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Theory of Karma

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Sir, i have a doubt. I am sure many ages ago i was a monkey (not that am any less now). Please don't get me wrong, but i always felt strange affinity for ethiopian monkeys like lucy (australopithecus). All thru my soul journey i must have done good and bad things, like eating up other live animals (cannibalism), and saving some live animals (like taking care of pet dogs).

There must be a bit of heidelbergensis, then neanderthalensis, in me. Before that maybe erectus or ergaster. And before that dunno exactly what. The database of my karma must be massive, spanning over millions of years, with every single deed recorded in it. The same must be true for everyone. When there are so many good and bad things in our karma databank, then why do certain events happen to us only in this birth?

Smt. HappyHindu,

The database, after all, need not be as massive as you seem to think. If you see your bank statement from day one of your openiing your account,(I don't think any bank will oblige you with such a statement) the summation figures on the debit and credit columns will be very large numbers, and, in some cases really stupendous; but the more stupendous they are the less the difference between them, meaning the balance in the account is reasonably small.

I believe Karma and its rewards are also similar. Much of all the Karmas any one of us might have done since our heidelbergensis time must have been "experienced out" and that probably is why the heidelbergensis became extinct and evolved (?) into Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens. Similarly for the rest of our journey through births.

There are three types of Karma aagaami (praarabdha), kriyamaaNa and sanchita. These are best illustrated by the example of a bowman as follows.

The bowman has already sent an arrow and it has left his hands. He cannot recall it. He is about to shoot another arrow. The bundle of arrows in the quiver on his back is the sanchita; the arrow he has shot is prarabdha; and the arrow which he is about to shoot from his bow is agami. Of these, he has perfect control over the agami, but he must surely work out his prarabdha. The past which has begun to take effect he has to experience. Praarabdha is that portion of sanchita karma which has been loaded on our back and is destined to be experienced during this lifetime - it is what may be called Fate.

Tibetan Buddhism believes that each soul, before taking a new birth, appears before a council of spiritual masters in the other world and it (the soul) is given the details of Karma which it has to experience still, good as well bad results, and also the options available to it — something similar to our IIT JEE admission, I would say. The soul selects one of the options and its birth to a particular mother in a particular family is then caused. The good things and bad things which it will have to experience are also foretold to it. The soul is almost always exercised more about the sufferings in waiting and that is why it starts crying first thing ;)
 
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The soul selects one of the options and its birth to a particular mother in a particular family is then caused. The good things and bad things which it will have to experience are also foretold to it. The soul is almost always exercised more about the sufferings in waiting and that is why it starts crying first thing
Can the soul also choose its lifespan and events of life ? If so, how? Can events be changed after birth?
 
...All you say is mind cannot be separate from the body and is not non-material. If you say the above and also say that humans possess mind, I find it difficult to understand what you mean by mind.
sravna, I am not saying humans "possess" mind, like mind is an object that humans have that object. My contention is mind is what brain does, it is not an entity, it is a feeling, or experience if you will.

Cheers!
 
namaste smt.ReNukA.

As regards your post #61, do you think there is a possibility that the subtle body can be detected using physical instruments? Perhaps a device or medicine that endows scientists with clairvoyant power might be developed, so they might all see it empirically. In such a scenario, the leader of the investigating group might perhaps give a command like, "Right. Now let us all think this thought exactly in these same words and with the same attitude and watch how it affects our subtle body..."

The objective of linking the neuro science and DNA to consciousness, it seems to me, is to do away with the myriad branches of psychological sciences and put the practioners out of business. Today's pure-scientists choose to describe these studies as pseudo-science.
 
....In other words, though we may brush off any questions with "controlled through DNA" have we (science) completely/partly understood how exactly the DNA controls the orderly growth of the foetus?
Dear Sangom sir, it is a fact that DNA holds all the code needed for the development of foetus of all animals, not just humans. This is not a controversial conclusion at all.

I am sure you are aware, in the recent times tremendous progress has been made in the science of genetics. Scientists have precisely identified the connection between gene sequences and bodily functions, deceases, etc. Gene repair therapy is also being developed for debilitating human condition. Y may be able to expand on this more.

Cheers!
 
Can the soul also choose its lifespan and events of life ? If so, how? Can events be changed after birth?

I have not read the Tibetan lore completely; may be such nuances are also treated in those texts. But my first guess is that once an option or rather a particular set of options is chosen, the life span also will depend on that overall script.

Regarding changing the events, lifespan, etc., I believe that such things will depend upon the further Karma which that optee does, the aagaamee karma. By suitably refining these during the selected life, may be it is possible to alter, at least marginally, the "praarabdha karma", though it will most probably be a case-by-case event like one of surgery for a certain medical condition; in one case it may be necessary and successful while, in another case, the surgeon himself may not recommend it.

