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True history of Dravidians. Rama Krishna Shiva Vishnu are all Dark Dravidian Gods !

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1. Vedas, Puranas, Shastras, Ramayana & Mahabarata etc.. are ALL purely dravidian texts. All cities/towns are found (& named the same way) in South India/Lanka. Hastinapuram (Andhra) Pandavapura, Kishkinda & Vatapi (Karnataka), Kansapuram, Kasipuram, Srivaikuntam, Madurai (land of nectar), Kailasapuram, Sivakasi, ayottipatinam (ayodhya), Gangavathi etc..
2. for south dravidian kings, north/Vadaku represented - North Karnataka & Andhra. Vindhyas were the Himalayas in ancient texts, they had no visibility beyond this. Agasthiyar Hills officially named as such are down south & is NOT the vindyas. Kalidasa was in the court of Vikramditya - Kannada King. Hastinapuram & Kasipuram are in current Andhra - North of tamil nadu.

BARATAVARSHA IS THE LAND FROM VINDHYAS TO KERALA DOWN SOUTH - land locked kingdown with Lanka controlling all sea routes. thats why south dravidians wanted to defeat him & reduce their influence on sea routes. so thats why only the Lanka version goes to Greece (HOMER'S ILLIAD - TROY IS LANKA) & Ramayana version goes to South east asia & other countries. RAMAYANA DID NOT & COULD NOT HAVE GONE TO GREECE THROUGH NORTH INDIA/CENTRAL ASIAN ETC.. GIVEN THE MANY HOSTILE KINGDOMS IN BETWEEN.

YOU CAN ARGUE THAT RAMA CAME FROM A DISTANT NORTH INDIA, HOWEVER VALMIKI & ALL OTHER RAMAYANA'S SAY RAMA IS A LONG ARMED DARK PRINCE & LAKSHMANA IS A DARK PRINCE - RAMA IS AVATAR OF VISHNU - CONFIRMED DARK GOD IN ALL THE PURANAS/VEDAS (THE POTRAYAL OF THE RECENT TV SERIAL OF RAMANANDA SAGAR WITH FAIR SKINNED RAMA/LAKSHMANA IS MISLEADING AND THE SAME WITH KRISHNA ETC..) . SO IF THEY ARE DARK PRINCES, THEN THEY WILL NEED TO COME FROM A DRAVIDIAN KINGDOM. BUT IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO FATHOM THAT RAMA & LAKSHMANA CAME THROUGH 1000'S OF KMS TO DOWN SOUTH FROM AYODHYA OF NORTH INDIA. + ALL THE CITIES OF RAMAYANA - VATAPI, KISHKINDA, AYOTTIYAPATTTINAM, KAILASAM, KASIPURAM, SIVAKASI, RAMESHWARAM, LANKA ARE ALL LOCATED DOWN SOUTH BELOW VINDYAS. CHOLA EMPIRE TAKES RAMAYANA TO EVERY PART OF SOUTH EAST ASIA - THAI, CAMBODIA, INDONESIA, MALAYSIA, ETC.. IN TAMIL & SANSKRIT BECOS IT IS THEIR LEGACY, STORY, HISTORY & CULTURE. ++ MOST IMPORTANTLY CHOLA/PANDIAN/CHERA HAVE BEEN AT WAR WITH LANKA FOR CENTURIES,& FINALLY RANSACKED ANURADHAPURA IN LANKA ETC.. - DOCUMENTED IN ALL TEXTS. - "PRIAM (RAVANA) IN TROY (LANKA VERSION OF RAMAYANA) - OUR ENEMIES HAVE BEEN ATTACKING US FOR CENTURIES & OUR WALLS STILL STAND" TROY IS LANKA !! BEFORE THE HISTORIC WAR WITH RAMA/LASKHMANA (AGMEMNON/ACHILLES) LEADING TO RANSACKING OF TROY (LANKA)

SO RAMA IS A DARK DRAVIDIAN & CAME FROM SOUTH AYOTTIYAPTTINAM. !!

3. Yadavas are a kannada race still present in north karnataka
4. Cauvery is/was Ganga in Ramayana. Gangakonda Cholan !! Cauvery was the ganga for dravidians not some unknown river in north india. Gangavathi is in Karnataka (origin of cauvery) & Kannada kings are known as Ganga Kingdom/Kings. Cauvery is the main life source, food source for all dravidians, hence this has to be Ganga & not some unknown river. Also all local legends in south dravidian texts refer to all her Kings worshipping or dipping in Ganga so this has be a nearby river. Today's Ganga in North India is 1000's of kms away, so there is no way Cholas, Pandyas, Cheras, Chalukyas etc.. can go to Ganga & come every now & then not to mention the treacherous pass through the impassable Vindya Mountains. It is the Vindya Mountains that protected the south dravidian states, language & culture from the invading muslim rulers.
5. Triveni Sangam (in Tamil Nadu) is a sangam of Cauvery (Ganga), Bhavani (Yamuna) & Amudha (Saraswati - invisible river).
6. Hinduism, Jainism & Buddism all orginated in South Dravidian Kingdoms.
7. Jainism originated in Karnataka & Gometeswara became the most powerful holy town.
8. One of the Jain Thirthankara was Buddha (from north/vadaku karnataka). Original texts on Buddhism talks about the extensive links to Jainism. One of the legend says Budhha as a monk was sold to a "north indian king - above the vindyas" & thats how Buddhism spread there.
9. Kannada/Tamil Kings were heavily buddhist & took it to Lanka, South east Asia. There was NO sasnkrti found in Ashoka regime (one of the largest kings in north) documented by every researcher, becos it originated in South dravidian. It was written in Brahmi/Tamil script.
10. South Dravidian kings established Ayodhya in Thailand, Indonesia, Cambodia, North India etc.. becos they ruled in the name of Lord Ram
11. Thats why no temple was found under Babri Masjid becos the North India Ayodhya is NOT the original place. It is ayottiyapattinam in Tamilnadu.
12. TROY STORY IS A COPY OF RAMAYANA (WIFE IS KIDNAPPED & TRIGGERED AN EXTRAORDINARY WAR). THIS IS THE LANKA VERSION. RAVANA/PRIAM ARE JUST KINGS. Sita/Helen were never harmed in Lanka/Troy. Subtext - No TWO extraordinary legends can exist at the same time (around 400 to 100 BC) WITH IDENTICAL STORY LINES/DESTRUCTION OF LANKA/TROY, both were preserved for many centuries through oral tradition (no writing was there during this time). SO EITHER WE COPIED THE TROY LEGEND & NAMED AS RAMAYANA OR GREEKS COPIED OUR LEGEND BUT FROM THE SOURCES OF LANKA. THATS WHY RAMA (AS AGEMEMNON) IS PORTRAYED AS A BAD KING (UNDERSTANDBLY). MY OPINION IS THAT RAMAYANA/LANKA VERSION OF RAMAYANA WERE THE ORIGINAL BECOS ALL THE PLACES MENTIONED IN RAMAYANA EXISTS even today, BUT TROY DOES NOT EXIST & ALL THE GREEKS RIGHT THROUGH IN HISTORY SAY THAT IT IS A LEGEND/MYTH. MANY WESTERNERS TRIED TO LOCATE TROY IN MODERN TURKEY, BUT COULD NOT, NO WRITTEN INSCRIPTIONS ANYWHERE OTHER THAN THE STORY OF HOMER. HOWEVER RAMAYANA IS INSCRIBED IN ALL OUR TEMPLES, IN ALL COUNTRIES OF THAILAND, CAMBODIA, INDONESIA, MALAYSIA, ETC..
13. Mythical Lanka/Troy were protected by Invincible God Princes - Indrajit/Hector.
14. Achilles (in the form of Patroclus -- his cousin), Laskhmana are killed by Hector/Indrjit. Lakshmana is revived by Sanjeevini. Achilles fight again with Hector as Achilles himself.
15. Achilles wears a Shield from God to battle Hector. Lakshmana prays Indra & obtains protective gear & Thunder spear to kill Indrajit
16. Mythical Lanka/Troy controlled all the sea routes & protected by Invincible Walls & princes - Indrajit/Hector.
17. Like greek kingdoms, dravidian kings were always at war, however they came together - Rama, Sugriva and others to fight Ravana.
18. Ravana/Priam are just kings & ruled for a long time with tremendous prosperity. Many dravidian texts praises Ravana for his just rule.
19. Megasthenis comes to India visits pataliputra & goes straight to Madurai. & then talks about an epic similar to Illiad of Homer (Troy story) which is many times larger in text.
20. Marco Polo visits south dravidian kingdoms & says all their gods are dark.
21. In summary, all texts - Vedas, puranas, Sastras, Ramayana, Mahabarat, etc.. are all based on south dravidian kings, places & timelines. Brahmi script (written on all south dravidian temples) is the origin for Sanskrit, Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada, Tulu, Koda - these are the only true dravidian languages. All north languages - Hindi, Punjabi, Bengali, Marathi, Bhojpuri etc.. are all persian. North temples are built on Islamic Architecture & not as per Vedic scriptures, they chant in Hindi & NOT in sanskrit. Priests in Nepal Pashupathi Nath temple are Kannadigas from Managalore/Karnataka. Thai Royal Brahmin priest send his disciples to Kanchi to learn Sanskrit. Hinduism was revived in north by Vivekananda & RSS during the british era after the decline of the mughals & they rebuilt many of the temples. There are very few temples in North India that are more than 200/300+ yrs old unlike in South India. with Ramayana propagated in all south east asian countries by Cholas, it is a story of the dravidian kings/cheftians in south india & all co-located by a few 100 kms instead of a distant North India.
22. Ramayana/Mahabarata were writted in 400 bc by Valmiki (south dravidian) who meets with Rama & teaches Lava/Kush. so these are based on dravidian cheiftans/kings
23. anything above cauvery (Ganga) was north for them. So there is NO arayan invasion - debunked by many of the western researchers.

