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Why the Brahmins & Dalits should unite

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vgane

Well-known member
This is an article by a Dalit activist....Sounds relevant in Tamilnadu where TB's are feeling crushed by Dravidian hegemony and organized anti Brahmin pogrom without any blood letting and getting away with the annihilation by the Big River!!

Tuesday, 1 March 2016

Dalits and Brahmins should unite - especially in the southern states like Tamil Nadu


This might be an unpopular topic to write on, and one that my fellow Dalits would disagree with, but one that I felt should be written. Brahmins and Dalits in South India (especially Tamil Nadu) must unite. Why is this important? I have tried to outline why a Brahmin Dalit unity is very very important in today’s context. That is not just the way forward, but how it should have been. I hope to not offend any readers whichever caste they might be from. We all would need to strive for a casteless society but certain facts must be stated. Also, I do talk about caste Hindus here just as an historical context but there could be caste Christians as well discriminating against us Dalits.


So, why do I feel Brahmins and Dalits need to unite?

Personal Experience

As a Tamil Dalit, my friends who were Brahmin Iyers were the only ones who did NOT question my caste. Everyone else, like the Thevars and Mudaliars criticized the Dalits without knowing which caste I belonged to. Later, they tried to casually talk behind our Brahmin friends’ backs, saying things like “Oh those brahmins propagated caste”. This is a typical pattern used by non-Brahmin caste Hindus and every Dalit should be cautious not to fall into this trap.


It is not hard to reverse this interpolation into history. Probably as some say (and I don’t care much for religious texts of any faith) the caste was based on occupation not birth. The keepers of the rituals were Brahmins but the powerful ones were the ruling, and business castes. It is very easy to imagine the timid Brahmins being threatened by these powerful ruling castes to change this narrative into one of birth. I use timid not in a negative way but only to mean that Brahmins are not proud of aggression, a trait that I see to this day.


Somehow, I am not convinced that the entire caste Hindu population were asked to take up casteism by the Brahmins who still are merely a 3% of the population. The Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are an intelligent bunch. Do you think they would blindly listen to a minority? For a poor priest, it does not matter if a Dalit gives him a rupee or a Devar gives him a rupee. Caste matters however for a powerful landowner who works in the land for cheap. An unending supply of cheap bonded labor is what they needed.


Take a look at caste based violence perpetrated against the Dalits. Vitriolic attacks usually come from the non-brahmin castes. Devars, Vanniyars and Gounders have taken up the mantle to attack Dalits. The Brahmins on the other hand rarely (if at all) resort to violence. I have personally seen Brahmins married into Arundhathiyar families and coexisting peacefully. I have a friend married to a Brahmin woman and the family rallies around him like he is their own. Again, these are personal examples and cannot be applied to all situations.

History

There have been many Brahmins supportive of the Dalit cause once they have realized the folly of their ways. A few examples:

- Vaidyanatha Iyer led the Tamil Nadu Harijana Sabha and was instrumental in the temple entry movement (which again was hijacked by caste Hindus)

- Ramanujacharya, another brahmin was instrumental in trying to eradicate caste. Now, Dravidian leaders pen serials in praise of him.

- Bharathiar - reviled by nearly everyone had scant respect for people who practiced casteism.

- Adi Sankara himself is said to have recognized the folly of caste when Shiva came to him in the form of a beggar

I can also take a list of people from the North like Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Ishwar Chandra Vidhyasagar but that would be unnecessary.

The British invasion happened and the Brahmins worked for the British along with the caste Hindus and that became their undoing. The British in a bid to divide bought caste into highlight and was lapped up by the caste Hindus.

When the above mentioned Brahmins started realising their folly and began expressing their solidarity with Dalits the Dravidian movement arrived. The non-brahmin upper caste came up with an idea to unite the masses for a common cause - Pick the population who are just 3% and heap the blame on them. Also, they themselves categorized their communities as BC, OBC etc. Their modus operandi - we might have been the ruling class but now we are BC, OBC. How this is palatable in today’s societies is beyond comprehension.


These Dravidian groups also had a Tamil national identity. Again, Dalits and Brahmins were left out of this. A Sakkiliyar would be categorized as Telugu and for no reason at all Brahmins were regarded as Sanskrit speakers in spite of them being extremely tied to Tamil as their mother tongue - (e.g. UV Swaminatha Iyer etc). You could never ask a Naicker where he was from, or a Mudaliar if he was a Kerala Mudali. If you are thinking the ties between a Tamil Naicker and their counterparts in Andhra are tenuous you are right. So are the ties between Brahmin/Dalits and their counterparts in the other states.