It is this last portion which possibly Buddhism emphasizes saying that one should ensure that one's karma is right. In fact all religions also tend to give the same general advice though, when it comes to defining what is good karma and what is bad karma, they go astray and substitute the selfish designs of the religion into the overall framework of good deeds.

As stated in my previous post, good karma, irrespective of religion, "anything done to alleviate suffering in this world is a good deed or punya and anything which causes or increases such suffering is sin. Ultimately being compassionate is what it is all about." This imo has nothing to do with religion or God.
 
...I shall try to find time to read Dawkins' book. A cursory search for 'grandfather' in the book gives me the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that sharing the ancestor genes is from the paternal side, and no sharing from maternal grandfather who produced the mother of the child.
This is not true, and would be absurd as both father and mother contribute chromosomes to the foetus.

1) ultimately we descend from the primates, so aggressive behaviour is built in the genes of everyone;
and non-aggressive behavior as well. In the presence of alpha-male other members of the tribe behave in a submissive way. Further, there are species who have done away with aggressiveness within the clan for resolving conflicts, bonobos use sex for this purpose. So, aggressive behavior is not the only kind of behavior we humans have inherited from our ancestor species.


and yet when a child of normal parents is found to exhitbit cruel/aggressive behaviour right from childhood--and this is common--how does that child's genes suddenly acquire this trait in exclusion to the normal traits acquired in the ancestry chain for generations?
You answered this question yourself in the setup to the question, these come from eons of evolution. Wiki has a nice not too technical article on how off springs inherit genes from parents, here. A small excerpt:

"The effects of this mixing depends on the types (the alleles) of the gene you are interested in. If the father has two copies for an allele for red hair, and the mother has two copies for brown hair, all their children will get the two alleles that give different instructions, one for red hair and one for brown. The hair color of these children depends on how these alleles work together. If one allele overrides the instructions from another, it is called the
dominant allele, and the allele that is overridden is called the recessive allele. In the case of a daughter with alleles for both red and brown hair, brown is dominant and she ends up with brown hair."

• Thus, as I said, there is sudden disarry in the chain of immediate parents, who in this case with normal ancestry genes, has produced a child with aggressive genes!
First of all, I don't know whether there is just one particular gene sequence that produces aggressiveness. Do you have any citations for this. Even if this is so, the process by which the chromosomes combine to form a foetus is a complex one, many factors play a part. In this process some gene mutation can take place and the off spring can come to possess traits that were not present in either parents. This is a part of nature, nothing supernatural about it, no invisible karma coming in and playing tricks with the gene.

• How does science actually verify Dawkins' proposition of sharing genes from generations up in the ancestry chain? In fact I should ask, how does science empirically know from an examination of the genes when a child is born, that the child will have such and such traits?
There are certain traits that can be very precisely predicted. Sickle cell anemia is one. Eye color, baldness, etc. are traits that be predicted by looking at the genes of the parents. Any trait that arises out of gene mutations cannot predicted as such mutations are caused by a myriad of factors. Again, these are result of natural processes, not some poorva janma karma.


• So, the commonly seen facts of an aggressive child in a chain of perfectly normal ancestors up some generations, or an autistic child, or a child born with physical deformities, are all IMO the results of pUrva janma karma and not ancestory genes.
Well, your opinion is formed on the basis of faulty understanding of the facts and an allegiance to Hindu Darma.

"Besides, this is irrelevant to the main thesis that I-awareness is a brain state", you said. Well, this thread is more about karma than I-awareness.
Okay!

02. The 'significance' of a serial killer and his helpless victim is that if the former's behaviour is in his genes, I asked if the latter's helplessness in falling a victim is also in the genes. If DNA can give murderous behaviour in one person, why can't the victim's DNA give their timid and helpless behaviour?
Even if this is so, so what? You are assuming that it was helplessness that made the victims to be victims, not quite.

03. I did not mean physical fitness, but the evolution of consciousness, which, you will agree, is the most developed in man. This is man's vertical evolution from his primate cousins.
Alright!

• The horizontal evolution is the mental behaviour which is not at all uniform in man as it is in animals.
That is not Evolution as in Darwins Theory of Evolution.

As I said, they hunt and kill only for food, mate only for procreation and behave normal in their other activities of life. For example, a cat does not kill a butterfly for the sake of it, whereas a human child does it just like that.
Non-sequiter!

• If the horizontal evolution is thus aberrational in man, it should be due to his mind and desire and not his genes. This was my point. It is another issue, however, if this mind is purely physical or not.
There is no such thing as horizontal evolution. Genes do not think, it just has the code to create the chemicals for certain actions to take place. It is the brain that thinks, that thinking state is part of what gets understood as mind. All these have basis in the genes.

