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The brAhmaNas and the Dalits

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saidevo

Well-known member
The brAhmaNas and the Dalits-01

The main objective of this post is to refute the baseless allegation that it was brahmins who harassed the Dalits and that they did not take enough initiatives for the welfare of the harijans. The source of information in this thread is the Tamil book 'Dalits and Brahmins' authored by the senior journalist K.C.LakShminArAyaNan.

Did brAhmaNas introduce the concept of untouchability?

The charge that it was only the brAhmaNas who introduced untouchability of the Dalits is baseless, while it was true that they were among the upper castes who practised it; it was also true that the practice of untouchability of brAhmaNas against the Dalits was only at a personal and religious level and not social, unlike that of the other castes who harassed the Dalits and continue to harass them today, socially.

In any of the Tamil texts that speak of the Hindu religion--TolkAppiyam, Sangham and post-Sangham literature, and the bhakti literature--there is no evidence for the brAhmaNas introducing untouchability of the Dalits.

A Tamil scholar, SAmi Chidambaram, who supported the policies of the Dravidian parties but changed his stand in his later years of life, has written a research work titled 'TolkAppiya Tamizhar', wherein he has rebutted the charge that brAhmaNas introduced untouchability. He says that such charge is purely based on hatred.

NAyanmAr Tiru JnAna Sambandhar

Tiru JnAna Sambandhar is one of the leading four NAyanmArs of the Shaiva Bhakti movement in Tamilnadu. He was a brAhmaNa. His close friend and associate was a man called Tiru NIlakaNTha YAzhppANar who was born in a caste considered untouchable in those days. NIlakaNTha and his wife not only stayed with Sambandhar, but travelled with him, playing the musical instrument yAzh--lyre, (which is why he was called yAzhppANar) when Sambandhar was singing.

A man called TirunIlanakka NAyanAr, who was an orthodox brAhmaNa performing daily yajnas in his home, lived in a place called SAttamangai. He welcomed Sambandhar and his harijan friend; he and his wife dined with them, and when Sambandar sought to stay in their house, he gave NIlakaNTha and his wife, a place to sleep in the very hall where the sacred yajna kuNDas called vedika was located.

Prof.A.S.JnAna Sambandhan, a famous Tamil scholar hails the social revolution of Sambandha who was a RigVeda brAhmaNa, in keeping with him a harijan and says that there could be no other better social revolution than this. SekkizhAr too in his 'PeriyapurANam' mentions about Sambandha who took his harijan friend and wife with him.

AchArya RAmAnuja

RAmAnuja, founder of the vishiShtadvaita darshan, was a brAhmaNa who was born in ShrIPerumpudUr in Tamilnadu. As every Hindu knows, although he believed in the varNa system, he did not consider anyone untouchable. When he obtained from the Delhi Sultan and brought back the ViShNu vigraha to install it in the temple, he was helped towards a safe passage en route by the harijans, when the Sultan's soldiers hunted for him.

In appreciation of their help and protection, RAmAnuja allowed the harijans to enter and worship in the temple, which was eight centuries ago, when there was stiff opposition to it. SvAmi VivekAnanda has appreciated RAmAnuja's efforts.

Jayendra Sarasvati SvAmigaL

In the current time, shrI Jayendra Sarasvati SvAmigaL, presiding pontiff of the KAnchi Shankara MaTham, often visits the places where Dalits live, partake their religious events and give them his prasAdams and blessings. This has been appreciated by several Dalit pramukhas--notables.

The Tamil magazine 'Kumudam Reporter' in its issue dated 04 Mar 2010 has written about the graceful actions of shrI ShivaprakAsha Deshika ParamAchArya SvAmigaL, who is the 23rd pontiff of the Shaiva MaTham TiruvAvaDuturai AdhInam, holding the position for the last 25 years, recently visited the villages where the caste Arundatiyars (considered Dalits) stay, gave them a lecture, and with his own hands smeared vibhUti to the men and children of the villages, to their astonishment that a leading Hindu AchArya actually touched them. He said that his close association with the Dalits was to prevent the Christian missionaries preying on them.

The initiatives taken up during the end of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th by the three most popular Hindus who were all brAhmaNas is too well known to mention here. These there men were: RAjArAm Mohan Rai, SvAmi DayAnanda Sarasvati, RAmakRShNa ParamahaMsa.