Sanskrit, Kannada, Telugu, Tamil, Tulu, Koda, Malayalam are the true dravidian languages of this country. thats why Telugu is 70%sanskrit, Kannada, Tamil & Telugu are 50% sanskrti. Dravidian kingdom was named after the gods, madurai is Land of Nectar, Hampi land of kishkinda, Lanka - land of asuras, Pandavapura, Hastinapuram, etc.. so dravidian kingdoms are based on the puranas.

south dravidian kings who conquered thailand, cambodia etc.. propagated Ramayana, estabilished Ayodha & propagated sasnkrit becos it was their langauge. look at Bali, Suvarnabhumi (Thai) etc.. are all in sanskrit & tamil - by chola kings.

South brahmins/upper caste are all dravidians, they became fair becos they never worked in the sun. however ask them to stand in the sun, they will get sun tanned & turn dark. thats why u have charcoal brahmins.

south kings were all dark dravidians, they ruled in the name of lord ram. thats why there is a ayodhya in every country they conquered (Thai, Indonesia, Cambodia, North India etc..) Thai's proudly name their babies in sanskrit, embrace our culture with pride. Indonesia Bali is a world heritage again a significant cultural reminince of south dravidian kings.



Caste system was dravidian origin written in ancient kingdoms of Chola, Pandian etc.. but it was supposed to be flexible & only indicated what one does, rather than impose dominance. they all talk about brahmins/Kshatriya/Vysya etc.. in every script!!

Now u know how powerful & deep our culture is. thats why Tamils/Kannada/Telugu & Malayalam people are so protective of their languages & culture.

Now hopefuly we can move forward beyond caste issues in South dravidian states, & celebrate our culture. Tamil Brahmins worshipped Dark Gods - Rama Krishna Shiva Vishnu etc.. !!. Ravana was/is a dravidian Brahmin like all south brahmins - Vadaku Brahmins are from North Karnataka & Andhra pradesh !!

Addendum - the beauty of Ramayana is that it is written by both the victors (south dravidian kings/Valmiki) & the defeated (Lanka & its dravidian descendants). Lanka version goes to Greece & gets immortalized as Homer's Illiad story of Troy. Rama is God in Ramayan, Ravana/Priam is the God in Troy Story !! & both are dravidian kings - Rama & Ravana like Priam & Agmemnon are both Greek cultural icons..

Also - British/european kings claimed lineage from Troy. Dravidian kings claimed lineage from Lord Rama. !. Rama (above cauvery/ganga river) & Ravana (down south lanka) were both powerful dravidian kings & led their people to great prosperity. Similarly Pandavas & Kauravas are dravidian cheftains who fight a long battle of mahabarata. Baratavarsha is the land from Vindyas to Kerala down south - land locked kingdown with Lanka controlling all sea routes. thats why south dravidians wanted to defeat him & reduce their influence on sea routes. so thats why only the Lanka version goes to Greece & Ramayana version goes to South east asia & other countries.

Also - No north indian king has propagated Ramayana in thier conquest like the south dravidian kings. Asoka was the greatest emporer & there was NO sanskrit there -documented by ALL researchers - no dispute on this. he later converts to Buddhism which is propagated by Kannada dravidian kings/monks.

Northern indian kings were also dravidian, asoka, chandragupta maurya etc.. maurya dynasty actually starts in Karnataka, Kalinga starts in andhra pradesh till Harshavardhana dynasty all of them were dravidians. thats why u have many dark dravidians in northern india even today. Also post the Islamic rule of 700+ yrs in north india, there was a Hindu rennaissance / revival by vivekananda/RSS leaders. they studied ramayana & interpreted that Himalayas are the mountain ranges in Nepal etc.., they named many of the current locations like ayodhya, the rivers - Ganga, Yamuna & Saraswati etc... Though Kannada rulers & Kalinga - andhra rulers ruled many parts of northern india & propagated hinduism/ramayana etc.. in the distant past most were destroyed during islamic rule.

caste system in the current repressive form did NOT exist in the south dravidian kingdoms. Till Vijayanagara empire (ruled by Chalukyas) in north karnataka/andhra, all people were treated equally, a place of just rule - documented by all Greek, Chinese, Persian travellers. It is only after its collapse during 1650+, & subsequent emergence of British & later, did the caste system in the repressive form get entrenched. so at best it was the last 300 yrs & is the worst part of our great dravidian culture !! But this is NOT the case in Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia Cambodia etc.. where Hinduism was propagated by Cholas, there is NO such repressive Caste system.

LASTLY, TROY STORY SUBSCRIBES TO THE many dravidian claims THAT RAVANA (PRIAM) WAS A JUST/HONEST KING & WORSHIPPED SHIVA (APPOLLO), RAMA WORSHIPPED/INCARNATION OF VISHNU. WAR BETWEEN RAVANA (PRIAM) & RAMA (AGMEMNON) ARE THE WAR OF SHIVA versus VISHNU (thus starts the Shiava's & Vishnavites philosophy - the war splits the dravidian society) SIMILAR TO APOLLO & ZEUS. HELEN/SITA WENT WITH PARIS/RAVANA ON HER OWN FREE WILL & ACCORD, NEVER FORCED BY RAVANA/PRIAM/PARIS - FROM TROY STORY !. STORY OF TROY (LANKA) IS SO PIOGNANT THAT MILLIONS CRIED OVER IT (FOR RAVANA/INDRAJIT - PRIAM/HECTOR) & STILL DO WHEN THEY HEARD/HEAR THE STORY. THIS CANNOT HAPPEN UNLESS RAVANA WAS TRULY A JUST/HONEST KING & THE GREEKS MUST HAVE KNOWN HIM WELL BECOS HE CONTROLLED ALL SEA ROUTES. SO THE STORY OF RAMA & RAVANA MUST BE A STORY (MERGING THE STORY OF RAMAYANA & HOMER'S ILLIAD TROY) OF TWO TRULY POWERFUL KINGS & FIGHTING FOR POWER TO CONTROL THE SEA ROUTES. GREEKS HAD NO REASON TO GLORIFY RAVANA (PRIAM), BUT CHOLAS/SOUTH DRAVIDIANS HAD EVERY REASON TO GLORIFY RAMA SINCE IT WAS THEIR KING. MY OPINION - IS TILTED IN THE FAVOUR OF RAVANA/TROY/LANKA STORY AS GREEKS ARE THE NUETRAL PARTY HERE & HAD ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO GLORIFY RAVANA (PRIAM) & MUST HAVE TRULY BEEN SHOCKED AT THE DESTRUCTION OF A GREAT EMPIRE CALLED LANKA/TROY !!