• So the point is love and compassion are not traits inherited from the genes, but acquired in life using the mind through the resulting experiences. Surely, these traits will be carried over in the next birth of the person, rather than percolate down the ancestory chain.
Love and compassion are rooted in the genes just as much as aggressive behavior. Snake mothers have no love for her baby and leaves them to fend for itself. This is so because snake-mother love bestows no survival advantage to the baby, it is unnecessary. However, there are many species, including humans, in which the babies cannot survive without the protection of their mothers. So, babies with unloving mothers perished in larger numbers compared to babies that received mother's love and protection. Over time the gene responsible for love came to dominate and ultimately almost eliminate unloving mother. The postmortem depression must be a holdover from those times of unloving mothers. All this is rooted in the genes, not some supernatural karma.

The poorva-janma Karma theory has absolutely no basis in fact. Only the religiously motivated argue in in its favor and offer nothing by way of evidence. The field of genetics is a well established scientific field and their copious findings are facts, verifiable facts, and humans have benefited enormously from their research. Gene theory offers tangible benefits, Poorva-janma karma theory offers us misery and oppression.

Cheers!
 
namaste Servall.

Nara in post #63 and Sangaom in post #73 have given excellent answers to your queries, to which I have nothing to add, within the ambit of my limited familiarity with scriptures, except that I too believe in karma affecting one's progeny as seen from the incidents narrated by Sangom.

• As far as I know, the type of retribution to one's karma--actions as envisaged in Hindu Dharma is not the 'eye-for-eye' kind, but manifestation of negative karma as deformities in physical body, diseases and other adverse circumstances, either in the same or in subsequent births. Swami Sivananda has written a book titled Karmas and Diseases, which can be downloaded here: The Divine Life Society--Free Books on Yoga, Religion and Philosophy

As for the practical use of the value of karma theory, if you are a believer, consider this:

• In Christianity and Islam, disembodied souls await their fate on the Judgment Day, whose date is unknown. This means that no soul has reached the heavens (or hell for that matter) until this day.

• At least in Hinduism, bad karma is punished by a stint in hell, and then rebirth in adverse circumstances; good karma is rewarded with a stint in heaven plus rebirth in favourable circumstances. The rebirth is decided according to the overall propensity of the soul. This means that most souls have chance to attain heaven and enjoy the good work done in the previous birth, and there are souls which have reached the worlds past the heavens, being fed up with the reincarnation cycle. Getting past the reincarnation cycle is the goal and legacy of every soul.

• In Science, there is only one life, and that is physical, so doing good or bad does not matter in the strict sense of scientific concepts. Yet the scientists and atheists would advocate for good work and good traits like love and compassion, maybe due to the situtation that science is not the answer to all the problems in life.
 
namaste shrI Sangom.

I know/hope you do not mean by your bank statement example of karma database that good and bad karma cancel out each other and there is only a balance of either good karma (credit) or bad karma (debit)--post #76. Please check my understanding of it:

• Everyone must experience the effects of bad karma separately until it is exhausted. This could be the reason why even jIvan-muktas suffer bodily and mentally in their last life; and people who are known to be perfectly wise and good suffer from adverse circumstances or even physical ailments.

• Good karma is to be experienced separately by rewards in afterlife and rebirth, such as a stint in the heavens (until the good karmas exhaust themselves) and favourable circumstances in rebirth.

We talk so much about good and bad karma that let us remember Yama's accountant, Chitragupta, who maintains our karma database, by this shlokam:

chitraguptam mahA prAjnam lekhanIpatra dhAriNam |
chitra-ratnAmbara-dhArarN madhyastham sarvadehinAm ||

The Chitra-Guptas, who are endowed with great intelligence and copious memory, keep records and preserves on leaves with their stylus, the memory of every act of the souls. Wearing jewels of precious stones, they mediate as umpire between all souls that are embodied.
--Swami Sivananda, http://www.dlshq.org/download/hindufest.htm#_VPID_3

Your bowman's example is apt. Is it from SwamiJ's website Yoga Meditation or do our scriptures have this description?
 
Dear Saidevo ji,

You wrote:
We talk so much about good and bad karma that let us remember Yama's accountant, Chitragupta, who maintains our karma database,


You know another school of thought that says that Chitragupta is actually the function of the Chitta portion of the Antahkarana and Gupt meaning secret.
So the Chitta is like a microchip that stores all Karmic info and unfolds to us upon death.
 
Dear Messrs. Yamaka (#57), Nara (#63), Sangom (#73), Saidevo (#83) and everyone else who enlightened me with your answers to my questions: Big Thank you.