A similarly famous and great revolutionary in Tamilnadu was the mahAkavi SubrahmaNya BhArati, a jnAni par excellence, who spoke severely against varNa and jAti in his popular poems and fought for the Dalits in his daily life. While the members of the Justice Party which was the parent party for the DrAviDa Kazhagam of EV RAmasvAmi, sided with the British and accused BhArati as a 'pArppanar'--brahmin, BhArati's disciple BhArati Dasan who thus changed his real name Kanaka Subburatinam, supported his guru and said, "before him (BhArati), for many centuries, I have not seen anyone thus opposing the jAti concept. Nevertheless, the then Justice Party government of the Madras Presidency imposed a ban on BhArati's sons, a fact unknown to many Dalits, who are made to believe that the Justice Party and DK of EVR were only their staunch supporters and then all the brahmins were their enemies. Only after the Congress rule was formed in the state in 1937 under the leadership of RAjAji, was the ban lifted.

Who harass the Dalits in actuality?

Dr.A.PadmanAbhan, IAS, former Governor of Mizoram, in his book 'Dalits at the cross-roads' has explained as to who in actuality seek to harass the Dalits:

"The perpetrators of crime, atrocities, rape, tyranny in the name of caste, untouchability, etc. in rural India on the Scheduled Castes are mostly from the Backward classes.

"There are also cases involving upper castes. But the majority of the culprits belong to those sections, who are brought under 'Dalit' along with the Scheduled Caste and Tribes by certain leaders."

This is the current state obtaining against the Dalits, especially in Tamilnadu. Today, brAhmaNas in no way involved in the oppression of the Dalits in Tamilnadu.

Gandhiji's campaign against untouchability

When Mahatma Gandhi initiated a campaign against untouchability and ordered people all over India to work for it, the brAhmaNas were fully appreciative of it, and many of them were actively involved in it, in the face of the deliberate vilifying campaign of EVR and his people in Tamilnadu.

• The first government to end untouchability in India, in practice and law, was the Trivancore government headed by Sir C.P.RAmasvAmi Aiyar. His efforts were much appreciated by KAmarAj, Dr.P.SubbharAyan, Karumuthu ThyAgarAja CheTTiar, Dr.C.O.KaruNAkaran and GAndhiji himself--who were all not brAhmaNas.

• A former CM and the last Governor General of independent India, ShrI RAjAgopAlAchArya's efforts in the upliftment of Dalits are too well known to be mantioned. For all such efforts, RAjAji was ostracised from the brahmin community, but he met their opposition with even more intensified efforts. There were several brahmins who supported RAjAji and they were all ostracised. There were also non-brahmins who criticized RAjAji for his efforts of Dalit upliftment.
 
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saidevo

Well-known member
The brAhmaNas and the Dalits-02
Harijana AiyangAr

During the time of independence struggle, Gandhiji made an appeal that in order to remove untouchability, every Hindu should adopt a boy from a harijan family, rear him and make him progress in life. Several thousand Hindus listened to this appeal and rearer the harijan children. One among them was P.S.KriShNasvAmi AiyangAr. The harijan boy reared him later become a big government official; his name, MAnAmadurai K.Sambandham. 'Harijana AyyangAr' is a book Sambandham wrote on his foster parent.

MahAkavi BhArati dedicated his book 'ARil oru pangu--One-sixth of share of it', to the farmers, paLLar, paraiyahs, cobblers and such other parishuddha--very pure, VaiShya brothers. Sambandham dedicated his book to this great poet.

He describes in this book that his foster parent PSK aiyangAr lived a life of 94 years, dedicating it to the principles of GAndhIyam. His wife RukmiNI ammAL was a very pious woman. PSK aiyangAr was a practising lawyer in the MAnAmadurai district munsif court. He involved himself in the struggle for independence and went to jail for two years.