TAMIL KINGS/CULTURE IS NO DOUBT THE GREATEST IN THE INDIAN SUBCONTINENT. TAMILS CONQUERED OR FOUGHT IN ALL THE COUNTRIES AROUND (HISTORICALLY TAMILS ARE PRESENT HERE, NOT RECENTLY MIGRATED)- SRILANKA, SINGAPURA, MALAYASIA, INDONESIA, THAILAND, CAMBODIA, ETC.. ALL THESE INSCRIPTIONS ARE IN TAMIL & SANSKRIT ONLY. THEY ARE ONLY ONES WITH NAVAL FLEET UNMATCHED IN ANCIENT TIMES, NORTH INDIAN KINGS DID NOT HAVE SUCH NAVAL FLEETS EXCEPT FOR KALINGA RULED BY ANDHRA RULERS. TAMIL KINGS HAVE BEEN HISTORICALLY WARRING WITH LANKAN KINGS, MANY DOCUMENTED STORIES FROM DRAVIDIAN, JAIN, BUDDHIST TEXTS OF CHOLAS, PANDYAS, CHERAS WARRING WITH THEM DURING 800 TO 100 BC DURING WHICH TIME RAMAYANA ORIGINATED. INSTANCES OF TAMIL KINGS RANSACKING THE CITY OF ANURADHAPURA IN LANKA. THE PART OF LANKA CLOSER TO INDIA ARE PREDOMINANTLY TAMILS, SUBSTANTIATING CLAIMS THAT RAVANA WAS A DRAVIDIAN TAMIL BRAHMIN (CASTE SYSTEM CAME FROM DRAVIDIANS). THATS WHY MANY TAMIL DRAVIDIAN STORIES ARE VERY SYMPATHETIC TO RAVANA. ALL CITIES MENTIONED IN VEDAS/SASTRAS/RAMAYANA/MAHABARATA ARE ALL IN TAMIL NADU, KARNATKA, KERALA, ANDHRA, & LANKA. METHORA POINTS TO MADURAI (AS MENTIONED BY MEGASTHENIS HIMSELF) & NOT SOME UNKNOWN NORTH INDIAN CITY. KANSAPURAM IS IN TAMIL NADU CLOSET TO MADURAI, SO KRISHNA RULED FROM MADURAI (MATHURA).... APART FROM KAILASPURAM, SRIVAIKUNTAM, AYOTTIYAPATTINAM, HASTINAPURAM, THIRUMALA (KUBEIRA), PANDAVAPURA, VATAPI, KISHKINDA (DOCUMENTED BY ALL AS IN HAMPI OF KARNATAKA WHICH LATER WAS THE MOST FAMOUS OF ALL DRAVIDIAN KINGDOMS OF VIJAYANAGARA) ETC.. ARE ALL IN TAMIL NADU, ANDHRA & KARNATAKA.

THE REASON YOU HAVE SOME OF THESE CITIES IN NORTH INDIA/THAILAND/INDONESIA.. IS BECOS RAMAYANA WAS TAKEN THEIR BY THE KARNATKA/ANDHRA/TAMIL DRAVIDIAN RULERS. IN ALL CONQUERED LAND DRAVIDIANS ESTABLISHED AYODHYA, MATHURA ETC... & RULED IN THE NAME OF LORD RAMA, KRISHNA, ETC..

AFTER READING THIS, HOPEFULLY U WILL BETTER APPRECIATE RAVANA & IN MY OPINION HE IS THE GREATEST TAMIL DRAVIDIAN KING UNPARALLED IN HIS WISDOM, JUSTICE, WEALTH, POWER & PROBABLY GREATER THAN RAMA HIMSELF. I AM NOT SIDING WITH THE RAVANA SYMPATHETICS HERE, BUT GOING BY EASTERN/WESTERN TEXTS, LEGENDS, MYTHS BY ALL SOURCES !!! HENCE RAVANA IS RIGHTFULLY WORSHIPPED BY MANY DRAVIDIAN PEOPLE IN INDIA - BOTH SOUTH INDIA & NORTH INDIA . !!

OH RAVANA THE GREATEST NOBLE KING EVER, UNPARALLELED IN YOUR RIGHTNESS, WISDOM & JUSTICE !. HOW CUNNINGLY YOU WERE UNDONE BY RAMA LAKSHMANA SUGRIVA & HANUMAN ACTIVELY SUPPORTED BY THE GODS !! CRIES AN OLD LADY AFTER RAVANA/PRIAM IS KILLED IN THE LANKA (TROY) VERSION OF RAMAYANA !!

Only in North Hindus, you have the situation of very fair skinned people (so called aryans) worshipping Dark Gods. No where in history you have this. Greek gods are all white. gods reflected the local people & color. South Brahmins while they are fair, are NOT as fair as North Indians. & they turn dark when sun tanned. Charcoal Brahmins & far too many of them !! Caste system is a dravidian origin - Nowhere else inlcluding persia, central asia, Huns, Kushanas etc.. But all Tamil Kings talk about caste system - Brahmin as a word come only in our texts, but NEVER in any other culture. ! Ramayana/Mahabarata legends cannot exist in Vaccum without any historical basis. so they must be based on local kings in india & their wars/lives. the fact that Chola empire propagated ramyana/sanskrit & tamil so much in all south east countries shows their naval poweress, & a very powerful evidence that this is their story, legacy, culture, Kings & religion. all South east asia countries have writings only in Tamil & Sanskrit, no other indian language !! for eg., Angor Vat (vattaram) greatest temple in Bali includes detailed inscriptions in sanskrit & tamil only. Add to this, the fact that the tamil kings have been warring with lanka for centuries & eventually ransacking/buring anuradhapura/lanka !! BUT NO SINGLE HISTORICAL INSTANCE OF ANY NORTH INDIAN KING COMING TO SOUTH INDIA & WAGING A WAR WITH LANKA EVER IN ANY DOCUMENTED TEXT, HENCE NORTH INDIANS CAN ONLY/DO CLAIM IT IS A MYTH LIKE THE GREEKS. BUT IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO ENSIVION SUCH A COMPLEX STORY & WRITE IT WITHOUT A BASIS TO LOCAL KINGS/STORIES, FOLK TALES ETC.. + SO MUCH EVIDENCE OF SUCH A STORY/PLACES/FOLK TALES IN SOUTH INDIA/LANKA !! Proud dravidian kings will NEVER propagate Ramayana to all south east asia where a "Aryan Rama" kills a "Dark Dravidian Ravana" & that too rule in the name of Aryan Lord Ram. Impossible. So Rama had to be Dark & one of their Anscetors !!

Source Texts - Vedas (Rigveda & Yajur Veda), Ramayana, Mahabarata, Analysis of Legends of Ganga, South Indian temple towns & locations, south east asia cities (Ayodhya in Indonesia, Ayuttya in Thailand, Bali, Suvarnabhumi etc..) scripts written in SEA countries + on our South Dravidian Temples + extensive study of Homer's Illiad Troy Story + Odyssues + Greek Gods/Culture + Western research.

Posted by a Tamil Brahmin
 
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jaykay,

welcome to the forum. please give us a bio background, how and where you have come up with all this information - please quote sources. thanks.
 
Hi Kunjuppu, my sources are based on writings done by many western + eastern texts + historical locations in south india/south east asia/archealogical evidences. Also Ramayana is propagated by south cholas in all south east asia countries is a very powerful evidence that it was their text, legacy, their kings & story. all South east asia countries have writings only in Tamil & Sanskrit, no other indian language !! for eg., Angor Vat (vattaram) greatest temple in Bali includes detailed inscriptions in sanskrit & tamil only.
 
Hi Kunjuppu, Also - No north indian king has propagated Ramayana in thier conquest like the south dravidian kings. Asoka was the greatest emporer & there was NO sanskrit there -documented by ALL researchers - no dispute on this. he later converts to Buddhism which is propagated by Kannada dravidian kings/monks. Regards,
 
Hi Kunjuppu, welcome. 2 more points. Northern indian kings were also dravidian, asoka, chandragupta maurya etc.. maurya dynasty actually starts in Karnataka, Kalinga starts in andhra pradesh till Harshavardhana dynasty all of them were dravidians. thats why u have many dark dravidians in northern india even today. Also post the Islamic rule of 700+ yrs in north india, there was a Hindu rennaissance / revival by vivekananda/RSS leaders. they studied ramayana & interpreted that Himalayas are the mountain ranges in Nepal etc.., they named many of the current locations like ayodhya, the rivers - Ganga, Yamuna & Saraswati etc... Though Kannada rulers & Kalinga - andhra rulers ruled many parts of northern india & propagated hinduism/ramayana etc.. in the distant past most were destroyed during islamic rule.
 
Hi Kunjuppu, One more thing. caste system in the current repressive form did NOT exist in the south dravidian kingdoms. Till Vijayanagara empire (ruled by Chalukyas) in north karnataka/andhra, all people were treated equally, a place of just rule - documented by all Greek, Chinese, Persian travellers. It is only after its collapse during 1650+, & subsequent emergence of British & later, did the caste system in the repressive form get entrenched. so at best it was the last 300 yrs & is the worst part of our great dravidian culture !! But this is NOT the case in Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia Cambodia etc.. where Hinduism was propagated by Cholas, there is NO such repressive Caste system.
 