Mr. Saidevo:
As for the practical use of the value of karma theory, if you are a believer, consider this

Yes I am a believer only in the sense that science has not been able to prove to me beyond doubt that karma and rebirth are a myth and can never exist based on clear "evidence" whatever that may be!! There are too many abstract things that science perhaps has not fully explained. Given the assumption that I believe in Karma and rebirth, I like the "edict' prescribed in Hinduism that good things done by me in this life is going to be benefit someone else in the future. I would have very much liked if Hinduism believed that only good things move on NOT BAD things!! That "someone else" to suffer because of nothing (s)he had done in the past, is beyond me!! One might argue if good things can transcend, why not the Bad? True.

This discussion is intense and lovely to see arguments from all quarters, especially science. Will there be any consensus on any of these discussions, perhaps not. But wouldnt that be wonderful to summarize only the FACTS that everyone agrees on..? I dont quite understand many of the arguments, so it cannot be me!!!

IMO, what Mr. Sangom said in #73 perhaps makes the most sense to me in terms of the practical use of this concept:

I therefore believe that our Karma works in accordance with some grand design or, some very intricately grand principles and this is the main cause for the many inequalities, suffering and pain in this world. And, according to my belief anything done to alleviate suffering in this world is a good deed or punya and anything which causes or increases such suffering is sin. Ultimately being compassionate is what it is all about but this works as a constant caveat for man not to swerve from the right path and also explains the inequalities

I have always wondered what the purpose of each one in this life: I would have liked we all came into this world with a visible expiry date so we know when we need to depart, that way the hunger for money, power, the inqualities in lives, ego, anger and everything else would assume lesser proportion and perhaps what Sangom suggested that each of us do, would assume more of an importance. But then again, one dies at birth vs at 92...where is the hunger for the later to do anything of importance until a later age!!!!!!!!!oh well...may be this is for another thread.

Have a good day everyone.
 
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namaste shrI Sangom.

I know/hope you do not mean by your bank statement example of karma database that good and bad karma cancel out each other and there is only a balance of either good karma (credit) or bad karma (debit)--post #76. Please check my understanding of it:

• Everyone must experience the effects of bad karma separately until it is exhausted. This could be the reason why even jIvan-muktas suffer bodily and mentally in their last life; and people who are known to be perfectly wise and good suffer from adverse circumstances or even physical ailments.

• Good karma is to be experienced separately by rewards in afterlife and rebirth, such as a stint in the heavens (until the good karmas exhaust themselves) and favourable circumstances in rebirth.

We talk so much about good and bad karma that let us remember Yama's accountant, Chitragupta, who maintains our karma database, by this shlokam:

chitraguptam mahA prAjnam lekhanIpatra dhAriNam |
chitra-ratnAmbara-dhArarN madhyastham sarvadehinAm ||

The Chitra-Guptas, who are endowed with great intelligence and copious memory, keep records and preserves on leaves with their stylus, the memory of every act of the souls. Wearing jewels of precious stones, they mediate as umpire between all souls that are embodied.
--Swami Sivananda, Hindu Fasts & Festivals

Your bowman's example is apt. Is it from SwamiJ's website Yoga Meditation or do our scriptures have this description?

Shri Saidevo,

Namaste! My feeling is that both good and bad karma produce their own reactions and both have to be experienced and will not cancel each other. But some sort of twist has come about due to which the concept of "praayaschittam" and/or "parihaaram" has come into the Hindu religion; these have created a general feeling among people that one may do any unethical action but sharing a part of the profit with God will wipe off the "sin". Priesthood, both temple priests and vaideekans, encourage this thinking because it is to their advantage.

The bowman's example is from Sivananda's web page only. I have come across another example perhaps in jnaanavaasishtam, not sure. It talks about a farmer, his stock of seeds, seeds already sown by him and irrigated which are about to germinate and the seed in his hand which he may or may not sow.

This looks better in one aspect; seeds which have already been sown and irrigated bring out 'tendencies in Man which he has consciously allowed to grow within him'.

The database of Karma, according to the Tibetan Buddhists' belief, is revealed to the soul immediately on death so that it can reevaluate its immediate past life and assess its pluses and minuses for itself. After its ordained stay in the "other world", when the soul is to come down to earth for the next birth, the karma database is again revealed to it so that it can appreciate what it ought to perform in the next birth and how best it can equip itself with characteristics suitable for that enterprise.
 
namaste Servall.

• In Science, there is only one life, and that is physical, so doing good or bad does not matter in the strict sense of scientific concepts. Yet the scientists and atheists would advocate for good work and good traits like love and compassion, maybe due to the situtation that science is not the answer to all the problems in life.

Sri Saidevo, Kindly permit me to add some more of my thoughts...

The "Love Emotion" is too complex in itself. The concept of any form of Love has many accusations, justifications, conditions, unconditions, embarassments and as well a combination of pain/sorrow and happiness.

Niether human's the common spritiual proctices nor science, explored by intelligent human could present a formulae/thesis and a clear cut equation as what and how all kinds of Love to be perfectly identified and administered with out any lapse on one's part and that of the others.