PSK selected a harijan boy from the American Mission school run by the Christian priests in MAnAmadurai, obtained the consent of the boy's father to rear the boy as a Hindu, and got the boy admitted to the fifth grade, in a school run by Okkur VeLLaiyan CheTTiAr where the majority of students were brahmins, thus setting a precedent. The boy was proficient in Tamil, obtained the first rank, and thus was seated in the first row as the first member in the class, which was again the first of its kind. PSK made the boy come home from school passing through the brahmin's agrahAram--street, and the initial opposition gradully gave way to the power of reasoning. PSK also slowly changed the mind of his orthodox wife into accepting the boy as hers.

PSK taught the boy Sambandham how to wear the dhoti, how to wear the vibhUti and such other religious things. He made the boy sing BhArati's songs, wear khAdi--handloom clothes, and taught him cotton spinning using a spindle. Whenever he took the boy with him to Madurai on works related to his profession, the people used to refer to the boy as 'aiyangAr paiyan'. He visited the harijan settlements, and moved with them freely.

As part of his religious and dharmic training of the boy, PSK obtained five promises from him: 1. Never to touch liquor; 2. Never to change his religion under any circumstance; 3. Always to wear handloom clothes; 4. Never to take bribe; 5. Always involve his life in activities that would be fruitful for the people. These promises helped Sambandham to make him a honest and upright government official later.

Following AyyangAr's example, other upper caste Hindus in MAnAmadurai took up welfare initiatives for the harijans in their area.

Can we see at least one example of a politician who has such vociferous hatred for the minority brahmin community and sheds crocodile tears for the Dalits, take up and rear a harijan boy or girl and spend their own wealth for their welfare?

*****

• Another progressive brAhmaNa who took up the cause of the harijans was the famous author Kalki (Kal.KRShNamUrti). His novel 'ThyAga bhUmi' crusaded against the untouchability practise and created a storm when published in the 'Ananda Vikatan' magazine and later made into a film. The English government, to quell the protests, banned the film, which was relased only after Indian attained independence.

‣ The author of the book and movie script of 'ThyAga bhUmi' was Kalki, a brahmin;
‣ The director SubrahmaNyam, who took the risk to bring out the film was a brahmin;
‣ The playback singer D.K.PaTTammAL was a brahmin;
‣ The main role Shambhu ShAstri in the film was played by PApAnAsham Shivan, a brahmin.

• Gandhiji started Harijana Seva Sanghams--Harijan Welfare Associations, in every district of the country. Several active participants and office bearers of these Associations were brahmins. One among them in Tamilnadu was K.R.KaLyANarAma aiyar who was in-charge of the Deenabandhu Ashram. Under his administratration, the Deenabandhu Ashram won the appreciation of VIPs such as RAjAji, KAmarAj, P.RAmamUrti (the Communist Party leader), P.JIvAnandam, M.S.SubbhalakShmI, actor M.R.RAdhA and many others.

The DK party leader E.V.Ramasamy was surprised at the teaching methods and the students' discipline at the Ashram and willingly gave it a donation of ONE RUPEE, which was kept as a memorial.

• Tamilnadu has not seen a 100% political leader and minister after P.Kakkan, who was a Dalit leader and freedom fighter and served the country in various ministerial posts in the Congress government in the erstwhile Madras state between 1957 and 1967 and also as a member of parliament. His teacher was VaidhyanAtha aiyar who shaped him to honest public life. VaidhyanAtha aiyar was another active member of the Harijan Seva Sangham and contributed monetarily to its activities. VaidhyanAtha aiyar was also famous for his initiative in taking the harijans inside Madurai MInAkShiamman temple on July 8, 1939, much against opposition from orthodox brahmins, upper castes and even the Justice Party, who was the ruling party in the state but did not seek to remove the law against untouchables entering temples. The Tamilnadu Harijana Seva Sangham published in May 1991, a biography of VaidhyanAtha aiyar, titled 'Harijana thandhai--father of the harijans'.

Dr.V.SvAminAtha ShAstri When the Congress conference was held in Trichy in the year 1961, a pandal was prepared to accommodate one lakh people. KAmarAj was asked as to select a name for the Pandal. Without any hesitation he said, "Name it after SvAminAtha ShAstrigaL, a real Gandhian. People have forgotten him."

