The Fairest Flower

[renuka]

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Dear Arthur,

I know about the fact that Sathya Sai Baba had mentioned about Swami Vivekananda being reborn in Sri Lanka.

Dear Arthur,
I hope you dont mind what I have to say.
You seem at times to have harsh views and also at times come across as harsh with your words.
May be its your style and you mean good by giving taking the "Shock Treatment" route but words of wisdom sprinkled with sweet love can leave a lingering fragrance in our souls.
having made Sathya Sai Baba's teachings your Istha dont ever forget how Swami speaks.
So suffused with Love and never ever Harsh even to those who have wronged.

Just a friendly message to you.
I dont intent to hurt your feelings.
You have your points but maybe at times Pride and Prejudice takes over.
This can happen to anyone and not to you alone.

Renuka

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happy Hindu,
before I proceed I have to put a disclaimer.
No Neurologist will agree with what i have mentioned so far.
My answers have not been proved scientifically.

I still believe that the brain does not store memory.
Memory is stored in the Chitta portion of the Antahkarana.
Antahkarana as I had explained in the earlier post is made up of
Manas
Buddhi
Chitta
Ahamkara

Chitta is the microchip which stores all data and input from all our previous lifes be it Human or non Human.

The Consciousness(Chaitanya) is more developed in Humans.

Hence the full function of all the components of the Antahkarana are in play.
We have "Mana" hence called "Manava".

The Brain is just a gross structure with all the necessary structures needed to process the function of the Antahkarana.
During brain or head injury there is damage to the structural components of the brain.
There might be transient or permenant loss of function at a cellular level which might impede the memory function of the Chitta to transmit.
The memory is still in the Chitta but cannot be transmitted due to faulty/injured apparatus(the injured brain)
Function can be regained when cellular healing takes place or compensated by other areas of the brain.
As the saying goes when one door is shut God opens a window for us.

a simple example:
Just imagine the Chitta is the petrol of a car full tank to say.
The brain is the engine of the car.
Just say the engine is faulty and car wont start.
The full tank petrol would never be able to run the car till the technical fault is rectified.
Therefore the memory in the Chitta is always there, its the brain which might not be able to relate if there is an injury or any neurotransmiter disorders.

I had brought up the point of intrauterine memeory and even past lifes memory under the thread memory before.
Why are we not able to elicit intrauterine memory or past lifes memory under hypnotism?
There seems to be a barrier which prevents this.
The brain has a mechanical Blood Brain barrier which filters and blocks out substances which might harm the cerebral environment.
I wonder if there is also a subtle memory barrier which prevents us from stored intrauterine or previous lifes memory.
medically my suspicion will be thrown out of the door because medically there is no past life and the brain is developing in utero hence not fully functional yet.

I always wondered if the answer lies in the anatomy of the subtle body.
Maybe either in its chakras or in the 3 granthas-- Brahma Grantha, Vishnu Grantha or Rudra Grantha.
For that I need an expert in the anatomy of the Subtle body and Its physiologhy to enlighten me.

Swami Yogananda in His book Bhagavad Gita God talks with Arjuna has given a detail and beautiful explanation of the human mind and the role of prana in its communication with the mind and body

Just to add, the human brain or any part of the body can be stimulated to make it more condusive to receiving and transmitting impulses.
Stimulation of skeletal muscle cells in the skeletal muscle eg of the biceps can hypertrophy when stimulated by lifting weights or even with the use of anabolic steroids.
Similarly learning a new language at an older age stimulates the brain cells with the new input and makes the brain cells more receptive and condusive for the Antahkarana to function.
There are a lot of functions of the Antahkarana lying dormant which might get"discovered" by a condusive celluar functioning of brain cells.
Hence Sattvic food, thoughts, Japa, Dhyana are recommended for us to tap the "unused" potential stored in our own Antahkarana.

Dear Renuka,

Thankyou for the post. I suppose, its just that research is lacking in this area as yet - so its too early to say anything for sure.

Hypnotism may not elicit memories of past lives, but regression (an intense form of hypnotism) can. If past lives are not elicitable, then i suppose it wud mean that the brain does not function as a tool of the mind, memory, and all its complex features...

Reg head injuries and memory loss, you have explained in terms of chitta. Yes no neurologist will agree to it. Have also spoken to people in that field. Its interesting the way they consider the brain as a tool of everything, including memory.

There is a lot of research going on, into understanding parts of the brain that store speech skills, motor skills, etc, just as parts involved in memory storage. I guess that since the mind is a product of the brain, so is memory. But then, its just too early to speculate...