The same can go with compassion. A human's compassion many a times disappoints some way and some one in his/her personal/social circle.

The same goes with the sense of care as well. The care for one may lead to neglect of other or not so meaningful and constructive to the other.

In all the cases of human survival, the species which is been conferred with the sense of justice and consciousness, is challenged to see within onself as how and who he/she is.

Science is towards acheiving perfection in utilization of universal resources and Spritituality/the ultimate truth is towards acheiving purity and refinment amidst Kama/Lobha/Krodha/Prema/Karma etc in this physical world. Consciousness alone is some what keeping humans in tact as humans to some extent and that consciousness in it's purest form can never be achieved with the help of science but only spirituality/self realization.

Neither we could ever pin point a date when Bing Bang happened nor we can ever specify a date for absolute collapse, doesn't matter how far we excell in science and technology.

Neither we can ever formulate and practice balanced human feelings, emotions, actions etc nor can ever achieve a standardized thinking/behavioral patter in terms of human relationships/emotions/feelings, doesn't matter how high we dwell in science and technology and keep evolving for many more millenia.

Not only the science is not the answer to all the problems in life, it can never be the source of any new life without any manupulated inputs.

The science can ahcieve a lot to the extent of making human immortal. But those immortal humans would be nothing more than Robot that may crash or be crashed with the set programs and create havoc, making hell out of every thing, living and non living entities on this Earth.

 
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"• In Science, there is only one life, and that is physical, so doing good or bad does not matter in the strict sense of scientific concepts. Yet the scientists and atheists would advocate for good work and good traits like love and compassion, maybe due to the situtation that science is not the answer to all the problems in life." -Saidevo post 83.

Let me rewrite this sentence: In Science, there is only one life that is physical AND emotional (this is inseparable in my view).

Love, compassion, "doing the right thing" are all embedded in the physical AND emotional domain of human life.

Somehow, the Theists believe that Atheists and Scientists don't care about the above mentioned qualities of life, and is the complete province and domain of God-fearing Theists... This is a myth.

To further go on this, Theists believe that their religions and Gods have created MORE peaceful and compassionate world.. the fact is it has created the real opposite... please recall what's happening in India between religious minority and Hindu majority, between Muslim Arabs and Jewish Israelis in Palestine, between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland etc..etc... please visit the jails in India: most of the convicted criminals are God-fearing, God-worshiping religious people!

In this very Forum, many ardent followers of Hinduism have advocated ideas of "Eye for an Eye" revenge behavior, and "Why didn't we shoot and kill EVR for his anti-Hinduism?" etc. etc.. You all need to see yourself in the mirror quite often! Lol.

FREE WILL and Human Genetics:
  • As of now, Free will is in the domain of only Social Scientists... Geneticists have no clue where to start in devising experiments to test any viable hypothesis. If they do, then it is still "Work in Progress"!

    The often-asked question is why the children of criminals turn out to be "good people" or why "good parents" get criminal children etc.

    To understand this, as I mentioned before, one needs to recall and appreciate the seminal works of the Austrian Geneticist Gregor Johann Mendel (1822-1863) who formulated the Laws of Gene Segregation, Independent Assortment, Dominant and Recessive Alleles, Incomplete Dominance etc etc.

    After the onset of more modern Molecular Biology and Genomics, we know that nearly 90% of human DNA has "junk" introns (intervening nucleotide sequences) between about 30,000 genes which code for proteins (some of which are structural in type like myosin in muscle and others are enzymes like Pyruvate Kinase or HMG CoA reductase etc. etc). These genes are differentially expressed in children from their parents. This is differential gene expression, and is one of the reasons for the differences between parents and children AND among children of the same parents.

    Why AR Rahman's sisters did not become as musically talented as him? Why Yuan is musically brighter than his siblings in Illaya Raja's family?

    Were MS Viswanathan's parents as good as MSV in music?

    I say ask the RNA polymerases in these individuals as to which gene(s) they transcribed and why?

    Who governs and dictates these polymerases? Nature.

    NOT the Almighty Gods or the Janma Poorva Karma, for sure.

    Stay tuned...
 
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namaste shrI Sangom.

I believe in the efficacy of parihAram/prayashchittam. Although these words are used as synonyms today, parihAram is, as you know, 'going round', that is trying to bypass an ill effect, whereas prAyashchittam means 'to atone' for a wrong deed with an intention to minimize its ill effects. Thus, prAyashchittam is meant to be the prayAs--exertion undergone to make the chittam--mind, pure. Of course, I don't believe in 'donating' to God as parihAram to offset some unethical action, although annadAnam can be a good parihAram.