Dr.V.SvAminAtha ShAstri took his graduation in medicine from the Madras Medical College, where Dr.LakShmaNasAmi MudaliAr was his classmate. Dr.ShAstri started his medical practice in Trichy, went to the Dalit settlements and gave them free medical service. Orthodox uppercaste people sought to ostracise him, but that did not deter him. In appreciation of his work for harijan welfare, Dr.RAjendra PrasAd gifted him a golden spindle and medal. Later when Dr.ShAstri went to jail participating in the freedom struggle, he extended his medical help to the people in jail.

GopAlakRShNa Gokale, a MarAti brahmin, whom Gandhiji appreciated as his political guru, in the year 1905 startted the 'Servants of India Society' for the welfare of the tribals in India. A well-known exponent of the Society, S.R.VenkaTarAman was a brahmin. He started the Takkar BAbA Gurukulam in NIrkAshi, UTakamaNDalam, Tamilnadu, for the ToDa tribals; SillakkUr Silvindia school for the YenAdi tribals; DevadAr school for the tribals Pania and KATTunAyaka who live in the KozhikODu, Malappura areas of Kerala. He also wrote a book on the tribals in India.

• A list of 42 brahmins who were actively involved in the efforts of harijan welfare in Tamilnadu and mentioned with brief details of their work by Sambandham in his book are:

‣ K.V.SubbhA Rao, a friend of RAjAji;
‣ Dr.TSS.RAjan; Lawyer LN.GopAlsAmi aiyar of LAlguDi;
‣ LN.GopAlsAmi aiyar, lawyer and social worker;
‣ V.BhAShyam aiyangAr, Madras High Court Judge;
‣ KalliDaikkurichi Yajnesvara Sarma, who changed the Ashram established by VVS aiyar into a harijan hostel;
‣ KalliDaikkurichi Sankara aiyar, social worker;
‣ KalliDaikkurichi LakShmi Sankara aiyar;
‣ G.MahAdevan, son of political tyAgi Gomati Sankara DIkShitar, and wardon of a harijan hostel;
‣ DevakOTTai M.MukundarAja aiyangar, lawyer;
‣ S.RAjan aiyangar, a government official;
‣ MAnAmadurai N.RAmasAmi aiyar, a friend of PS KRShNasvAmi aiyangAr;
‣ DevakOTTai RangasAmi aiyangAr known as 'Harijan RangaNNA';
‣ Madurai N.SrInivAsa Varada aiyangAr, a friend of poet BhArati and his wife ‣ PadmAsinI AmmAL;
‣ V.SAranAtha aiyangAr, former principal of National College, Trichy, who admitted the maximum possible number of harijan students to his college;
‣ Dr.R.KALamegham aiyar, extended free medical help to harijan students;
‣ LAlguDi TS.AnanthanArAyana aiyar, a social worker for harijan welfare;
‣ MAyanUr KG.SivasAmi aiyar, who started a polytechic for harijan students;
‣ MAyanUr SAmbaShiva aiyar, warden of the harijan hostel;
‣ PerambalUr school teacher Narasingha aiyangar;
‣ Anbil RAjagopAla aiyangar, an engineer, who gave free land to harijan hostel;
‣ Trichy Dr.RAmachandra aiyar, who established scholarships for harijan students;

‣ J.NatarAja aiyar, an employee of the Cooperative Bank, who collected rice and conducted a samapankti bhojanam for harijans every year on the day of Gandhi Jayanti;

‣ ThanjAvUr VV.SaTagopAchAryar, social worker;
‣ MannArguDi Dr.PV.MuthukRShNa aiyar, social worker and crusader for harijan welfare;

‣ ThanjAvUr V.PUvarAga aiyangAr, lawyer;
‣ KumbakONam Dr.MK.SAmbashiva aiyar, social worker and father of the famous agricultural scientist of India, Dr.M.S.SvAminAthan;

‣ South Arcot NArAyaNa aiyar, an engineer, who dug wells in the South Arcot village in harijan settlements;

‣ ChinnasAlem K.VenkaTesa aiyar, social worker;
‣ Dr.PS.SrInivAsan, a popular medical doctor in KAnchipuram, who established a polytechnic for harijan students in Chengalput;

‣ KAnchi Dr.PS.RaghurAman, social worker;
‣ VelUr N.Somasundaram aiyar, popular lawyer and chairman of Vellore Municipality;