So my fellow Dalits be very very wary of this Brahmin baiting by non-Brahmin caste Hindus.

Author: Sagaran
http://invisibledalit.blogspot.in/2016/08/dalits-and-brahmins-should-unite.html
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
This is an article by a Dalit activist....Sounds relevant in Tamilnadu where TB's are feeling crushed by Dravidian hegemony and organized anti Brahmin pogrom without any blood letting and getting away with the annihilation by the Big River!!

Tuesday, 1 March 2016

Dalits and Brahmins should unite - especially in the southern states like Tamil Nadu


This might be an unpopular topic to write on, and one that my fellow Dalits would disagree with, but one that I felt should be written. Brahmins and Dalits in South India (especially Tamil Nadu) must unite. Why is this important? I have tried to outline why a Brahmin Dalit unity is very very important in today’s context. That is not just the way forward, but how it should have been. I hope to not offend any readers whichever caste they might be from. We all would need to strive for a casteless society but certain facts must be stated. Also, I do talk about caste Hindus here just as an historical context but there could be caste Christians as well discriminating against us Dalits.


So, why do I feel Brahmins and Dalits need to unite?

Personal Experience

As a Tamil Dalit, my friends who were Brahmin Iyers were the only ones who did NOT question my caste. Everyone else, like the Thevars and Mudaliars criticized the Dalits without knowing which caste I belonged to. Later, they tried to casually talk behind our Brahmin friends’ backs, saying things like “Oh those brahmins propagated caste”. This is a typical pattern used by non-Brahmin caste Hindus and every Dalit should be cautious not to fall into this trap.


It is not hard to reverse this interpolation into history. Probably as some say (and I don’t care much for religious texts of any faith) the caste was based on occupation not birth. The keepers of the rituals were Brahmins but the powerful ones were the ruling, and business castes. It is very easy to imagine the timid Brahmins being threatened by these powerful ruling castes to change this narrative into one of birth. I use timid not in a negative way but only to mean that Brahmins are not proud of aggression, a trait that I see to this day.


Somehow, I am not convinced that the entire caste Hindu population were asked to take up casteism by the Brahmins who still are merely a 3% of the population. The Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are an intelligent bunch. Do you think they would blindly listen to a minority? For a poor priest, it does not matter if a Dalit gives him a rupee or a Devar gives him a rupee. Caste matters however for a powerful landowner who works in the land for cheap. An unending supply of cheap bonded labor is what they needed.


Take a look at caste based violence perpetrated against the Dalits. Vitriolic attacks usually come from the non-brahmin castes. Devars, Vanniyars and Gounders have taken up the mantle to attack Dalits. The Brahmins on the other hand rarely (if at all) resort to violence. I have personally seen Brahmins married into Arundhathiyar families and coexisting peacefully. I have a friend married to a Brahmin woman and the family rallies around him like he is their own. Again, these are personal examples and cannot be applied to all situations.

History

There have been many Brahmins supportive of the Dalit cause once they have realized the folly of their ways. A few examples:

- Vaidyanatha Iyer led the Tamil Nadu Harijana Sabha and was instrumental in the temple entry movement (which again was hijacked by caste Hindus)

- Ramanujacharya, another brahmin was instrumental in trying to eradicate caste. Now, Dravidian leaders pen serials in praise of him.

- Bharathiar - reviled by nearly everyone had scant respect for people who practiced casteism.

- Adi Sankara himself is said to have recognized the folly of caste when Shiva came to him in the form of a beggar

I can also take a list of people from the North like Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Ishwar Chandra Vidhyasagar but that would be unnecessary.

The British invasion happened and the Brahmins worked for the British along with the caste Hindus and that became their undoing. The British in a bid to divide bought caste into highlight and was lapped up by the caste Hindus.

When the above mentioned Brahmins started realising their folly and began expressing their solidarity with Dalits the Dravidian movement arrived. The non-brahmin upper caste came up with an idea to unite the masses for a common cause - Pick the population who are just 3% and heap the blame on them. Also, they themselves categorized their communities as BC, OBC etc. Their modus operandi - we might have been the ruling class but now we are BC, OBC. How this is palatable in today’s societies is beyond comprehension.


These Dravidian groups also had a Tamil national identity. Again, Dalits and Brahmins were left out of this. A Sakkiliyar would be categorized as Telugu and for no reason at all Brahmins were regarded as Sanskrit speakers in spite of them being extremely tied to Tamil as their mother tongue - (e.g. UV Swaminatha Iyer etc). You could never ask a Naicker where he was from, or a Mudaliar if he was a Kerala Mudali. If you are thinking the ties between a Tamil Naicker and their counterparts in Andhra are tenuous you are right. So are the ties between Brahmin/Dalits and their counterparts in the other states.