Similar to the Tibetan Buddhists' belief, I remember to have read some Hindu gurus teaching that the dying soul would know the type of birth it is likely to receive in the next birth. It is also taught that the thought of God at the dying moment can prevail any ill effects. What do you think about it?

NDEs (near death experiences) have been documented that have a person who experienced it describing as having witnessed every moment of his life as a personal, running film in the final moments.
 
namaste Yamaka.

This is with reference to your post #91. Despite the refrains of your tantrums about God and religon, your posts have good scientific information, although I could only try to get an overall idea from it. Knowing that you are a scientist, I appreciate your sincerity and belief of science prevailing as the ultimate knowledge.

• But then, hey, I did not mean that scientists and atheists are not capable of love, compassion, altruism and other noble traits. I only said and meant that they cannot account for them in terms of physical science.

You speak about 'physical AND emotional domain of human life' as in the domain of physical science, right? Now, think about this:

• Let us assume that neuro and genetic scientists conduct experiments to assess the physical manifestations of the noble emotions, selecting a group of people who excel in and live by these traits.

• Let us further assume that these scientists experimentally study another group of people in whom the ignoble emotions (such as violence and greed) dominate and determine their style of living.

• How far can the scientists identify the physical manifestations of the first group as distinctly benevolent vis-a-vis those of the second group as distinctly malevolent, not just to the individuals but to the society as a whole.

• If this is possible, and made credible and foolproof, preferably with the capability of projections (not just make-believe as in the film 'What the bleep do we know'), then Science can draw 'emotional maps' of areas and code them according to the prevailing karmic levels as critical, dangerous, tolerable or peaceful.

Until something like this is seen in the daily life of practical science, it cannot be said IMO that emotions are in the purview of physical science.

By the bye, Yamaka, yourself, Nara and other scientists bring in Nature and Universe frequently for your help, at the same time trashing God and his creations. Does science have any exact definitions of what is Nature and what is Universe?
 
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namaste shrI Sangom.

I believe in the efficacy of parihAram/prayashchittam. Although these words are used as synonyms today, parihAram is, as you know, 'going round', that is trying to bypass an ill effect, whereas prAyashchittam means 'to atone' for a wrong deed with an intention to minimize its ill effects. Thus, prAyashchittam is meant to be the prayAs--exertion undergone to make the chittam--mind, pure. Of course, I don't believe in 'donating' to God as parihAram to offset some unethical action, although annadAnam can be a good parihAram.

Shri Saidevo,

I feel parihāra means to avoid, shun, pass by, to abandon, desert, leave ; to refute ; to conceal. If, as you put it, the evil effects (results) of some Karma can be by-passed - even if temporarily - then it will mean that the karma effect can be bypassed like this again and again. Somehow this looks, to me, like a negation of the Karma theory itself; Sivananda says even jeevanmuktas have to experience some part of praarabdha karma. (see here.) Same holds good for praayascittam also, atonement. Perhaps if some good Karma is done with the specific intent of atonement, it may be effective.

Similar to the Tibetan Buddhists' belief, I remember to have read some Hindu gurus teaching that the dying soul would know the type of birth it is likely to receive in the next birth. It is also taught that the thought of God at the dying moment can prevail any ill effects. What do you think about it?

The concept of Chitragupta and its literal "hidden image" meaning was first put forward by Madam Blavatsky in her Secret Doctrine, I think. You may know better than I. The subsequent embellishments and adornments to this nucleus is not very appealing to me. I tend to agree more with the idea that all this revelation (revealing?) of past Karmas after the earthly life. the Gurus seem to be making a trick to sell God's name a la Ajaamila episode which is such a favourite USP of iskcon!

NDEs (near death experiences) have been documented that have a person who experienced it describing as having witnessed every moment of his life as a personal, running film in the final moments.

I find NDEs more often than not, reveal the religious inputs of the dying person. For example no western NDE mentions having got a glimpse of any Hindu God. Hence I consider the NDEs as most likely to be mental constructs of the dying person, not real experiences.
 
"By the bye, Yamaka, yourself, Nara and other scientists bring in Nature and Universe frequently for your help, at the same time trashing God and his creations. Does science have any exact definitions of what is Nature and what is Universe?" - Saidevo in post 93.

Dear Saidevo:

By Nature or Universe, I mean everything I have "in me and around me" - including all the living beings AND abiotic materials all of which obey the laws of physics, chemistry, mathematics, biology/medicine, astronomy etc etc., including the Sun, Moon and the milky way....including all that present before my time....

On other points in your post, I just want to reiterate what I have said before -

The structural basis of LIFE is the DNA, RNA, Protein, Fat, smaller organic and inorganic molecules in the PROTOPLASM... and the FUNCTIONAL basis of life is the "interaction or the interplay" of all these molecules in the PROTOPLASM... this function includes all that's needed for the physical maintenance of the living body AND all the "feelings" "emotions" "value judgments" "distinction of joy and sorrow and preference to one and not the other" etc etc.