‣ SAlem VAnchinAtha aiyar, who gave up his government service, lived with the harijans in their settlements and worked for their welfare;

‣ TiruchencoDu ThyAgarAja aiyar, social worker;
‣ NAmakkal A.RangAchAri, lawyer and social worker;
‣ Kottagiri G.MahAdeva aiyar, social worker;
‣ Chennai Changu S.Ganesan, who established a polytechnic for harijan students;
‣ PN.SankaranArAyaNa aiyar, who established the Gokulam harijan colony;
‣ Coimbatore K.SubrahmaNyan, a deshabhakta and social worker;
‣ GopicheTTipALayam ShrIkaNTha aiyar, who gave water to harijans from the agrahAram wells;
‣ GopicheTTipALayam V.RAma aiyangAr, who dug wells for the harijan people;
‣ TiruvArUr Dr.VV.NAganAtha aiyar, who created awakening among the harijans;

*****

• Dr.B.R.Ambedkar is adored as the god of Dalits all over India. What many people do not know is that there were three brahmins who played a key role in his life. They were:

‣ His school teacher BhImA Rao, whose name AmbedkAr added as a prefix to his name;

‣ KRShNAji Arjun Keluskar, who read and appreciated AmbedkAr's books, introduced him to the Baroda King SAyAji Rao GaekvAd, which was a timely help for the young crusader against untouchability;

‣ Dr.ShArada who treated him in a Mumbai hospital. AmbedkAr took this woman as his second wife, after his first wife RamAbAi died young.

*****
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
saidevo,

i think the issue being not whether we have had a select few leaders giving a hand to the panchamas.

given a chance, the desire to do good, is there with all of us, except the extremes. to do good is the right thing, whether it be dalit or any other disadvantaged person.

all this is only at the street level. it is when one enters the household, that even today, how many of us entertain knowingly dalit friends. is it not a habit among many to have separate tumblers for maids?

at the mind level, we have here, youths who would rather be single and frustrate away their seeds, than even consider a spouse from any other sub group other than their own.

such steep is our imbedded caste feelings. i do not call it prejudice, but i would call it a deep held faith, not necessarily good for the community. again, i do not even want to venture into the politcal world, but more in our own social survival mode of numbers.

for when a community does not grow, it shrinks. and finallly shrinks to extinction. this imbedded caste feeling, along with low birthrates, high emigration is the doomcall for the census of the tamil brahmins - all in a few generations.

btw, MK's one daughter in law, is married to a dalit. forget which one. the wedding was conducted in the same manner as his other sons - self respect mode. but that is neither here nor there.
 
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saidevo

Well-known member
namaste shrI Kunjuppu.

You said in your post no.4:
all this is only at the street level. it is when one enters the household, that even today, how many of us entertain knowingly dalit friends. is it not a habit among many to have separate tumblers for maids?
*****

I don't think such private/personal things are an issue: in many homes, each member of the family has a separate plate to eat, a separate pillow/bed to sleep, separate soaps and so on. Where a parent or grandparent is orthodox, he/she has his/her own maDi/AchAra, which cannot be faulted. The point is how the housemaid is treated, if she is given a cup of coffee at all, paid reasonably well, and invited to at least large-scale family functions.

If the street level courtesies are to be extended to the house level, many politicians, actors, sportsmen and other celebrities will be guity of the way they treat their servants, maids, assistants and fans.

You said:
btw, MK's one daughter in law, is married to a dalit. forget which one.
*****

I don't get the meaning: As per MK's family-tree at M.Karunanidhi’s family tree | Praveen Kumar

and the news at
The big and mighty Karuna family - dnaindia.com

MK--Padmavathy: son MK Muthu (wife's name?)
MK--Dayalu Ammal: 3 sons MK Azagiri--Gandhi, MK Stalin--Durgadevi, Tamilarasu--Mohana; one daughter Selvi--Murasoli Selvam
MK--Rajathi: one daughter Kanimozhi--Aravindan

so, which DIL are you referring to?

Incidentally, Wikipedia reports that MK was named Dakshinamurthi at birth, which he changed to Karunanidhi 'after being indoctrinated into Dravidian ideology':
M. Karunanidhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
M.Karunanidhi’s family tree | Praveen Kumar

This is news to me--and both his names are pure SaMskrta names!
 