Whats this??I thought there is no such thing as the Aryan & Dravidian divide.
But you know one thing I have noted most shlokas describe the hair of Lord Vishnu,Lord Krishna and even Hanuman Ji as curly?

I wonder why? Isnt there any straight hair Divinities?
Some of us do come with straight hair too.
 
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Hi Renuka, you are right. there is no aryan/dravidian divide. I am just substantiating that Rama was a dravidian king like Ravana, & Bharatavarsha is confined to "Vindyas to Kerala" + a dravidian lanka - by both eastern texts - Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabarata, etc.. + Troy Story a version of Lanka's destruction. + extensive westren texts + that south brahmins were/are all dravidians & they are not some aryan imports !!
 
Mr. K,
I have a bridge in Brooklyn, NY for sale. Would you like to buy it, i can sell it to you very cheap.
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:rolleyes:
 
Here I am reproducing an article in Nilachaaral E Magazine about Lord Rama in Sanga Ilakkiyangal.

உலக இலக்கியங்களில் சங்க இலக்கியம் மிகவும் பழமையானது என்பதை ஆராய்ச்சியாளர்கள் அனைவரும் ஒருமனதாக ஏற்றுக் கொண்டுள்ளனர். தலைச்சங்கம், இடைச்சங்கம், கடைச்சங்கம் என மூன்று பெரும் சங்கங்கள் தமிழ் இலக்கிய வளத்தின் செழுமைக்குத் தக்க சான்று!

ராமர் ஒரு புனைகதைப் பாத்திரமா அல்லது ஜீவனுள்ள ஒரு உண்மை நாயகனா என்பதற்கு சங்க இலக்கியம் அற்புதமான பதிலைத் தருகிறது.

புறநானூறின் 378ம் பாடல்

தென் பரதவர் மிடல் சாய,
வட வடுகர் வாள் ஓட்டிய
தொடையமை கண்ணித் திருந்து வேல் தடக்கைக்
கடுமா கடைஇய விடுபரி வடிம்பின்,
நற்றார்க் கள்ளின், சோழன் கோயில்,
புதுப்பிறை யன்ன சுதை செய் மாடத்துப்,
பனிக்கயத் தன்ன நீள்நகர் நின்று, என்
அரிக்கூடு மாக்கிணை இரிய ஒற்றி,
எஞ்சா மரபின் வஞ்சி பாட,
எமக்கென வகுத்த அல்ல, மிகப்பல
மேம்படு சிறப்பின் அருங்கல வெறுக்கை
தாங்காது பொழிதந் தோனே; அது கண்டு.
இலம்பொடு உழந்தஎன் இரும்பேர் ஒக்கல்,
விரல்செறி மரபின செவித் தொடக் குநரும்,
செவித்தொடர் மரபின் விரற்செறிக் குநரும்,
கடுந்தெறல் இராமன் உடன்புணர் சீதையை
வலித்தகை அரக்கன் வௌவிய ஞான்றை,
நிலஞ்சேர் மதர் அணி கண்ட குரங்கின்
செம்முகப் பெருங்கிளை இழைப்பொ ழிந்தாந்தாஅங்கு,
அறாஅ அருநகை இனிதுபெற் றிகுமே
இருங்கிளைத் தலைமை எய்தி,
அரும்படர் எவ்வம் உழந்ததன் தலையே.

ஊன்பொதி பசுங்குடையார் என்னும் புலவர் சோழன் செருப்பாழி எறிந்த இளஞ்சேட் சென்னியைப் பாடி எழுதிய இந்த அரிய பாடலின் சாரம் வருமாறு:

தென் பரதவரின் குறும்புகள் அடங்க, வட வடுகரின் வாளால் ஏற்பட்ட கேடுகள் நீங்க, அவரை ஒடுக்கி மேம்பட்டவன் இவன்! இச் சோழனின் நெடு நகரிலே, வெண்சுதை மாடத்தின் முற்றத்திலே நின்று என் கிணையை இயக்கி, எஞ்சா மரபினனான சோழனின் வஞ்சிச் சிறப்பைப் போற்றிப் பாடினேன். எமக்கென இயற்றப்படாத அரசர்க்கே உரித்தான நல்ல அணிகலன்கள் பலவற்றையும் அவன் எமக்கு ஏராளமாக அளித்தான். அதனைக் கொண்டு என் சுற்றத்தாரிடம் சென்று கொடுத்தேன். அவர்கள் கண்டு திகைத்தனர்! விரலில் அணிவன செவியிலும், செவியில் அணிவன விரலிலும், அரைக்குரியன கழுத்திலும், கழுத்திற்கு உரியன இடையிலுமாக மாறி மாறி அவர்கள் அணிந்தனர்! அவரது செயலைக் கண்டவர் கைகொட்டி நகைத்தனர். 'சீதையின் அணிகளை கண்ட குரங்கினம் அணிந்ததென' இராமாயணத்தில் சொல்லப்படும் தன்மை போலிருந்தது அந்தக் காட்சி!

என் சுற்றத்தின் வறுமையும் தொலைந்தது! அவர் முகத்தில் நகையும் அரும்பிற்று.

பழமையான சங்க இலக்கியம் வழக்கில் இருந்து வரும் ஒரு செய்தியைச் சுட்டிக் காட்டி நகைச்சுவையுடன் 'குரங்குகள் சீதையின் ஆபரணங்களை மாறி மாறி அணிந்தது போல என் உறவினரும் மாறி மாறி அணிந்தனர்' என்று கூறுவது பொருள் பொதிந்த ஒன்று.

அகநானூறு 70ம் பாடல்

வென்வேற் கவுரியர் தொன்முது கோடி
முழங்கிரும் பௌவம் இரங்கும் முன்றுறை
வெல்போர் இராமன் அருமறைக்கு அவித்த
பல்வீழ் ஆலம் போல
ஒலி அவிந் தன்றுஇவ் அழுங்கல் ஊரே (அகம் 70 - வரிகள் 13 முதல் 17 வரை)

இராமன் அரக்கரை வெல்லுதற்குச் செய்யும் போர் பற்றிய அரிய மறைச் செய்தியை வானர வீரர்களோடு ஆராய்தற்பொருட்டுக் கோடிக்கரையில் பல விழுதுகளுடைய ஆலமரத்தின் கண் பறவைகள் ஆரவாரிக்கும் ஆரவாரத்தைக் கைகவித்து அவித்தனன் என்பது மேற்கண்ட பாடல் தரும் அற்புதச் செய்தி.

நடந்திருந்தாலன்றி இப்படிப்பட்ட புனைகதைகள் வழக்கில் வர முடியாது; அதிலும் பாடலில் மேற்கோளாக இடம் பெற முடியாது. தனுஷ்கோடியை 'தொன் முது கோடி' என்று பாடல் கூறுவது மிகவும் ஆழ்ந்த பொருளைத் தருவதாகும்.

'காலம் காலமாக இருந்து வரும் கோடி' என்ற அர்த்தத்தை உற்று நோக்கினால் எல்லையில் காலம் முன்னர் நடந்த அரிய சம்பவமும் அது சார்ந்த இடமும் நமக்குப் புலனாகும்.

கலித்தொகை தரும் இராவணன் பற்றிய தகவல்

இது தவிர கலித்தொகை பாடல் 139ல் 33 முதல் 37 முடிய உள்ள வரிகளைப் பார்ப்போம்:

"இமையவில் வாங்கிய ஈர்ஞ்சடை அந்தணன்
உமையமர்ந்து உயர்மலை இருந்தனன் ஆக
ஐயிரு தலையின் அரக்கர் கோமான்
தொடிப்பொலி தடக்கையிற் கீழ்புகுத்து அம்மலை
எடுக்கல் செல்லாது உழப்பவன் போல"

இந்த வரிகள் அரக்கர் கோமானான பத்துத் தலை இராவணன் இமய மலையை எடுத்ததை அழகுறக் கூறுகிறது. ஆக, இப்படி இராவணன் இமைய மலை எடுத்தது, இராமன் தனுஷ்கோடியில் ஆலோசனை செய்தது, குரங்குகள் சீதையின் ஆபரணங்களை இடம் மாறி அணிந்தது போன்ற செய்திகள் சங்க இலக்கியத்தில் அழகுற ஆங்காங்கே தக்க இடத்தில் அமைந்துள்ளன.

இராமன் வாழ்ந்தாரா என்ற் கேள்விக்குச் சங்க இலக்கியம் தரும் பதில் இது!
.

சேது என்ற சொல்லின் பொருள்

சேது என்பது ஒரு பழமையான வடமொழிச் சொல். இதன் பொருள் அணை என்பதாகும். இதை 'ஸஹ இதும் கந்தும் ஷக்யதே அனேனேதி ஸேது:' என்ற பழமையான சொற்றொடரால் அறியலாம்.

