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True history of Dravidians. Rama Krishna Shiva Vishnu are all Dark Dravidian Gods !

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Namaste Sri Sangom,

Shri jaykay,
  1. How come the oldest rama account is written in sanskrit by valmiki, an apparently sanskrit name rather than in a Tamil or some other dravidian language by someone like Kamban?
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I have a basic doubt.

In the "amara-kosha" while giving synonyms for Vishnu, Amarasimha has not used the name of Rama as an epithet, although he gives about 35 synonyms.

Also Adi Sankara who wrote bhashyams on Geeta, Vishnu sahasranama etc. he has not done so for Ramayana nor has made any mention of aditya-hrudayam, though Narayana is his ishta-devata by all accounts. Are there any Sankaracharya-krita slokas on Rama?

Even in kanaka-dhara stotram he has not made any mention of Seeta to compare her with Sri Lakshmi, nor he has made any mention of Rama's name in comparison to Vishnu.

Since the date of composition of amara-kosha is dated somewhere in 4th century if Ramayana or Dasha-avathara was that popular during Sankara's times, he would surely have composed some stotras on Rama or some bhashyam on Ramayana or some select portions (like Aditya hrudayam etc.) of it.

If Sri Nara is reading this message, he may give some inputs from SV point of view regarding inclusion of Rama into dasha-avatara etc.

Regards,
 
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I have a basic doubt.

In the "amara-kosha" while giving synonyms for Vishnu, Amarasimha has not used the name of Rama as an epithet, although he gives about 35 synonyms.

Also Adi Sankara who wrote bhashyams on Geeta, Vishnu sahasranama etc. he has not done so for Ramayana nor has made any mention of aditya-hrudayam, though Narayana is his ishta-devata by all accounts. Are there any Sankaracharya-krita slokas on Rama?

Even in kanaka-dhara stotram he has not made any mention of Seeta to compare her with Sri Lakshmi, nor he has made any mention of Rama's name in comparison to Vishnu.

Since the date of composition of amara-kosha is dated somewhere in 4th century if Ramayana or Dasha-avathara was that popular during Sankara's times, he would surely have composed some stotras on Rama or some bhashyam on Ramayana or some select portions (like Aditya hrudayam etc.) of it.

If Sri Nara is reading this message, he may give some inputs from SV point of view regarding inclusion of Rama into dasha-avatara etc.

Regards,

Shri narayanan,

Your queries are very important and difficult to be answered by an ordinary fellow like myself. Even so, I give below my opinions, point-wise:—
  • It is well-known that the Rama of valmiki was not an avatar of vishnu, until he was so elevated at a later date. It is quite probable that during Amarasimha's times (around A.D. 375), this elevation had not happened. (It is commonly held that Rama as an avataar was largely during and after the revival of the ramavat sect by saint. Ramanand (died 1411 A.D.). Hence, this may also explain, at least to a certain extent, why Adi sankara is silent about Rama.
  • We should not bring in bhashyams in this discussion. It was mandatory that each new philosophy should be shown to be in conformity with the "prasthAnatrayee" comprising the Upanishads, brahmasutra and gita; so, Sankara wrote detailed bhashyas or commentaries only on the prasthAnatrayee in order to have his advaita validated before the scholars who mattered.
 
Hello all,
this is my first post in this forum. my background is Malayalee Christian, but I am not Anti-Hindu. Infact I see myself as a Hindu with Christian influences, the real identity. Many Indian Christians are not aware of how much Hindu tradition they are exposed too their whole life, especially in India, but also abroad. This begins with Thali necklaces and ends with the unconciously done Ramanite education for our children. I hope, I've cleared all doubts about my motivation to write something on this topic. As a Christian Hindu, I love all my Hindu brothers and sister irrespective of caste and division. I'm a software professional from Europe and I was always curious about our past and modern world. I have done much amateurish research on topics like these and i'd like to share it with you. I think many are aware of the wrongdoings of lots of scholars and intellectuals from all societies. Let's correct them here.

I will go firstly through some interesting points, sangom made here, and will comment them according to my best knowledge. I can't guarantee that everything I write is also correct.

How come the oldest rama account is written in sanskrit by valmiki, an apparently sanskrit name rather than in a Tamil or some other dravidian language by someone like Kamban?

It is well known, that Indian kings used intentionally foreign languages for official use. Why? To dominate the administration quite easily. This was part of the strategy to rule Indians, including North Indians. The kings used Prakrit to communicate with the administration, while common people spoke Dravidian languages. Maharashtra and Gujarat spoke Dravidian languages not so much time ago! Infact the status of Marathi being an Indo-Aryan language is currently highly disputed in linguistic scholarship! And even Hindi is being talked about having too many Dravidian elements to classify it as Indo-Aryan. This important information needs to be considered when we talk about a remote past North Dravidian people. It is clear to me, that in the time of Asoka, people in the North still spoke real Dravidian languages. Only gradually they switched to some other form of language, not Sanskrit, but a mixture of Prakrit and Dravidian. Sanskrit was another language which replaced Prakrit as court language across India, at the same time, when native Dravidians began to follow Prakrit.