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saidevo

Well-known member
namaste.

Folks, just think about why Brahmnical institutions cannot openly criticize this:
The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu: Aged Dalit couple attacked for trying to participate in auction

How horrible! At least let me criticize this event. Only that I am waiting for a report of involvement of a brahmin among the caste Hindus who attacked the aged Dalit dampati, so I can pounce on him: "Hey, how can you as a brahmin attack a Dalit? What are you going to do with buying a tamarind tree? To climb over it and see if any brahma-rAkShas is hiding there? kulaththaik keDukka vandha kODArik kAmbE!--the axe handle that came to sully the caste! You thought your pATTan Manu would come to your rescue?"

On a serious note, the government should take immediate, stern and deterrent steps to prevent such incidents in future. But what would happen practically is that such incidents will be forgotton very soon. In worse cases, the government would set up a committee, whose member(s) would eat out of the taxpayer's money and submit a report at leisure, and then the government would sit on it.

If the political parties and the government are serious about preventing such harassments, they should set up a free legal aid cell so the affected Dalit can immediately complain, and a Dalit court to expedite decision on such cases.
 
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sapthajihva

Active member
Folks, just think about why Brahmnical institutions cannot openly criticize this:

The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu : Aged Dalit couple attacked for trying to participate in auction

peace ....
Why should they?

You are seeing anything and everything via your coloured vision - that of caste discrimination (similar to the media in TN).

------------------------------------------------------------

You take the first opportunity to criticize brahmins... but on the same note, you wantonly omit the fact, that none of the dalits, in the present scenario, make a conscious effort to enlighten themselves.

The dalits dont mind being at the bottom of the social hierarchy as long as the can eke out material benefits out of the same.

The dalit cries foul at the caste system, because that gives him the fuel for his spirited mission to achieve some benefits.

He cries foul because he sees that in this politically motivated setup, he is robbed of his 'share' by the other 'backwards'...

Neither does he grow up socially nor economically. Those that have emerged are merely the pawns of a much vicious setup that preys on brahmins and brahminhood. Ambedkar probably had done the greatest mistake of his time when he started misinterpreting the scriptures. The ruse was picked up easily and riding on the wave, the BCs and OBCs have crippled the society with a grandiose vision of a purported perfect society.

The kshatriyas and vysyas have benefitted by making the brahmin and the shudra vie at each other. The K and V are happy as long as the dalit/harijan abuse the brahmin and his methods, but the moment it turns upon them, the fury unleashes...

When the brahmin is abused, he has to repent; when the OBC is abused, even then the brahmin has to repent... !!!

I suppose, this is true secularism - make the brahmin and brahminism responsible for everything....
 

Nara

Well-known member
Dear Saptha, we are at it again, the next round :)

......
You are seeing anything and everything via your coloured vision ..

Look at the title of this thread, I did not start this thread, did I? In the context of this thread I am not supposed to point out what I did, why?

...You take the first opportunity to criticize brahmins...
Look Saptha, this is a TB forum, I was born into the Brahamana caste, so who else am I supposed talk about? As I have noted above, this thread is about Brahmanas and Dalits and I did not start this thread.


....
The kshatriyas and vysyas have benefitted by making the brahmin and the shudra vie at each other. The K and V are happy as long as the dalit/harijan abuse the brahmin and his methods, but the moment it turns upon them, the fury unleashes...
See, this is what BRA was talking about, the varna system pits one group against another. I also find your views about Dalits quite unfortunate.

Cheers!
 

nachi naga

Well-known member
sapthajihva
Look Saptha, this is a TB forum, I was born into the Brahamana caste, so who else am I supposed talk about? As I have noted above, this thread is about Brahmanas and Dalits and I did not start this thread.

This is the statement from an avowed agnostic/atheist and an american to boot.Just becoz he was born into a brahmana family,isn't he old enuff with common sense NOW,to stop claiming it?as he has changed his views of brahmanas or NO?double standards smacks with rationalistic jingoism,such warts are a neccessary evil,in society,i guess!!
 