My guru also used to speak of chitta. Just that he did not consider it entirely de-linked from the brain. And he related it to brain function. The explanation was really complex. Its like chitta is a sort of linked, yet de-linkable unit of vasana-processing. When de-linked (controlled) it leads to samadhi. This link has almost all the explanation. I suppose you might have already gone thru it (its popular): Kundalini Yoga

Regards.

 

[renuka]

Dear Happy Hindu,

Thanks for the link.
I had read it a long time ago and will certainly go through it again to refresh my Memory.
Just to add a point.
The function of the brain and antahkarana are interrelated and interdependent even though seperate entities

the only way to prove whether brain on its own really stores memory is by dissecting a freshly deceased human brain and try to extract details from it.
Whether we can decode any areas and convert the "data stored" to a readable form.
I dont think its possible yet.

No matter how advanced medical science is we are still unable to bring the dead back to life.
That is why I believe that above all of us there is GOD.

thanks once again Happy Hindu,
renuka

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Renuka,

Looks like nowadays they use scans like mri to understand brain parts and their role in memory. Just now googled and found this: Study decodes short term memory through brain scan | Health Jockey

Memory-loss in old age, head injuries, illnesses, plays a vital role in the understanding of memory, it seems...

In one TV documentary, they showed a patient (conscious) on whom a team was performing surgery. As the surgeons operated, the patient was shown flashcards of words, alphabets, etc - it helped the team know whether the parts of the brain that they were operating on, stored memory or not.

Each time the patient was not able to respond, the surgeon left that part and went on to other parts.

Likewise there are experiments with deep brain stimulation surgeries to elicit memory response.

So it does seem like certain parts of the brain are involved in memory storage...

We may not be able to bring the dead back to life, but we can clone As yet, we cannot create artificial blood either...but in future, who knows..only God i suppose...

Have you heard that song "What if God was one of us?" by Joan Osbourne ? There is also a version by vanilla sky. i like the osborne version: YouTube - Joan Osborne - One Of Us

Regards.

 

[Nara]

No matter how advanced medical science is we are still unable to bring the dead back to life. That is why I believe that above all of us there is GOD.

Hello Renuka, why do you think there is a connection between these two? Medical science is unable to bring a dead person back to life,and therefore there must be a god??

My friend, you know very well that less than 200 years ago the cutting edge medical science was to put leaches on the skin or drain blood one way or another to cure diseases. You know more than I do that we have come a long way from that, no thanks to god.

The ultimate reality is gene survival, that is it. Once enough of these genes, via the x and y chromosomes get transmitted to new carriers, i.e. our children, the old habitat, i.e. the body of father and mother, are no longer needed and so they perish. That is all there is to it spiritually.

The brain, as you know, has excess capacity and proclivity to chemically induced emotions. This makes us susceptible to emotional swings between happiness we feel at the birth of a child, and the despair we feel at the time of the death of someone dear. These inexplicable emotions, needing some satisfying explanation, have led us to invent god.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear Happy Hindu,
Cloning is not resurrection.
Cloning is just implanting DNA into the Ova(whose nucleus has been removed) and this creates a seat for the Atma to enter and a new life with identical genetic material is created.
for example one can clone say a cat and have a cloned kitten with the identical genetic material but there are two cats.
Two different Atmas.
One can even take DNA from a dead cat and clone a new one but its a different atma all togather.
Its just the body with the identical genetic make up donned by a new atma.

deeper brain stimulation elicits memory response because the Chiita is still in contact with the anatomical "memory" portion of the brain.
Thats explains how the patients are able to rspond.
Each portion of the brain has specialized functions which is complemented by a similar subtle brain of the subtle body.

If I stimulate the visual area of the brain, I am only going to get visual responses.
I wont be getting auditory responses.
Memory like wise is elicited when the corresoponding area of the brain is stimulated and input from the chitta is conveyed.

renuka

 

[renuka]

Dear Nara,

I really cannot fully answer your Question whether there is God.
Can i ask you a question?
How can we prove there is no GOD?
Please answer me.
I really like your inputs.

renuka

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Happy Hindu,
Cloning is not resurrection.
Cloning is just implanting DNA into the Ova(whose nucleus has been removed) and this creates a seat for the Atma to enter and a new life with identical genetic material is created.
for example one can clone say a cat and have a cloned kitten with the identical genetic material but there are two cats.
Two different Atmas.
One can even take DNA from a dead cat and clone a new one but its a different atma all togather.
Its just the body with the identical genetic make up donned by a new atma.

deeper brain stimulation elicits memory response because the Chiita is still in contact with the anatomical "memory" portion of the brain.
Thats explains how the patients are able to rspond.
Each portion of the brain has specialized functions which is complemented by a similar subtle brain of the subtle body.