இதுவே கரைகளை உடைத்து நீர் வெளிவராமல் இருக்கும் கரைக்கும் உரித்த சொல்லாக ஆகிறது. ஆகவேதான், 'நிஸ்ஸேது' என்ற சொல் சமூக மற்றும் கௌரவத்திற்குரிய சட்டங்களை உடைப்பவனையும் குறிக்கும் சொல்லாக ஆனது.

இமயம் முதல் சேது வரை ஒரே பாரதம்!

ராமர் அமைத்த சேதுவைக் காக்கும் உரிமை தமிழக மன்னர் குலமான சேதுபதிகளுக்கு உண்டு. அவர்களின் வரலாறு மிகவும் பழமை வாய்ந்தது; மரியாதைக்குரியது. ராமர் ஸ்தாபித்த சேது சமஸ்தானத்தின் முதல் சேதுபதி முதல் இன்றைய சேதுபதி வரை ராமர் பாலத்தை அவர்கள் கட்டிக் காத்து வருகின்றனர். கி.பி.1605ம் ஆண்டிலிருந்து சேதுபதி வம்சத்தின் ஆதாரபூர்வமான வரலாறு நமக்கு இன்று கிடைக்கிறது.

இந்தக் குறுகிய சுமார் 400 ஆண்டுகள் வரலாறை அலசி ஆராய்ந்து பார்த்தாலும் முழு பாரத தேசமே சேதுவின் மீது கொண்ட பக்தி எவ்வளவு என்பதை விளக்கும். சங்க இலக்கியம் இமயமலையை எடுத்த ராவணனையும் குறித்தது. கோடிக்கரையில் ராமனின் சேது பற்றிய ஆலோசனையையும் குறிக்கிறது.

தமிழின் சங்க இலக்கியத்தைத் தவிர, "ஆ ஸேது ஹிமாசல" - இமயம் முதல் சேது வரை என்ற சொற்றொடரை - ஒரே பாரதம் என்ற ஒற்றுமைத் தொடரை - வேறு எந்தப் பழமையான இலக்கியத்தால்தான் நிரூபிக்க முடியும்!?
 
Hi Kunjuppu, my sources are based on writings done by many western + eastern texts + historical locations in south india/south east asia/archealogical evidences.

Dear Jaykay
It would be nice if you cite the reference texts.
Anyway a thought provoking article.
 
Here I am reproducing an article in Nilachaaral E Magazine about Lord Rama in Sanga Ilakkiyangal.

உலக இலக்கியங்களில் சங்க இலக்கியம் மிகவும் பழமையானது என்பதை ஆராய்ச்சியாளர்கள் அனைவரும் ஒருமனதாக ஏற்றுக் கொண்டுள்ளனர். தலைச்சங்கம், இடைச்சங்கம், கடைச்சங்கம் என மூன்று பெரும் சங்கங்கள் தமிழ் இலக்கிய வளத்தின் செழுமைக்குத் தக்க சான்று!

ராமர் ஒரு புனைகதைப் பாத்திரமா அல்லது ஜீவனுள்ள ஒரு உண்மை நாயகனா என்பதற்கு சங்க இலக்கியம் அற்புதமான பதிலைத் தருகிறது.

புறநானூறின் 378ம் பாடல்

தென் பரதவர் மிடல் சாய,
வட வடுகர் வாள் ஓட்டிய
தொடையமை கண்ணித் திருந்து வேல் தடக்கைக்
கடுமா கடைஇய விடுபரி வடிம்பின்,
நற்றார்க் கள்ளின், சோழன் கோயில்,
புதுப்பிறை யன்ன சுதை செய் மாடத்துப்,
பனிக்கயத் தன்ன நீள்நகர் நின்று, என்
அரிக்கூடு மாக்கிணை இரிய ஒற்றி,
எஞ்சா மரபின் வஞ்சி பாட,
எமக்கென வகுத்த அல்ல, மிகப்பல
மேம்படு சிறப்பின் அருங்கல வெறுக்கை
தாங்காது பொழிதந் தோனே; அது கண்டு.
இலம்பொடு உழந்தஎன் இரும்பேர் ஒக்கல்,
விரல்செறி மரபின செவித் தொடக் குநரும்,
செவித்தொடர் மரபின் விரற்செறிக் குநரும்,
கடுந்தெறல் இராமன் உடன்புணர் சீதையை
வலித்தகை அரக்கன் வௌவிய ஞான்றை,
நிலஞ்சேர் மதர் அணி கண்ட குரங்கின்
செம்முகப் பெருங்கிளை இழைப்பொ ழிந்தாந்தாஅங்கு,
அறாஅ அருநகை இனிதுபெற் றிகுமே
இருங்கிளைத் தலைமை எய்தி,
அரும்படர் எவ்வம் உழந்ததன் தலையே.

ஊன்பொதி பசுங்குடையார் என்னும் புலவர் சோழன் செருப்பாழி எறிந்த இளஞ்சேட் சென்னியைப் பாடி எழுதிய இந்த அரிய பாடலின் சாரம் வருமாறு:

தென் பரதவரின் குறும்புகள் அடங்க, வட வடுகரின் வாளால் ஏற்பட்ட கேடுகள் நீங்க, அவரை ஒடுக்கி மேம்பட்டவன் இவன்! இச் சோழனின் நெடு நகரிலே, வெண்சுதை மாடத்தின் முற்றத்திலே நின்று என் கிணையை இயக்கி, எஞ்சா மரபினனான சோழனின் வஞ்சிச் சிறப்பைப் போற்றிப் பாடினேன். எமக்கென இயற்றப்படாத அரசர்க்கே உரித்தான நல்ல அணிகலன்கள் பலவற்றையும் அவன் எமக்கு ஏராளமாக அளித்தான். அதனைக் கொண்டு என் சுற்றத்தாரிடம் சென்று கொடுத்தேன். அவர்கள் கண்டு திகைத்தனர்! விரலில் அணிவன செவியிலும், செவியில் அணிவன விரலிலும், அரைக்குரியன கழுத்திலும், கழுத்திற்கு உரியன இடையிலுமாக மாறி மாறி அவர்கள் அணிந்தனர்! அவரது செயலைக் கண்டவர் கைகொட்டி நகைத்தனர். 'சீதையின் அணிகளை கண்ட குரங்கினம் அணிந்ததென' இராமாயணத்தில் சொல்லப்படும் தன்மை போலிருந்தது அந்தக் காட்சி!

என் சுற்றத்தின் வறுமையும் தொலைந்தது! அவர் முகத்தில் நகையும் அரும்பிற்று.

பழமையான சங்க இலக்கியம் வழக்கில் இருந்து வரும் ஒரு செய்தியைச் சுட்டிக் காட்டி நகைச்சுவையுடன் 'குரங்குகள் சீதையின் ஆபரணங்களை மாறி மாறி அணிந்தது போல என் உறவினரும் மாறி மாறி அணிந்தனர்' என்று கூறுவது பொருள் பொதிந்த ஒன்று.

அகநானூறு 70ம் பாடல்

வென்வேற் கவுரியர் தொன்முது கோடி
முழங்கிரும் பௌவம் இரங்கும் முன்றுறை
வெல்போர் இராமன் அருமறைக்கு அவித்த
பல்வீழ் ஆலம் போல
ஒலி அவிந் தன்றுஇவ் அழுங்கல் ஊரே (அகம் 70 - வரிகள் 13 முதல் 17 வரை)

இராமன் அரக்கரை வெல்லுதற்குச் செய்யும் போர் பற்றிய அரிய மறைச் செய்தியை வானர வீரர்களோடு ஆராய்தற்பொருட்டுக் கோடிக்கரையில் பல விழுதுகளுடைய ஆலமரத்தின் கண் பறவைகள் ஆரவாரிக்கும் ஆரவாரத்தைக் கைகவித்து அவித்தனன் என்பது மேற்கண்ட பாடல் தரும் அற்புதச் செய்தி.

நடந்திருந்தாலன்றி இப்படிப்பட்ட புனைகதைகள் வழக்கில் வர முடியாது; அதிலும் பாடலில் மேற்கோளாக இடம் பெற முடியாது. தனுஷ்கோடியை 'தொன் முது கோடி' என்று பாடல் கூறுவது மிகவும் ஆழ்ந்த பொருளைத் தருவதாகும்.

'காலம் காலமாக இருந்து வரும் கோடி' என்ற அர்த்தத்தை உற்று நோக்கினால் எல்லையில் காலம் முன்னர் நடந்த அரிய சம்பவமும் அது சார்ந்த இடமும் நமக்குப் புலனாகும்.