So my fellow Dalits be very very wary of this Brahmin baiting by non-Brahmin caste Hindus.

Author: Sagaran
http://invisibledalit.blogspot.in/2016/08/dalits-and-brahmins-should-unite.html

Insha Allah(If God Wills)
 

zebra16

Well-known member
This is an article by a Dalit activist....Sounds relevant in Tamilnadu where TB's are feeling crushed by Dravidian hegemony and organized anti Brahmin pogrom without any blood letting and getting away with the annihilation by the Big River!!

Tuesday, 1 March 2016

Dalits and Brahmins should unite - especially in the southern states like Tamil Nadu


This might be an unpopular topic to write on, and one that my fellow Dalits would disagree with, but one that I felt should be written. Brahmins and Dalits in South India (especially Tamil Nadu) must unite. Why is this important? I have tried to outline why a Brahmin Dalit unity is very very important in today’s context. That is not just the way forward, but how it should have been. I hope to not offend any readers whichever caste they might be from. We all would need to strive for a casteless society but certain facts must be stated. Also, I do talk about caste Hindus here just as an historical context but there could be caste Christians as well discriminating against us Dalits.


So, why do I feel Brahmins and Dalits need to unite?

Personal Experience

As a Tamil Dalit, my friends who were Brahmin Iyers were the only ones who did NOT question my caste. Everyone else, like the Thevars and Mudaliars criticized the Dalits without knowing which caste I belonged to. Later, they tried to casually talk behind our Brahmin friends’ backs, saying things like “Oh those brahmins propagated caste”. This is a typical pattern used by non-Brahmin caste Hindus and every Dalit should be cautious not to fall into this trap.


It is not hard to reverse this interpolation into history. Probably as some say (and I don’t care much for religious texts of any faith) the caste was based on occupation not birth. The keepers of the rituals were Brahmins but the powerful ones were the ruling, and business castes. It is very easy to imagine the timid Brahmins being threatened by these powerful ruling castes to change this narrative into one of birth. I use timid not in a negative way but only to mean that Brahmins are not proud of aggression, a trait that I see to this day.


Somehow, I am not convinced that the entire caste Hindu population were asked to take up casteism by the Brahmins who still are merely a 3% of the population. The Kshatriyas and Vaishyas are an intelligent bunch. Do you think they would blindly listen to a minority? For a poor priest, it does not matter if a Dalit gives him a rupee or a Devar gives him a rupee. Caste matters however for a powerful landowner who works in the land for cheap. An unending supply of cheap bonded labor is what they needed.


Take a look at caste based violence perpetrated against the Dalits. Vitriolic attacks usually come from the non-brahmin castes. Devars, Vanniyars and Gounders have taken up the mantle to attack Dalits. The Brahmins on the other hand rarely (if at all) resort to violence. I have personally seen Brahmins married into Arundhathiyar families and coexisting peacefully. I have a friend married to a Brahmin woman and the family rallies around him like he is their own. Again, these are personal examples and cannot be applied to all situations.

History

There have been many Brahmins supportive of the Dalit cause once they have realized the folly of their ways. A few examples:

- Vaidyanatha Iyer led the Tamil Nadu Harijana Sabha and was instrumental in the temple entry movement (which again was hijacked by caste Hindus)

- Ramanujacharya, another brahmin was instrumental in trying to eradicate caste. Now, Dravidian leaders pen serials in praise of him.

- Bharathiar - reviled by nearly everyone had scant respect for people who practiced casteism.

- Adi Sankara himself is said to have recognized the folly of caste when Shiva came to him in the form of a beggar

I can also take a list of people from the North like Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Ishwar Chandra Vidhyasagar but that would be unnecessary.

The British invasion happened and the Brahmins worked for the British along with the caste Hindus and that became their undoing. The British in a bid to divide bought caste into highlight and was lapped up by the caste Hindus.

When the above mentioned Brahmins started realising their folly and began expressing their solidarity with Dalits the Dravidian movement arrived. The non-brahmin upper caste came up with an idea to unite the masses for a common cause - Pick the population who are just 3% and heap the blame on them. Also, they themselves categorized their communities as BC, OBC etc. Their modus operandi - we might have been the ruling class but now we are BC, OBC. How this is palatable in today’s societies is beyond comprehension.