If I stimulate the visual area of the brain, I am only going to get visual responses.
I wont be getting auditory responses.
Memory like wise is elicited when the corresoponding area of the brain is stimulated and input from the chitta is conveyed.

renuka

there was one man who said something like this --

"nowadays science can even make the dead live...they can take cells from a dead man, create another identical man, just like the dead man and make the "dead-man live again".."

it is we who consider that the new man has a new atma......but his behaviour, his looks, his feelings, his everything is exactly like the dead man--some may not really consider him to be different from the dead man.

it all depends on how each one of us wishes to see it, i suppose...

this reminds me abt how the methodists and various other church groups wanted cloning banned - why? All becoz it goes against the religious belief that "God created Man" - the principle belief without which the church wud cease to exist.

Am not sure if God needs man or does man need God.

My definition of God is very simple Renu, its just the omnipresent prana...its everywhere..its just that some like me choose to call it 'god'....but i go to temples, worship all deities...if god is everywhere, he is in an idol as well, in various forms also na...that's why...this is just totally a religious pov on my part... but am not into it, to the extent of not accepting scientific proof (with its warts and all)...

Nice conversation Renu. Thank You.

Regards and best wishes.

 

[Nara]

How can we prove there is no GOD?

My dear friend Renuka,

I cannot prove there is no god. Logically, it is impossible to prove a negative. In other words, the onus of proof is upon those who make a positive claim.

We can be fairly certain that there is no personal god, the kind who answers prayers. We know that these prayers are never answered anywhere close to statistically significant correlation. That leaves us with an impersonal god, something like "nature" of the DMK, or that of DeCartes, or Hume, of the western philosophical thought.

Persoanally, I am more inclined to the philosophy of life that is most inclusive, loving all with the least of barriers, and for its own sake, not because there is some hidden or enigmatic truth.

I would love to continue this conversation if you find the time and interest.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear NaraJI,


I dont know what happened everything i wrote got deleted.
I am rewriting what I wrote.

So it all boils down to the fact that one cannot scientifically prove or disprove the existence of God.
None of us have seen our great great great great great great grandfather.
Would we say he did not exist.
Sometimes existence is an experience from within.

The only difference between an Astika and a Naastika is the letter Na.
The negation Na is the key to the door of further enquiry.

Doesnt the scriptures say that The Supreme Brahman can be verily be described as Neti Neti after breaking the Sandhi in Sankrit means Na iti, Na iti(,not this, not this)

GOD is a deified representation of the Supreme Brahman.
The Human mind needs a mental imprint either visual, auditory or even tactile to realate to GOD.

Numerous deities have arose from the mental moulding of the human mind.
I cannot say its wrong as mental imprints are needed in the early stages in the spiritual quest.

I cant describe GOD but neither can I deny the description of GOD.
Its more of a personal experience which I cant find the words to describe.
One does not need to know the"External GOD" but all one needs to know is one's self.
Which upon enqiury all questions will be answered.

renuka

 

[Nara]

....So it all boils down to the fact that one cannot scientifically prove or disprove the existence of God.

Yes that is true, in a technical sense. Bertrand Russel compares this conundrum to the inability to prove there is no flying celestial teapot orbiting the earth.

The odds are against the existence of god. In a scale 0 to 10, technically we cannot say we are at zero for the probability of the existence of god, but we are much closer to zero than to even the midpoint of 5.

I cant describe GOD but neither can I deny the description of GOD.

All of us were brought up either overtly or in a subtle fashion, in an environment of belief in a supernatural entity. This concept comes to us rather very naturally. I call it, rather crudely for some with soft sensibilities, the poison we pour into our children (courtesy Salman Rushdy's Midnight Children). We are brought up with Rama and Krishna as though they were part of our family, like our own kith and kin. It is hard for us to let go of these divine angles who were our heros and friends and role models of our childhood and youth.

Yet, time does not stay still, we have to grow up. While they take away our security blankets, they let us keep our imaginary friends. In fact they insist we do, for it offers them, the powers that be, he opportunity to manipulate this psychological need, as a means to control the masses and keep the order that is to their advantage.

I ma going to bed now, more later, if interested....

Cheers!

 

[sapthajihva]

Dear Shri Nara,

... Those who have pets also can vouch for the emotions animals show. All evidences point to the human brain as nothing fundamentally different from animal brains, except it is much more powerful....