If brahmins originated in south India and were african+yedda+etc., why did they give all respect to the vedas and other scriptures all written in sanskrit, an alien tongue, and that too from the dim past, till today? Why was it that the brahmins did not think of learning their mother tongue (whether african, yedda, or anything)?

This question is therefore easy to answer. The North Dravidians have learnt new Elite languages during the course of time, due to invasions from Central Asians, who spoke also a series of languages, Avestan, RigVedic language, Greek, Persian, Turkish. As you know, all these languages have influenced mostly the administrative class first and only later, if at all, became the language of common people. The administrative class includes the priests, the Brahmins. We know today, that IVC had a religious society with priests and rituals. It was these priests who have been captured and taught the new language first, a language, which was probably more close to Iranian Avestan, which they Dravidianized into RgVedic language. They were forced to teach different gods and morals, but they retained also the old Dravidian belief systems. There is no doubt, that Sanskrit was a forced language and later a tool to rule the masses by exclusivity. This has also happened, when Islam arrived in India. The administrative class learned Arabi Persian after the North Prakrit speakers (former Dravidians) were conquered. Only centuries later Urdu emerged as a Persianized Prakrit, which eventually will become more Persianized than now.

In the case of M.Bh. most of the place names do not belong to south India, and there is specific reference to the south as well as some areas in the NW. I would like to know how you view this point.

The story about Ayodhya made by jaykay is likely to be correct. The Guptas (empire) have sanctioned modern North Indian Ayodhya as the real place of Rama. This Ayodhya has nothing to do with the real place of Rama. We should seriously think about the real place and I think jaykay is on the right track on this matter. It's dubious, that nothing of Rama had reached Western or Eastern Asia except the places, where Dravidians arrived. We actually had much of the North conquered and our traditions have arrived there in high numbers. A simple example would be the creation of Rangolis in the North. This was an export of a Telugu monarch!

Srilanka's existence was well-known to Ashoka in that he sent his children Mahinda and Sanghamitra, his children, as emissaries to Lanka. Hence, it may not be unacceptable to consider that the existence of a land by name Lanka (lankaa f. in sanskrit means an unchaste woman.) was known even in the north of India from times before Ashoka itself and with some poetic imagination, and news filtering through for generations, valmiki could have imagined an island, a very prosperous city and all that.

Do you actually believe in this story? Sounds more like a fairy tale by A R R Tolkien! Nonsense!
 
...If Sri Nara is reading this message, he may give some inputs from SV point of view regarding inclusion of Rama into dasha-avatara etc.
Sorry Narayan, I just read this post. I feel a little awkward as it seems I have created an impression of wide and deep knowledge about SV. I can only plead guilty to decent level of knowledge -- I say this as I dislike false modesty more than conceit.

SV tradition as we know it, i.e. one starting from Sriman Nathamunigal and based on equal parts Azhvar Pasurams and Prastana Traiyam and their purported derivatives like Ramayana, Mh.B, and Vishnu Puranam, Rama is very much Vishnu's avathara, and a poorna avathara at that.

Swami Periyavacchan Pillai, commentator par excellence of Dhivya Prabhandam constructed a Ramayanam by using just the verses of Azhvar pasurams, and it is called Pasurappadi Ramayanam.

Even though not much of Sriman Nathamuni's own words survive today, he seems to have had visions of Rama entourage coming to his house. The details are murky as some say it was the local King that he saw as Rama himself gracing his house.

From a briefly later period, we have a poem called Atimanusha Stavam by Swami Koorathazhvan, a disciple of Bhagavat Ramanuja, in which he stresses that even though Rama himself attests to being no more than a son of Dasaratha, his actions betray his divine nature. A sample shloka #19:

अक्षुण्ण योगपथं जटायुं तिर्यञचमेव बत मोक्षपथे नियोक्तुम् ।
शक्नोषि वेत्सि च यदा स तदा कथं त्वं देवीं अवाप्तुं अनलं व्यथित विचिन्वन् ॥



This verse points to Rama granting moksham to Jadayu as an indication that he is more than just a son of Dasaratha. Other verses go on to pointing other instances from Ramayana, like kaakaasura vadam, Ahalya's release from curse, etc.

These verses seem to rebut an implied a poorva paksham that Rama was just a son of Daratha and no more. So in this sense one can see some support that Rama as an avatara was not universally accepted even as late as the time of Bhagavat Ramanuja. However, within SV, there is no question that Rama was revered as a poorna avatara of Lord Sriman Narayana.

Hope this give a glimpse from the SV side.

Cheers!
 
I don't understand the skin color bit. Aren't there dark people in North India and fair people in South India? What is this theory about fair people worshipping dark gods?

To me what is is more interesting is why are 2 handed people worshipping 4 handed gods?
 
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