Maybe he/she would not have even heard of the latter? Who knows!!
Shri Kunjuppu, Exactly, this is what I also envisage as a result of "integration"—not sticking out like a sore thumb in the society which the immigrant has voluntarily adopted and the magnanimous society which has accepted the immigrants graciously. But I get an impression that the Indians wherever they go, tend to become inconvenient entities jutting out of the smooth social scene, following their own weird customs and practices in public and overall, asseting that "we are different" (and, probably, "superior to you also"). The Sanskrit line "yooyam yooyam vayam vayam" is from Bhartruhari; the full verse goes like:— yUyaM vayaM vayaM yUyaM ityAsInmatirAvayoH | kiM jAtamadhunA yena yUyaM yUyaM vayaM vayaM || (That you were us, and we were you In former days we'd both agree What has now happened to us two, that you are you, and we are we?) I continue to believe that the superficial grandeur and egalitarianism which now characterises certain societies, may not continue if the distress and discontent exceed, in future, some critical level. I may be wrong but I will be happy if I am proved wrong.
Originally posted by Nara Sirs, "Red-Indian" is considered derogatory, I request you not to use that term. They don't like to be called "Indian" as well, but that term is so well ingrained it is hard to change. The term they prefer is "natives" or "native Americans".
This latent feeling of "native" is, imo, a pointer - howsoever weak it may be - to human feelings of belonging of a country or patriotism, if viewed in the reverse direction. In view of the tumultuous and often gory history of the Americas, it is possible that the real native Americans must be a near-extinguished lot now but that may not, in my view, prevent other invaders from claiming prior charge in chronological order of their invasion and annexation of parts of the land. As I said in post #65 (http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/7281-unity-nri-because-religion-7.html#post99879) these are my personal views and may not be acceptable to many. If it is not, please excuse me.
 
I thank Nara & Kunjuppu. The rise and success of people from Asia, and the subcontinent is not appreciated. You can integrate like chandan and make the whole pot smell good, or disappear like a grain of salt. Fortunately PIO's are like the Chandan, they make their presence felt. You need to be with successful people to see the presence we make. It seems the people who are posting here have only met defeated people. Or the people I meet are upbeat, willing to fight for their identity, as we provide the atmosphere for it, and people these other posters meet the people who tell what these poster want to here. If I had to live with negative people I too will tell them story to avoid meeting them in USA.

If you are floor mat people will wipe their feet, no matter what.
 
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Are you sure it is religion and not culture? Or are you positing that they are one and the same?

You are right. Culture might be more appropriate. I only deal with Hindu/jain/sickh from India. So to me culture loosely is religion, particularly Hinduism.
 
I have noted when we travel this happens all the while..in a foreign place when anyone from the Indian Subcontinent and neighbouring Pakistan if they happen to see another person from both these regions..that time no differences is seen and they will be actually happy to see someone who is from either India or Pakistan and will chat with us cos he/she feels at least I have found someone "like me" here.

How many times I have heard Pakistanis tell "Oh actually we are all the same" dialogue. I guess cos there was no one else from the Indian Subcon or Pakistan to talk too!!!

But the moment each goes back to their country..all differences start.
 
I have noted when we travel this happens all the while..in a foreign place when anyone from the Indian Subcontinent and neighbouring Pakistan if they happen to see another person from both these regions..that time no differences is seen and they will be actually happy to see someone who is from either India or Pakistan and will chat with us cos he/she feels at least I have found someone "like me" here.

How many times I have heard Pakistanis tell "Oh actually we are all the same" dialogue. I guess cos there was no one else from the Indian Subcon or Pakistan to talk too!!!

But the moment each goes back to their country..all differences start.

i dont know renu, i think i must be the odd man out here, in this type of behaviour.

personally, when i am travelling, i do not wish to reveal who i am or what i do, unless i get to like the person. i do not carry the flag of india or canada with me, but just myself, and do not wish to start a conversation with my living in toronto and such personal stuff.

it appears part of our background, to be nosy, and get to know as much of the other as possible, without giving away too much of ourselves.

also, it appears to me, that we south asians, cannot carry on a neutral conversation ie comment on the taste of coffee or the service. it has to inevitably have some connection or comparison to india or pak, which i abhor. usually pak folks are even more cattier than indian folks - they give out nothing.

i am very happy that your experiences have been pleasantly different.

your kunjs :)
 
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