கலித்தொகை தரும் இராவணன் பற்றிய தகவல்

இது தவிர கலித்தொகை பாடல் 139ல் 33 முதல் 37 முடிய உள்ள வரிகளைப் பார்ப்போம்:

"இமையவில் வாங்கிய ஈர்ஞ்சடை அந்தணன்
உமையமர்ந்து உயர்மலை இருந்தனன் ஆக
ஐயிரு தலையின் அரக்கர் கோமான்
தொடிப்பொலி தடக்கையிற் கீழ்புகுத்து அம்மலை
எடுக்கல் செல்லாது உழப்பவன் போல"

இந்த வரிகள் அரக்கர் கோமானான பத்துத் தலை இராவணன் இமய மலையை எடுத்ததை அழகுறக் கூறுகிறது. ஆக, இப்படி இராவணன் இமைய மலை எடுத்தது, இராமன் தனுஷ்கோடியில் ஆலோசனை செய்தது, குரங்குகள் சீதையின் ஆபரணங்களை இடம் மாறி அணிந்தது போன்ற செய்திகள் சங்க இலக்கியத்தில் அழகுற ஆங்காங்கே தக்க இடத்தில் அமைந்துள்ளன.

இராமன் வாழ்ந்தாரா என்ற் கேள்விக்குச் சங்க இலக்கியம் தரும் பதில் இது!
.

சேது என்ற சொல்லின் பொருள்

சேது என்பது ஒரு பழமையான வடமொழிச் சொல். இதன் பொருள் அணை என்பதாகும். இதை 'ஸஹ இதும் கந்தும் ஷக்யதே அனேனேதி ஸேது:' என்ற பழமையான சொற்றொடரால் அறியலாம்.

இதுவே கரைகளை உடைத்து நீர் வெளிவராமல் இருக்கும் கரைக்கும் உரித்த சொல்லாக ஆகிறது. ஆகவேதான், 'நிஸ்ஸேது' என்ற சொல் சமூக மற்றும் கௌரவத்திற்குரிய சட்டங்களை உடைப்பவனையும் குறிக்கும் சொல்லாக ஆனது.

இமயம் முதல் சேது வரை ஒரே பாரதம்!

ராமர் அமைத்த சேதுவைக் காக்கும் உரிமை தமிழக மன்னர் குலமான சேதுபதிகளுக்கு உண்டு. அவர்களின் வரலாறு மிகவும் பழமை வாய்ந்தது; மரியாதைக்குரியது. ராமர் ஸ்தாபித்த சேது சமஸ்தானத்தின் முதல் சேதுபதி முதல் இன்றைய சேதுபதி வரை ராமர் பாலத்தை அவர்கள் கட்டிக் காத்து வருகின்றனர். கி.பி.1605ம் ஆண்டிலிருந்து சேதுபதி வம்சத்தின் ஆதாரபூர்வமான வரலாறு நமக்கு இன்று கிடைக்கிறது.

இந்தக் குறுகிய சுமார் 400 ஆண்டுகள் வரலாறை அலசி ஆராய்ந்து பார்த்தாலும் முழு பாரத தேசமே சேதுவின் மீது கொண்ட பக்தி எவ்வளவு என்பதை விளக்கும். சங்க இலக்கியம் இமயமலையை எடுத்த ராவணனையும் குறித்தது. கோடிக்கரையில் ராமனின் சேது பற்றிய ஆலோசனையையும் குறிக்கிறது.

தமிழின் சங்க இலக்கியத்தைத் தவிர, "ஆ ஸேது ஹிமாசல" - இமயம் முதல் சேது வரை என்ற சொற்றொடரை - ஒரே பாரதம் என்ற ஒற்றுமைத் தொடரை - வேறு எந்தப் பழமையான இலக்கியத்தால்தான் நிரூபிக்க முடியும்!?

I feel references to Rama in cangam literature does not disprove the OP because none of the given references allude to a North Indian Rama as such. May be what jaykay767 is the truth and cangam poets were only reflecting the southern Rama, Ravana, etc.
 
Dear Jaykay
It would be nice if you cite the reference texts.
Anyway a thought provoking article.

Dear Saarangam, 3 premises for this logic.

1. Only in North Hindus, you have the situation of very fair skinned people (so called aryans) worshipping Dark Gods. No where in history you have this. Greek gods are all white. gods reflected the local people & color. South Brahmins while they are fair, are NOT as fair as North Indians. & they turn dark when sun tanned. Charcoal Brahmins & far too many of them !! Caste system is a dravidian origin - Nowhere else inlcluding persia, central asia, Huns, Kushanas etc.. But all Tamil Kings talk about caste system - Brahmin as a word come only in our texts, but NEVER in any other culture. !
2. Rama is clearly explained as Dark in Valmiki Ramayan & other Ramayana's. so people claiming Rama as aryan fair skinned seeing the ramanand serial is absurd.
3. Ramayana/Mahabarata legends cannot exist in Vaccum without any historical basis. so they must be based on local kings in india & their wars/lives. the fact that Chola empire propagated ramyana/sanskrit & tamil so much in all south east countries shows their naval poweress, & that this is their story, legacy, culture & religion. & to the fact that the tamil kings have been warring with lanka for centuries & eventually ransacking/buring anuradhapura/lanka !! BUT NO SINGLE HISTORICAL INSTANCE OF ANY NORTH INDIAN KING COMING TO SOUTH INDIA & WAGING A WAR WITH LANKA EVER IN ANY DOCUMENTED TEXT !! Proud dravidian kings will NEVER propagate Ramayana to all south east asia where a "Aryan Rama" kills a "Dark Dravidian Ravana" & that too rule in the name of Aryan Lord Ram. Impossible. So Rama had to be Dark & one of their Anscetors !!

Source Texts - Vedas (Rigveda & Yajur Veda), Ramayana, Mahabarata, Analysis of Legends of Ganga, South Indian temple towns & locations, south east asia cities (Ayodhya in Indonesia, Ayuttya in Thailand, Bali, Suvarnabhumi etc..) scripts written in SEA countries + on our South Dravidian Temples + extensive study of Homer's Illiad Troy Story + Odyssues + Greek Gods/Culture + Western research.
 
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Indian mythology is conveniently devoid of any scientific proof. Our archaeological finds are not documented to prove or disprove the myth.
In the absence of proof or need for it we keep spinning tall tales.

"No individual character like Krishna or Rama can be found through archaeology," said Prof. B.D. Chatopadhyay of the Centre for Historical Studies at JNU.
"Archaeology can reconstruct the material culture of a people. Krishna
is known from legends, epics and puranas. Interpolating archaeology
with literature is fraught with difficulties. The efforts of some
historians and archaeologists to correlate textual evidence with
archaeological finds have not found a consensus even among themselves,
and serious archaeologists are questioning the exercise."

http://www.hvk.org/specialarts/ichr/articles/0006.html
 
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Indian mythology is conveniently devoid of any scientific proof. Our archaeological finds are not documented to prove or disprove the myth.
In the absence of proof or need for it we keep spinning tall tales.

"No individual character like Krishna or Rama can be found through archaeology," said Prof. B.D. Chatopadhyay of the Centre for Historical Studies at JNU.
"Archaeology can reconstruct the material culture of a people. Krishna
is known from legends, epics and puranas. Interpolating archaeology
with literature is fraught with difficulties. The efforts of some
historians and archaeologists to correlate textual evidence with
archaeological finds have not found a consensus even among themselves,
and serious archaeologists are questioning the exercise."

Dear Prasad, Ramayana, Mahabarata cannot exist in vaccum. It is NOT possible to write such "unbelievably long/detailed/sub stories texts" without references to local kings, folk tales, stories, intervowen with myth. Troy story was taken as a legend/myth by all greeks, but now you know it is a Lankan version of ramayana. South dravidian kings were warring for centuries with Lanka & ransacked/burning Anuradhapura/Lanka - documented by all history books on Lanka. All cities of ramayana/mahabarata/vedas etc.. are in south india!!. The problem with this version (which fits perfectly all of them), is that it cuts of North India & they want to/are claiming for last 200+ yrs that Rama is a North Indian King. But u dont find Thai/Indonesia/etc.. claiming Rama is their King despite Ayodhya being there !!. So u will find many NOT agreeing with this. The problem of introducing a North Indian King is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO HISTORICAL BASIS IE. NO NORTH INDIAN KING EVER CAME TO SOUTH INDIA & WAGED ANY TYPE OF WAR, LET ALONE WITH LANKA - NONE OF THE HISTORICAL FIGURES/TEXTS HAVE ANY SUCH INFO BUT MANY SOUTH DRAVIDIAN KINGS WENT TO WAR WITH LANKA !!