These Dravidian groups also had a Tamil national identity. Again, Dalits and Brahmins were left out of this. A Sakkiliyar would be categorized as Telugu and for no reason at all Brahmins were regarded as Sanskrit speakers in spite of them being extremely tied to Tamil as their mother tongue - (e.g. UV Swaminatha Iyer etc). You could never ask a Naicker where he was from, or a Mudaliar if he was a Kerala Mudali. If you are thinking the ties between a Tamil Naicker and their counterparts in Andhra are tenuous you are right. So are the ties between Brahmin/Dalits and their counterparts in the other states.


So my fellow Dalits be very very wary of this Brahmin baiting by non-Brahmin caste Hindus.

Author: Sagaran
http://invisibledalit.blogspot.in/2016/08/dalits-and-brahmins-should-unite.html

This sort of ganging up of two varNas against others has been happening since vedic times.

Here is the vedic hymn/phrase which captures the idea:

"brahma sanDattam tan mE jinvatam
kshattram sanDattam tan mE jinvatam
iSam sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
Urjam sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
rayim sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
puStim sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
prajAm sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
paSUn sanDattam tan mE jinvatam"

taittiriya krSna yajurvedam - brAhmanam - 1.1.1

Our resident samskrutam expert, Dr. Renuka may, if she feels so, kindly provide English translation of the above hymn for the benefit of other members.

There are also too many instances of vaiSyas & fourth varNa ganging up against the other two; kshatriyAs and vaiSyas coming together to checkmate the other two etc.

I am now too matured to enter into the caste cauldron in our forum once again. If you read the vedAs in totality, none of the varNas come out totally blemishless, including the presently Government preferred varNa.

All varNas are doing their own "kichdi pakOing". The more we progress, the near we get to where we originally started with.
 
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athimber

Active member
Cast differentiation was dying a slow death at least in Soutnern part of India till mid 80s. Even in Tamil Nadu, the Brahmins were leading reasonably peaceful life, despite the Dravidian call for brahmin boycott etc. It took a U turn post implementation of Mandal Commission report and gradually took shape of the present ugly condition. At present not only in TN, every other state, there is gross discrimination in the name of cast. Only thing is, in certain state like Tamil nadu, Brahmins are at the receiving end, where as in states like UP, it is the otherway around. Both are equally bad for the welfare of the people. Unity I think, is not possible unless and until mutual trust is created between these sects and for that the elders of all the communities should come forward.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Preferential treatments will be there till government supports it or tolerates it.
It has nothing to do with Religion, Caste or regions.
The people who get the benefits enjoy it. The people who do not get the benefits cry about it. Till they also get it.
 

tbs

Well-known member
hi

some kind of new theory for new situation....trying is good for politics....varna sangara has to happen.....according to bhagavad gita...

who knows?.....cross breads children can lead next generation politics...
 
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prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
I do not believe in caste politics.
The thread does not make any sense.
Yes, the Brahmins should join anyone willing to accept them as they are the powerless one (at least in Tamil Nadu).
The Dalits have all the advantage provided to them in the constitution and the vote bank politics.
It would be like saying we should combine your puffed rice, with my chaff, then we can share it. Then blow the chaff and eat the rice.

Where is there any advantage for the Dalit? Or we assumed that they will not notice it.
At least Sudama was friends with Krishna in his gurukula days. So Krishna can reciprocate now, what did the Brahmins do for the Dalits, they should reciprocate them?
 
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tks

Well-known member
Sri Vgane,

Thanks for sharing that blog in your opening post.

It is well written.

There is a systematic discrimination of those with Brahmin tag in many parts of India. I do not know about cities but I have known people who are not provided equal opportunities.

To fight discrimination jointly with others that are oppressed make sense.

It is good for India, and for peace in the region from external intervention as well.

Rajiv Malhotra who has done extensive research and published a series of books with his findings still remain unchallenged. The oppression of Dalits in India is being exploited by outside India forces for their nefarious objectives of spreading their religion (with the goal of sucking up money eventually from hard working lower class people).

Regarding Dalit Freedom Network, here is an excerpt from an interview of Rajiv Malhotra.

"Regarding the groups you have named, I oppose their politicalprojects and my book exposés what they are up to. DFN (with two directors
from OM) uses the Dalit face to hide that it is a hardcore operational wing
of American right-wing agendas in India. The Dalit label gives it the
emotional appeal and aura of legitimacy to intervene in India’s affairs. DFN
brings speakers and activists from India to testify before US government
commissions, policy think-tanks and churches, with the explicit goal of
promoting US intervention in India (Breaking India, pages 222-223).


d) What most of my American Christian friends are shocked to learn is
that the kind of Christianity being propagated in India is often similar to
the radical, medieval Christianity that was based on performing “miracles”
and on hate speech. Most modern Christians in USA have rejected that
Christianity, but the obsession for numerical growth in Christian population
has become the evangelical obsession. The sole focus is on numbers, not
quality or genuine religiosity."