Reciprocating emotions are natural; mankind's search for one of the four purusharthas is not exhibited by animals. Of course, if you do want to dismiss this lightly by saying that it is only a gradation of power, I have no qualms.

If science does not know how to bring back the dead, then it is in the same boat as believers in Vedic explanation of how things work? This is not logoical at all............

Your belief is that there exists no soul (or the monkey, as you said earlier), and it is this belief precisely which I wanted to disprove. If human body is just a combination of flesh and bones, blood and sinew, then a mere repair of the concerned tissue should revive the dead. However, we see that it is not possible.

This conclusively proves that there is a 'life-force' within ourselves which is responsible for cognition and recognition. Death is the separation of this life-force from the body. This life-force is what is called the Athma.

However, if you still want to dismiss this lightly, I can take it in my stride.
...................................................................................

Thanks for an interesting discussion though...

Regards,

 

[sapthajihva]

Dear Arthur,

My criticizing friends, do you honestly think that there is anything positive in the words that you speak against me?

There is not polarization attached to a genuine quest; however, if one is already polarized, then probably, the other would seem two steps down... don't you think?

Do you think that by continuously scoffing at my words that you will dimish their glory? Just because you cannot understand them does not mean that they are ambiguous, false, or otherwise.

Request you to run through this thread one, twice, thrice... and you will know that apart from your 'talk', there has been nothing of your revelations which you so glibly promised in the beginning...

This is suppose to be an "intelligent" forum filled with holy brahmins, but as I see it it is filled with much ignorance.

Everyone is intelligent in their own way... so are you. Differences cannot be inferred to mean 'unintelligence'!!??

Correct yourselves, my friends, if you wish to be seen as gentleman. Thus far, all your words have been barbaric, primitive, and uncivilized

I would have accepted your revelation on my stance, so piously described as above... but you have not offered even a single credible answer to the queries thrown at you. Are you not capable, in your infinite wisdom, of answering such primitive queries easily?

I am not your enemy.

Walk the talk, my friend.

Regards,

 

[sapthajihva]

.....I have been asking God how a dead soul suffers? How can a dead soul suffer if it feels nothing? And the Lord said to me, Be grateful for the pain that you are now experiencing because of the deep love you shared with a dead soul that never returned any love back to you........................ How do you think Jesus felt? His pain was also excruciating? You must feel the "agony" of unselfish giving to truly appreciate the "ecstasy" of receiving. As they say, no pain, no gain. One must truly suffer for the good of the world in order to attain genuine bliss, ecstasy. Your joy will be comensurate to your pain. So bleed for the world from the depths of your heart.

Now now Arthur, this seems straight out of the garbage can. You seem to be in terrible mental anguish. Your empathy displayed is probably an extension of your self-inflicted misery.

A wasted mind, I must say...

 

[jsridhar72]

Thank you

 

[RVR]

Sri Arthur,

You are the originator of this thread and it is your responsibility to answer genuine questions of the fellow members of the forum. If you go through the discussions in this thread, lot of eminent members of this forum have contributed and also raised questions and doubts in between. Rightnow you have left it to Prof Nara and Dr.Renuka to discuss whether there is God or not. We are not seeing any intervention from your end to bring the discussions back to the main topic which you envisaged. I earnestly request you to concentrate on the discussions on this thread and if required appropriate interventions from your end.

You somewhere declared that you are a follower of Advaitha philosophy. I am sure you are aware that all the Tamil Brahmins are not followers of advaitha philosophy. They follow atleast three schools of thought propagated by Aadhi Sankarar, Ramanujar and Madhvar. We all know the differences in the three schools and we never attempted to compare the above three philosophies. We are united here not based on these philosophies but based on certain other factors. There is atleast one atheist in this forum having expert knowledge of one of the above philosophies.

This forum encourages people not belonging to TB community to participate in the discussions/debates. There are quite a few experienced members not belonging to the TB community here and are participating in the discussions without any problem. None of us are trying to ill treat them nor the forum administration will permit us to do so. You can also disclose transparently all your intentions & expectations with respect to this forum. This will definitely help all of us to understand you better and also spend our time more purposefully. Blaming the fellow members is not going to solve any of the problems.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Arthur commented :-

"This is suppose to be an "intelligent" forum filled with holy brahmins, but as I see it it is filled with much ignorance.

Correct yourselves, my friends, if you wish to be seen as gentleman. Thus far, all your words have been barbaric, primitive, and uncivilized."

Funny enough, along comes Dr.S.Ramanathan (Arthur's multi-nick?) and says in his first post in the forum that Arthurs articles (?) have attracted extreme comments. I am still waiting for Dr.S.Ramanathan to show us the extreme comments posted by the forum members.