TRUTH needs to be told no matter what & MOST IMPORTANTLY THE SOUTH DRAVIDIANS NEED TO KNOW THEY ARE THE ORIGINATOR OF HINDUISM, JAINISM, BUDDHISM & THROUGH LANKA - ORIGINATOR OF TROY/GREEK GODS/CULTURE !. PEOPLE LIKE KUNJUPPU/ETC.. WILL NEED TO BE UNDOUBTLY PROUD ABOUT THIER CULTURE INSTEAD OF LOSING IT IN THE UNFORTUNATE ISSUE OF CASTE SYSTEM !

AND WE AS TAMIL BRAHMINS MUST BE MAGNANIMOUS ENOUGH TO ADMIT THAT RAMA KRISHNA SHIVA VISHNU ARE DARK DRAVIDIAN GODS MODELLED ON DARK DRAVIDIAN KINGS & WE ARE ALSO DRAVIDIANS & NOT SOME IMPORTED ARYAN RACE !! WHICH IS THE TRUTH & ALL LEGENDS/TEXTS, HISTORICAL BOOKS, EVIDENCES POINT TO !!

"I AM HAPPY TO DEBATE, STAND CORRECTED, CHANGE MY OPINION IF ANY OF MY DATA/THESIS & DERIVATIONS ARE INCORRECT"

Satya Meva Jayathe !
 
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Dear Prasad, Ramayana, Mahabarata cannot exist in vaccum. It is NOT possible to write such "unbelievably long/detailed/sub stories texts" without references to local kings, folk tales, stories, intervowen with myth. Troy story was taken as a legend/myth by all greeks, but now you know it is a Lankan version of ramayana. South dravidian kings were warring for centuries with Lanka & ransacked/burning Anuradhapura/Lanka - documented by all history books on Lanka. All cities of ramayana/mahabarata/vedas etc.. are in south india!!. The problem with this version (which fits perfectly all of them), is that it cuts of North India & they want to/are claiming for last 200+ yrs that Rama is a North Indian King. But u dont find Thai/Indonesia/etc.. claiming Rama is their King despite Ayodhya being there !!. So u will find many NOT agreeing with this. The problem of introducing a North Indian King is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO HISTORICAL BASIS IE. NO NORTH INDIAN KING EVER CAME TO SOUTH INDIA & WAGED ANY TYPE OF WAR, LET ALONE WITH LANKA - NONE OF THE HISTORICAL FIGURES/TEXTS HAVE ANY SUCH INFO BUT MANY SOUTH DRAVIDIAN KINGS WENT TO WAR WITH LANKA !!

TRUTH needs to be told no matter what & MOST IMPORTANTLY THE SOUTH DRAVIDIANS NEED TO KNOW THEY ARE THE ORIGINATOR OF HINDUISM, JAINISM, BUDDHISM & THROUGH LANKA - ORIGINATOR OF TROY/GREEK GODS/CULTURE !. PEOPLE LIKE KUNJUPPU/ETC.. WILL NEED TO BE UNDOUBTLY PROUD ABOUT THIER CULTURE INSTEAD OF LOSING IT IN THE UNFORTUNATE ISSUE OF CASTE SYSTEM !

AND WE AS TAMIL BRAHMINS MUST BE MAGNANIMOUS ENOUGH TO ADMIT THAT RAMA KRISHNA SHIVA VISHNU ARE DARK DRAVIDIAN GODS MODELLED ON DARK DRAVIDIAN KINGS & WE ARE ALSO DRAVIDIANS & NOT SOME IMPORTED ARYAN RACE !! WHICH IS THE TRUTH & ALL LEGENDS/TEXTS, HISTORICAL BOOKS, EVIDENCES POINT TO !!

"I AM HAPPY TO DEBATE, STAND CORRECTED, CHANGE MY OPINION IF ANY OF MY DATA/THESIS & DERIVATIONS ARE INCORRECT"

Satya Meva Jayathe !

Shri jaykay,

I feel that your proposition has the apparent ring of truth but not the strength to withstand rigid scrutiny. My doubts (I am just an ordinary tabra without any special knowledge or scholarship) are as under:—
  1. How come the oldest rama account is written in sanskrit by valmiki, an apparently sanskrit name rather than in a Tamil or some other dravidian language by someone like Kamban?
  2. If brahmins originated in south India and were african+yedda+etc., why did they give all respect to the vedas and other scriptures all written in sanskrit, an alien tongue, and that too from the dim past, till today? Why was it that the brahmins did not think of learning their mother tongue (whether african, yedda, or anything)?
  3. Since vishnu was named as மால் in early tamil vaishnavite devotional hymns, it probably became a custom to picturize vishnu as dark coloured, மால் perhaps meaning dark also; valmiki's aim was just to depict a prince and he does not, to the best of my knowledge, describe the skin colour of any of the four except saying mahAtEjaH (very brilliant). The depiction of Rama as dark coloured (and as green coloured in "kolu bommais" since the last few decades), is a fashion trend possibly, to give the vishnu-like attributes to Rama.
  4. In the case of M.Bh. most of the place names do not belong to south India, and there is specific reference to the south as well as some areas in the NW. I would like to know how you view this point.
  5. Just as it is possible that africans reached the south Indian shores through sea, it is also possible that Australian aboriginees might have colonized south India in the pre-historic past.
  6. Srilanka's existence was well-known to Ashoka in that he sent his children Mahinda and Sanghamitra, his children, as emissaries to Lanka. Hence, it may not be unacceptable to consider that the existence of a land by name Lanka (lankaa f. in sanskrit means an unchaste woman.) was known even in the north of India from times before Ashoka itself and with some poetic imagination, and news filtering through for generations, valmiki could have imagined an island, a very prosperous city and all that.
  7. Are all hindu gods and goddesses dark coloured? No, possibly. If so, how do we explain the change from white=bad; black=good, to sugriva being golden coloured in Valmiki ramayana itself?
 
Shri jaykay,

I feel that your proposition has the apparent ring of truth but not the strength to withstand rigid scrutiny. My doubts (I am just an ordinary tabra without any special knowledge or scholarship) are as under:—
  1. How come the oldest rama account is written in sanskrit by valmiki, an apparently sanskrit name rather than in a Tamil or some other dravidian language by someone like Kamban?
  2. If brahmins originated in south India and were african+yedda+etc., why did they give all respect to the vedas and other scriptures all written in sanskrit, an alien tongue, and that too from the dim past, till today? Why was it that the brahmins did not think of learning their mother tongue (whether african, yedda, or anything)?
  3. Since vishnu was named as மால் in early tamil vaishnavite devotional hymns, it probably became a custom to picturize vishnu as dark coloured, மால் perhaps meaning dark also; valmiki's aim was just to depict a prince and he does not, to the best of my knowledge, describe the skin colour of any of the four except saying mahAtEjaH (very brilliant). The depiction of Rama as dark coloured (and as green coloured in "kolu bommais" since the last few decades), is a fashion trend possibly, to give the vishnu-like attributes to Rama.
  4. In the case of M.Bh. most of the place names do not belong to south India, and there is specific reference to the south as well as some areas in the NW. I would like to know how you view this point.
  5. Just as it is possible that africans reached the south Indian shores through sea, it is also possible that Australian aboriginees might have colonized south India in the pre-historic past.
  6. Srilanka's existence was well-known to Ashoka in that he sent his children Mahinda and Sanghamitra, his children, as emissaries to Lanka. Hence, it may not be unacceptable to consider that the existence of a land by name Lanka (lankaa f. in sanskrit means an unchaste woman.) was known even in the north of India from times before Ashoka itself and with some poetic imagination, and news filtering through for generations, valmiki could have imagined an island, a very prosperous city and all that.
  7. Are all hindu gods and goddesses dark coloured? No, possibly. If so, how do we explain the change from white=bad; black=good, to sugriva being golden coloured in Valmiki ramayana itself?


Dear Sangom,

from my earlier post (dravidian/aryan mix is correct but it did not happen in india becos there was no record of any aryan (white race) migration !)

Dravidians (incl. south brahmins) are descendants of Egyptian race. Egypt was ruled by Dark Paroahs & later by Greek White Race - Ptolemy etc.. But Ptolemy ruled in the name of the Egyptian dark gods. he does not impose his religion. all these are as per all western accounts. Result = mixed race of Dark + White.

so the dark race that migrated via Sea to south india were already a mixed race. But with a key difference. Dark race was numerically much higher than the white race. thats why majority of gods are dark & some gods are white. Only Egypt & Dravidian race worship thier Dead & glorify their Kings as Gods. thats why in Egypt all gods were dark, but in dravidian race you have a mix of Dark + White Gods to reflect the mixed race.