Overall fighting discrimination and preventing outside forces from looting India, it is necessary to fight.
Brahmins in India must realize that it is time to join hands with so called Dalits. Joining hands would be to affect the vote bank politics and to mutually educate each others. There can be respectful coordination and alliance to fight caste discriminators.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Brahmins in India must realize that it is time to join hands with so called Dalits. Joining hands would be to affect the vote bank politics and to mutually educate each others. There can be respectful coordination and alliance to fight caste discriminators.

Joining hands to make use of each other will not do any good in the long run.

Its the mindset of everyone that needs to change..from Brahmins..to Middle Caste to so called Dalits.

This mentality of trying to get at each other..viewing each other with suspicion..pride..prejudice..resorting to violence just echoes a mindset that can not respect another human being and accepting diversity in creation.

If one join hands for mutual benefit once targets are reached..then these very same groups that joined hands would fight with each other again and they would repeat the same cycle to find another ally.

One can remain totally alone if one has principles to Live and Let Love.

Without that even uniting with alien forces from another galaxy or universe is of no use.
 
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F

Falcon

Guest
Joining hands to make use of each other will not do any good in the long run.

Its the mindset of everyone that needs to change..from Brahmins..to Middle Caste to so called Dalits.

This mentality of trying to get at each other..viewing each other with suspicion..pride..prejudice..resorting to violence just echoes a mindset that can not respect another human being and accepting diversity in creation.

If one join hands for mutual benefit once targets are reached..then these very same groups that joined hands would fight with each other again and they would repeat the same cycle to find another ally.

One can remain totally alone if one has principles to Live and Let Love.

Without that even uniting with alien forces from another galaxy or universe is of no use.


This sounds good.

Instead, as suggested, we can stay alone totally embracing our principles and put down our lives like that of pandits of Kashmir.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
"brahma sanDattam tan mE jinvatam
kshattram sanDattam tan mE jinvatam
iSam sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
Urjam sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
rayim sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
puStim sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
prajAm sanDattam tAn mE jinvatam
paSUn sanDattam tan mE jinvatam"

taittiriya krSna yajurvedam - brAhmanam - 1.1.1

Our resident samskrutam expert, Dr. Renuka may, if she feels so, kindly provide English translation of the above hymn for the benefit of other members.

.

LOL!

I am not expert..and I am not able to provide the full translation for this stanza.
Could you furnish full translation?
Vedic Sanskrit does differ from Classical Sanskrit hence I am not really able to decipher everything.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
This sounds good.

Instead, as suggested, we can stay alone totally embracing our principles and put down our lives like that of pandits of Kashmir.

Kashmir Pandits are staying in a place where they are having another religion target them.

TBs in TN are not being killed by anyone.

So the comparison is not accurate.
 
F

Falcon

Guest
Kashmir Pandits are staying in a place where they are having another religion target them.

TBs in TN are not being killed by anyone.

So the comparison is not accurate.


Without knowing the ground reality you come here talk about accurate, comparison, etc

Please just go through my postings of yesterday in this Forum which will speak volume as to which is accurate and ground reality.... may be a tip of the iceberg


https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=35929&page=5&p=386490#post386490
 
Last edited by a moderator:

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Without knowing the ground reality you come here talk about accurate, comparison, etc

Please just go through my postings of yesterday in this Forum which will speak volume as to which is accurate and ground reality.... may be a tip of the iceberg


https://www.tamilbrahmins.com/showthread.php?t=35929&page=5&p=386490#post386490

Yes...I come here and talk just like how you too come here and talk...the difference being I talk in one username but you are Bahuda Vadanti.

Reality is subject to interpretation.
 
F

Falcon

Guest
Yes...I come here and talk just like how you too come here and talk...the difference being I talk in one username but you are Bahuda Vadanti.

Reality is subject to interpretation.

And there is State Crime Record Bureau to furnish statistics with facts and figures..

One cannot just sweep away all the information as Bahuda Vadanti....and get away under the pretext of interpretation.

Now you are free to continue your....
 
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prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
Let us analyze the motive behind the OP.
If it was written from the perspective of getting some advantage to the Brahmin community in Tamil Nadu, it may be a politically right thing. But that is one sided and does not have any advantage to others (than brahmins). So it is dead on arrival.

From the Dalits perspective, they can add numbers for their cause, and once their cause is achieved then what? (Renukaji's point).

From the Indian perspective, people of all religion, all caste, and all regions must cooperate to create a strong India.
 
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