 

[kunjuppu]

Hypnotism may not elicit memories of past lives, but regression (an intense form of hypnotism) can. If past lives are not elicitable, then i suppose it wud mean that the brain does not function as a tool of the mind, memory, and all its complex features...

.

happy,

there was 1980 movie 'altered states' which was on the theme on going back to regression to primitive state.

Altered States (1980) - IMDb user comments

Altered States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i think, a parallel pre columbian american civilization, had methods through which we can regress to past lives.

unfortunately, all these were lost due to the ignorance of spaniards, who under the fanatic writ of the roman catholic church destroyed any such erudition.

 

[RVR]

Arthur commented :-

"This is suppose to be an "intelligent" forum filled with holy brahmins, but as I see it it is filled with much ignorance.

Correct yourselves, my friends, if you wish to be seen as gentleman. Thus far, all your words have been barbaric, primitive, and uncivilized."

Funny enough, along comes Dr.S.Ramanathan (Arthur's multi-nick?) and says in his first post in the forum that Arthurs articles (?) have attracted extreme comments. I am still waiting for Dr.S.Ramanathan to show us the extreme comments posted by the forum members.

Sri Raghy,

Please restrain from making further comments on Sri Arthur.

Dr.Ramanathan is also a senior person and let us all listen to him

This is only my humble request.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Sri RVR said:-

"Please restrain from making further comments on Sri Arthur."

I am not making any comment on any person. I comment on messages only. If I say something, I back up my words; if I can't back up my words, I eat my words. It is a very simple logic. does it not apply to everyone?

If restraing from making further comments on messages from Arthur, and Sri. Dr.S.Ramanathan is asked of me, I am more than happy to comply.

Cheers!

 

[Arthur]

Dear Renuka,

I have just read your post that you had addressed to me. I would like to say, please try to consider your own interpretation of my words. Every teacher has a slightly different mission to live. You consider only Baba's sweetness, but what of the rest? Did you know that Bhagavan Nityananda used to throw things and speak profanities at his disciples? Also, look how harshly Milarepa's guru treated him. My friend, you are missing many things when you don't view the whole spectrum. Really, you don't even understand Baba to a very deep degree.

Be this as it may, your friendship will be tested. Let me ask you, Renuka, would you die for me? Because if you wouldn't, then you really have no right to criticize anything I say. But that is okay, speak as you wish, because your right to speak will never be absolute until you are ready to die for me, for my good.

I hope these words are not too cryptic. They are simply, simple, simply real.

Your Friend and Brother,
Arthur

P.S. The sword of truth is sweet to the Atma, but bitter to the ego. Harsh. Consider your ego when you feel the harshness.

 

[Arthur]

Dear RVR,

In answer to your question, none of you have any "genuine" questions until you kill yourself, your ego, that is. I do this all in fun. Isn't this fun?

And to my other friends: do not think that God doesn't get miserable. Read the Ramayana if you do not believe me. How much mental anguish did Rama, not to speak of Sita, go through? So narrow-minded you people.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Dr.S.Ramanathan,

Respectable Sir,

I assumed your id could be a multi-nick of someone else, although I did not have concrete evidence to think like that. I should not have written something on pure assumptions. Kindly accept my apologies for suggesting that.

My assumption was based on circumstances; this forum had not passed any extreme comments about any person/any messages that I have noticed so far.

Thank you.

Cheers!

Raghy.

 

[renuka]

dear arthur,

you may be right when you say that I dont know Sathya Sai Baba deep enough.
does anybody actually really know Swami well enough.
Arthur, how can I die for you?
who actually dies?
do you want my ego to die or my body to die?
the true self never dies.


nainam chindanti shastraani
nainam dahati paavakah
nacainam kledyanty aapo
na shoshayati maarutah

 

[RVR]

Dear RVR,

In answer to your question, none of you have any "genuine" questions until you kill yourself, your ego, that is. I do this all in fun. Isn't this fun?

And to my other friends: do not think that God doesn't get miserable. Read the Ramayana if you do not believe me. How much mental anguish did Rama, not to speak of Sita, go through? So narrow-minded you people.

I don't know what do you mean by killing myself. Definitely ego has to go but is it possible to totally eliminate ego?

Rama was always clear about his objectives, was very calm (unlike you describe as `anguish') and Sita was the best campanion for Lord Rama. Lord Rama was always following the rules of the war unlike his enemies.

I think you have some ego and are calling others as narrow minded people. Before blaming others, please look inwards and assess yourself.

All the best