Language = Mix of African languages + Greek Language (mixed race !!). So Sanskrit was a result of Greek + African evolved over time. thats why all researchers claim Sanskrit is closer to European languages.

thats why Indra, Ravana are described as "Golden Hair" & Blue eyed (deep blue sea) - this mixed race knew the White Race well (read my post for more details). & to your point, Rama is described in the Valmiki Ramyana & in the puranas as long armed Dark Prince. - there is NO dispute on this. all researchers agree. !! However NO aryan (white) ever landed in India North or South ever, agreed by all researchers, thats how the aryan invasion was debunked. however every other evidence points to aryan mix (Sanskrit, fair skinned south Brahmins, White Gods/Kings (Ravana) explained in absolute detail - Golden Color Hair, Golden Colored Beard, White skin color as the white clouds etc.. )

finally the Brahmins are the same preists of Eygpt !!. you can see now all the connections, how powerful the eyptian priests were. why all our texts are claimed to be older than 3000 BC beyond into the Eygtian timeline, so much of similarity of our gods wih them. Shiva/Vishnu/Hanuman described as curly hairs, knotted hair etc.. endless similarity !! Also in any soceity, the minortiies are always the loudest becos of survival reasons & egyptian dark priests (mixed with white) had every reason to impose their dominance, explains why only brahmins studied the scriptures int he past, dominated all rituals (exactly like the eyptian priests) etc.. so our current TamBrah = long mix of Dark + White priests. thats why are all just fair not White !!. In any genetic mix, the majority will dominate in due course of time which is not the case here !!. No other race/culture has such overwhelming dominance like the Egyptian (later Dravidian) priests. thats why i said, we are TamBrams are a Black + White race becos egyptian priests were originally dark & thats why you have so many South Brahms who are dark today !! Since the Priests inter married with White, many of us are fair & the language that came out of this mix is Sanskrit & since we wrote all the texts, it is in sanskrit, though most of the kings were dark !! To add - we south brahmins are the descendants of the obnoxious/scheming Egyptian priests !! :( North Brahmins while they also came from south later got mixed with persians/muslims/kushanas etc. thats why the so called upper case in north is extremely fair !!

On the question that Rama came from North, where is the definition of North in our texts ??. if you put all evidences together, Vindyas are the Himalayas in Ramayana, Sanjeevini hills, Kasipuram, Kubeira (Thirumala), Vatapi (Karnataka), Ganga (Cauvery), Gangavathi are all in Andhra/Karnataka with exactly the same folk tales as in Ramyana. Agasthiyar Hills, ayothiapattinam, kailaspuram, Srivaikuntam, Dharmapuri (yama), Madurai (Mathura) in TN etc.. With such overwhelming evidence, how can one suppose that a Rama from North India today came to south & waged a war against lanka - No historical evidence of any king come to south let alone waging a war with Lanka. Enough evidence of south kings waging war with Lanka & finally sacking/burning down anuradhapura!!.

Pl dont get me wrong - I am NOT a Anti-North person, or biased. it is just that the North Indian Rama has absolutely no historical basis & confirmed/verified by all researchers !!. thats why after the archealogical evidence that NO temple existed under Babri Masjid, I am more than convinced we are looking at this incorrectly. for a small south king, North/Vadaku cannot be a distant North India of today with 1000's of kms away. Every purana/legend says our south kings went to ganga for a bath & come back. It would have taken them atleast a year to take a bath & come back here, not to mention the impassable Vindya Mountain ranges !! :) + All/Most South temples are built as pyramids like in egypt (Gopuram), but Most North temples do not have such pyramids (some do, becos of dravidian conquests) !!.

On mahabarata, i can show you all places in south - u just need to look for it. Madurai (Mathura), Hasthinapuram (Andhra), Pandavapura (Karnataka), Kishkhinda (Karnataka) etc.. Since Mahabarata came later & was written during 100++ AD by which time, darvidian kingdoms were well established in north (Ashoka, Maurya, Kalinga etc..), it is possible this could have happened in the current North India, however the same issue holds here. where there are a num of instances of people coming to south india beyond the Vindyas (to pandavapura in Karnataka, etc..) & most importantly, Hastinapuram, Kasipuram, Thirumala (Kubeira), Vaikuntam, Kailasapuram, Ganga (Cauvery), Triveni Sangam (in Erode), Madurai (Mathura - in a telling evidence, Megasthenes goes to Patliputra & then straight to Madurai - confirmed/agreed by all researchers. he says in his indica that he visited Madurai - the land of Krishna & heard of tales (possibly Ramayana/Mahabarata) that are much bigger than Illiad - story of Troy !!) etc..

& in every country, the dravidians conquered they established Ayodhya, (Thailand, Indonesia, Cambodia etc..) & same also holds for North India. so thats why you have many places in North India as in Ramayana & Mahabarata.

Also Marco Polo confirms - for dravidians all gods are dark & demons are white (Ravana etc..). becos this dark race was attacked by the Whites in faraway land of Egypt!!. Also a white Ravana worships Dark Shiva becos he is a son of the mixed race !!. remember Shiva is described as dark, Parvathi as white !!

Lastly if you use this thesis, you can explain every legend, myth, story, research findings, linguistics, color, soceital position (Brahmin/priests etc..) .... & this is a highly probable theory compared to any other. so ramayana/mahabrata are true legends, but they were all based on south dravidian kingdoms & their war among themselves & with Lanka !!

frankly, lets be honest, it is impossible for someone (Valmiki) or a group of people to imagine a story like ramayana/mahabarata without any local historical context wth so many sub stories, monkey people etc.. !!.

I am positive this will withstand rigorous scrutiny, however as said earlier, happy to debate & stand corrected ! Even on the most important aspect where Egyptian's buried their dead, the greek/romans at that time burned their dead. So for Egyptian/White mixed race priests to adopt this pratice is quite likely !! so every major cultural practice is either egyptian or White or at best a logical mix. !!

Cheers !

JK
 
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Shri jaykay,

I feel that your proposition has the apparent ring of truth but not the strength to withstand rigid scrutiny. My doubts (I am just an ordinary tabra without any special knowledge or scholarship) are as under:—
  1. How come the oldest rama account is written in sanskrit by valmiki, an apparently sanskrit name rather than in a Tamil or some other dravidian language by someone like Kamban?
  2. If brahmins originated in south India and were african+yedda+etc., why did they give all respect to the vedas and other scriptures all written in sanskrit, an alien tongue, and that too from the dim past, till today? Why was it that the brahmins did not think of learning their mother tongue (whether african, yedda, or anything)?
  3. Since vishnu was named as மால் in early tamil vaishnavite devotional hymns, it probably became a custom to picturize vishnu as dark coloured, மால் perhaps meaning dark also; valmiki's aim was just to depict a prince and he does not, to the best of my knowledge, describe the skin colour of any of the four except saying mahAtEjaH (very brilliant). The depiction of Rama as dark coloured (and as green coloured in "kolu bommais" since the last few decades), is a fashion trend possibly, to give the vishnu-like attributes to Rama.
  4. In the case of M.Bh. most of the place names do not belong to south India, and there is specific reference to the south as well as some areas in the NW. I would like to know how you view this point.
  5. Just as it is possible that africans reached the south Indian shores through sea, it is also possible that Australian aboriginees might have colonized south India in the pre-historic past.
  6. Srilanka's existence was well-known to Ashoka in that he sent his children Mahinda and Sanghamitra, his children, as emissaries to Lanka. Hence, it may not be unacceptable to consider that the existence of a land by name Lanka (lankaa f. in sanskrit means an unchaste woman.) was known even in the north of India from times before Ashoka itself and with some poetic imagination, and news filtering through for generations, valmiki could have imagined an island, a very prosperous city and all that.
  7. Are all hindu gods and goddesses dark coloured? No, possibly. If so, how do we explain the change from white=bad; black=good, to sugriva being golden coloured in Valmiki ramayana itself?

Also the current Himalayas are Ice Clad Mountains & nothing grows there !. so Hanuman could not have gone to Himalayas & taken the Sanjeevini. However there is a Sanjeevini Hills in Andhra closer to Vindyas (& it is North of Tamil Nadu - Ayothiapattinam - the original Ayodha !!) ! So which ever way you look at it, North clearly points to North Karnataka & Andhra. Also Kannada Kings were known as Ganga Kingdoms & Gangavathi is in Karnataka near the Origin of Cavuvery River. Cauvery is called Ganga in many folk tales!! So endless similarity on this !!.
 
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