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Raghy

Well-known member
Sri.Nara said to Sri.Sapthajhiva :-

Look Saptha, this is a TB forum, I was born into the Brahamana caste, so who else am I supposed talk about? As I have noted above, this thread is about Brahmanas and Dalits and I did not start this thread.
If Nara wants to critisice Tamil Brahmins, then he should speak his mind where Tamil Brahmins frequent. There is no use in speking in critical of Tamil Brahmins in a science forum or a scuba diver's forum. Whether Sri.Nara likes it or not, he was born in a brahmin family and stuck with the brahmin caste. Period. Personally if I don't like what Sri.Nara says, then, I gather my evidences against his statements and present them for discussion; I have sent him packing in couple of instances. Many members do not like Sri.Nara's views; do not like his statements; do not like his presentation. I can see that. Then, those members should debate with him. But, instead of engaging in a debate, this is what Sri.Nachi Naga wrote in response to Sri.Nara's above quoted statement :-

This is the statement from an avowed agnostic/atheist and an american to boot.Just becoz he was born into a brahmana family,isn't he old enuff with common sense NOW,to stop claiming it?as he has changed his views of brahmanas or NO?double standards smacks with rationalistic jingoism,such warts are a neccessary evil,in society,i guess!!
Just an unadultered personal attack. Wow!

Sri.Nachi Naga,

An agnostic or atheist need not be avowed. Only the religious followers have to avow their suopport to the faith. A brahmin avow at the time of upanayanam and becomes a 'twice born'.

American to boot? What America has to anything with this? Are you trying to say all the Americans are agnostic or atheists? I feel like laughing, thinking about the 'Bible Belt'. By the way, about 50% America is contained within the Bible Belt. India too has her fair share of agnostic or atheists.

ust becoz he was born into a brahmana family,isn't he old enuff with common sense NOW,to stop claiming it?as he has changed his views of brahmanas or NO?
Have you ever seen Sri.Nara trying to get any benefit anywhere by virtue of his caste after he became an agnostic/athiest? என்னமோ சுலபமா தரிசனம் பண்றதுக்கு, திருமண் போட்டுண்டு ஜீயர் பின்னாலே போனதை பார்த்த மாதிரி பேசறீரே? Brahmin caste is forced on him by birth; although he has the right to use it or abuse it as he wishes, he does not abuse it by joining the brahmins only when it suits him.

double standards smacks with rationalistic jingoism
I must admit, I was laughing when I read this. What the hell is rationlistic jingoism? It really means rationalistic nationalism!...Doesn't make any sense.

such warts are a neccessary evil,in society,i guess!!
Is Sri.Nara an evil imprefection or a flaw in a society? Which society are you talking about? Brahmin society? Indian society? So, what are you going to do? remove the imperfection?

What is your problem? In one post, you are talking ill about all the Iyengars across the board; you talk ill about Sri.Nara directly or indirectly. This is the second time I am raising this same issue with you.

If you can debate with Sri.Nara, then do it.

Cheers!
 
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OP
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saidevo

Well-known member
Can't we have a dispassionate discussion about issues that are vital to Hindus and brahmins? I wonder why members need to fight emotionally like naughty children. I request Admin and Moderators to move all posts that don't relate to the OP and the thread title to a separtely created thread for fights, which can perhaps be named 'nIyA nAnA?' Since we Hindus have a custom to respect age, I would also suggest Admin to display the age of the members in the posts, so there could be some improvement in toning down emotions.
 
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Raghy

Well-known member
Sri.Saidevo,

....Since we Hindus have a custom to respect age

Greetings. I respect everyone irrespective of their age. I have over 500 posts here to prove that. I was polite in my messages. Look at the kind of reply I received. Kindly don't group all the members under the same category, please. Anyone can read the messages and judge for themselves. Just because few members are agnostic/atheists does not mean they are fair game. This is an interesting situation indeed.