These are inseparable... once the PROTOPLASM dies, everything - body and the soul - vanishes... period.

If the gametes of the individuals are "fertilized", then life of this lineage continues for ever...

Nothing more.. nothing less.

The idea or the concept of Religions, Gods and the Janma Poorva Karma are MAN's own mental creations - A FICTION or a FANTASY, IMO.

Peace.

More later....
 
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Why AR Rahman's sisters did not become as musically talented as him? Why Yuan is musically brighter than his siblings in Illaya Raja's family?
Were MS Viswanathan's parents as good as MSV in music?

I say ask the RNA polymerases in these individuals as to which gene(s) they transcribed and why?

Who governs and dictates these polymerases? Nature.

NOT the Almighty Gods or the Janma Poorva Karma, for sure.

Stay tuned...


The Self (Soul), called the Individuality(Entity) is understood as a 'Knower' , whose
foremost attribute is 'Knowledge'/jnanam.

You always say 'I know the answer', 'I wrote this message', 'I thoughtover it',
but you don't say 'My brain knows the answer' or 'My hands wrote the essay'.

'I' is the Knower, Seer, doer enjoyer. If you taste a candy, tongue or mind doesnt enjoy, you enjoy.

So, the senses (elements of nature), sense organs/brain (products of nature) are the instruments/faculties, to help the Self/Individual, but it is the Self that ultimately knows, perceives, enjoys etc.

The Self whose attribute is 'Consciousness'/Jnanam, is a 'Knower' by default, when born it cries for food, diaper change etc. The born has the Knowledge of Self already, but understands through senses and responds through sense. The body is the instrument for the Self and not the Self itself. The Self can be compared to a Reservoir of Knowledge, it takes water from outside and gives it out. The very first knowledge is the Knowledge of Self, that is inherent.

When born, we come in contact with the external matter/objects and learns about them. But, such knowledge is only to finally associate them with respect to oneself. Such knowledge is 'attributive', that is understood from the association of matter. Also, Noone understands things with respect to others. Actually, we are instinctively, interested in mastering them, to achieve our goals and also choose them according to our interests and also perceive them our own way.

All these, though are based on 'the structure, organization and the composition' of our sense organs and the brain, may influence our Choice, the Perception of such knowledge/choice and its perusal is totally individual, meaning dependent on the Self. That pre-defined set of structure/composition of our organs and the Pre-defined set of exposure (parents/environment) that aid us in choosing is 'Karma'. But, making the choice right then or over time, similarly or differently is One's own inherent Nature.

There have been people who were brought christians, but with more 'attribution', they would have become atheists. Same with Happy Hindu (in general, not the user here!), overtime with constant brainstorming on topics of 'Brahmin Superiority', they would chose to become a Muslim ;) So, one's Attributive knowledge may expand or contract, not solely based on the 'external knowledge', but determined by one's Self/own perception. Such Attributive Knowledge cannot expand without both the 'Learning/Experience' and 'clear Self-Perception'. Attaining that Highest level of Expanded Consciousness (Attributive), is journey towards the Self-Realization.

Science is learning the 'Common Logic/Perception', through microscopic terms, which has taken 2000 years already and still deducing. My life ends in 60 years, I just wanted to make the best out of this life, in the shortest time possible, which could be only from our seers who has a complete philosophy.

Plus, more and more Science researches, everything would seem to be based on 'matter', as everything in the Universe is laid out very intelligently. It is only the Inferential Knowledge that would enable us see the bigger picture.
 
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"Science is learning the 'Common Logic/Perception', through microscopic terms, which has taken 2000 years already and still deducing. My life ends in 60 years, I just wanted to make the best out of this life, in the shortest time possible, which could be only from our seers who has a complete philosophy.

Plus, more and more Science researches, everything would seem to be based on 'matter', as everything in the Universe is laid out very intelligently. It is only the Inferential Knowledge that would enable us see the bigger picture."

"My life ends in 60 years, I just wanted to make the best out of this life, in the shortest time possible, which could be only from our seers who has a complete philosophy." post 96


Dear Govinda:

Your reasoning that your life ends in 60 years, and "Our Seers" have complete philosophy tells you to believe in Religions, Gods and Janma Poorva Karma is perhaps agreeable to me.

But please remember similar reasoning works with every Muslim, Christian or person of other religious cults... this starts the conflicts and mayhem in this world, as I wrote before. Only because of this potential mayhem, I stand up and object to Theists and their Jarma poorva Karma theory (of Hinduism and the like).

Yes, Scientific research moves very slowly and methodically to discover or uncover the intricacies of Nature... finally Nature Is the God, some people say, which I will agree...as an Atheist - a Naturalist.