Cheers!
 

nachi naga

Well-known member
sairam saidevo.with all due respects to you,kindly don't bring age,as then we will stunt people expressing their opinions.if someone takes it personal,then one needs to grow up,after all in a global tamil brahmin website,all kinds of expression do creep in.its not 'nia nana' but oppositie views being expressed,rather passionately.but owing to different background,age,culture,upbringing,society - a profiling of tamizh brahmanas has been done.and if any action,that a tamizh brahmana is in opposition,to a profiled view,then tsk tsk tch tch starts.is there any rule,that one shud adhere,as to how a tamizh brahmin,shud be or shud not be,and that too in this day and age?my apologies to you,if i have inadvertently hurt your sentiments in your thread,abut brahmanas and dalits,which to tag people as caste is going on,when the lord krishna clearly states its four personalities traits in a being.hopefully more dalits will be brahmanas and more brahmanas will be dalits and more shudras will be vaishyas and more vaishyas will be shudras and life will go on in india like this forever,unless indians are converted to sikhism
 

nachi naga

Well-known member
raghy
If you can debate with Sri.Nara, then do it.

what's there to debate?a view which say's it cannot feel divinity,amongst creation's of god? or a vaishanava who will shun all other hindu triumvirate with the exception of lord visnu?in fact what acharya ramanujar preached,and the vaishnavas who live today,are in an exclusivity,is in total contrast.lord shiva being ridiculed is certainly unbecoming behaviour of vaishnavas.do any vaishnavas visit a lord shiva temple?even today?or respect lord shiva?and yet a transparent divide if talked is uppity.vaishnava litreature projects lord brahma from the nabhi of lord vishnu,whereas the truth is lord brahma lord vishnu lord shiva are the trinity forces governing the universe via their shakthi roopinis namely saraswathi maha lakshmi and maha shakthi.so,who is dividing us hindus?is the question all hindus shud ask?and figure out for future generations to understand in totality the truth!
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
raghy


what's there to debate?a view which say's it cannot feel divinity,amongst creation's of god? or a vaishanava who will shun all other hindu triumvirate with the exception of lord visnu?in fact what acharya ramanujar preached,and the vaishnavas who live today,are in an exclusivity,is in total contrast.lord shiva being ridiculed is certainly unbecoming behaviour of vaishnavas.do any vaishnavas visit a lord shiva temple?even today?or respect lord shiva?and yet a transparent divide if talked is uppity.vaishnava litreature projects lord brahma from the nabhi of lord vishnu,whereas the truth is lord brahma lord vishnu lord shiva are the trinity forces governing the universe via their shakthi roopinis namely saraswathi maha lakshmi and maha shakthi.so,who is dividing us hindus?is the question all hindus shud ask?and figure out for future generations to understand in totality the truth!

:yo:

My major concern from my child hood, from the day one I could come to know the existence of Vaishnavaties...

The differences between Iyers and Iyengars would ever be, unless we educated and broad minded folks of today's era take any proactive steps sincerely towards uniting each other. Otherwise the variations would ever be an interesting point of discussions and we would end up offending each other, as each of us would be only focused on substantiating our claims.
 

renuka

Well-known member
dear all...

I will tell you guys a true story i read in a magazine in India..there was an Iyengar guy married to an Iyer girl (love marriage)..
He was a very stauch iyengar who wont step foot in a Shiva temple..once his iyer wife went to a Shiva temple to pray..she asked him to come into the temple..He flatly refused and said that even if he dies he wont enter the temple..
After a while a bull along the road started to go on a raging rampage and started chasing this iyengar..he ran for his life and was forced to run into the temple and ran towards his wife..the bull did not come into the temple..
from that day onwards he started going to all temples whether a Vishnu or Shiva temple..

So dear all..dont fight..
just click on this..it cant go wrong..

YouTube - Om Purnamadah Purnamidam
 

nachi naga

Well-known member
:yo:

My major concern from my child hood, from the day one I could come to know the existence of Vaishnavaties...

The differences between Iyers and Iyengars would ever be, unless we educated and broad minded folks of today's era take any proactive steps sincerely towards uniting each other. Otherwise the variations would ever be an interesting point of discussions and we would end up offending each other, as each of us would be only focused on substantiating our claims.

ravi saar

iyer and ayyangar is based on ishta devata principle,imho.but the snooty behaviour of sv,v are just incorrigible.All three are equal is my point,and snooty snobbish behaviour shud be curtailed.:happy: and not only that,even amongst vaishnavas,there is this vadagalai -thenkalai divide,as if strecthing the namam or u-turning the namam,will allow free pass to vaikundam,to me its all gundum.all are equal,thats the truth.sanathana dharma teaches this simple truth.
 
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