But, then, this God or Nature will not accept or expect any poojas, prayers and all forms of "Praise the God" slogans and bhajans from any person or any thing... I strongly believe.

If all this stop, this will in theory destroy the nearly a trillion dollar a year industry that flourishes in and around the Temples, Mosques and Churches....

Will the practitioners of Vedas, Koran and Bible allow this to happen? I think NOT.... Why?

Cheers.
 
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But please remember similar reasoning works with every Muslim, Christian or person of other religious cults... this starts the conflicts and mayhem in this world, as I wrote before. Only because of this potential mayhem, I stand up and object to Theists and their Jarma poorva Karma theory (of Hinduism and the like).

Yes, Scientific research moves very slowly and methodically to discover or uncover the intricacies of Nature... finally Nature Is the God, some people say, which I will agree...as an Atheist - a Naturalist.

But, then, this God or Nature will not accept or expect any poojas, prayers and all forms of "Praise the God" slogans and bhajans from any person or any thing... I strongly believe.

If all this stop, this will in theory destroy the nearly a trillion dollar a year industry that flourishes in and around the Temples, Mosques and Churches....

Will the practitioners of Vedas, Koran and Bible allow this to happen? I think NOT.... Why?

Cheers.

... will reply soon...
 

There have been people who were brought christians, but with more 'attribution', they would have become atheists. Same with Happy Hindu (in general, not the user here!), overtime with constant brainstorming on topics of 'Brahmin Superiority', they would chose to become a Muslim ;) So, one's Attributive knowledge may expand or contract, not solely based on the 'external knowledge', but determined by one's Self/own perception.
Since there is no Happy Hindu (in general) here, the subsequent claim that it does not refer to Happy Hindu (the user here) becomes silly.

I experimented with islam and gave it up. There was nothing extra to be found there which was not already there in eastern religions. I have already mentioned this in old posts. So nothing more to add on that account. It will suffice to say that i do not beleive in religious conversions -- they are not the solution.

I believe delinking caste with worship is what is needed today. In short, going back to the phase of tribal (re)organisation where occupation was not based on birth to start off with.

I started getting involved in understanding "Brahmin Superiority" because brahmins went to courts, testified and allocated varnas; and decided the outcome of modern india -- a 'modern' India in which i also did not get reservations (and this did affect me).

I am convinced that everything which constitutes 'Brahmin Superiority" is a carefully constructed edifice; ranging from the violence of the smrithis to the intellectual subjugation of Shankara's advaita which is heavily borrowed from Saiva Siddhanta and Buddhism and yet does not allow the same Sama-dharma (equality) of humans as do Saiva-Siddhanta and Buddhism. Wud that be spiritual arrogance, i dunno ??

I consider it shameful that till date the orthodoxy upholds caste discrimination based on shastras. And although there is 'interaction' with dalits now, birth-based segregation still remains. Then there are varied brahmanical claims - one of which supposes that they represent the core of hinduism - a religion to which i belong.

I refuse to accept the abuse of hinduism. Unless labour law portions of Smatha-ism is rooted out; unless villagers get out of the mental syndrome of subjugating 'untouchables' claiming to be 'kshatriyas' and 'vaishyas'; unless people stop doing anything in the name of 'caste' (and/or), for the sake of 'caste; until then India cannot see true progress.

There is an additional problem in a rapidly changing world where info is freely available -- unless a religion adapts with the times, it will find itself in disuse. In such case, one will increasingly find people converting to other religions.

I beleive a section of 'brahmins' themselves are victims of age old ideologies. Ranting against reservations, demonising DK, disparaging politicians, blaming the brits, nailing the missionaries, etc -- all of this will bring temporary mental relief. But cannot solve (y)our problems - the problems of hinduism in a changing world.

I beleive if we understand history, we may be able to reinvent better and avoid the past pitfalls. If i have background info and/or an opinion, i will mention it. That's all. If i find posters repeating the same old stuff, i feel questioning their basis will make them look up info themselves. I maybe right or i maybe wrong. I don't know. Those who wish to avoid my posts have all the freedom to do so. Nobody is obliged to read.

Regards.
 
Dear Shri Nara,

Consider this:

Thoughts are signals too as they carry information. I will come to the question whether they travel or not like the other signals.

If they are physical signals, the physical energy required to produce such highly informative signals would be very high. Does or can the brain produce so much of physical energy? Also we do not have any physical experience or impact when thoughts are produced.

I would say that thoughts are a different level of signals that are not physical but mental. Mental signals transcend the physical realm and hence would be found everywhere when created. Thus they "travel" instantaneously to any part of the world.

The conclusion is there is an higher entity called mind which is responsible for the creation of mental signals called thoughts. Mind is the unified energy of brain. Such an unified energy is also responsible for consciousness of self.
 
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